Insulated service wires .minimum height is 2.7 / 3mm at point of attachment . Depending on vehicle access . Heavy, high vehicles ? Its 4.9m at curb - 5.5m in middle of road . Service wires need to be out of reach . This is where extension cords become a grey area . The fitting needs to be water proof .
JeffRae said
10:04 PM Oct 7, 2020
So, can I safely use one of these and still be within all the specifications that have been quoted?
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:16 PM Oct 7, 2020
I do not believe so.
Cheers,
Peter
Greg 1 said
11:26 PM Oct 7, 2020
The cord must be one length. So therefore connecting two cords together, regardless of whether its in a waterproof box like the one you have pictured or not, is illegal.
For the post regarding the CP in Kununurra and the 5 cords joined together, WA has very strict rules regarding this sort of thing and if caught they would be for the high jump.
Izabarack said
07:52 AM Oct 8, 2020
The external connector on a van is not electrically different to one end of an extension cord. The one length rule is intended to limit the number of connections to the van. In the situation original discussed, the flying lead is just another version or method of connecting a van to shore power.
Iza
bgt said
09:29 AM Oct 8, 2020
OK I'll have one more say on this subject!! Caveat - I'm not qualified or an 'expert' on the subject. (I owned a business that made various electrical items. Include 240 - 12 volt units that needed approvals).
Some years back I was involved in this very same situation. Power cords, extensions etc. I hired a very experienced and expensive city law firm. We/they researched all the various AS/NZS rules and standards. The conclusion was that 'it depends'. It may be in black and white in one standard but contradicted in another. It's possible to buy various power boards, cords etc but it's not always possible/legal to use them. ie in many/some cases it's illegal to use a power board in your own home. Tradies work all the time with cords with extensions on building sites. It's impossible to have one cord that suits all situations. Why would they make or sell extensions cords?
So don't take notice of campfire stories and opinions. Don't believe everything you read on the internet from so called experts. Pick up the phone and call Ampfibian. (Google them). They specialise in RV power cords etc. Phone 1800 342 426. Tell them your situation and get their opinion. One phone call will cost you how much?
Pick up the phone and call Ampfibian. (Google them). They specialise in RV power cords etc. Phone 1800 342 426. Tell them your situation and get their opinion. One phone call will cost you how much?
It's not that easy, they don't answer the phone.
bgt said
02:16 PM Oct 8, 2020
JeffRae that's not good. They have an excellent reputation that's why I recommended them. They are located in Ballina.
I have one of their 10- 15 amp units and it's excellent so I assumed they would have an answer for you.
JeffRae said
07:24 PM Oct 8, 2020
I emailed Ampfibian, their advice was one lead for a caravan park.
For other situations where you must join 2 leads, the X1 Ampfibian meets all electrical requirements for WA as well as the whole of Australia
Aus-Kiwi said
08:08 PM Oct 8, 2020
Plus it all depends on wire size over length, load !!
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:37 PM Oct 8, 2020
JeffRae wrote:
For other situations where you must join 2 leads, the X1 Ampfibian meets all electrical requirements for WA as well as the whole of Australia
I do not believe that is true.
As Aus-Kiwi says, it depends on the conductor sizes and the total length. That is why joining leads is NOT permitted. and no gadget can overcome that.
Cheers,
Peter
JeffRae said
09:59 PM Oct 8, 2020
More comments with NO substantiating documentation.
Looks like we will never get an answer, so we can all continue doing the wrong thing!
Should get Collyn Rivers to write an article on this.
The Travelling Dillberries said
07:20 AM Oct 9, 2020
JeffRae wrote:
More comments with NO substantiating documentation. Looks like we will never get an answer, so we can all continue doing the wrong thing!
Should get Collyn Rivers to write an article on this.
Mamil has given you the facts Jeff, the other comments are pure conjecture.
As an Electrical Contractor I recommend you take no notice of the other unqualified and unsubstantiated statements.
Jaahn said
08:11 AM Oct 9, 2020
Mamil wrote:
-- Peter is correct, you cannot treat a caravan as an "appliance", it has a specific set of regulations applicable to it, namely AS/NZS 3001 Electrical installations - Transportable structures and vehicles including their site supplies.
