Here is a video which unfortunately represents the total lack of knowledge of those who should not be making any comment at all with regard to caravan accidents.
The myth of accelerating raises its head yet again.
There is some real gems of misinformation in this video.
The interview with the policeman at approximately the 5 minute mark really says it all. He makes a very valid point.
Anyway have a look and a listen and BTW I dont in any way endorse The Project or Channel 10 but a lot of people watch and take notice of articles like this.
There is always going to be this ever present danger unfortunately. No driver is perfect in every scenario...the photo of the aftermath of that accident a few weeks ago here provoked many questions and opinions.
The bloke is honest about what happened..."he has no idea". The passenger did note that the vehicle had wandered to the verge of the road though. The driver admitted he "knew" how to correct the sway, albeit not the right way, but in the heat of the moment didn't react, which is what I have mentioned here before now. When faced with a situation, panic is likely the first reaction for most people, not calm thinking in the split second of what to do.
Dropping the left side on to dirt then correcting too quickly is a recipe for disaster. The moral to the story is to be alert and vigilant at all times...know your van and your tow vehicle...don't take any unnecessary risks.
An opinion i have is that many of the folk involved in these types of accidents don't appear to have done a lot of driving...what I mean by that is likely not spent hours and hours driving long distances and understanding how fatigue can affect judgement.
I see way too many skid marks on country roads where it is obvious a driver has wandered on to the gravel shoulder, panicked and wrenched the wheel to correct and sent the vehicle in to a skid over the road and in to the bushes on the opposite side, possibly rolling the vehicle.
There is too little emphasis on driving time and driving experience unfortunately, driving lessons or special licenses don't automatically inject a dose of the smarts either!
RoboLB said
09:28 AM Jul 1, 2022
OK I'm not a caravan owner and have no experience towing them.
But from my reading on this Forum, there seems to be a strong view that the commonly accepted way to reduce sway, increasing speed, is just plain wrong.
And on that news clip, people said they had undergone 'training'.
If the training is wrong.........we have a problem surely?
The comment above from Hitting the Road is I think a really good point.
To react in the right way in an emergency, it takes training and practice.
So that muscle memory kicks in.........
In a 'previous life' I seemed to spend half my life 'training' so that when sxxt did happen, the right reactions kicked in. And it works.
Hard to do though, for those who drag their rig out infrequently.
What's the answer I wonder?
Gundog said
09:51 AM Jul 1, 2022
The old chestnut "you need a licence to tow" the theory is great but where is the starting point, is it every trailer or just caravans.
We have all seen that 6x4 trailer with a bucket of soil, pile of wood, a stack of pavers rolling down the road with the springs on the trailer almost inverted and the tail end of the car almost dragging on the road, or the long weekend runner with his boat attached which is loaded with everything including the kitchen sink grossly over weight.
Then throw into the mix how do you actually licence everyone with a trailer, is if you have proven ownership come and get it,we will give you one for a fee, everyone else must have on by x date, then we have you must do a training course to get a licence, thats going to be a bit of a problem it would take a lot of years just to get everyone to do a course, without trying to fit new applicants in. What exemptions will there be?
Would the training factiltator need to have a large array of trailers to use to train people, because many wont have one, or will there be a group of people say get S****ed and just drive like the people that have never bothered getting a car licence.
Its not as easy to just do it.
(Me Playing the Devils advocate)
smwhiskey said
10:19 AM Jul 1, 2022
Gundog wrote:
The old chestnut "you need a licence to tow" the theory is great but where is the starting point, is it every trailer or just caravans.
We have all seen that 6x4 trailer with a bucket of soil, pile of wood, a stack of pavers rolling down the road with the springs on the trailer almost inverted and the tail end of the car almost dragging on the road, or the long weekend runner with his boat attached which is loaded with everything including the kitchen sink grossly over weight.
Then throw into the mix how do you actually licence everyone with a trailer, is if you have proven ownership come and get it,we will give you one for a fee, everyone else must have on by x date, then we have you must do a training course to get a licence, thats going to be a bit of a problem it would take a lot of years just to get everyone to do a course, without trying to fit new applicants in. What exemptions will there be?
Would the training factiltator need to have a large array of trailers to use to train people, because many wont have one, or will there be a group of people say get S****ed and just drive like the people that have never bothered getting a car licence.
Its not as easy to just do it.
(Me Playing the Devils advocate)
To continue in the devils playground....
Do you have to do a specific course for different sized trailers? One for box trailer, One for camper trailers, one for caravans, one for boats, one for car trailers. After all, there would be different requirements for securing loads (and even usage) depending on the trailer type. And besides, I shouldn't need to do a caravan course if I'm only planning to tow a small box trailer.
Simon
dogbox said
10:39 AM Jul 1, 2022
smwhiskey wrote:
Gundog wrote:
The old chestnut "you need a licence to tow" the theory is great but where is the starting point, is it every trailer or just caravans.
We have all seen that 6x4 trailer with a bucket of soil, pile of wood, a stack of pavers rolling down the road with the springs on the trailer almost inverted and the tail end of the car almost dragging on the road, or the long weekend runner with his boat attached which is loaded with everything including the kitchen sink grossly over weight.
