Hello everyone,

I just noted a headline on the usual New Highlights that greet us when we come online. It was on Skynews & was a feature by a Green Auditor, Geologist, expert on Earth Sciences (an Ian Plimer). I note he has some contradictory ideas on Global Warming.

The News brief stated that "Eion Musk was correct in saying that hydrogen is pointless in countries like Australia with limited water supplies" (want to see my sloppy back yard at the moment?). Apparently it takes 9L of water to produce 1kg of hydrogen. Slightly salty water is unacceptable apparently.

So my question as the Townsville Council is preparing to build a hydrogen plant here (you can guess who is paying - not her Lordship) is is this statement a furphy? How far can one drive on 1kg of hydrogen?

Petrol about 12kW per kg, hydrogen about 33kW per kg.

Warren-Pat_01 wrote:

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Hello everyone,

I just noted a headline on the usual New Highlights that greet us when we come online. It was on Skynews & was a feature by a Green Auditor, Geologist, expert on Earth Sciences (an Ian Plimer). I note he has some contradictory ideas on Global Warming.

The News brief stated that "Eion Musk was correct in saying that hydrogen is pointless in countries like Australia with limited water supplies" (want to see my sloppy back yard at the moment?). Apparently it takes 9L of water to produce 1kg of hydrogen. Slightly salty water is unacceptable apparently.

So my question as the Townsville Council is preparing to build a hydrogen plant here (you can guess who is paying - not her Lordship) is is this statement a furphy? How far can one drive on 1kg of hydrogen?

---

 Here's a view on Pilmer.

..

Ian Plimer's volcano claims vaporise under questioning on Australian TV | COP 15: Copenhagen climate change conference 2009 | The Guardian

Warren-Pat_01 wrote:

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Hello everyone,

I just noted a headline on the usual New Highlights that greet us when we come online. It was on Skynews & was a feature by a Green Auditor, Geologist, expert on Earth Sciences (an Ian Plimer). I note he has some contradictory ideas on Global Warming.

The News brief stated that "Eion Musk was correct in saying that hydrogen is pointless in countries like Australia with limited water supplies" (want to see my sloppy back yard at the moment?). Apparently it takes 9L of water to produce 1kg of hydrogen. Slightly salty water is unacceptable apparently.

So my question as the Townsville Council is preparing to build a hydrogen plant here (you can guess who is paying - not her Lordship) is is this statement a furphy? How far can one drive on 1kg of hydrogen?

---

 Hi Warren,

It was recently in another topic that a bus company in Roma was converting to Hydrogen power for its vehicles.

Roma, at least at the time of the post was under water restrictions and when the author was questioned there was no alternative explanation forthcoming when it was suggested that water would have to be *trucked in* to run the buses.

To pump or move water to anywhere from anywhere costs power which is money and the potential for increased pollution as well.

As with all schemes, there exists the need for a lot more accurate truly independent research.

Maybe the Townsville council is going to supply Hydrogen in tanks to end users.

If I may be cynical it is probably more to the point that the State Govt/ Townsville council has sent a paper bag full of money to the developer to build the plant. There in is the problem, tax or rate payers money going toward building a business so that a private company may profit.

Consumers paying for the development and then paying tax on the end product.

Without knowing what Townsvilles intention for the H Plant, I think that there is a place for Hydrogen in the scheme of generating Green Power.

My thoughts are that a Hydrogen powered generator could be installed as a supplement to a Solar array to supply power to a designated requirement.
The location of the HGenerator is important in being close enough to the solar and the equipment needing the power.

The water requirement will almost always be a problem in Australia. If the plant requires desalination then the economy of scale would never balance.
Desal water is a stop gap method that we may need or not need to survive as a community, or town but to use a system in Australia that when operating on a very basic level, wastes 50 to 60 percent of the water it produces then I think we need to seriously rethink what we use this desal water for.

Can we afford to waste this water lost in the desal process?
Can we afford to use sea water (which is in abundance) and then pump or transport the desal water from the coast to Roma?

The bus company in Roma is relying on rainfall, well that wont work during water restrictions which, as I said above were in place a week ago.

Roy E wrote:

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Without researching the subject deeply, I believe the amount of electrical power needed/used to separate Oxygen from Hydrogen in water to give us Hydrogen for fuel would at very best equal the equivalent potential power of the Hydrogen. Now this would be only with 100% efficiency in every part of the process. The electrical power used would perhaps be more efficiently used in charging electrical vehicles.
Cheers,
Roy

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 Except that long range vehicles can not carry enough batteries and charging takes a long time.

The hydrogen/electric busses have a range of 800km. They take 10 minutes to refuel.