I cannot post large parts of the standard here because of copyright issues, but here's some pertinent excerpts that answer some of the questions in this thread...
Clause 3.2 "Connection to site supply" allows allows for either a detachable lead connected to a receptacle on the van such as the common 15A male plug, or a permanent connection to the van which would cover the retractable cord discussed in this thread. However, both count as a "supply lead" as far as the standard is concerned and must comply with the following requirements...
Clause 5.1.1 General: A supply lead used to connect the site supply to transportable structures according to Section 3 or the electrical equipment in tents or non-rigid annexes according to Section 4, shall be in one length.
Clause 5.1.3 Length: Any supply lead to be used in caravan parks should be not less than 10m long. In other applications no minimum length is specified. In all cases the length should not exceed the relevant figure specified in Table 5.1 for the applicable cross-sectional area.
Clause 5.1.4 Coiled leads: Where a reel, drum, storage box or similar is provided for the purpose of coiling the supply lead, a conspicuous notice shall be fixed on or near the device to warn that the supply lead must not be connected to the supply while it is coiled.
Just to remind people what Mamil wrote
Jaahn
Mike Harding said
09:03 AM Oct 9, 2020
Jaahn wrote:
I cannot post large parts of the standard here because of copyright issues
Which is an absolute disgrace! Australian Standards are an adjunct to legislation and compliance with them is often necessary for a product to be sold legally.
However some government or other saw fir to sell off the distribution of standards to the commercial firm SAI Global (not an Oz company btw) and they now enforce copyright and charge a bloody fortune for the sale of standards!
Can you imagine walking in to your local police station and paying $350 to purchase a copy of the Crimes Act in order to check legality of something you wish to do!?
I say a pox on SAI's supposed copyright and I distribute standards willy-nilly - I will check if I have AS3001 and if so I'll put it on a website and post a link.
Government should fix this.
bgt said
09:15 AM Oct 9, 2020
JeffRae who would you rather take notice of? All us "experts" here on a forum or Ampfibian? It's their business. They supply folks like Bunnings. I suspect they know what they are talking about.
Trust me. Ampfibian will have a draw full of certificates, approvals and insurance papers that say they know more than anyone on this forum. Period.
-- Edited by bgt on Friday 9th of October 2020 09:34:52 AM
hufnpuf said
09:40 AM Oct 9, 2020
This is an interesting topic.
The quoted clause 5.1.3 indicates that any attached 5m cable is non-compliant, I'd be asking the manufacturer to fit one not less than 10m.
Personally, I'd rather not have an attached cable at all, I'd rather just have the socket to be able to use an independent cable like I have on my van. What if you have to park a little bit further than 10m? with an independent cable, you can use a longer one, if you can't use an extension cord you are out of luck if you have a permanently attached one. I'm a bit surprised that it must always be more than 10m, if you are closer than 5m, you've got a lot of excess cable lying about but can't use a shorter cable. ??
I've only been camping a couple of times, the power boxes seem very close in the caravan parks I've visited, but I'm sure not everywhere is the same. Or is it? Do caravan parks have to put their power supplies so that caravans don't have to use cords in excess of 10m?
Thanks for the info in this thread. It's enlightening to me as a newbie who is looking to do everything properly and to learn what I need to know.
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:56 AM Oct 9, 2020
hufnpuf wrote:
This is an interesting topic.
The quoted clause 5.1.3 indicates that any attached 5m cable is non-compliant, I'd be asking the manufacturer to fit one not less than 10m.
Personally, I'd rather not have an attached cable at all, I'd rather just have the socket to be able to use an independent cable like I have on my van. What if you have to park a little bit further than 10m? with an independent cable, you can use a longer one, if you can't use an extension cord you are out of luck if you have a permanently attached one. I'm a bit surprised that it must always be more than 10m, if you are closer than 5m, you've got a lot of excess cable lying about but can't use a shorter cable. ??
I've only been camping a couple of times, the power boxes seem very close in the caravan parks I've visited, but I'm sure not everywhere is the same. Or is it? Do caravan parks have to put their power supplies so that caravans don't have to use cords in excess of 10m?
Thanks for the info in this thread. It's enlightening to me as a newbie who is looking to do everything properly and to learn what I need to know.