Then throw into the mix how do you actually licence everyone with a trailer, is if you have proven ownership come and get it,we will give you one for a fee, everyone else must have on by x date, then we have you must do a training course to get a licence, thats going to be a bit of a problem it would take a lot of years just to get everyone to do a course, without trying to fit new applicants in. What exemptions will there be?
Would the training factiltator need to have a large array of trailers to use to train people, because many wont have one, or will there be a group of people say get S****ed and just drive like the people that have never bothered getting a car licence.
Its not as easy to just do it.
(Me Playing the Devils advocate)
To continue in the devils playground....
Do you have to do a specific course for different sized trailers? One for box trailer, One for camper trailers, one for caravans, one for boats, one for car trailers. After all, there would be different requirements for securing loads (and even usage) depending on the trailer type. And besides, I shouldn't need to do a caravan course if I'm only planning to tow a small box trailer.
Simon
same as a truck license never needed one then they decided you did , nominated a cut off date anyone wanting to drive truck after that date had to have a test . now you must do a training course licenses are by weight, number of axles, rigid , semi number of trailers ect ect various classes of licenses . all in my life time
so this type of thing has been done before
dorian said
11:26 AM Jul 1, 2022
This demo is interesting:
It suggests that the caravan is most stable when the load is at the front.
-- Edited by dorian on Friday 1st of July 2022 11:30:10 AM
Hitting the road said
01:33 PM Jul 1, 2022
There is no "one size fits all" answer. There are too many variables in play. As I wrote in an earlier post, and is mentioned above by another poster, to drive a heavy truck you have to do some training. That training though doesn't give you some sort of extra insight, it merely prepares you....experience is gained on the job.
Just as with towing a van or heavy trailer, experience is gained on the job.
The fellow that was involved in the roll over said he hadn't driven for a while now, that he had lost his confidence. That can happen of course, the old saying that you should immediately get back on the horse after falling off plays out...
It is not unknown for a very experienced truck driver to lose concentration for a moment and roll a trailer over. I know of a case a couple of years ago where a mate traveling 2 up Darwin / Brisbane, had been working with the same fellow for over two years, a trip every week. Prior to that this same fellow had been with another operator driving triples on the same route for many years.
On this particular day my mate was in the bunk while the other fellow was doing his stint. On a sweeping left hander just north of of Tambo he lost concentration for a moment and the rear trailer of the triple road train stepped out to the right and slid sideways in the gravel and rolled over.
I know where it happened as I replaced this fellow and drove a couple of trips 2 up afterward with the mate as the other bloke went on leave...the road does have a slight off camber and I could see how you could easily drop a trailer off if you were to lose concentration for a few moments and run too wide. Once you let that happen there is no going back...no room for error.
Exactly the same can happen with towing a caravan, a lapse in concentration, a wheel or wheels drop in to the gravel and pull the car, the driver over reacts and sends the whole rig in to a tail wagging incident ending in a roll over.
-- Edited by Hitting the road on Friday 1st of July 2022 01:34:28 PM
Jaahn said
06:05 AM Jul 2, 2022
Hi
I think the posters who are doing the 'devils advocate' posts are being mischievous with their simplistic statements. Comparing towing box trailers which have size and weight limits on them anyway, to fully loaded big caravans that are allowed to be heavier than the towing vehicle and lets face it MUCH physically bigger also.
All our licence requirements for driving have graduated weight and size steps from a car, to a light commercial, through several commercial sizes, to heavy trailers and them multiple trailers. Not rocket science and all states use the same categories. The days of "learning on the job" for work changed years ago in the last century to ensure safe working, and then you had to get tickets to do jobs that previously you might not have needed. And you know what, they worked out a procedure and the working world did not grind to a halt because of it.
Well I think they could easily get some licence or extra ticket system to cover caravans. It seems to me the caravan industry has seen a loop hole in the regs and has exploited the cashed up Grey Nomads by selling the idea of just hitching up this huge van and drive around Australia. It must be easy because everyone does it. You see them everywhere. On the side of the road, on tow trucks, in the news etc. Yea easy enough but obviously many people have no common sense either to be able to evaluate their limits. So the rules need to be put in to guide them. IMHO.
I learned a lot of my extra skills on the job, driving and working in a third world country or two and using my ability to have a go. But lets face it I was much younger then and a fast learner and I believe have common sense. If i was starting now at my age I would question whether I should do the big lap with a big 4WD and huge 3Ton van. So we chose to buy, some years back a modest mini bus and find that easy to handle, both of us, and maybe not as many options as we wish for but that is our choice.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 06:15:57 AM
Clarky 1 said
07:56 AM Jul 2, 2022
Jaahn wrote:
Hi
I think the posters who are doing the 'devils advocate' posts are being mischievous with their simplistic statements. Comparing towing box trailers which have size and weight limits on them anyway, to fully loaded big caravans that are allowed to be heavier than the towing vehicle and lets face it MUCH physically bigger also.
All our licence requirements for driving have graduated weight and size steps from a car, to a light commercial, through several commercial sizes, to heavy trailers and them multiple trailers. Not rocket science and all states use the same categories. The days of "learning on the job" for work changed years ago in the last century to ensure safe working, and then you had to get tickets to do jobs that previously you might not have needed. And you know what, they worked out a procedure and the working world did not grind to a halt because of it.
