OK rather than hijacking another thread I thought I would start a license discussion.
So if you buy a 4x4 and a caravan, any combination, you can hit the road without anything but a car license. But if you buy a motorhome/campervan and it's over 4.5t then you have to have a endorsed license.
So where's the logic? I would argue that an 8ton motorhome is easier/safer to drive than a caravan combination. Over 4.5t and you have to pull into the scales. 4x4 and a Looooonngg caravan don't have to pull into scales. A motorhome over 4.5t pulls into scales and is subject to inspection while the over weight long 4x4 caravan combination sails straight past.
Think of all the news items we see about caravan accidents. How many motorhome crashes do we see. Yes there are more caravans.
So should anyone be able to hit the road with no experience in their new 4x4 and caravan without some form of tests? Folks in their late 70's early 80's can be behind the wheel of these rigs. As long as their doctor says they can drive then they can drive. Including big caravan combinations.
Let the arguments begin.
Gundog said
11:55 AM Jan 15, 2021
Over time this subject has been done to death so heres my response, It wouldnt effect me as I have a HC Licence.
So where do you start, in Victoria a caravan is registered as a trailer, other states register them as motor vehicles.
At what level do you want a towing endorsement, a car with a 6x4 trailer, or do we commence at any trailer that requires brakes, or do you want to start at over X weight.
The next step is the start date, will this mean everyone from a given date will have get the endorsement and all those with prior experiance will be RPL'd
How many years do you think it would take to setup and roll out training standards, licenced trainers and testers.
Its not a simple idea.
bgt said
12:08 PM Jan 15, 2021
Remember if this subject has been done to death then there must be no new readers.
Gundog you/we will never do anything if we say it's too hard. There has to be a start everywhere.
Yes I should have said in my OP. ALL trailers need an endorsement. A horse trailer can be as dangerous as a caravan or a trailer full of garden waste. Heck you have to get a motorbike license. A boat license etc etc etc.
I know about state variations. At one time I was contracted to try and bring the states together on RV towing laws. Needless to say that went no where because of some states.
Remember it's only a problem waiting for a solution.
Whenarewethere said
12:44 PM Jan 15, 2021
Fishing licence.
To the other end of the spectrum..... but maybe it's just fishing!
Some people get their licence out of a packet of cornflakes to have children!
Possum3 said
12:55 PM Jan 15, 2021
bgt wrote:
But if you buy a motorhome/campervan and it's over 4.5t then you have to have a endorsed license.
So where's the logic? I would argue that an 8ton motorhome is easier/safer to drive than a caravan combination. Over 4.5t and you have to pull into the scales. 4x4 and a Looooonngg caravan don't have to pull into scales. A motorhome over 4.5t pulls into scales and is subject to inspection while the over weight long 4x4 caravan combination sails straight past.
Heavy Vehicle inspection Stations (HVSS).
All heavy vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) greater than eight tonnes are required to enter a HVSS (except Bell, Chinderah, Pine Creek and Halfway Creek - 4.5 tonnes). These vehicles must enter a HVSS to ensure the vehicle meets safety and roadworthiness standards and that their drivers are complying with road transport laws.
Mike Harding said
01:06 PM Jan 15, 2021
I am very much against government regulations unless its *really* necessary.
However given how inherently unstable a car/caravan rig often is I do feel it would not be unreasonable to have some sort of testing requirement before people can hang a 3T or more van on the back of their vehicle.
I'd also support a maximum speed limit for towing a van; 90 or 95kph maybe? The UK does this.
Greg 1 said
01:32 PM Jan 15, 2021
I would support a one off test and endorsement for towing that demonstrates competency much like WA did with small boats.
We have a recreational skippers ticket here that required a one off demonstration of competency and a one off fee. There is no annual renewal fee.
Something similar would be a good idea and not a large cost impost.
It would mean that if you do not have prior experience then you would need to do a recognised course.
The courses though would need to have a full and proper trading syllabus, not like one of our friends did that consisted of 4 laps around a large freight yard and a bit of reversing practise. Certainly doesn't prepare you for a journey a highway speeds.
With regards speed limits for towing, WA already does that. It is 100kph with any trailer on the back. This is the same as the articulated trucks and works quite well. It is the maximum limit, not a requirement to must do, so if you wish to travel slower it's your choice. I think 100kph is a sensible pace as it allows those that want to cover large distance to do so at a reasonable pace without being silly.