The "10m rule" (I thought it was 15m, but was probably mistaken) was introduced a few years ago in order to assist in the design of caravan parks to provide some consistency. It came in after the van in question was manufactured and is not retrospective so is not the manufacturer's problem.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 9th of October 2020 09:57:41 AM
Mamil said
10:38 AM Oct 9, 2020
hufnpuf wrote:
This is an interesting topic.
The quoted clause 5.1.3 indicates that any attached 5m cable is non-compliant, I'd be asking the manufacturer to fit one not less than 10m.
Personally, I'd rather not have an attached cable at all, I'd rather just have the socket to be able to use an independent cable like I have on my van. What if you have to park a little bit further than 10m? with an independent cable, you can use a longer one, if you can't use an extension cord you are out of luck if you have a permanently attached one. I'm a bit surprised that it must always be more than 10m, if you are closer than 5m, you've got a lot of excess cable lying about but can't use a shorter cable. ??
I've only been camping a couple of times, the power boxes seem very close in the caravan parks I've visited, but I'm sure not everywhere is the same. Or is it? Do caravan parks have to put their power supplies so that caravans don't have to use cords in excess of 10m?
Thanks for the info in this thread. It's enlightening to me as a newbie who is looking to do everything properly and to learn what I need to know.
Hi Hufnpuff,
This may answer your questions...
The notes to Clause 5.1.3 say... 1. The minimum length is specified for use in caravan parks for the benefit of park designers when they are planning site layouts. 2. In other applications, shorter leads are permitted.
And... Clause 2.2.6.3 Caravan Service pillars, location: Each caravan park service pillar shall be located so as to enable supply leads of the minimum length as specified in clause 5.1.3 to be connected to each applicable site in accordance with clause 5.2.
And... Clause 5.2 Installation of supply lead: Any supply lead shall be arranged so that it will not obstruct persons walking in the vicinity of the transportable structure and shall be either:- (a) located where it will not be subject to mechanical damage or damage by high temperatures or ultraviolet radiation; or (b) provided with suitable protection against mechanical damage or damage by high temperatures or ultraviolet radiation.
-- Edited by Mamil on Friday 9th of October 2020 10:57:41 AM
It came in after the van in question was manufactured and is not retrospective so is not the manufacturer's problem.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 9th of October 2020 09:57:41 AM
oh ok, thanks, do owners need to rush off and retrofit or are they ok to continue with what they've got (as long as they don't need longer and can't use an extension cord in which case they'd be out of luck)
Thanks Mamil, the parks I've been to have had the poles really close, you wouldn't need 10m, but it's such a small sample as not to mean much. Given that you shouldn't leave a cord coiled, shorter distances with a long cord doesn't seem desirable.
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:56 PM Oct 9, 2020
hufnpuf wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
It came in after the van in question was manufactured and is not retrospective so is not the manufacturer's problem.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 9th of October 2020 09:57:41 AM
oh ok, thanks, do owners need to rush off and retrofit or are they ok to continue with what they've got (as long as they don't need longer and can't use an extension cord in which case they'd be out of luck)
Thanks Mamil, the parks I've been to have had the poles really close, you wouldn't need 10m, but it's such a small sample as not to mean much. Given that you shouldn't leave a cord coiled, shorter distances with a long cord doesn't seem desirable.
It is unusual for regulation changes to caravans to be made retrospective, so you should be fine with the gear originally installed.
Cheers,
Peter
Aus-Kiwi said
11:04 PM Oct 9, 2020
Keep in mind . Building cable in houses use 2.5mm X 2 wire size For power circuit . Check the actual wire size on extension cords ? Often 1 to 1.5mm if your lucky ? The heavy duty extension cords just have thicker mechanical protection. Nothing to with extra load capacity. Adding extra length can easy go outside its loading capacity .
bgt wrote:Trust me. Ampfibian will have a draw full of certificates, approvals and insurance papers that say they know more than anyone on this forum. Period.
Eeeerrrr... there are a few of us here who have been in the business for many decades before the share certificate of this company was a gleam in anyone's eye in 2012.
They are not Gods of electricity who are holders of the sole wisdom and should not be presented as such - they have their little issues too:
Mike I take your point. I was trying to simplify my point best I could. I to had an electrical business. I also submitted products for approval. I debated the rules with the authorities. Yes and had a few hiccups along the way with faulty products. But forum opinions over a current manufacturer?