Well I think they could easily get some licence or extra ticket system to cover caravans. It seems to me the caravan industry has seen a loop hole in the regs and has exploited the cashed up Grey Nomads by selling the idea of just hitching up this huge van and drive around Australia. It must be easy because everyone does it. You see them everywhere. On the side of the road, on tow trucks, in the news etc. Yea easy enough but obviously many people have no common sense either to be able to evaluate their limits. So the rules need to be put in to guide them. IMHO.
I learned a lot of my extra skills on the job, driving and working in a third world country or two and using my ability to have a go. But lets face it I was much younger then and a fast learner and I believe have common sense. If i was starting now at my age I would question whether I should do the big lap with a big 4WD and huge 3Ton van. So we chose to buy, some years back a modest mini bus and find that easy to handle, both of us, and maybe not as many options as we wish for but that is our choice.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 06:15:57 AM
Initially I wasnt going to comment as I think the Policeman said it all in the video.
I then read Jaahns post and this would have to be one of the best contributions to the subject of appropriate licensing that I have read.
This sums it up;
Well I think they could easily get some licence or extra ticket system to cover caravans. It seems to me the caravan industry has seen a loop hole in the regs and has exploited the cashed up Grey Nomads by selling the idea of just hitching up this huge van and drive around Australia. It must be easy because everyone does it. You see them everywhere. On the side of the road, on tow trucks, in the news etc. Yea easy enough but obviously many people have no common sense either to be able to evaluate their limits. So the rules need to be put in to guide them.
Operating a caravan would be the only piece of equipment that does not require licensing or specialist training in Australia.
This shows on a daily basis by the reports of spin outs and roll overs, but we only have to visit a caravan park to realise how a huge percentage of operators can not reverse their unit onto a given site. But worse than this, many operators do not realise that the really big unit behind their car actually cuts the corner when it turns. Half a dozen attempts to back in does not mean you are capable.
This is pretty basic stuff that all operators of these units should be aware of, and to be honest, the others on the road and in the near vicinity deserve the right to safety and have the knowledge that these drivers are actually capable of correctly driving and manoeuvring these rigs.
Just by observation, how many caravan operators do you see actually get out of their vehicle and check the area that they intend to reverse into before performing for everyone.
No, it is easier to scream abuse at Mum just to let everyone know that they know what they are doing and it is Mums fault when they hit a tree branch or water tap that *nobody had seen*
Coming from a career on the road with the correct licence and training, this assessment and licensing of caravan operators can not come quick enough in the interest of road safety.
yobarr said
09:47 AM Jul 2, 2022
dorian wrote:
This demo is interesting:
It suggests that the caravan is most stable when the load is at the front.
No.No.No. It does not suggest that at all, and your comment is a perfect example of people not listening,and understanding what is being said. Later today I will elaborate. Cheers
dorian said
10:01 AM Jul 2, 2022
yobarr wrote:
dorian wrote:
This demo is interesting:
It suggests that the caravan is most stable when the load is at the front.
No.No.No. It does not suggest that at all, and your comment is a perfect example of people not listening,and understanding what is being said. Later today I will elaborate. Cheers
When the first weight is moved from the front to the middle, the system becomes less stable. That occurs at about 44 seconds into the video.
Mike Harding said
10:23 AM Jul 2, 2022
Whilst the driver must ultimately be responsible for the safety of his car and van his task is often not helped by the state of the roads and the vehicles permitted to travel on them.
Eg. I have now marked the C252 Hattah to Robinvale (Victoria) road on my map as "Never again with the van!". Although it is a sealed and (theoretically) two lane road for its length it is narrow with rough edges to the bitumen and no proper shoulders; with just cars it would be barely adequate but 62.5 tonne B Doubles at 100kph are permitted on it and on weekdays many of them use it. I was twice forced to take to the shoulders at speed with a drop from the bitumen to the dirt of about 75mm. Fortunately I completed the road unscathed but such conditions, which are created by The Authorities are a recipe for disaster.
Sometime the poor old driver can find himself in a dangerous situation which is not of his making.
Gundog said
10:59 AM Jul 2, 2022
yobarr wrote:
dorian wrote:
This demo is interesting:
It suggests that the caravan is most stable when the load is at the front.
No.No.No. It does not suggest that at all, and your comment is a perfect example of people not listening,and understanding what is being said. Later today I will elaborate. Cheers
I maybe wrong but the model trailer appears to not very repesentative of single axle caravan, approximatly the 3 segements are around the same length, if the drawbar was cut in half and the test repeated maybe the result would be a little different.
dorian said
11:40 AM Jul 2, 2022
Isn't the reason for the instability the fact that one is creating a pendulum, and wouldn't a shorter pendulum therefore be more stable? What if the pendulum were as short as possible, ie what if the weight were on the tow ball (theoretically speaking)?
BTW, I'm just considering the effect of load distribution on sway, as per that demo. Obviously there are other considerations as well, perhaps more important ones.
-- Edited by dorian on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 11:56:25 AM
yobarr said
12:13 PM Jul 2, 2022
dorian wrote:
yobarr wrote:
dorian wrote:
This demo is interesting:
It suggests that the caravan is most stable when the load is at the front.
No.No.No. It does not suggest that at all, and your comment is a perfect example of people not listening,and understanding what is being said. Later today I will elaborate. Cheers
When the first weight is moved from the front to the middle, the system becomes less stable. That occurs at about 44 seconds into the video.
