travelyounger wrote:

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I guess there must be a lot of unsafe vehicles on the road then

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 And there most certainly are!The problem is that the vast majority of caravanners seem to have little understanding of weights,and,indeed,simple physics. Their troubles often start when they read glossy advertisements of the towing abilities of various models,and are continued when they are speaking with salesmen whose job it is to flog a car to any mug who walks into the sales area.It is highly unlikely that these salesmen know anything about weights,other than what is written in the glossy brochures,and you can be sure that,even if they were aware of a vehicle's limitations,they certainly are not going to risk losing a sale,and the associated commission,by enlightening the customer.These problems often are exacerbated by after market upgrades that often lead the purchaser to believe that their car can do things that it can not do,and was never meant to do.Caveat emptor.Cheers

Being someone with no engineering knowledge, I go by the tow rating given by the manufacturer. If these are incorrect shouldn't the experts on here refer these falsehoods to the manufacturer as well as the authorities for the sake of public safety. I read here that some manufacturers ratings are OK for dog trailers but not pig trailers, once again shouldn't the authorities be made aware that manufacturers are misleading the public in a matter serious enough to cause death through only part disclosure.

Craig1 wrote:

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Yobarr,
Sorry , did not see your query about which tyre. The front steer tyre of your Dog Trailer photo. It looks stable until that tyre blows,(a bit like a rigid truck to me), a most awful event. Thanks

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 Hi Craig....if the  front tyre of a truck blows,the truck may be difficult to control because the whole mass of the truck,and maybe its trailer,is pushing the front axle.With a pig trailer,the front axle is being towed by the truck.Applying the trailer brakes will straighten it all up if things go awry.With my car,on the open road,I always have the trailer brakes set so that they come on slightly harder than do the car's brakes,but wind it back a bit in lower speed zones.Works for me! Cheers

HandyWalter wrote:

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I normally take Yobarr's comments with a grain of salt. However a friend of mine with a JEEP rated to tow 3500kgs, can barely tow a caravan rated at ATM or is that GTM of 3030. Loaded van up weighed at Seymour weigh bridge and van 2870kg, ball weight, 275kg (a bit under 10%). When hooked to car with full fuel (no LR tank), no mods other than tow bar, brake unit, and LT tyres on car, with wife, 3 whippet dogs and himself, and all he can load up extra is another 25kgs in the car. I start to wonder if the car weights are accurate as advertised, or are they like some caravan weights, measured on the basic model and then applied to all. Some of these Yank Tanks are no better at towing weights than a LC 200 and they cannot tow 3.5T and be safe on the road

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 Hi Walter...Great to see that,after our previous interactions,you now realise that I do know what I'm talking about when it concerns weights etc.Thankyou for your kind comments. Without too much research,the biggest GVM for a Jeep that I can find is less than 3000kg,(happy to be corrected)which correlates with the advertised GCM of 6460kg.Anybody who even contemplates towing a 3500kg PIG trailer with such a vehicle would,in my opinion,be a few cents  short of a dollar.Unfortunately,I do not have time to find the  rear axle rating of the Jeep,but you can be sure that if your friend's car is currently running within 25kg of its GVM,it will certainly be well overloaded on its rear axle.Your last sentence succinctly summarises the indesputable facts.Such cars cannot tow 3500kg,or anywhere near that figure,as a PIG trailer.Thanks again for your input.Cheers

Aus-Kiwi wrote:

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Its not a matter if something fails !! Get the correct licence and truck !! Would you fly in plane with pilot having tiger moth licence . ??

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 Hi Graeme...love the analogy! Cheers

Bryan wrote:

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Being someone with no engineering knowledge, I go by the tow rating given by the manufacturer. If these are incorrect shouldn't the experts on here refer these falsehoods to the manufacturer as well as the authorities for the sake of public safety. I read here that some manufacturers ratings are OK for dog trailers but not pig trailers, once again shouldn't the authorities be made aware that manufacturers are misleading the public in a matter serious enough to cause death through only part disclosure.

 

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Bryan, That is what the Caravan Council of Australia is always doing - Reporting to ACCC seems to fall on deaf ears. Even when manufacturers and Dealers are found to be misleading in Tribunal Hearings - no action is taken against them.

If your van or tug is found to be overweight against its VIN Plate - notify ACCC. 

Possum3 wrote:

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Bryan wrote:

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Being someone with no engineering knowledge, I go by the tow rating given by the manufacturer. If these are incorrect shouldn't the experts on here refer these falsehoods to the manufacturer as well as the authorities for the sake of public safety. I read here that some manufacturers ratings are OK for dog trailers but not pig trailers, once again shouldn't the authorities be made aware that manufacturers are misleading the public in a matter serious enough to cause death through only part disclosure.