Izabarack said
02:54 PM Oct 10, 2020
I stayed away from all the Ho Ha by putting a hatch in the side of the campervan and just poke the extension cord in there. Usually only plug the fridge in but use a breakout board if I want to run a couple of 230 Volt items.
The Engel has a fixed male plug as the 230 Volt connection. A relatively short extension cord plugs into that. In turn, a longer extension is usually needed to get to a standard GPO. How does that fit with the discussion about multiple connections? For example, if my Engel is on the floor of the shed, do different interpretations come into effect if the fridge is in the campervan?
Iza
Mike Harding said
04:04 PM Oct 10, 2020
bgt wrote:
But forum opinions over a current manufacturer?
I take your point too bgt :) - I had a great poster some years past it read: "On the internet no one knows you're a dog" :)
But do keep in mind most of the people posting here are at/close to the end of their careers and I'm sure, like me, some here have worked in design and consulting roles and similar and know of companies who are producing products which *do not* meet standards... even if they once passed one. I can assure you many manufacturers change their products but do not submit them for retesting as it's an expensive business and if they fail on a previously unnoticed defect can trigger a recall going back years and bankrupt a company - I've been involved in sorting out a few of those.
The trouble with simple electricity areas (ie 240V and 12V stuff) is everyone on the internet forums who has ever changed the batteries in his torch thinks they know all about it.
bgt said
05:22 PM Oct 10, 2020
Mike back in my days of manufacturing 240-12volt devices once passed they stayed passed. I'm guessing now days with liability, OHS laws etc the onus in now on the manufacturer to keep up to date.
I once had a TAFE teacher tell me our products were illegal. I questioned the authorities who had passed our product. If this was an xxx rated forum I would tell you what they told the TAFE guy to do.
So, can I safely use one of these and still be within all the specifications that have been quoted?
Cheers,
Peter
Iza
OK I'll have one more say on this subject!! Caveat - I'm not qualified or an 'expert' on the subject. (I owned a business that made various electrical items. Include 240 - 12 volt units that needed approvals).
Some years back I was involved in this very same situation. Power cords, extensions etc. I hired a very experienced and expensive city law firm. We/they researched all the various AS/NZS rules and standards. The conclusion was that 'it depends'. It may be in black and white in one standard but contradicted in another. It's possible to buy various power boards, cords etc but it's not always possible/legal to use them. ie in many/some cases it's illegal to use a power board in your own home. Tradies work all the time with cords with extensions on building sites. It's impossible to have one cord that suits all situations. Why would they make or sell extensions cords?
So don't take notice of campfire stories and opinions. Don't believe everything you read on the internet from so called experts. Pick up the phone and call Ampfibian. (Google them). They specialise in RV power cords etc. Phone 1800 342 426. Tell them your situation and get their opinion. One phone call will cost you how much?
bgt,
It's not that easy, they don't answer the phone.
I have one of their 10- 15 amp units and it's excellent so I assumed they would have an answer for you.
For other situations where you must join 2 leads, the X1 Ampfibian meets all electrical requirements for WA as well as the whole of Australia
I do not believe that is true.
As Aus-Kiwi says, it depends on the conductor sizes and the total length. That is why joining leads is NOT permitted. and no gadget can overcome that.
Cheers,
Peter
Looks like we will never get an answer, so we can all continue doing the wrong thing!
Should get Collyn Rivers to write an article on this.
Mamil has given you the facts Jeff, the other comments are pure conjecture.
As an Electrical Contractor I recommend you take no notice of the other unqualified and unsubstantiated statements.
Which is an absolute disgrace! Australian Standards are an adjunct to legislation and compliance with them is often necessary for a product to be sold legally.
However some government or other saw fir to sell off the distribution of standards to the commercial firm SAI Global (not an Oz company btw) and they now enforce copyright and charge a bloody fortune for the sale of standards!
Can you imagine walking in to your local police station and paying $350 to purchase a copy of the Crimes Act in order to check legality of something you wish to do!?
I say a pox on SAI's supposed copyright and I distribute standards willy-nilly - I will check if I have AS3001 and if so I'll put it on a website and post a link.
Government should fix this.
