I don't miss darkroom chemicals for film. Still surprised how quickly digital superseded film.
Described now as "the Kodak moment". It was not recognised at the time.
The "Kodak moment" for coal has passed, but most don't yet see it.
Those massive coal mines are doing more damage that solar panels will ever do.
Cheers,
Peter
Jaahn said
06:07 PM Mar 10, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Everything is recyclable if it needs to be. It is only a question of what into and the dollars. Again, people are cherry picking small issues from an emerging technology when there are more serious issues that they seem happy to forget. Yes, I am sure that renewable energy and electric vehicles will introduce some new problems, but they will take away some huge ones at the same time. Cheers, Peter
Hi
Well said Peter
I am amazed at the fossil fools we get on here. I might have thought that older people with some life experience would be able to view things a bit more even handedly, but I am mistaken obviously. All NIMBYs !
I am reminded of the biblical saying from a well known sermon. (One translation); Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, Let me take the speck out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye.
Hmm not often do I resort to biblical quotation these days.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 10th of March 2021 06:11:08 PM
All very admirable and a great cause to save the planet!
Now let's get down to reality.
Probably 80% of caravans in Australia have timber frames. These guys are in the business of survival in a very competitive industry. Saving the planet is not number 1 on their priority list.
20% of vans manufactured have either alloy frames or full sandwich construction....but why do they only represent such a small percentage..is it price, don't care, better construction or other.
More to the real point instead of beating the save the planet drum how would you suggest we change the present situation....or perhaps it's the best alternative at the moment....80% of buyers seem to think so.
Bow said
08:19 AM Mar 11, 2021
and what is sandwich panel construction manufactured from?
Whenarewethere said
08:30 AM Mar 11, 2021
montie wrote:
is it price, don't care, better construction or other.
'Other'
I worked for a very large company. "because we have always done it that way"
The company imploded in Australia.
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:37 AM Mar 11, 2021
Bow wrote:
and what is sandwich panel construction manufactured from?
There are various types. I consider the best to be fibreglass skins with closed cell polyurethane foam core.
Peter, what is the base raw product and the pollution generated from its manufacture?
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:03 AM Mar 11, 2021
Bow wrote:
Peter, what is the base raw product and the pollution generated from its manufacture?
The base raw material for fibreglass is silica sand, the most common element on the planet. Polyurethane is a synthetic plastic.
You could ask that question of every manufactured product in the world.
The chemicals in treated timber, the power hungry aluminium, the glue that holds the lining and floor together, the lino on the floor of your caravan for starters.
Cheers,
Peter
Bow said
11:39 AM Mar 11, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Bow wrote:
Peter, what is the base raw product and the pollution generated from its manufacture?
The base raw material for fibreglass is silica sand, the most common element on the planet. Polyurethane is a synthetic plastic.
You could ask that question of every manufactured product in the world.
The chemicals in treated timber, the power hungry aluminium, the glue that holds the lining and floor together, the lino on the floor of your caravan for starters.
Cheers,
Peter
Plastic is not friendly to the environmen.
Whenarewethere said
11:58 AM Mar 11, 2021
Paint on car & caravan bodies. Electrical wire, switches, plugs, light fittings & conduit. Plumbing lines & tanks. Fuel tanks. Carpet. Foam in cushions. Acrylic windows & skylights. Air conditioning HEPA filters. Air line hoses. Awnings. Toilet fittings. & Shoes running around looking for green products if you are not using leather shoes!
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:26 PM Mar 11, 2021
Bow wrote:
Plastic is not friendly to the environmen.
So don't put it into the environment. Don't blame the material for the actions of careless and uncaring people.
Sandwich panel is probably fairly safe from that perspective. Firstly it has a very long use life that extends into decades, not 5 minutes like most of the problem plastics that find their way into the environment. Secondly, when they reach end of life they are probably in an environment that allows their collection and disposal in a more appropriate way.
Larger volumes of similar materials are easier to dispose of appropriately than a jumble of small quantities of mixed materials like you would find in a typical wrecked timber framed caravan.
