---

 Hi Bob...you seem not to understand that Paul does not need to shift weight around in his car....he just needs to get weight OFF the towbar and onto his van's axles....he does NOT need to get weight off the rear axle,which is what a WDH does.His rear axle weight is only 1670kg,which is ridiculously low on a car that is towing a van that gives total weight on wheels  of car and van (GCM if you like) of 5440kg. Paul already is approaching his van's ATM,and,as well as taking weight OFF his already underloaded rear axle,a WDH will put  MORE weight onto his van's axle group,perhaps then exceeding his ATM. Level means absolutely nothing,unless your van has non load-sharing suspension.Paul has NO option but to move the weight back in his van,over the axles. The rest naturally falls in to place.I wish you and your kin a  Happy Xmas.Cheers

 

---

 Sorry Chris, wasn't actually referring to Paul's set-up, more the wdh in general, which you don't subscribe to.

Rather than having the chains dragging on the ground, a wdh is a alternate solution if weight is not a problem as in my case.

Merry Xmas.....Bob

No expert here but I had similar issue. Prior to major modifications. Try what I did.

I now travel with about half full tanks. (100 ltrs) Unless I can fill only a short distance from camp. Since your tanks are in front of the axles like many, this will reduce overall van weight and importantly ball weight too.

I carry about 50ltrs of water in the ute, like you I have capacity there. Syphoning into the van is simple once you set up.

Move some stuff from van to the ute.

Do a stocktake and toss out some stuff, it all helps.

Oh, if the van isn't level, i.e. low at front, a WDH might still help. Van and ute should be level.

Dougwe wrote:

---

How about we talk about generators now.

---

 Lol.

pghollis wrote:

---

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and advice. I've just purchased a tow ball scale so I can play around with distributions at home.

I'm just wondering about traveling with half full water tanks. Does the water slosh cause any issues with stability? Full or empty tanks would not have water sloshing from side to side. Does this make any difference? I'm thinking I might try to put a cut off tap to disconnect both tanks and only fill the one closer to the axles of the van to see if that helps. I want to try the cheaper options first before I start moving tanks or batteries around, as this would be a more costly exercise.

---

Buying a towball scale is a good idea.

I often tow with tanks half full. I've had no issues. I think they have baffles.

If you have the ability to just fill the rear tank its a good move.

Plenty of vaners have these issues. But they just don't know because they don't weigh the vans.

Good luck.

oldbloke wrote:

---

pghollis wrote:

---

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and advice. I've just purchased a tow ball scale so I can play around with distributions at home.

I'm just wondering about traveling with half full water tanks. Does the water slosh cause any issues with stability? Full or empty tanks would not have water sloshing from side to side. Does this make any difference? I'm thinking I might try to put a cut off tap to disconnect both tanks and only fill the one closer to the axles of the van to see if that helps. I want to try the cheaper options first before I start moving tanks or batteries around, as this would be a more costly exercise.

---

 Buying a towball scale is a good idea.

 I often tow with tanks half full. I've had no issues. I think they have baffles. 

If you have the ability to just fill the rear tank its a good move.

 Plenty of vanners have these issues. But they just don't know because they don't weigh the vans.

 Good luck.

---

Hi Neil....good points in this post,particularly the comment that "they don't weigh the vans". Towball scales are notoriously inaccurate....I had several different brands,all at the same time,and the variance between them was frightening....I've lost my figures,but the difference was at least 30kg. If you use the bathroom scales method to first accurately calculate your towball weight,make sure that the towball is at the same height above the ground that it is when connected to the car and ready to set sail.Not quite so important with load-sharing suspension.Once you know the actual towball weight,you then can then use your towball scales to check their accuracy,again making sure that the towball is at the same height above the ground once the scales settle. Note:-it doesn't really matter what those scales say,because you already know the real weight.....if the bathroom scales say 300kg,for example,and the towball scales say 330kg,when you check your weights in the future,then you simply load your van until the towball scales show 330kg,knowing that the actual weight is 300kg.Towball scales are much easier to use than are bathroom scales,so once you have established their accuracy,they would suffice during your travels.Cheers

pghollis wrote:

---

OK, so now I'm really scratching my head. I measured the ball weight with the Hayman Reece scales and it reads: 240-250kg !!! Sure, the van probably was exactly level, as I did it on our gravel driveway, but I would have thought it would be within at least 10% of the weigh bridge figure. So I got out our bathroom scales and set up a 2.1m plank of wood sitting on a brick on one end and the scales on the other end and placed the jockey wheel at .7m from the brick (ie. 1/3rd). The measurement on the scales was 92kg. So multiplying that by 3 gives 279kg!!!