Semis, busses, trains, aircraft (and maybe tow vehicles and 4WDs for use in the bush) will use hydrogen to make electricity via a fuel cell. They are still 100% electric drive.

Cheers,

Peter

Sydney's Northside Storage Tunnel for sewer can hold 500,000m² & pump 350 million litres per 24 hours out through North Head.

A lot of water & fertilizer being simply dumped in the ocean each day. Maybe this could be processed when there is excess wind or solar.

It was not that long ago that we had the universal gas conversion of public transport bus systems. That did not go well. Diesel returned.

And I would hate to be on a bus that explodes with Hydrogen on board.

The GN scientists here don't tell you the down side of Hydrogen volatility.

Diesel will be around longer than our life times and, I believe, well beyond 2050.

BRISBANE NATURAL-GAS BUS PHASE-OUT REASON: EXPLOSIONS! (busnews.com.au)

new diesel buses are a stopgap, with Brisbane City Council's long-term plans to use a mix of greener technologies, like electricity and hydrogen,
Gas powered vehicles still used a conventional internal combustin engine, so none of the benefits of electric propulsion were available.
Hydrogen is probably less dangerous than petrol and it can be stored in several forms including combined with other chemicals and water. Ammonia is one method likely to be popular.
If there is a hydrogen gas leak it goes up and dissipates very quickly instead of pooling on the ground.
Even when it burns, it does so more "gently" than petrol. The Hindenburg burned. It did not explode.
Cheers,
Peter

links to our mob
Hi Craig,

Thank you for your email and for your interest in Hydrogen Park Murray Valley. I will get back to you shortly regarding the electrolyser, by products and the source of renewable electricity.

Please also refer to the links below for further information regarding the project.

https://www.australiangasnetworks.com.au/renewablegas

https://www.australiangasnetworks.com.au/blended-renewable-gas

https://www.australiangasnetworks.com.au/Blended-Renewable-Gas-FAQs

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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The Hindenburg burned. It did not explode.
Cheers,
Peter

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 And didn't it burn quickly, 90 seconds after ignition it was a smouldering wreck on the ground.

While the theories of Hydrogen powered generators and mixing Hydrogen with gas to heat and provide cooking fuel seems good, a lack of supply of clean water to make this Hydrogen can be a problem in many areas of the world.

Apparently the common disposal of the waste from the desal process is for the most, pumped back into the worlds oceans.

60% of the process is brine.

Currently there are groups up in arms in Port Lincoln in SA due to a proposed Desal Plant being built where the discharge will be pumped back into the Spencer Gulf.
This is not the first time similar proposals have been suggested by hair brained radicals.

I might add that the Spencer Gulf supports what is claimed to be some of the best sustainable fishing industries in the world.
The lower Spencer Gulf needs water but because it is at the end of the water supply pipe is why water will become a problem. Desalination of sea water may fix one problem at the expense of an entire sustainable industry.

Buzzs reference to some of us being selfish is unjustified. You need to take a good look at you and your mates.

This attempt to make our planet green as perceived by tearful 15 year old girls on TV and by some others with financial gain as their main agenda may cost us all dearly as time goes on.

There does not need to be any rush. Pollution in our oceans is extremely concerning.

Have a read of the effects of this study into Water Desalination.

www.circleofblue.org/2019/world/desalination-has-a-waste-problem/

-- Edited by Rob Driver on Wednesday 1st of December 2021 05:45:12 PM

The "waste" from producing hydrogen from water is oxygen.
The "waste" from using hydrogen as a fuel is pure water.
That water can be easily collected and used to reduce other water consumption.

We had an EFOY fuel cell to charge our batteries in poor weather in Europe. The small amounts of water that was produced by that process went straight to the drinking water tank.

Cheers,

Peter

"mixing Hydrogen with gas to heat and provide cooking fuel seems good"

Not such a good idea when oxygen accidentally mixed with hydrogen and ignited on the space shuttle Challenger, the shuttle didn't burn, it exploded.

Peter,

In this topic You said this:

SA has very limited rainfall, but with excess solar power we can make heaps of pure water with our reverse osmosis desal plant.
There is plenty of water in the ocean

From that it certainly appears that you intended that water produced from the Desalination Process could be used for the production of Hydrogen with total disregard for the health of our oceans.  

You appear only to be *green* when it suits.

Whenarewethere wrote:

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Sydney's Northside Storage Tunnel for sewer can hold 500,000m² & pump 350 million litres per 24 hours out through North Head.

A lot of water & fertilizer being simply dumped in the ocean each day. Maybe this could be processed when there is excess wind or solar.