Cheers,
Peter
bgt said
04:06 PM Mar 11, 2021
Year's ago, in my yachting days, there was balsa core products. Used for hulls and decks. Plenty of products out there. Just depends on how much you want to pay. But I would bet that a caravan made with high tech products would come with a high tech price. And low price units sell.
peter67 said
05:43 PM Mar 11, 2021
As mentioned above I don't see a problem using laminated balsa core or properly (two pack epoxy) laminated plantation timber in all types of light weight construction plus I have a question for more knowledgeable members here. When they outlawed the old style house light bulbs why did they do that, and the new one's didn't fit inside (to long) existing ceiling shades and apparently these new types are harder to recycle?? plus they cost many times more than the old style one's.
ps when is someone going to bring out Greta Thunberg toilet rolls?
-- Edited by peter67 on Thursday 11th of March 2021 05:59:12 PM
Peter_n_Margaret said
05:48 PM Mar 11, 2021
bgt wrote:
Year's ago, in my yachting days, there was balsa core products. Used for hulls and decks. Plenty of products out there. Just depends on how much you want to pay. But I would bet that a caravan made with high tech products would come with a high tech price. And low price units sell.
Yes, sandwich panels have been around a long time. In 1963, the Germans began mass producing high performance gliders using balsa cores, but changed to a PVC foam in 1969. Boeing is just catching up now.
I built the OKA camper body using sandwich panel in 2004. I am starting another one now. The sandwich panel will cost about $9,000, maybe a bit less. That is for a one off build.
It is also now possible to have the sandwich panel cut to the exact shapes required to within +/- 0.1mm on a huge CNC router, including holes for windows etc. It then comes to the builder like a big IKEA flat pack and it can be simply glued together. Very fast and very accurate build that way which saves a huge amount of time. All made in Australia.
I think that the issue is that neither the majority of builders nor customers appreciate the massive benefits from these materials in speed, accuracy, strength, toughness, durability, a great finish and superior insulation.
Cheers,
Peter
peter67 said
06:05 PM Mar 11, 2021
Peter, the vast majority of products Australians buy are imported from China, we all do it because price is king. Not trying to be offensive but a friend suggested a while back that the bottled water industry is not actually selling you water, it's producing plastic that makes them the most money.
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:07 PM Mar 11, 2021
On another thread I just posted this.... In 2018-2019 I had a $90,000 claim when the OKA rolled own a steep hill with no one in it.
It took out several trees including one 300mm in diameter and launched itself airborne across a creek. The front axle housing and axle snapped like a carrot when it hit the bank on the opposite side, most of the front sheet metal including the bumper bar was destroyed. The chassis was bent. Two windows frames were torn out of the side of the body and were destroyed and two solar panels on the roof were bent.
The 3mm thick aluminium trims on the front of the sandwich panel bed-over-cab were both badly bent and had to be replaced.
Not a pretty sight. Repairs took 8 months.
There was virtually ZERO damage to the sandwich panel body itself. Some minor gel coat scratches down the sides from the trees were all polished out. Personally, I can not comprehend the use of any other material.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:41 PM Mar 11, 2021
peter67 wrote:
Peter, the vast majority of products Australians buy are imported from China, we all do it because price is king. Not trying to be offensive but a friend suggested a while back that the bottled water industry is not actually selling you water, it's producing plastic that makes them the most money.
I think ALL motorhome bodies, from the cheapest to the most expensive, are sandwich panel of some kind.
And at least 2 of the caravan bodies that originate in China are sandwich panel (maybe not the best sandwich panel, but sandwich panel none the less). If what some people think about the cost of sandwich panel is true, why aren't they stick and tin construction? I think there is a very real and very great chance that very soon Chinese sandwich panel caravans will not only be cheaper than OZ made stick and tin ones, but substantially better and substantially stronger and lighter too.
We are still in the dark ages with caravan construction. Cars stopped using wood 100 years ago and all cars have been monocoque construction for a very long time.
I suspect you are correct about the bottled water. Sad.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Thursday 11th of March 2021 06:42:38 PM
bgt said
06:47 PM Mar 11, 2021
As I mentioned above many years ago we built yachts with balsa core using the West apoxies. Also a large yacht with Airex. (Correct spelling?) But the point is that RVs don't have to be built with sticks, staples and glue. The means and material has been around for years. But there's a price point where Australians say "nope". And I'm afraid that price point is more important than quality.