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Bryan, That is what the Caravan Council of Australia is always doing - Reporting to ACCC seems to fall on deaf ears. Even when manufacturers and Dealers are found to be misleading in Tribunal Hearings - no action is taken against them.If your van or tug is found to be overweight against its VIN Plate - notify ACCC. 

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 Thanks Possum,for that information,as I too wondered how such misleading advertising was permitted.Many people have absolutely no understanding of weights,take things at face value,and easily can end up in an overloaded,unsafe and uninsured vehicle.An interesting point in your post is "......no action is taken against them".Strange. Cheers

yobarr wrote:

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HandyWalter wrote:

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I normally take Yobarr's comments with a grain of salt. However a friend of mine with a JEEP rated to tow 3500kgs, can barely tow a caravan rated at ATM or is that GTM of 3030. Loaded van up weighed at Seymour weigh bridge and van 2870kg, ball weight, 275kg (a bit under 10%). When hooked to car with full fuel (no LR tank), no mods other than tow bar, brake unit, and LT tyres on car, with wife, 3 whippet dogs and himself, and all he can load up extra is another 25kgs in the car. I start to wonder if the car weights are accurate as advertised, or are they like some caravan weights, measured on the basic model and then applied to all. Some of these Yank Tanks are no better at towing weights than a LC 200 and they cannot tow 3.5T and be safe on the road

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 Hi Walter...Great to see that,after our previous interactions,you now realise that I do know what I'm talking about when it concerns weights etc.Thankyou for your kind comments. Without too much research,the biggest GVM for a Jeep that I can find is less than 3000kg,(happy to be corrected)which correlates with the advertised GCM of 6460kg.Anybody who even contemplates towing a 3500kg PIG trailer with such a vehicle would,in my opinion,be a few cents  short of a dollar.Unfortunately,I do not have time to find the  rear axle rating of the Jeep,but you can be sure that if your friend's car is currently running within 25kg of its GVM,it will certainly be well overloaded on its rear axle.Your last sentence succinctly summarises the indesputable facts.Such cars cannot tow 3500kg,or anywhere near that figure,as a PIG trailer.Thanks again for your input.Cheers

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Presumably the Grand Cherokee is the Jeep model being referred to here. Weight & tow specs for the GC will depend on the model and variant, they are not all the same. Specs for GVM/GCM, tow rating, axle ratings, TBM and payload are all readily available for each variant. Similar examinations should be made of all brands of SUV's and Utes with a claimed 3500kg tow rating. Unless you carry little if anything, in any of them, none can viably tow 3500kg with a TBM of 350kg in a practical sense. I have all the specs for my GC and operate well within them with heaps to spare, but then I don't tow a block of flats with it, most folks don't. If I wanted to tow something that heavy I would buy a vehicle with the next level of towing capacity.

boab wrote:

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i think a 200 series would be one of the safest tugs around although it may not be legal if my memory is correct yobarr had his ute suspension upgraded by a mate who was not necessarily qualified to do it so if that is the case it may be safe but may not be legal. I have my bullet proof vest on ready for the onslaught

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 Hi Gary...There is absolutely no need to wear your bullet proof vest,but I would like to again point out that the  fact that a vehicle may be big,powerful,comfortable and possibly luxurious certainly does not necessarily mean that it is safe.Simple physics shows that a car with a 2850mm wheelbase and a TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitchpoint/towball) of 1400mm or more is inherently unstable when a 350kg weight is applied to the towball.Simple physics at work.Many of the bigger twin cabs,such as Ranger, DMax,79,Colorado etc have longer wheelbases and less TBO,so naturally would be more stable.Regarding your recollection of me stating that I "....had his ute suspension upgraded by a mate...." this was intended as a sarcastic response to a couple of members who seem to know little about weights,understand less,have no interest in learning,and came only after I had been repeatedly challenged to provide evidence that my GVM upgrade did exist,and was legal.Previously I have posted pictures of my compliance plate etc,but,for your benefit,I will again post them.After receiving criticism and abuse from all directions,I would like to again thank you for contacting Lovells direct and confirming that everything I had written about a certain GVM upgrade was 100% correct. Cheers.

SouthernComfort wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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HandyWalter wrote:

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I normally take Yobarr's comments with a grain of salt. However a friend of mine with a JEEP rated to tow 3500kgs, can barely tow a caravan rated at ATM or is that GTM of 3030. Loaded van up weighed at Seymour weigh bridge and van 2870kg, ball weight, 275kg (a bit under 10%). When hooked to car with full fuel (no LR tank), no mods other than tow bar, brake unit, and LT tyres on car, with wife, 3 whippet dogs and himself, and all he can load up extra is another 25kgs in the car. I start to wonder if the car weights are accurate as advertised, or are they like some caravan weights, measured on the basic model and then applied to all. Some of these Yank Tanks are no better at towing weights than a LC 200 and they cannot tow 3.5T and be safe on the road