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 Hey, We of the Never Never,

What a brilliant suggestion, process the waste to achieve 40% clean water for Hydrogen production and dump the waste that remains into the sea.

None of you people are prepared to consider the final end result of your *green* fantasies.  

I am amazed but probably not surprised of the total disregard for the health of our oceans displayed by those who think we need an electric hydrogen car to fix our planet.

I may be called a climate denier, but I am not an earth polluter.

Rob Driver wrote:

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Whenarewethere wrote:

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Sydney's Northside Storage Tunnel for sewer can hold 500,000m² & pump 350 million litres per 24 hours out through North Head.

A lot of water & fertilizer being simply dumped in the ocean each day. Maybe this could be processed when there is excess wind or solar.

---

 Hey, We of the Never Never,

What a brilliant suggestion, process the waste to achieve 40% clean water for Hydrogen production and dump the waste that remains into the sea.

None of you people are prepared to consider the final end result of your *green* fantasies.  

I am amazed but probably not surprised of the total disregard for the health of our oceans displayed by those who think we need an electric hydrogen car to fix our planet.

I may be called a climate denier, but I am not an earth polluter.

---

 Simply turn your number twos into fertilizer. If bored you could add your numbers ones to it to make explosives.

Captain Cook's main role traveling the world was actually to look for new sources of number twos to make explosives. England was running out of number twos.

WW1 started because of the Haber Bosch process to make explosives & fertilizer out of thin air, but is highly fossil fuel intensive.

The Bosch Haber process can be converted to using renewables. Which currently accounts for about 1.2% of the world's greenhouse gases.

Taking this a step further ammonia nitrate is a brilliant form of energy storage, there is up to 12,000 tonnes in Newcastle. So renewably created ammonia nitrate could then be used to provide energy when the wind doesn't blow.

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Maybe you missed the bit about hydrogen being water neutral. You get it all back.




Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter,

No I didnt miss that. In fact you get it back 9 fold.

In a static H Power situation this water could be collected and re used which is great but with your bus company in Roma, your suggestion in using this in trucks and road transport might just pose a slight problem that, yet again, you people refuse to see.

Have you ever ridden a motorcycle or bicycle. Have you ever followed a truck or a bus in your Oka. What about in mums little runabout car at home????

Have a read of this article and then tell me how much energy efficiency you will gain when you have to carry 9 times the weight of waste water between fil ups.

Now, I was in transport most of my life and I dont even need a calculator to know that carrying that weight will render the profit from the payload actually negative. Probably even more of a loss if factoring in having to empty the waste water in an approved receptacle.

Disposal of that volume of water in a warm climate will make the road behind wet and slippery and a visual hazard to following drivers, and in a cold climate the water on the road will provide a slippery sheet of ice.

Anyway,

Have a read of the article. 

************** 

One often hears that powering vehicles with hydrogen fuel cells will eliminate pollution; that their only emission is water. In this situation water may be a very dangerous pollutant.

When hydrogen combines with oxygen to produce water in a fuel cell the hydrogen is taken from a tank carried in the vehicle and the oxygen is taken from the air (as it is in gasoline-combustion vehicles). The reaction is

2 H₂ + O₂ -> 2 H₂O .

So, for every 2 hydrogen atoms taken from the fuel tank, 1 oxygen atom is taken from the air. An oxygen atom is about 16 times more massive than a hydrogen atom, so the water molecule is 9 times [(16 + 2) / 2] more massive than the 2 hydrogen atoms used to make it.

Where is that water going to go when it is produce by the engine of a vehicle? It will come out as liquid or steam, depending on the "exhaust" temperture.

Depending on the weather conditions produced steam may rise and form clouds around the road, or it may form fog at the road surface, or it may condense and drop on the road. Even in warm weather water on the road will be dangerous. In freezing weather it will make the road downright treacherous, especially if most or all vehicles on the road are powered by hydrogen fuel cells.

The steam could be condensed and stored as very hot water in a tank in the vehicle. Then the vehicle will eventually have to carry 9 times as much mass as the hydrogen fuel tank carried when full, and the tank will be dangerously hot. Carrying the water around in the vehicle will greatly reduce the energy efficiency of the vehicle.
The water tank would have to be emptied when the hydrogen tank is filled, or more often if it is not large enough to hold all the water produced by the total amount of hydrogen in the fuel tank. Pure water is good to have, but it sounds like something with which most vehicle drivers will not want to bother.

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As I have already indicated, going off half ****ed with my wallet is not the way to improve the weather. Oh and I didnt mention *acid rain* as it is an entirely different situation. Just check China and Indias local air quality.