Greg 1 said
06:59 PM Mar 11, 2021
So getting back to the original post.
Timber is very eco friendly particularly if it's from plantation timber.
Every product has a total carbon footprint from cradle to grave and of the three main van construction methods, timber, aluminium and composite, timber comes up trumps for the most eco friendly.
Aluminium is quite dirty across the early stages of it's life cycle as are composite panels and composites are difficult to recycle.
Yes the glass reinforcement in composites comes from silica sand but the resins bonding it all together, which make up a major proportion if the structure are dirty in their manufacture and difficult to dispose of. Presently recycling the glass in composites is uneconomic. It's hard enough to get rid of off cuts from the glass industry which has massive volumes compared to composites.
You cannot just look at one bit of a products life cycle that appears very green. You have to go well beyond that and look at what pollution it generates to produce it, what it generates during it's useful life and what is generated in it's disposal.
I did quite a bit of this sort of work in the window industry. When you get down to the last bit of transport and digging up minerals etc it's surprising just how little green some products are that make very large claims about being eco friendly.
Plain Truth said
07:55 PM Mar 11, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Bow wrote:
Peter, what is the base raw product and the pollution generated from its manufacture?
The base raw material for fibreglass is silica sand, the most common element on the planet. Polyurethane is a synthetic plastic.
You could ask that question of every manufactured product in the world.
The chemicals in treated timber, the power hungry aluminium, the glue that holds the lining and floor together, the lino on the floor of your caravan for starters.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter the panels contain plastic and glue ,so stop trying to make others feel guilty over their choose of frame.
And Jaahn talks about taking the splinter out of someones eye when they have a plank in their own,I suppose the panels you use have environmental friendly plastic and glue.
Peter the panels contain plastic and glue ,so stop trying to make others feel guilty over their choose of frame.
And Jaahn talks about taking the splinter out of someones eye when they have a plank in their own,I suppose the panels you use have environmental friendly plastic and glue.
All caravans, all motorhomes, all cars, all trucks, all houses contain a variety of plastics and glues and lots of them. I made no claims about the environmental attributes either way about my choice or any one else's.
Cheers,
Peter
montie said
10:21 PM Mar 11, 2021
So is the consensus here then that timber frame vans do not harm the environment any more than other alternatives.?
That being the case what other disadvantages does Meranti frame have over the alternatives?
Grandad5 said
08:17 AM Mar 12, 2021
Be specific Montie, please. Timber frames from plantation timbers grown here in Australia are eco friendly. Meranti is a whole different question.
Jim
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:57 AM Mar 12, 2021
montie wrote:
So is the consensus here then that timber frame vans do not harm the environment any more than other alternatives.?
That being the case what other disadvantages does Meranti frame have over the alternatives?
Montie, I don't think it is reasonable to assess the "eco friendliness" of a caravan (or anything else) on the basis of a single component of that product. It is much more involved that that.
A lighter van is more eco friendly because it uses less fuel to tow on the road.
A better insulated van is more eco friendly because it uses less power to cool in the caravan park.
A white van is more eco friendly in Australia because it stays cooler in summer than a grey van where the opposite might be true in Europe because it stays warmer.
A solar powered van is more eco friendly than one relying on a generator.
Of course "marketing" people will pick on one of these features in isolation and emphasize that while ignoring all the negatives.
Cheers,
Peter
montie said
10:43 AM Mar 12, 2021
Grandad5 wrote:
Be specific Montie, please. Timber frames from plantation timbers grown here in Australia are eco friendly. Meranti is a whole different question.
Jim
I'm an RV dealer not an environmentalist!
Now it's probably fair to say the same applies to the majority of van manufacturers.
I think we have established that the use of timber in the caravan manufacturing process is as eco friendly as the use of any other product, which is the subject of this thread.
As Peter has pointed out though, if we look beyond just the van's frame there are other advantages in using different products to build more eco friendly vans.
The big question is...who initiates this change to more eco friendly materials? The consumer doesn't seem to care which means the manufacturers have no reason to change.
As a dealer if I have a lighter, well insulated more eco friendly van to offer and it's $10k dearer than the dealer down the road I lose the sale!