Hi Dorian. Have a bit more time now so I'll try to elaborate. Although the video will no doubt be of assistance to many it is not one of the better ones available on this subject. In this video the reason that the system becomes less stable is that there is NO towball weight when, as stated in this video, towball weight should be around 10% of ATM. The subject trailer also is small, with a long forward length. (Distance from the rear axis to front of vehicle, or its hitchpoint) . It is critically important that the majority of weight in a caravan be centred over the axle group and as low as possible. Hanging of gas bottles, jerry cans, bicycles, generators and myriad other bits of rubbish off the rear of a van, or on its drawbar is just asking for trouble, with YAW being the enemy. Bit of a "flick" and it all goes RSup. As stated earlier, these sorts of videos can be of assistance to many, but unfortunately some will draw incorrect conclusions, as you have done. Please note that this post is not to criticise you but to possibly assist others who would reach the same incorrect conclusions. Cheers
P.S Example of accident looking for a place to happen but owner insisted it all was legal and balanced! Yeah, right.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 01:05:34 PM
I agree with Yobarr .... the video is flawed. While the message may be correct, and they refer to 10% ball load, the trailer model used in their demonstration clearly does not have 10% ball load. The axle is in the middle of the box, and the overly long drawbar would impose much less than 10% on the towball. It should be designed differently with the axle a little further back. Designing it the way they did appears to me they had an agenda that needed such design to help exaggerate the effect.
When a van starts to sway, the pendulum effect of weight at either end tends to perpetuate the sway because it wants to pivot at the axle. So load concentrated over the axle is always better. Sure, weight at the rear is worse than being at the front, but either end is bad.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 01:00:08 PM
Mike Harding said
01:15 PM Jul 2, 2022
The Owner's Handbook for my Holden Trailblazer specifies a towball weight of 10% for a single axle trailer but 5 to 10% for a twin axle trailer.
Mike196 said
01:50 PM Jul 2, 2022
The Pajero Owners Manual, recommends the ball weight be between 5% - 8%.
yobarr said
03:34 PM Jul 2, 2022
Mike196 wrote:
The Pajero Owners Manual, recommends the ball weight be between 5% - 8%.
That is because of the pathetically low 1600kg rear axle rating, (Assuming Pajero Sport) and no other reason. This low rear axle rating is also the reason that you're allowed only 180kg towball weight if your trailer has ATM over 2500kg. Spare me! These recommendations defy both the simple laws of physics, and logic. Anybody who chooses to run 6% towball weight (3000 x 6% = 180) while towing a 3000kg ATM van with an already lightweight car would have to be a few cents short of a dollar? Unfortunately many people have no idea as evidenced by a discussion I had only this morning with a lovely couple who were touring in an LC105 V8 petrol. He was very happy that his car weighed "only 3600kg", not realising that the GVM of his vehicle is only 3260kg. Not to mention that it has a rear axle rating of a miserable 1950kg. Van was 25' and he proudly announced that it was "good for 3500kg" but the small wheels gave that away so I looked at compliance plate that showed ATM at 3120kg and GTM at 2820kg. Tare was listed as 2720kg so official carrying capacity of 400kg. You'd have to be joking. This van was absolutely loaded with "stuff" including 3 full jerry cans on the rear bumper, along with a tank for diesel heater fuel and a large toolbox with an array of tools. "I'm good for 6400kg GCM" he said, very happy with himself, until I pointed out that if his car weighed 3600kg when loaded there was only 2800kg left, and his van tared at 2720kg. He was overloaded to the point of stupidity but was blissfully unaware because he'd been misled by both the van dealer and the chap who had sold him the car. Luckily for him I was still present when he said "OK Mum, looks like we'll have to buy that RAM 1500 you've been wanting" and I was able to explain to him the sad truth that a RAM 1500 cannot legally and safely tow much more than about 3000kg ATM as a PIG trailer. Then we were approached by a chap driving an LC200 that was towing a huge 26' van that had the axles well behind mid-chassis. But that's another sad story. Cheers.
P.S This is NOT the LC200 being discussed above, but is merely an illustration of the stupidity, or ignorance, of some van owners..
Yobarr: iirc the Trailblazer has a rear axle spec of 1600kg but it's towball weight is speced at 10% of it's tow weight of 3T.
yobarr said
04:46 PM Jul 2, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
Yobarr: iirc the Trailblazer has a rear axle spec of 1600kg but it's towball weight is speced at 10% of it's tow weight of 3T.
Perhaps one of the vagaries of the motor trade Mike? This may be incorrect, but I believe that the Trailblazer uses a 250mm shortened example of the actual Colorado chassis while the Pajero is monocoque, using "eggshell" technology so would be inherently weaker. That car's published limitations indicate, to me at least, that Mitsubishi are covertly encouraging people not to tow more than 2500kg with that car. Realistically, with the short wheelbase and low GVM, that's about tops too, if safety is of any concern. Trailblazer tares at about 100kg more than Pajero too, so may be heavier construction? Happy to be corrected on any of above but those details are what a bit of research revealed. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 04:48:47 PM
Mike Harding said
05:33 PM Jul 2, 2022
Fair enough.