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 Hi Walter...Great to see that,after our previous interactions,you now realise that I do know what I'm talking about when it concerns weights etc.Thankyou for your kind comments. Without too much research,the biggest GVM for a Jeep that I can find is less than 3000kg,(happy to be corrected)which correlates with the advertised GCM of 6460kg.Anybody who even contemplates towing a 3500kg PIG trailer with such a vehicle would,in my opinion,be a few cents  short of a dollar.Unfortunately,I do not have time to find the  rear axle rating of the Jeep,but you can be sure that if your friend's car is currently running within 25kg of its GVM,it will certainly be well overloaded on its rear axle.Your last sentence succinctly summarises the indesputable facts.Such cars cannot tow 3500kg,or anywhere near that figure,as a PIG trailer.Thanks again for your input.Cheers

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Presumably the Grand Cherokee is the Jeep model being referred to here. Weight & tow specs for the GC will depend on the model and variant, they are not all the same. Specs for GVM/GCM, tow rating, axle ratings, TBM and payload are all readily available for each variant. Similar examinations should be made of all brands of SUV's and Utes with a claimed 3500kg tow rating. Unless you carry little if anything, in any of them, none can viably tow 3500kg with a TBM of 350kg in a practical sense. I have all the specs for my GC and operate well within them with heaps to spare, but then I don't tow a block of flats with it, most folks don't. If I wanted to tow something that heavy I would buy a vehicle with the next level of towing capacity.

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Good to see that you understand the limitations of your chosen vehicle,and load it accordingly.The point that many struggle to understand is that,if safety is of any concern,the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels.Many experts believe that the car should have 20% more weight on its wheels than does the van.At my GCM of 6800kg,my car is 16% heavier than my van.Cheers.

I think I'm missing something here. If a vehicle manufacturer states that a particular model can tow 3500kg (a Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel for example) and this particular vehicle as stated here can't then why would it be illegal, its within manufacturer's specs. 

To further complicate matters I once had a Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel although my van weighed only 2000kgs but i met a few similar Jeep owners towing vans over 3000kgs who only had praise for their vehicle and its ability to tow a heavy load.

SouthernComfort wrote:

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Any car rated to tow 3500kg can tow 3500kg, but after allowing for 350kg TBM there is often very little capacity left for payload before you reach GVM. And that's even if you ignore the ideal situation where the car would/should weigh 10% more than the trailer. Those that hit the most problems are the ones with all the heavy after market items (tow bar, bull bars, mud flaps etc i.e. everything that is not standard) bolted to the car by the owner, not the factory. When the car leaves the factory, its weight (effectively tare weight) is what the manufacturer specifies, it's just the same with caravans. The manufacturers 'factory' weight won't be incorrect, it's what the owner does to ADD to it that causes the problem. Even if you add a brake controller, you add weight - and so on.

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 Well said Tony,particularly your comment about the importance of the car being heavier than the van,if safety is of any concern.Ther are very few cars that can safely tow much more than about 3000kg because of the rear axle limitations of the car.Few cars can get anywhere near GVM before the rear axle is overloaded,as the towball takes weight off the front axle and transfers it to the rear axle.Cheers.

HandyWalter wrote:

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Southern Comfort I think you need to read a recent court case against a Caravan Manufacturer who plated all their Caravans based on a Van weight a few years before and never upgraded it, so when the van was delivered it was already over weight and a danger to tow. As i said and without any evidence mind you, other than how could my friends be overweight, that perhaps car manufacturers are doing the same. As i said His car is dead stock other than different tyres from new (and NOT LT construction) and a tow bar and brake controller. He and his wife and three light dogs are not big people, so I was surprised he was so close to GVM, even with a tow ball weight well below 350Kgs.

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HW, I'm well aware of the dubious practice of that van manufacturer. Pitting a small van manufacturer against one of the world's largest and oldest vehicle builders isn't a good comparison of best practice though. Having said that, credible van manufacturers will weigh every new van individually at tare and provide a weighbridge certificate to verify the plated weight, as mine did. Doesn't matter that tare is virtually meaningless after that, but it is the starting weight of a van off the line, similarly with the car. Without knowing which variant of the GC your friend has, and assuming it's probably 4x4 diesel which is 2949kg GVM, here's how the vehicle weights would roughly pan out: 

GC Tare 2267 (raw vehicle)

TBM 275 (as you've stated)

Remaining Payload 407

Total GVM  2949kg

The 407kg payload would need to include the 2 people (av. 150kg), 3 dogs (av. 36kg), whatever extra weight the non-stock tyres might impose (assume nil), the towbar and brake controller (av. 30kg), fuel (av. 70kg). These averages are only for the purpose of this crude exercise, but assuming they are close to reality with your friend, then there would still be around 120kg left for everything else he wants to carry, not as little as 25kg.