So both these figures are nowhere near the 340kg on the weighbridge. The only difference with the van load was that we had two foldup camp chairs in the front boot when we weighed on the bridge (they weigh 5kg each) and perhaps half a bottle of gas.

So I guess its not as bad as I originally thought. Though this then brings up the question of just how accurate the weigh bridge measurements are? Is it common for them to be out by 20-30%? I might have to go back down and spend another $30 and take my trusty towball scales with me.

---

Most weighbridges measure in 20kg increments,and will NEVER be out by 30%.When you measured your  original 340kg towball weight,was the van level,as if the front was up,assuming non-load sharing suspension,that would give you a higher reading.Your original figures did not make a lot of sense,so maybe your problem is not as big as first thought?  It would surely be strange to see a caravan as unbalanced as is yours? Cheers

P.S You no doubt have noticed that your towball scales were out by 30kg? As I said earlier,they are effectively useless if you want accurate figures.

oldbloke wrote:

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If I read this right.
Van = 2460kg

8% = 197kg
10% = 246kg
12% = 295kg

Your in the ball park. Its legal, unlike many.

With packing and unpacking the b an, and changing contents the weight moves around. Its normal.

Go and enjoy the new van. Make sure everything works, 12v, 250v & gas.

Next time you drive past a free Vicroads weighbridge check it then.

---

 Hi Neil....GTM (weight on van wheels) is 2460kg,but the van actually weighs 2800kg.(2460kg plus 340kg towball).This is over 12% towball weight,which might be acceptable with a heavier and more balanced car,but not with a car that has only 1670kg on its rear axle.This combination is so unbalanced that it is simply an accident looking for a place to happen.A WDH would only make things worse,as the LAST thing Paul needs is LESS weight on the car's rear axle,which is what a WDH does....a WDH does NOT change towball weight. Paul has no option but to get more weight onto the van's axle group,reduce his ball weight,and get more weight into his ute's tray Cheerss

oldbloke wrote:

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OK 2800kg

10%= 280kg

Ball weight = 289 to 240kg still looks OK to me!
I think the weighbridge is out by heaps.

---

 Let's hope so,for Paul's sake.In an earlier post,I suggested that around 270kg towball weight would suffice,but we're splitting hairs.It is unlikely,I believe,that any manufacturer would provide a van that had the figures provided in Paul's original post? We can but wait and see! Cheers.

yobarr wrote:

---

travelyounger wrote:

---

pghollis wrote:

---

Hi everyone.

we've just got back from our first outing with the new van (Franklin Razor 206). All went quite well, but I found that the van had a bit of sway when getting passed by trucks and occasionally on bends doing about 90-95km/h. So I'm thinking I may need to invest in a weight distribution hitch. According to the web site the van has the following specs:

• Overall length 8.2m
• Height: 2.9m
• Width:2.4
• ATM: 2870kg
• GTM: 2730kg
• TARE: 2370kg
• Ball weight:140kg

Before heading off we ran it over a weigh bridge and got the following:

Car:

Platform A: 01.46t
Platform B: 01.18t

Ball:
Platform C: 00.34t

Van
Platform D: 02.46t

The car is a 2019 BT-50.

I was a bit surprised by the ball weight from the weighbridge as compared to the advertised weight. The BT50 has a 3500kg tow limit and 350kg ball limit, so we are getting close to that with the ball.

The van has 2 x 90 litre water tanks (which we filled) that are situated front of the axles. It also has two 120AMH batteries in the front boot. It has a tunnel boot accessed from the side, which we had stored bbq and other not so heavy items. The bed is at the front so storage under that will add to the ball weight (we don't haven't stored any heavy items there).

Now I have a few questions to the experts here :).