In a very large state with very good wide open roads in remote areas, being able to do 100kph helps cover distance.
hako said
02:10 PM Jan 15, 2021
Any government that introduced such a licence for any type of trailer irrespective of mass would soon be sitting on the opposition benches plus the caravan and small trailer indusry would be up in arms over it.
They 'might' be able to get away with one for over 3.5 tonne.
Good Luck.
dogbox said
02:13 PM Jan 15, 2021
why not just a towing coarse to get an endorsement on your license like for motorcycles.
you require a LR license to drive a vehicle with gvm over 4.5 ton but you can drive a vehicle with a gcm of 6 ton + on standard license
limiting speed is a double edge sword i believe they tried it with trucks an found that the slower vehicles caused dangerous situations with people trying to overtake slower trucks a lack of overtaking lanes doesn't help .
road trains are restricted to 90 kph and they cause traffic congestion in areas that lack safe overtaking options
-- Edited by dogbox on Friday 15th of January 2021 02:17:47 PM
blaze said
02:34 PM Jan 15, 2021
how many people have car accidents whilst not towing, they have a license and it didnt help them. So I say no to license and yes to education
cheers
blaze
Craig1 said
02:43 PM Jan 15, 2021
x2 blaze
bgt said
02:50 PM Jan 15, 2021
I don't see it as a test as such. But rather an awareness program. The trucking industry are always trying to 'educate' drivers about how to act/drive when passing or being passed by a big rig. An endorsement? Maybe.
Yes it will be a hard sell. But only to one segment of the community. The other 95% would love it.
oldbloke said
04:16 PM Jan 15, 2021
Towing a van is IMO more hazardous than driving a small truck.
They introduced a boat licence system in Vic. Just sit a test and get the licence, although I think its changed now and a training session is included now. But could be corrected.
Could do the same for vans, perhaps over say, 2 ton. Would become an endorsement to drivers licence. Im in favour of something, just not too onerous.
As someone said, we do have a lot of regulation. Would need to be nation wide, so that makes it almost impossible to introduce.
Jaahn said
04:39 PM Jan 15, 2021
Hi While I am not in favour of more regulation and licences, I do think this is an area that needs it. All trailers are tricky and as they get up towards the weight of the towing vehicle it gets unstable. AND the wind area of a caravan is much greater than the tug to make matters worse in cross winds and B doubles passing.
So my suggestion is leave the small unbraked trailers alone but anything bigger needs an endorsment achieved by a suitable training course and some hours of experience. Designed as a useful idea not hijacked by the training companies to made a quick quid. A one off fee for the licence endorsement.
To be honest i think it would be easy to sell to the average Grey Nomad starting out. Certainly an easy sell to the rest of the driving public. AND an overall speed limit for all braked trailers of 100 seems reasonable to me too.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 15th of January 2021 04:40:45 PM
I got my NSW LR licence by attending the local motor registry about 35 years ago and filling out a form because I wanted to drive a 16 seater bus on a football club trip. No driving test, no theory test, just paid a small fee - so how does that makes me anymore competent than the next person. Things are probably a lot stricter now but lets not assume that everyone out there is competent just because they hold a certain type of licence especially those of us who can remember when getting one was a far less rigourous process.
BB
Eaglemax said
07:53 PM Jan 15, 2021
Bgt
I think it should be mandatory for anyone over 70yo to get retested to hold a vehicle license every 6 months
Peter_n_Margaret said
07:56 PM Jan 15, 2021
Eaglemax wrote:
Bgt I think it should be mandatory for anyone over 70yo to get retested to hold a vehicle license every 6 months
Some need testing every year and it would still not be enough.
Some 80 year olds are fine.
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
08:40 PM Jan 15, 2021
When one stops driving you can load up your scooter!
Just need to hook up the trailer to this.
https://youtu.be/eKVeQT0Vuow
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Friday 15th of January 2021 08:58:53 PM
As a light truck licence is required over 4.5 t gvm (Gross vehicle mass )
I think this should be changed to any GCM (gross combined mass )over 4.5 tonne
travelyounger said
06:07 AM Jan 17, 2021
bgt wrote:
OK rather than hijacking another thread I thought I would start a license discussion.
So if you buy a 4x4 and a caravan, any combination, you can hit the road without anything but a car license. But if you buy a motorhome/campervan and it's over 4.5t then you have to have a endorsed license.