Ivan 01 said
07:58 PM Jul 2, 2022
One thing that didnt happen in the model demo above is that the commentator didnt speed up the conveyor / road to drive out of the wobbles,
Bas + Eve said
04:59 PM Jul 4, 2022
Caravan drivers should have initial training, currency limitations and repetitive reviews by an accredited training organisation. I have been a Chief Pilot and Chief Flying Instructor for over 50 years and have spent many thousands of hours training people to ignore any initial panic reaction to any potential emergency. Naturally part of the training corriculum weight and balance limitations are instilledinto them also. My point being, these requirements could easily be applied to drivers of articulated vehicles.
Hitting the road said
08:53 AM Jul 5, 2022
It's always as I wrote earlier a point of contention..."training". Many blokes think they are beyond training, are bullet proof, and know everything anyway.
I flew light aircraft for a number of years on a PPL, but eventually gave it away post GST due to the increasing hire cost of an aircraft for an hour 3 times a month to do the mandatory monthly "touch & goes" just to stay current.
There was also a safety factor in my decision to give it away as I was not flying often enough in my own opinion to keep my own reflexes honed...as well as stay up to date on everything else necessary to fly safely.
I can imagine the uproar if it became mandatory for any driver to even carry out an annual competency test to maintain a license to tow anything over...say...1000kg. It is considered a person's right to drive a motor vehicle towing anything apparently, regardless of their ability to do so safely to other road users or even them selves.
I believe there should be some sort of mandatory training, awareness course, or something to teach some drivers even the basic physics of towing anything. Manufacturers need a reality check too, trying to out do each other advertising constantly that some under powered light weight Japaneses utility can tow 3500kg's "safely"...which is usually way above the vehicles own GVM, and is just asking for trouble imo in the hands of an inexperienced driver.
KevinJ said
09:30 AM Jul 5, 2022
A BFR for caravanners.
Clarky 1 said
11:12 AM Jul 5, 2022
There is yet another one R Supp this morning near Elaroo north of Calen.
How they miss oncoming vehicles is a miracle.
Gundog said
03:23 PM Jul 5, 2022
Clarky 1 wrote:
There is yet another one R Supp this morning near Elaroo north of Calen.
How they miss oncoming vehicles is a miracle.
the weather has been terrible yesterday and today, I've been into Proserpine twice today the amount of caravans traversing the Bruce Highway astounds me. If it was me with the amount of rain, unless it was neccessary I would stay put and move after this rain band passed (had over 4 inches of yesterday and today)
Radar said
08:08 PM Jul 5, 2022
Gundog wrote:
Clarky 1 wrote:
There is yet another one R Supp this morning near Elaroo north of Calen.
How they miss oncoming vehicles is a miracle.
the weather has been terrible yesterday and today, I've been into Proserpine twice today the amount of caravans traversing the Bruce Highway astounds me. If it was me with the amount of rain, unless it was neccessary I would stay put and move after this rain band passed (had over 4 inches of yesterday and today)
Hi, we left Seaforth yesterday, Monday and yes, there was a lot of morning traffic moving along with the rain to Proserpine, truly I find it a lot easier to drive in the wet, I enjoy it, rainning carts and dogs situation because for the most the people who lack that ability to deal with the conditions are parked up waiting for better weather, which is good.
A couple of cars we caught up to were a bit, how you do but to be fair, I would of really of broken the speed limit just to overtake them.
Proserpine around 11am when we went to have a stop, the water in the gutters ruled that out and we stopped for coffee at the coffee place a little north.
The run from there to Bowen was much easier, less road work stopages and with less traffic with more rain.
Stopped to do some shopping in Bowen. With a very quite run in the rain to Homehill.
Our camp site at Seaforth become a necessary to move on otherwise we may of stayed camped for few more days but you can guess it we are no better off only we are on power and able to run the ac on heat.
Ps, you can not judge what happen at that accident scene without being a witness. We hope all involved are ok.
Looking a better day Wednesday.
-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 5th of July 2022 08:21:38 PM
Here is a video which unfortunately represents the total lack of knowledge of those who should not be making any comment at all with regard to caravan accidents.
The myth of accelerating raises its head yet again.
There is some real gems of misinformation in this video.
The interview with the policeman at approximately the 5 minute mark really says it all. He makes a very valid point.
Anyway have a look and a listen and BTW I dont in any way endorse The Project or Channel 10 but a lot of people watch and take notice of articles like this.
https://youtu.be/8RjG0xdsUCY
The bloke is honest about what happened..."he has no idea". The passenger did note that the vehicle had wandered to the verge of the road though. The driver admitted he "knew" how to correct the sway, albeit not the right way, but in the heat of the moment didn't react, which is what I have mentioned here before now. When faced with a situation, panic is likely the first reaction for most people, not calm thinking in the split second of what to do.
Dropping the left side on to dirt then correcting too quickly is a recipe for disaster. The moral to the story is to be alert and vigilant at all times...know your van and your tow vehicle...don't take any unnecessary risks.
An opinion i have is that many of the folk involved in these types of accidents don't appear to have done a lot of driving...what I mean by that is likely not spent hours and hours driving long distances and understanding how fatigue can affect judgement.