1. Would a weight distribution hitch help the situation? If so, what hitch would people recommend? It seems Hayman Reese is popular, but expensive. There are others for almost half the price, but if they don't do the job then they are worthless.
2. How could we redistribute the load in the van given most of the weight is water and batteries and the storage areas are all situated at the front? We don't seem to have any reasonable storage areas over the axles.
3. Should I be concerned about the advertised ball limit compared to the actual ball limit?

Thanks in advance and hope everyone has a Merry Xmas and happy new year. Hopefully we will see you out there in the new year when things start opening up again.

Regards Paul.

 

---

Hi Paul

I have the same tow ball weight on my van although mine weighs a bit more and have tried with WDH and without and they do make a difference to my rig especially on roads where lots of truck movement has changed the surface it seems to take the bounce out of the ride also on dirt the braking is much better as the WDH puts weight back onto the front of vehicle . I know this for a fact as I have had the use of a calibrated weighbridge where I have worked and did all the tests on all axles .The difference in weight transfer was minimal on the setting I used which from memory was about ten kilograms on the second chain link but could be greater with more tension.

You do not mention if you have upgraded your BT50 suspension as i know my Dmax stock standard would no way handle a towball weight anywhere near that so therefore spent thousands on a upgrade but thats another story.If not that could be your problem not your vans problems.My last van was similar to your vans setup with leaf spring suspension and did notice they move around a bit more than vans with independent suspension but thats my opinion by having towed both vans over Australia on various surfaces and never noticed any swaying when passing trucks head on except as we all know the wind different trucks and speed will always change this .Trucks overtaking you will always suck you in as they pass the front of the vehicle and as far as I know there is no fix for this.

For a little bit of peace of mind and making the ride much better out on those outback highways I reckon WDH is a small investment in your safety and if you find they dont work dont use them . A tip though use ones you can back with and do u turns otherwise you will get a lot of practice taking them on and off mine are Hayman Reece rated to 340 kg and can jack knife without doing damage I hope you sort out your problems without moving tanks around in your van in my previous van I added a 100 litre tank behind the axle and always travelled with it full but maybe do that after warranty period ends as these caravan builders will use any modifications to get out of liabilities.

Cheers

---

John,with respect,once again you show an absolute misunderstanding of a WDH...why on earth would Paul want to take weight off a rear axle that is currently carrying only  1670kg? Do you not understand that this is dangerous in the extreme,encouraging oversteer? Your car has a GVM of 3600kg, but is set up to carry 2150kg on the rear axle.....Paul's car's rear axle capacity is 1850kg,and he is nowhere near that figure...do you not understand that he needs less towball weight,but more weight in his car's tray? His problem at the moment is that the van is ridiculously unbalanced, with 340kg towball weight and only 2460kg GTM....crazy stuff.And as for your suggestion that Paul add water tanks behind the axles,then all tanks would have to be plumbed separately,and closely monitored to manage ball weight. I did consider that option for Paul,but he cannot do it  because he is already right up on his ATM.....and you seem not to understand that a WDH adds weight to the van's axle group,but does not change towball weight,so it is easy to exceed the  ATM.In my opinion,a WDH is used only by those who are trying to make a car do things for which that car never was designed, and you no doubt have had positive experiences with your customised setup,but in Paul's case,as well as increasing TBO,adding unnecessary weight,and increasing instability,it would be absolutely useless and a waste of money.The only way that Paul can sort his problem is to get the weight in his van ...water tanks or,preferably,batteries.....back over the van's axle group,and get some weight in his ute's tray.His van,at 2800kg,is lighter than his 2980kg car,but the weights are in the wrong places.Hope this helps? Cheers

 Hi Chris

You said that you want to increase payload in the tray to increase weight on axle and reduce towball weight .I always thought that towball weight goes onto your rear axle or am I incorrect .Also fitting a seperate rear tank is no big deal you can have it plumbed to existing tank with an internal two valve or run on a seperate pump with seperate filler 

Cheers John 

 

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 24th of December 2020 08:31:51 AM

---

yobarr wrote:

---

pghollis wrote:

---

OK, so now I'm really scratching my head. I measured the ball weight with the Hayman Reece scales and it reads: 240-250kg !!! Sure, the van probably was exactly level, as I did it on our gravel driveway, but I would have thought it would be within at least 10% of the weigh bridge figure. So I got out our bathroom scales and set up a 2.1m plank of wood sitting on a brick on one end and the scales on the other end and placed the jockey wheel at .7m from the brick (ie. 1/3rd). The measurement on the scales was 92kg. So multiplying that by 3 gives 279kg!!!