So where's the logic? I would argue that an 8ton motorhome is easier/safer to drive than a caravan combination. Over 4.5t and you have to pull into the scales. 4x4 and a Looooonngg caravan don't have to pull into scales. A motorhome over 4.5t pulls into scales and is subject to inspection while the over weight long 4x4 caravan combination sails straight past.
Think of all the news items we see about caravan accidents. How many motorhome crashes do we see. Yes there are more caravans.
So should anyone be able to hit the road with no experience in their new 4x4 and caravan without some form of tests? Folks in their late 70's early 80's can be behind the wheel of these rigs. As long as their doctor says they can drive then they can drive. Including big caravan combinations.
Let the arguments begin.
Hi I have a HC license and have had many years reversing trailers and driving trucks and comparing the way they handle the roads on which we travel the caravan combination is harder to control than a truck.
There should be a towing or training coarse for rigs over a certain length or weight it might give new drivers some etiquette to others on the road especially truckers as I have had more near incidents with cowboy caravan drivers than any one else.
I also worked in a caravan park for the winter in NT and was amazed at some of the setups on the road some good some really overweight and unbalanced. The amount of vans I had to back in was staggering some had absolutely no idea how to reverse .
A coarse would be a good idea and should be made mandatory for all newbies who have a class 1 license with no experience towing or driving heavy vehicles.
Cheers
montie said
06:47 AM Jan 17, 2021
Any combination 4.5 tonnes and over should require an endorsement.
Driver training schools could be accredited to grant the endorsement.
TheHeaths said
07:27 AM Jan 17, 2021
Unfortunately, a test and licence endorsement will do little to improve everyday day driving, competence or adherence to driving rules or etiquette once it is achieved by the driver.
If it did, the roads would be much safer and friendlier places already.
There are good drivers with licences, ordinary drivers with licences, and bad drivers with licences. That will remain the same.
That said, perhaps at least some theoretical training as part of the driving licensing process may be of benefit, done as it would be before a driver has 5, 10 or maybe more years of ingraining bad habits if it becomes a later in life addition. Cover weights, vehicle dynamics and whatever else is important, I think thats the best time to train us.
Les Bishop said
07:42 AM Jan 17, 2021
It is good to see all these civic minded people with nothing better to do than sit around and propose ways to inflict more controls on there lives . If one thinks he is hard done by inflict the same controls on others who do not . As for remanding the problem by more controls . Wont happen just look at all drivers on the roads today - impatient,rude ,overtake in blind spots - hills and corners . If you want training why not at point of sale , these people know who is a newb and who isnt and why not impose you cannot pick up your new van without a deemed appropriate vehicle.
bgt said
08:37 AM Jan 17, 2021
Les Bishop so you propose that nothing be done and just let everyone do what they want? Our society is based on rules and regulations. In the vast majority of cases those rules and regulations benefit the silent majority. Well I would suggest that the silent majority want safer roads and if upsetting the noisy minority is based on "civic minded people with nothing better to do than sit around and propose ways to inflict more controls on there lives" then so be it.
travelyounger said
09:00 AM Jan 17, 2021
Les Bishop wrote:
It is good to see all these civic minded people with nothing better to do than sit around and propose ways to inflict more controls on there lives . If one thinks he is hard done by inflict the same controls on others who do not . As for remanding the problem by more controls . Wont happen just look at all drivers on the roads today - impatient,rude ,overtake in blind spots - hills and corners . If you want training why not at point of sale , these people know who is a newb and who isnt and why not impose you cannot pick up your new van without a deemed appropriate vehicle.
Ok lets put our head in the sand like you Les since when was training a control hard done by whos hard done by not sure what you mean
oldbloke said
09:05 AM Jan 17, 2021
So, there are about 1300 road deaths a year in AU.
How many involve RVs?
Wanda said
09:36 AM Jan 17, 2021
Have to agree with Les B, all the training and regulations in the worlds will NOT stop "bad", "impatient" and "don't care" attitude in Aust today. And not JUST on our roads.