-- Edited by montie on Friday 12th of March 2021 10:46:50 AM
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:13 AM Mar 12, 2021
I actually think many people are interested in being more environmentally friendly, but they also need the benefits to them personally to be pointed out.
The benefits include saving fuel dollars, being more comfortable, needing a smaller A/C, not being ostracised by the neighbours by making less noise.
And of course with the timber aspect, no leaks, no rot, no maintenance. Keep a leaking, rotting van in the back corner of the yard. "Do you want to buy something that might look like this in 10 years?"
Easy sell I reckon?
Cheers,
Peter
montie said
01:54 PM Mar 12, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
I actually think many people are interested in being more environmentally friendly, but they also need the benefits to them personally to be pointed out. The benefits include saving fuel dollars, being more comfortable, needing a smaller A/C, not being ostracised by the neighbours by making less noise. And of course with the timber aspect, no leaks, no rot, no maintenance. Keep a leaking, rotting van in the back corner of the yard. "Do you want to buy something that might look like this in 10 years?" Easy sell I reckon? Cheers, Peter
One of the golden rules of selling.....sell the features, advantages and benefits of your product. Never bag the opposition product, you immediately lose credibility.
KJB said
01:57 PM Mar 12, 2021
montie wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
I actually think many people are interested in being more environmentally friendly, but they also need the benefits to them personally to be pointed out. The benefits include saving fuel dollars, being more comfortable, needing a smaller A/C, not being ostracised by the neighbours by making less noise. And of course with the timber aspect, no leaks, no rot, no maintenance. Keep a leaking, rotting van in the back corner of the yard. "Do you want to buy something that might look like this in 10 years?" Easy sell I reckon? Cheers, Peter
One of the golden rules of selling.....sell the features, advantages and benefits of your product. Never bag the opposition product, you immediately lose credibility.
Described now as "the Kodak moment". It was not recognised at the time.
The "Kodak moment" for coal has passed, but most don't yet see it.
Those massive coal mines are doing more damage that solar panels will ever do.
Cheers,
Peter
Hi
Well said Peter
I am amazed at the fossil fools we get on here. I might have thought that older people with some life experience would be able to view things a bit more even handedly, but I am mistaken obviously.
All NIMBYs !
I am reminded of the biblical saying from a well known sermon. (One translation); Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, Let me take the speck out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye.
Hmm not often do I resort to biblical quotation these days.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 10th of March 2021 06:11:08 PM
All very admirable and a great cause to save the planet!
Now let's get down to reality.
Probably 80% of caravans in Australia have timber frames. These guys are in the business of survival in a very competitive industry. Saving the planet is not number 1 on their priority list.
20% of vans manufactured have either alloy frames or full sandwich construction....but why do they only represent such a small percentage..is it price, don't care, better construction or other.
More to the real point instead of beating the save the planet drum how would you suggest we change the present situation....or perhaps it's the best alternative at the moment....80% of buyers seem to think so.
'Other'
I worked for a very large company. "because we have always done it that way"
The company imploded in Australia.
There are various types. I consider the best to be fibreglass skins with closed cell polyurethane foam core.
Cheers,
Peter
The base raw material for fibreglass is silica sand, the most common element on the planet. Polyurethane is a synthetic plastic.
You could ask that question of every manufactured product in the world.
The chemicals in treated timber, the power hungry aluminium, the glue that holds the lining and floor together, the lino on the floor of your caravan for starters.
Cheers,
Peter
Plastic is not friendly to the environmen.
Paint on car & caravan bodies. Electrical wire, switches, plugs, light fittings & conduit. Plumbing lines & tanks. Fuel tanks. Carpet. Foam in cushions. Acrylic windows & skylights. Air conditioning HEPA filters. Air line hoses. Awnings. Toilet fittings. & Shoes running around looking for green products if you are not using leather shoes!
So don't put it into the environment. Don't blame the material for the actions of careless and uncaring people.
Sandwich panel is probably fairly safe from that perspective. Firstly it has a very long use life that extends into decades, not 5 minutes like most of the problem plastics that find their way into the environment. Secondly, when they reach end of life they are probably in an environment that allows their collection and disposal in a more appropriate way.