So both these figures are nowhere near the 340kg on the weighbridge. The only difference with the van load was that we had two foldup camp chairs in the front boot when we weighed on the bridge (they weigh 5kg each) and perhaps half a bottle of gas.

So I guess its not as bad as I originally thought. Though this then brings up the question of just how accurate the weigh bridge measurements are? Is it common for them to be out by 20-30%? I might have to go back down and spend another $30 and take my trusty towball scales with me.

---

Most weighbridges measure in 20kg increments,and will NEVER be out by 30%.When you measured your  original 340kg towball weight,was the van level,as if the front was up,assuming non-load sharing suspension,that would give you a higher reading.Your original figures did not make a lot of sense,so maybe your problem is not as big as first thought?  It would surely be strange to see a caravan as unbalanced as is yours? Cheers

P.S You no doubt have noticed that your towball scales were out by 30kg? As I said earlier,they are effectively useless if you want accurate figures.

-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 27th of December 2020 05:25:46 PM

---

 Hi 

Just a comment on accuracy of the weighbridge, ball scales, bathroom scales. I would believe with some knowledge of calibration and measuring forces that they are most likely all wrong. Out by 30%, hmm that depends on 30% of what ?? The weighbridge is possibly max of 20T (or bigger) and  ~300K/20000Kg is 1.5% and 30Kg is 0.15%.  So you are measuring in the bottom 1.5% of its capacity and that is below the calibration range!! So treat that reading and others similar with caution. The fact that the reading is a digital readout means just that, it is digital not necessarily accurate. Hmm 

The bathroom scales on the other hand are being asked to accept a weight more than twice the max. So you can construct a lever system to reduce it by 3. Hmm how accurate ? As good as the operator I suggest and with extra allowance for the actual scales errors. But that is able to be calibrated by putting a known weight, eg the operator on and checking. A known weight measured how ? The doctors old scales ?

The towball scales. Well some calibration might be in order because they possibly did not get one done at the factory in China. Just a guess. 

Cheers, my suggestion is use a bit of common sense in your measuring and do not fall for the digital accuracy pitfall.

Jaahn       

travelyounger wrote:

---

yobarr wrote:

---

travelyounger wrote:

---

pghollis wrote:

---

Hi everyone.

we've just got back from our first outing with the new van (Franklin Razor 206). All went quite well, but I found that the van had a bit of sway when getting passed by trucks and occasionally on bends doing about 90-95km/h. So I'm thinking I may need to invest in a weight distribution hitch. According to the web site the van has the following specs:

• Overall length 8.2m
• Height: 2.9m
• Width:2.4
• ATM: 2870kg
• GTM: 2730kg
• TARE: 2370kg
• Ball weight:140kg

Before heading off we ran it over a weigh bridge and got the following:

Car:

Platform A: 01.46t
Platform B: 01.18t

Ball:
Platform C: 00.34t

Van
Platform D: 02.46t

The car is a 2019 BT-50.

I was a bit surprised by the ball weight from the weighbridge as compared to the advertised weight. The BT50 has a 3500kg tow limit and 350kg ball limit, so we are getting close to that with the ball.

The van has 2 x 90 litre water tanks (which we filled) that are situated front of the axles. It also has two 120AMH batteries in the front boot. It has a tunnel boot accessed from the side, which we had stored bbq and other not so heavy items. The bed is at the front so storage under that will add to the ball weight (we don't haven't stored any heavy items there).

Now I have a few questions to the experts here :).

1. Would a weight distribution hitch help the situation? If so, what hitch would people recommend? It seems Hayman Reese is popular, but expensive. There are others for almost half the price, but if they don't do the job then they are worthless.
2. How could we redistribute the load in the van given most of the weight is water and batteries and the storage areas are all situated at the front? We don't seem to have any reasonable storage areas over the axles.
3. Should I be concerned about the advertised ball limit compared to the actual ball limit?

Thanks in advance and hope everyone has a Merry Xmas and happy new year. Hopefully we will see you out there in the new year when things start opening up again.

Regards Paul.