We are overregulated as it is and loosing the freedoms we all grey up and enjoyed, its seems as you get older our generation see a need to change all that.
regards
Ian
PS : get over it and stop ya wihnging
dogbox said
09:55 AM Jan 17, 2021
Les Bishop wrote:
It is good to see all these civic minded people with nothing better to do than sit around and propose ways to inflict more controls on there lives . If one thinks he is hard done by inflict the same controls on others who do not . As for remanding the problem by more controls . Wont happen just look at all drivers on the roads today - impatient,rude ,overtake in blind spots - hills and corners . If you want training why not at point of sale , these people know who is a newb and who isnt and why not impose you cannot pick up your new van without a deemed appropriate vehicle.
can you imagine what it would be like if there were no rules, regulations, penalties.
when automobiles became available to the general public getting a license usually meant filling out a form as they became more common some form of test was involved to make sure the people who wanted to drive understood there were rules ect. truck licenses were the same as car licenses one size fitted all, the only restriction being age. them someone decided that trucks would be restricted length/weight various classes so that a person would have to hold a lower class license for a period of time before progressing to a higher class (learning curve) to get a drivers license today one must read the hand book (not very big) then answer a few questions just to make sure you have read the handbook (a lot don't get past this part first time ) then drive around the block ,presto they are a qualified driver, they know it all. the majority that is the end of their formal training . a lot of older people who hold truck licenses got them when they turned a certain age (different states different ages )an never had to take a test especially if they lived in the country.
could some of the people who object to some form of training for up grading of license to tow a 2- 3.5 ton trailer may be worried they might find their skills lacking?
drive a >4.5 GVM vehicle license upgrade required ---- drive GCM 6 ton no upgrade
OK rather than hijacking another thread I thought I would start a license discussion.
So if you buy a 4x4 and a caravan, any combination, you can hit the road without anything but a car license. But if you buy a motorhome/campervan and it's over 4.5t then you have to have a endorsed license.
So where's the logic? I would argue that an 8ton motorhome is easier/safer to drive than a caravan combination. Over 4.5t and you have to pull into the scales. 4x4 and a Looooonngg caravan don't have to pull into scales. A motorhome over 4.5t pulls into scales and is subject to inspection while the over weight long 4x4 caravan combination sails straight past.
Think of all the news items we see about caravan accidents. How many motorhome crashes do we see. Yes there are more caravans.
So should anyone be able to hit the road with no experience in their new 4x4 and caravan without some form of tests? Folks in their late 70's early 80's can be behind the wheel of these rigs. As long as their doctor says they can drive then they can drive. Including big caravan combinations.
Let the arguments begin.
Over time this subject has been done to death so heres my response, It wouldnt effect me as I have a HC Licence.
So where do you start, in Victoria a caravan is registered as a trailer, other states register them as motor vehicles.
At what level do you want a towing endorsement, a car with a 6x4 trailer, or do we commence at any trailer that requires brakes, or do you want to start at over X weight.
The next step is the start date, will this mean everyone from a given date will have get the endorsement and all those with prior experiance will be RPL'd
How many years do you think it would take to setup and roll out training standards, licenced trainers and testers.
Its not a simple idea.
Gundog you/we will never do anything if we say it's too hard. There has to be a start everywhere.
Yes I should have said in my OP. ALL trailers need an endorsement. A horse trailer can be as dangerous as a caravan or a trailer full of garden waste. Heck you have to get a motorbike license. A boat license etc etc etc.
I know about state variations. At one time I was contracted to try and bring the states together on RV towing laws. Needless to say that went no where because of some states.
Remember it's only a problem waiting for a solution.
Fishing licence.
To the other end of the spectrum..... but maybe it's just fishing!
Some people get their licence out of a packet of cornflakes to have children!
Heavy Vehicle inspection Stations (HVSS).
All heavy vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) greater than eight tonnes are required to enter a HVSS (except Bell, Chinderah, Pine Creek and Halfway Creek - 4.5 tonnes). These vehicles must enter a HVSS to ensure the vehicle meets safety and roadworthiness standards and that their drivers are complying with road transport laws.
I am very much against government regulations unless its *really* necessary.
However given how inherently unstable a car/caravan rig often is I do feel it would not be unreasonable to have some sort of testing requirement before people can hang a 3T or more van on the back of their vehicle.
I'd also support a maximum speed limit for towing a van; 90 or 95kph maybe? The UK does this.
They 'might' be able to get away with one for over 3.5 tonne.