JeffRae who would you rather take notice of? All us "experts" here on a forum or Ampfibian? It's their business. They supply folks like Bunnings. I suspect they know what they are talking about.
Trust me. Ampfibian will have a draw full of certificates, approvals and insurance papers that say they know more than anyone on this forum. Period.
-- Edited by bgt on Friday 9th of October 2020 09:34:52 AM
This is an interesting topic.
The quoted clause 5.1.3 indicates that any attached 5m cable is non-compliant, I'd be asking the manufacturer to fit one not less than 10m.
Personally, I'd rather not have an attached cable at all, I'd rather just have the socket to be able to use an independent cable like I have on my van. What if you have to park a little bit further than 10m? with an independent cable, you can use a longer one, if you can't use an extension cord you are out of luck if you have a permanently attached one. I'm a bit surprised that it must always be more than 10m, if you are closer than 5m, you've got a lot of excess cable lying about but can't use a shorter cable. ??
I've only been camping a couple of times, the power boxes seem very close in the caravan parks I've visited, but I'm sure not everywhere is the same. Or is it? Do caravan parks have to put their power supplies so that caravans don't have to use cords in excess of 10m?
Thanks for the info in this thread. It's enlightening to me as a newbie who is looking to do everything properly and to learn what I need to know.
The "10m rule" (I thought it was 15m, but was probably mistaken) was introduced a few years ago in order to assist in the design of caravan parks to provide some consistency. It came in after the van in question was manufactured and is not retrospective so is not the manufacturer's problem.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 9th of October 2020 09:57:41 AM
Hi Hufnpuff,
This may answer your questions...
The notes to Clause 5.1.3 say... 1. The minimum length is specified for use in caravan parks for the benefit of park designers when they are planning site layouts. 2. In other applications, shorter leads are permitted.
And... Clause 2.2.6.3 Caravan Service pillars, location: Each caravan park service pillar shall be located so as to enable supply leads of the minimum length as specified in clause 5.1.3 to be connected to each applicable site in accordance with clause 5.2.
And... Clause 5.2 Installation of supply lead: Any supply lead shall be arranged so that it will not obstruct persons walking in the vicinity of the transportable structure and shall be either:- (a) located where it will not be subject to mechanical damage or damage by high temperatures or ultraviolet radiation; or (b) provided with suitable protection against mechanical damage or damage by high temperatures or ultraviolet radiation.
-- Edited by Mamil on Friday 9th of October 2020 10:57:41 AM
Another chart:
oh ok, thanks, do owners need to rush off and retrofit or are they ok to continue with what they've got (as long as they don't need longer and can't use an extension cord in which case they'd be out of luck)
Thanks Mamil, the parks I've been to have had the poles really close, you wouldn't need 10m, but it's such a small sample as not to mean much. Given that you shouldn't leave a cord coiled, shorter distances with a long cord doesn't seem desirable.
It is unusual for regulation changes to caravans to be made retrospective, so you should be fine with the gear originally installed.
Cheers,
Peter
4mm²
Eeeerrrr... there are a few of us here who have been in the business for many decades before the share certificate of this company was a gleam in anyone's eye in 2012.
They are not Gods of electricity who are holders of the sole wisdom and should not be presented as such - they have their little issues too:
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recall/amp-fibian-pty-ltd-amp-fibian-circuit-breaker-residual-current-device-rcbo
The Engel has a fixed male plug as the 230 Volt connection. A relatively short extension cord plugs into that. In turn, a longer extension is usually needed to get to a standard GPO. How does that fit with the discussion about multiple connections? For example, if my Engel is on the floor of the shed, do different interpretations come into effect if the fridge is in the campervan?
Iza
I take your point too bgt :) - I had a great poster some years past it read: "On the internet no one knows you're a dog" :)
But do keep in mind most of the people posting here are at/close to the end of their careers and I'm sure, like me, some here have worked in design and consulting roles and similar and know of companies who are producing products which *do not* meet standards... even if they once passed one. I can assure you many manufacturers change their products but do not submit them for retesting as it's an expensive business and if they fail on a previously unnoticed defect can trigger a recall going back years and bankrupt a company - I've been involved in sorting out a few of those.
The trouble with simple electricity areas (ie 240V and 12V stuff) is everyone on the internet forums who has ever changed the batteries in his torch thinks they know all about it.