 

---

Hi Paul

I have the same tow ball weight on my van although mine weighs a bit more and have tried with WDH and without and they do make a difference to my rig especially on roads where lots of truck movement has changed the surface it seems to take the bounce out of the ride also on dirt the braking is much better as the WDH puts weight back onto the front of vehicle . I know this for a fact as I have had the use of a calibrated weighbridge where I have worked and did all the tests on all axles .The difference in weight transfer was minimal on the setting I used which from memory was about ten kilograms on the second chain link but could be greater with more tension.

You do not mention if you have upgraded your BT50 suspension as i know my Dmax stock standard would no way handle a towball weight anywhere near that so therefore spent thousands on a upgrade but thats another story.If not that could be your problem not your vans problems.My last van was similar to your vans setup with leaf spring suspension and did notice they move around a bit more than vans with independent suspension but thats my opinion by having towed both vans over Australia on various surfaces and never noticed any swaying when passing trucks head on except as we all know the wind different trucks and speed will always change this .Trucks overtaking you will always suck you in as they pass the front of the vehicle and as far as I know there is no fix for this.

For a little bit of peace of mind and making the ride much better out on those outback highways I reckon WDH is a small investment in your safety and if you find they dont work dont use them . A tip though use ones you can back with and do u turns otherwise you will get a lot of practice taking them on and off mine are Hayman Reece rated to 340 kg and can jack knife without doing damage I hope you sort out your problems without moving tanks around in your van in my previous van I added a 100 litre tank behind the axle and always travelled with it full but maybe do that after warranty period ends as these caravan builders will use any modifications to get out of liabilities.

Cheers

---

John,with respect,once again you show an absolute misunderstanding of a WDH...why on earth would Paul want to take weight off a rear axle that is currently carrying only  1670kg? Do you not understand that this is dangerous in the extreme,encouraging oversteer? Your car has a GVM of 3600kg, but is set up to carry 2150kg on the rear axle.....Paul's car's rear axle capacity is 1850kg,and he is nowhere near that figure...do you not understand that he needs less towball weight,but more weight in his car's tray? His problem at the moment is that the van is ridiculously unbalanced, with 340kg towball weight and only 2460kg GTM....crazy stuff.And as for your suggestion that Paul add water tanks behind the axles,then all tanks would have to be plumbed separately,and closely monitored to manage ball weight. I did consider that option for Paul,but he cannot do it  because he is already right up on his ATM.....and you seem not to understand that a WDH adds weight to the van's axle group,but does not change towball weight,so it is easy to exceed the  ATM.In my opinion,a WDH is used only by those who are trying to make a car do things for which that car never was designed, and you no doubt have had positive experiences with your customised setup,but in Paul's case,as well as increasing TBO,adding unnecessary weight,and increasing instability,it would be absolutely useless and a waste of money.The only way that Paul can sort his problem is to get the weight in his van ...water tanks or,preferably,batteries.....back over the van's axle group,and get some weight in his ute's tray.His van,at 2800kg,is lighter than his 2980kg car,but the weights are in the wrong places.Hope this helps? Cheers

 Hi Chris

You said that you want to increase payload in the tray to increase weight on axle and reduce towball weight .I always thought that towball weight goes onto your rear axle or am I incorrect .Also fitting a seperate rear tank is no big deal you can have it plumbed to existing tank with an internal two valve or run on a seperate pump with seperate filler 

Cheers John

-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 24th of December 2020 08:31:51 AM