Good Luck.
limiting speed is a double edge sword i believe they tried it with trucks an found that the slower vehicles caused dangerous situations with people trying to overtake slower trucks a lack of overtaking lanes doesn't help .
road trains are restricted to 90 kph and they cause traffic congestion in areas that lack safe overtaking options
-- Edited by dogbox on Friday 15th of January 2021 02:17:47 PM
cheers
blaze
Yes it will be a hard sell. But only to one segment of the community. The other 95% would love it.
They introduced a boat licence system in Vic. Just sit a test and get the licence, although I think its changed now and a training session is included now. But could be corrected.
Could do the same for vans, perhaps over say, 2 ton. Would become an endorsement to drivers licence. Im in favour of something, just not too onerous.
As someone said, we do have a lot of regulation. Would need to be nation wide, so that makes it almost impossible to introduce.
Hi
While I am not in favour of more regulation and licences, I do think this is an area that needs it. All trailers are tricky and as they get up towards the weight of the towing vehicle it gets unstable. AND the wind area of a caravan is much greater than the tug to make matters worse in cross winds and B doubles passing.
So my suggestion is leave the small unbraked trailers alone but anything bigger needs an endorsment achieved by a suitable training course and some hours of experience. Designed as a useful idea not hijacked by the training companies to made a quick quid.
A one off fee for the licence endorsement.
To be honest i think it would be easy to sell to the average Grey Nomad starting out. Certainly an easy sell to the rest of the driving public.
AND an overall speed limit for all braked trailers of 100 seems reasonable to me too.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 15th of January 2021 04:40:45 PM
Rather than a licence to actually tow.
A licence for understanding weights!
BB
Some need testing every year and it would still not be enough.
Some 80 year olds are fine.
Cheers,
Peter
When one stops driving you can load up your scooter!
Just need to hook up the trailer to this.
https://youtu.be/eKVeQT0Vuow
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Friday 15th of January 2021 08:58:53 PM
As a light truck licence is required over 4.5 t gvm (Gross vehicle mass )
I think this should be changed to any GCM (gross combined mass )over 4.5 tonne
Hi I have a HC license and have had many years reversing trailers and driving trucks and comparing the way they handle the roads on which we travel the caravan combination is harder to control than a truck.
There should be a towing or training coarse for rigs over a certain length or weight it might give new drivers some etiquette to others on the road especially truckers as I have had more near incidents with cowboy caravan drivers than any one else.
I also worked in a caravan park for the winter in NT and was amazed at some of the setups on the road some good some really overweight and unbalanced. The amount of vans I had to back in was staggering some had absolutely no idea how to reverse .
A coarse would be a good idea and should be made mandatory for all newbies who have a class 1 license with no experience towing or driving heavy vehicles.
Cheers
Driver training schools could be accredited to grant the endorsement.
If it did, the roads would be much safer and friendlier places already.
There are good drivers with licences, ordinary drivers with licences, and bad drivers with licences. That will remain the same.
That said, perhaps at least some theoretical training as part of the driving licensing process may be of benefit, done as it would be before a driver has 5, 10 or maybe more years of ingraining bad habits if it becomes a later in life addition. Cover weights, vehicle dynamics and whatever else is important, I think thats the best time to train us.
Ok lets put our head in the sand like you Les since when was training a control hard done by whos hard done by not sure what you mean
How many involve RVs?
We are overregulated as it is and loosing the freedoms we all grey up and enjoyed, its seems as you get older our generation see a need to change all that.
regards
Ian
PS : get over it and stop ya wihnging
can you imagine what it would be like if there were no rules, regulations, penalties.
when automobiles became available to the general public getting a license usually meant filling out a form as they became more common some form of test was involved to make sure the people who wanted to drive understood there were rules ect. truck licenses were the same as car licenses one size fitted all, the only restriction being age.
them someone decided that trucks would be restricted length/weight various classes so that a person would have to hold a lower class license for a period of time before progressing to a higher class (learning curve)
to get a drivers license today one must read the hand book (not very big) then answer a few questions just to make sure you have read the handbook (a lot don't get past this part first time ) then drive around the block ,presto they are a qualified driver, they know it all.
the majority that is the end of their formal training .
a lot of older people who hold truck licenses got them when they turned a certain age (different states different ages )an never had to take a test especially if they lived in the country.
could some of the people who object to some form of training for up grading of license to tow a 2- 3.5 ton trailer may be worried they might find their skills lacking?
drive a >4.5 GVM vehicle license upgrade required ---- drive GCM 6 ton no upgrade