I see way too many skid marks on country roads where it is obvious a driver has wandered on to the gravel shoulder, panicked and wrenched the wheel to correct and sent the vehicle in to a skid over the road and in to the bushes on the opposite side, possibly rolling the vehicle.
There is too little emphasis on driving time and driving experience unfortunately, driving lessons or special licenses don't automatically inject a dose of the smarts either!
But from my reading on this Forum, there seems to be a strong view that the commonly accepted way to reduce sway, increasing speed, is just plain wrong.
And on that news clip, people said they had undergone 'training'.
If the training is wrong.........we have a problem surely?
The comment above from Hitting the Road is I think a really good point.
To react in the right way in an emergency, it takes training and practice.
So that muscle memory kicks in.........
In a 'previous life' I seemed to spend half my life 'training' so that when sxxt did happen, the right reactions kicked in. And it works.
Hard to do though, for those who drag their rig out infrequently.
What's the answer I wonder?
The old chestnut "you need a licence to tow" the theory is great but where is the starting point, is it every trailer or just caravans.
We have all seen that 6x4 trailer with a bucket of soil, pile of wood, a stack of pavers rolling down the road with the springs on the trailer almost inverted and the tail end of the car almost dragging on the road, or the long weekend runner with his boat attached which is loaded with everything including the kitchen sink grossly over weight.
Then throw into the mix how do you actually licence everyone with a trailer, is if you have proven ownership come and get it,we will give you one for a fee, everyone else must have on by x date, then we have you must do a training course to get a licence, thats going to be a bit of a problem it would take a lot of years just to get everyone to do a course, without trying to fit new applicants in. What exemptions will there be?
Would the training factiltator need to have a large array of trailers to use to train people, because many wont have one, or will there be a group of people say get S****ed and just drive like the people that have never bothered getting a car licence.
Its not as easy to just do it.
(Me Playing the Devils advocate)
To continue in the devils playground....
Do you have to do a specific course for different sized trailers? One for box trailer, One for camper trailers, one for caravans, one for boats, one for car trailers. After all, there would be different requirements for securing loads (and even usage) depending on the trailer type. And besides, I shouldn't need to do a caravan course if I'm only planning to tow a small box trailer.
Simon
same as a truck license never needed one then they decided you did , nominated a cut off date anyone wanting to drive truck after that date had to have a test . now you must do a training course licenses are by weight, number of axles, rigid , semi number of trailers ect ect various classes of licenses . all in my life time
so this type of thing has been done before
This demo is interesting:
It suggests that the caravan is most stable when the load is at the front.
-- Edited by dorian on Friday 1st of July 2022 11:30:10 AM
There is no "one size fits all" answer. There are too many variables in play. As I wrote in an earlier post, and is mentioned above by another poster, to drive a heavy truck you have to do some training. That training though doesn't give you some sort of extra insight, it merely prepares you....experience is gained on the job.
Just as with towing a van or heavy trailer, experience is gained on the job.
The fellow that was involved in the roll over said he hadn't driven for a while now, that he had lost his confidence. That can happen of course, the old saying that you should immediately get back on the horse after falling off plays out...
It is not unknown for a very experienced truck driver to lose concentration for a moment and roll a trailer over. I know of a case a couple of years ago where a mate traveling 2 up Darwin / Brisbane, had been working with the same fellow for over two years, a trip every week. Prior to that this same fellow had been with another operator driving triples on the same route for many years.
On this particular day my mate was in the bunk while the other fellow was doing his stint. On a sweeping left hander just north of of Tambo he lost concentration for a moment and the rear trailer of the triple road train stepped out to the right and slid sideways in the gravel and rolled over.
I know where it happened as I replaced this fellow and drove a couple of trips 2 up afterward with the mate as the other bloke went on leave...the road does have a slight off camber and I could see how you could easily drop a trailer off if you were to lose concentration for a few moments and run too wide. Once you let that happen there is no going back...no room for error.
Exactly the same can happen with towing a caravan, a lapse in concentration, a wheel or wheels drop in to the gravel and pull the car, the driver over reacts and sends the whole rig in to a tail wagging incident ending in a roll over.
-- Edited by Hitting the road on Friday 1st of July 2022 01:34:28 PM
Hi
I think the posters who are doing the 'devils advocate' posts are being mischievous with their simplistic statements. Comparing towing box trailers which have size and weight limits on them anyway, to fully loaded big caravans that are allowed to be heavier than the towing vehicle and lets face it MUCH physically bigger also.
All our licence requirements for driving have graduated weight and size steps from a car, to a light commercial, through several commercial sizes, to heavy trailers and them multiple trailers. Not rocket science and all states use the same categories. The days of "learning on the job" for work changed years ago in the last century to ensure safe working, and then you had to get tickets to do jobs that previously you might not have needed. And you know what, they worked out a procedure and the working world did not grind to a halt because of it.
Well I think they could easily get some licence or extra ticket system to cover caravans. It seems to me the caravan industry has seen a loop hole in the regs and has exploited the cashed up Grey Nomads by selling the idea of just hitching up this huge van and drive around Australia. It must be easy because everyone does it. You see them everywhere. On the side of the road, on tow trucks, in the news etc. Yea easy enough but obviously many people have no common sense either to be able to evaluate their limits. So the rules need to be put in to guide them. IMHO.