---

 Hi John...Whilst towball weight does indeed go onto a car's rear axle,and is usually multiplied by around 145% depending on wheelbase and towball overhang,the dynamics are completely different from having a load in the car's tub/tray. The effects of having a 340kg weight levering down on the back of a car is a lot different from having weight directly over that car's rear axle......think 'levers'.When loading a caravan,it is important that weight be kept away from both the extremities of the van,and is concentrated more over the axles.The more weight you have at either end,or both ends,of the van,the more the van will be affected by yaw.....side to side movement,or the "sway" that Paul refers to.Hanging 340kg around 5 metres ahead of the rear axis of a 2800kg van with a GTM of 2460kg is asking for trouble,particularly with Paul's car having only about 1670kg (calculated) weight on its rear axle.....think oversteer.The car needs to have more weight on its rear axle,but towball weight has to be reduced.....if Paul tries anything else,he will end up chasing his tail.Your comment about fitting a separate rear tank is good,but any such tank(s) must be as close as possible to the van's axles to minimise the effects of yaw.....and remember,Paul is right up on his ATM already,so can't add much weight.. Personally,I'd simply move the batteries to a position over the van's axle group.Simple really! Jaahn's comments about inaccuracy of various types of scales may have some merit,but where do you draw the line? The 30% difference referred to the fact that Paul used 3 different methods to measure his towball weight.The weighbridge showed 340kg,Hayman Reece scales showed 250kg,and the bathroom scales showed 279kg.....this,I believe,is where the suggestion that the weighbridge was out by 30% originated? Again I will suggest that it is unlikely that any reputable manufacturer would market a van that is as unbalanced,and unsafe,as is Paul's. Perhaps he could save himself a lot of heartache by trying another couple of weighbridges,but no matter what the results,he must get more weight onto the tray.....Cheers.

oldbloke wrote:

---

Yobarr, OP
Two weighing methods suggest the TBW is about right. The third, the weighbridge says its very high.
As Jaahan stated none will be precise, but my bet is the weighbridge is way out. The tbw is at the least sensitive/accurate end of its scale.
Before any significant changes are made to the van I'd suggest he check the TBW with another scale. Or check the towball scale with a known weight

---

Hi Neil...giod advice.I've said all along that something wasn't right with Paul's weights.As you suggest,weighing 340kg (+/- 20kg) on a 20 ton weighbridge will never work! What Paul could do is weigh car's rear axle with van on,and then again with van disconnected and parked elsewhere.This will show how much weight was added to rear axle by towball weight,so it then is simple to calculate actual towball weight.My percentage increase,with 1250mm TBO,is 139% but Pauls will be different.Cheers 

boab wrote:

---

just go to an engineering works and have your draw bar extended that will lower the tow ball weight make your van better towing and solve your problem / now watch yobarr go berserk

---

What a great idea! Perhaps you would be kind enough to enlighten us as to how much a 300mm draw bar expension would lower towball weight on a van that measures 5 metres from towball to rear axis? Negligible,but it cannot be denied that doing so certainly would improve stability. However,simply putting the batteries over the axles and getting more weight into the tray would solve all Paul's issues.....but I still reckon that his towball weight is lower than the weighbridge figure suggests,and the car is getting flicked around simply because it does not have enough weight on the rear axle.With a (calculated) weight of 1670kg on the car's rear axle,WDH is the last thing he needs.IF his towball weight is indeed 340kg,when he connects the van,he will transfer around 150-160kg from the front axle to the rear.This means his front axle weight still will be over 1300kg,which is plenty for a car that has weight on wheels of under 3000kg.My car sits solid as a rock with 1350kg only on the front axle,even though my weight on wheels,at 3650kg,is over 22% greater than is Paul's.Cheers

yobarr wrote:

Hi Neil...giod advice.I've said all along that something wasn't right with Paul's weights.As you suggest,weighing 340kg (+/- 20kg) on a 20 ton weighbridge will never work! What Paul could do is weigh car's rear axle with van on,and then again with van disconnected and parked elsewhere.This will show how much weight was added to rear axle by towball weight,so it then is simple to calculate actual towball weight.My percentage increase,with 1250mm TBO,is 139% but Pauls will be different.Cheers 

-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 29th of December 2020 11:34:34 AM

---

 That would be a better method. That's how I weighed mine. That way closer to what the scale is designed for.

However, your still using a sale that is questionable.

A couple of alternatives to consider.

1. Go to a different weigh bridge.

2. Weigh your self on 2 or 3 sets of scales. Get a weight and with difficulty weight yourself on the TB scale and compare. Im assuming OP weighs at least 90kg. Jaahan will disagree but its a basic check. Don't fall off. Lol

3. Borrow another TB scale.

This thread is getting nowhere fast so how about we change the subject

 

Dougwe wrote:

---

This thread is getting nowhere fast so how about we change the subject

 

---

 Hi Doug...you no doubt are aware that there is no compulsion to read any post,or indeed,any thread? Cheers

Dougwe wrote:

---

This thread is getting nowhere fast so how about we change the subject

 

---

 and the prize goes to