This is a simple calc based on lots of assumptions so it's slightly hazardous territory, but having the same model of car and knowing my loads, it just piques my curiosity. The GC also requires that a WDH be used for trailer weights exceeding 2267kg, so the weight of that device needs to be added also - unless he isn't using one...

Pity we didn't know more of this info in the first place. We now know what model he has and some of its characteristics. My numbers were based on my model as an example.

I can't buy the conspiracy theories re. the vehicle manufacturer's weights. However weigh stations have been out before. It's quite possible to get different readings from different stations, even the same station with the same rig. Then there's the assumption that he's using the weigh station correctly. Get him to do a calculation similar to mine based his actual weights rather than our assumptions, he should soon find where the anomaly lies. Get him to check actual weights on both axles while he's at it.

SouthernComfort wrote:

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Pity we didn't know more of this info in the first place. We now know what model he has and some of its characteristics. My numbers were based on my model as an example.

I can't buy the conspiracy theories re. the vehicle manufacturer's weights. However weigh stations have been out before. It's quite possible to get different readings from different stations, even the same station with the same rig. Then there's the assumption that he's using the weigh station correctly. Get him to do a calculation similar to mine based his actual weights rather than our assumptions, he should soon find where the anomaly lies. Get him to check actual weights on both axles while he's at it.

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 Chances of reaching the listed GVM are nil,as towball weight removes weight from front axle,and transfers it to the car's rear axle,which will quickly reach its capacity.Unless the GVM is less than the sum of the axle ratings,GVM can never be reached.Using a  WDH often creates more problems than it solves,as not only does the WDH add extra weight behind the rear axle,it also will  increase TBO,meaning the actual weight applied to the rear axle is multiplied,adding even more weight to the car's rear axle.(Think 'levers').Winding the  WDH waaay up creates oversteer..........dangerous in the hands of the unskilled.If the vehicle's manufacturers  specify 'no WDH' the problem is exacerbated! Cheers

yobarr wrote:

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SouthernComfort wrote:

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Pity we didn't know more of this info in the first place. We now know what model he has and some of its characteristics. My numbers were based on my model as an example.

I can't buy the conspiracy theories re. the vehicle manufacturer's weights. However weigh stations have been out before. It's quite possible to get different readings from different stations, even the same station with the same rig. Then there's the assumption that he's using the weigh station correctly. Get him to do a calculation similar to mine based his actual weights rather than our assumptions, he should soon find where the anomaly lies. Get him to check actual weights on both axles while he's at it.

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 Chances of reaching the listed GVM are nil,as towball weight removes weight from front axle,and transfers it to the car's rear axle,which will quickly reach its capacity.Unless the GVM is less than the sum of the axle ratings,GVM can never be reached.Using a  WDH often creates more problems than it solves,as not only does the WDH add extra weight behind the rear axle,it also will  increase TBO,meaning the actual weight applied to the rear axle is multiplied,adding even more weight to the car's rear axle.(Think 'levers').Winding the  WDH waaay up creates oversteer..........dangerous in the hands of the unskilled.If the vehicle's manufacturers  specify 'no WDH' the problem is exacerbated! Cheers

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Agreed. Applies to all 3500kg tow rated cars incl Toyota's, LR's, utes, et al. Owners such as HW's friend would be better off with one of the GC's larger siblings i.e. a heavier duty Ram, (not even the 1500), rather than pushing the limit with a 3000 / 3500kg van.

"Southern Comfort i dont want to hijack the RAM thread but he has air suspension and JEEP specifically say no WDH."

Not true - Jeep specifically mandate a WDH for all trailers over 2268 kg - including the Quadra-lift air suspension.  I believe it Landrover that says not to use a WDH with air suspension.

Nevd wrote:

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"Southern Comfort i dont want to hijack the RAM thread but he has air suspension and JEEP specifically say no WDH."

Not true - Jeep specifically mandate a WDH for all trailers over 2268 kg - including the Quadra-lift air suspension.  I believe it Landrover that says not to use a WDH with air suspension.

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To be honest I wasn't certain as mine is not air. Some GC owners even question the need for a WDH on standard suspension when pulling over 2268 because of its self levelling qualities, but the book is clear enough. I didn't see much point in extending the debate any longer in here when not dealing directly with the owner, things get lost in translation.

If you go to the annual Home shows/Caravan events probably not so now with the Virus.

Last year we did the shows at Maryborough and Sunshine Coast.

All with the latest caravan/camper trailer and motor homes.

Can I say they are bigger, more attachements and manufactured with a lot of steel components.

The question I keep asking my wife:

What are they towing them with????

John R

G'day John, -Salesman " What sort of car do you have mate? " , " Oh Landcruiser 200 Wagon " I reply. " No worries mate, that will be fine, she will tow it no probs", says the Salesman.