I learned a lot of my extra skills on the job, driving and working in a third world country or two and using my ability to have a go. But lets face it I was much younger then and a fast learner and I believe have common sense. If i was starting now at my age I would question whether I should do the big lap with a big 4WD and huge 3Ton van. So we chose to buy, some years back a modest mini bus and find that easy to handle, both of us, and maybe not as many options as we wish for but that is our choice.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 06:15:57 AM
Initially I wasnt going to comment as I think the Policeman said it all in the video.
I then read Jaahns post and this would have to be one of the best contributions to the subject of appropriate licensing that I have read.
This sums it up;
Well I think they could easily get some licence or extra ticket system to cover caravans. It seems to me the caravan industry has seen a loop hole in the regs and has exploited the cashed up Grey Nomads by selling the idea of just hitching up this huge van and drive around Australia. It must be easy because everyone does it. You see them everywhere. On the side of the road, on tow trucks, in the news etc. Yea easy enough but obviously many people have no common sense either to be able to evaluate their limits. So the rules need to be put in to guide them.
Operating a caravan would be the only piece of equipment that does not require licensing or specialist training in Australia.
This shows on a daily basis by the reports of spin outs and roll overs, but we only have to visit a caravan park to realise how a huge percentage of operators can not reverse their unit onto a given site. But worse than this, many operators do not realise that the really big unit behind their car actually cuts the corner when it turns. Half a dozen attempts to back in does not mean you are capable.
This is pretty basic stuff that all operators of these units should be aware of, and to be honest, the others on the road and in the near vicinity deserve the right to safety and have the knowledge that these drivers are actually capable of correctly driving and manoeuvring these rigs.
Just by observation, how many caravan operators do you see actually get out of their vehicle and check the area that they intend to reverse into before performing for everyone.
No, it is easier to scream abuse at Mum just to let everyone know that they know what they are doing and it is Mums fault when they hit a tree branch or water tap that *nobody had seen*
Coming from a career on the road with the correct licence and training, this assessment and licensing of caravan operators can not come quick enough in the interest of road safety.
No.No.No. It does not suggest that at all, and your comment is a perfect example of people not listening,and understanding what is being said. Later today I will elaborate. Cheers
When the first weight is moved from the front to the middle, the system becomes less stable. That occurs at about 44 seconds into the video.
Whilst the driver must ultimately be responsible for the safety of his car and van his task is often not helped by the state of the roads and the vehicles permitted to travel on them.
Eg. I have now marked the C252 Hattah to Robinvale (Victoria) road on my map as "Never again with the van!". Although it is a sealed and (theoretically) two lane road for its length it is narrow with rough edges to the bitumen and no proper shoulders; with just cars it would be barely adequate but 62.5 tonne B Doubles at 100kph are permitted on it and on weekdays many of them use it. I was twice forced to take to the shoulders at speed with a drop from the bitumen to the dirt of about 75mm. Fortunately I completed the road unscathed but such conditions, which are created by The Authorities are a recipe for disaster.
Sometime the poor old driver can find himself in a dangerous situation which is not of his making.
I maybe wrong but the model trailer appears to not very repesentative of single axle caravan, approximatly the 3 segements are around the same length, if the drawbar was cut in half and the test repeated maybe the result would be a little different.
Isn't the reason for the instability the fact that one is creating a pendulum, and wouldn't a shorter pendulum therefore be more stable? What if the pendulum were as short as possible, ie what if the weight were on the tow ball (theoretically speaking)?
BTW, I'm just considering the effect of load distribution on sway, as per that demo. Obviously there are other considerations as well, perhaps more important ones.
-- Edited by dorian on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 11:56:25 AM
Hi Dorian. Have a bit more time now so I'll try to elaborate. Although the video will no doubt be of assistance to many it is not one of the better ones available on this subject. In this video the reason that the system becomes less stable is that there is NO towball weight when, as stated in this video, towball weight should be around 10% of ATM. The subject trailer also is small, with a long forward length. (Distance from the rear axis to front of vehicle, or its hitchpoint) . It is critically important that the majority of weight in a caravan be centred over the axle group and as low as possible. Hanging of gas bottles, jerry cans, bicycles, generators and myriad other bits of rubbish off the rear of a van, or on its drawbar is just asking for trouble, with YAW being the enemy. Bit of a "flick" and it all goes RSup. As stated earlier, these sorts of videos can be of assistance to many, but unfortunately some will draw incorrect conclusions, as you have done. Please note that this post is not to criticise you but to possibly assist others who would reach the same incorrect conclusions. Cheers
P.S Example of accident looking for a place to happen but owner insisted it all was legal and balanced! Yeah, right.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 01:05:34 PM
I agree with Yobarr .... the video is flawed. While the message may be correct, and they refer to 10% ball load, the trailer model used in their demonstration clearly does not have 10% ball load. The axle is in the middle of the box, and the overly long drawbar would impose much less than 10% on the towball. It should be designed differently with the axle a little further back. Designing it the way they did appears to me they had an agenda that needed such design to help exaggerate the effect.
When a van starts to sway, the pendulum effect of weight at either end tends to perpetuate the sway because it wants to pivot at the axle. So load concentrated over the axle is always better. Sure, weight at the rear is worse than being at the front, but either end is bad.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 01:00:08 PM
The Owner's Handbook for my Holden Trailblazer specifies a towball weight of 10% for a single axle trailer but 5 to 10% for a twin axle trailer.
The Pajero Owners Manual, recommends the ball weight be between 5% - 8%.
That is because of the pathetically low 1600kg rear axle rating, (Assuming Pajero Sport) and no other reason. This low rear axle rating is also the reason that you're allowed only 180kg towball weight if your trailer has ATM over 2500kg. Spare me! These recommendations defy both the simple laws of physics, and logic. Anybody who chooses to run 6% towball weight (3000 x 6% = 180) while towing a 3000kg ATM van with an already lightweight car would have to be a few cents short of a dollar? Unfortunately many people have no idea as evidenced by a discussion I had only this morning with a lovely couple who were touring in an LC105 V8 petrol. He was very happy that his car weighed "only 3600kg", not realising that the GVM of his vehicle is only 3260kg. Not to mention that it has a rear axle rating of a miserable 1950kg. Van was 25' and he proudly announced that it was "good for 3500kg" but the small wheels gave that away so I looked at compliance plate that showed ATM at 3120kg and GTM at 2820kg. Tare was listed as 2720kg so official carrying capacity of 400kg. You'd have to be joking. This van was absolutely loaded with "stuff" including 3 full jerry cans on the rear bumper, along with a tank for diesel heater fuel and a large toolbox with an array of tools. "I'm good for 6400kg GCM" he said, very happy with himself, until I pointed out that if his car weighed 3600kg when loaded there was only 2800kg left, and his van tared at 2720kg. He was overloaded to the point of stupidity but was blissfully unaware because he'd been misled by both the van dealer and the chap who had sold him the car. Luckily for him I was still present when he said "OK Mum, looks like we'll have to buy that RAM 1500 you've been wanting" and I was able to explain to him the sad truth that a RAM 1500 cannot legally and safely tow much more than about 3000kg ATM as a PIG trailer. Then we were approached by a chap driving an LC200 that was towing a huge 26' van that had the axles well behind mid-chassis. But that's another sad story. Cheers.
P.S This is NOT the LC200 being discussed above, but is merely an illustration of the stupidity, or ignorance, of some van owners..
Yobarr: iirc the Trailblazer has a rear axle spec of 1600kg but it's towball weight is speced at 10% of it's tow weight of 3T.
Perhaps one of the vagaries of the motor trade Mike? This may be incorrect, but I believe that the Trailblazer uses a 250mm shortened example of the actual Colorado chassis while the Pajero is monocoque, using "eggshell" technology so would be inherently weaker. That car's published limitations indicate, to me at least, that Mitsubishi are covertly encouraging people not to tow more than 2500kg with that car. Realistically, with the short wheelbase and low GVM, that's about tops too, if safety is of any concern. Trailblazer tares at about 100kg more than Pajero too, so may be heavier construction? Happy to be corrected on any of above but those details are what a bit of research revealed. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 2nd of July 2022 04:48:47 PM
Fair enough.
I flew light aircraft for a number of years on a PPL, but eventually gave it away post GST due to the increasing hire cost of an aircraft for an hour 3 times a month to do the mandatory monthly "touch & goes" just to stay current.
There was also a safety factor in my decision to give it away as I was not flying often enough in my own opinion to keep my own reflexes honed...as well as stay up to date on everything else necessary to fly safely.
I can imagine the uproar if it became mandatory for any driver to even carry out an annual competency test to maintain a license to tow anything over...say...1000kg. It is considered a person's right to drive a motor vehicle towing anything apparently, regardless of their ability to do so safely to other road users or even them selves.
I believe there should be some sort of mandatory training, awareness course, or something to teach some drivers even the basic physics of towing anything. Manufacturers need a reality check too, trying to out do each other advertising constantly that some under powered light weight Japaneses utility can tow 3500kg's "safely"...which is usually way above the vehicles own GVM, and is just asking for trouble imo in the hands of an inexperienced driver.
A BFR for caravanners.
How they miss oncoming vehicles is a miracle.
the weather has been terrible yesterday and today, I've been into Proserpine twice today the amount of caravans traversing the Bruce Highway astounds me. If it was me with the amount of rain, unless it was neccessary I would stay put and move after this rain band passed (had over 4 inches of yesterday and today)
Hi, we left Seaforth yesterday, Monday and yes, there was a lot of morning traffic moving along with the rain to Proserpine, truly I find it a lot easier to drive in the wet, I enjoy it, rainning carts and dogs situation because for the most the people who lack that ability to deal with the conditions are parked up waiting for better weather, which is good.
A couple of cars we caught up to were a bit, how you do but to be fair, I would of really of broken the speed limit just to overtake them.
Proserpine around 11am when we went to have a stop, the water in the gutters ruled that out and we stopped for coffee at the coffee place a little north.
The run from there to Bowen was much easier, less road work stopages and with less traffic with more rain.
Stopped to do some shopping in Bowen. With a very quite run in the rain to Homehill.
Our camp site at Seaforth become a necessary to move on otherwise we may of stayed camped for few more days but you can guess it we are no better off only we are on power and able to run the ac on heat.
Ps, you can not judge what happen at that accident scene without being a witness. We hope all involved are ok.
Looking a better day Wednesday.
-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 5th of July 2022 08:21:38 PM