Larger volumes of similar materials are easier to dispose of appropriately than a jumble of small quantities of mixed materials like you would find in a typical wrecked timber framed caravan.
Cheers,
Peter
As mentioned above I don't see a problem using laminated balsa core or properly (two pack epoxy) laminated plantation timber in all types of light weight construction plus I have a question for more knowledgeable members here. When they outlawed the old style house light bulbs why did they do that, and the new one's didn't fit inside (to long) existing ceiling shades and apparently these new types are harder to recycle?? plus they cost many times more than the old style one's.
ps when is someone going to bring out Greta Thunberg toilet rolls?
-- Edited by peter67 on Thursday 11th of March 2021 05:59:12 PM
Yes, sandwich panels have been around a long time. In 1963, the Germans began mass producing high performance gliders using balsa cores, but changed to a PVC foam in 1969. Boeing is just catching up now.
I built the OKA camper body using sandwich panel in 2004. I am starting another one now. The sandwich panel will cost about $9,000, maybe a bit less. That is for a one off build.
It is also now possible to have the sandwich panel cut to the exact shapes required to within +/- 0.1mm on a huge CNC router, including holes for windows etc. It then comes to the builder like a big IKEA flat pack and it can be simply glued together. Very fast and very accurate build that way which saves a huge amount of time. All made in Australia.
I think that the issue is that neither the majority of builders nor customers appreciate the massive benefits from these materials in speed, accuracy, strength, toughness, durability, a great finish and superior insulation.
Cheers,
Peter
On another thread I just posted this....
It took out several trees including one 300mm in diameter and launched itself airborne across a creek. The front axle housing and axle snapped like a carrot when it hit the bank on the opposite side, most of the front sheet metal including the bumper bar was destroyed. The chassis was bent. Two windows frames were torn out of the side of the body and were destroyed and two solar panels on the roof were bent.
The 3mm thick aluminium trims on the front of the sandwich panel bed-over-cab were both badly bent and had to be replaced.
Not a pretty sight. Repairs took 8 months.
There was virtually ZERO damage to the sandwich panel body itself. Some minor gel coat scratches down the sides from the trees were all polished out. Personally, I can not comprehend the use of any other material.
Cheers,
Peter
I think ALL motorhome bodies, from the cheapest to the most expensive, are sandwich panel of some kind.
And at least 2 of the caravan bodies that originate in China are sandwich panel (maybe not the best sandwich panel, but sandwich panel none the less). If what some people think about the cost of sandwich panel is true, why aren't they stick and tin construction? I think there is a very real and very great chance that very soon Chinese sandwich panel caravans will not only be cheaper than OZ made stick and tin ones, but substantially better and substantially stronger and lighter too.
We are still in the dark ages with caravan construction. Cars stopped using wood 100 years ago and all cars have been monocoque construction for a very long time.
I suspect you are correct about the bottled water. Sad.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Thursday 11th of March 2021 06:42:38 PM
Peter the panels contain plastic and glue ,so stop trying to make others feel guilty over their choose of frame.
And Jaahn talks about taking the splinter out of someones eye when they have a plank in their own,I suppose the panels you use have environmental friendly plastic and glue.
All caravans, all motorhomes, all cars, all trucks, all houses contain a variety of plastics and glues and lots of them.
I made no claims about the environmental attributes either way about my choice or any one else's.
Cheers,
Peter
That being the case what other disadvantages does Meranti frame have over the alternatives?
Jim
Montie, I don't think it is reasonable to assess the "eco friendliness" of a caravan (or anything else) on the basis of a single component of that product. It is much more involved that that.
A lighter van is more eco friendly because it uses less fuel to tow on the road.
A better insulated van is more eco friendly because it uses less power to cool in the caravan park.
A white van is more eco friendly in Australia because it stays cooler in summer than a grey van where the opposite might be true in Europe because it stays warmer.
A solar powered van is more eco friendly than one relying on a generator.
Of course "marketing" people will pick on one of these features in isolation and emphasize that while ignoring all the negatives.
Cheers,
Peter
I'm an RV dealer not an environmentalist!
Now it's probably fair to say the same applies to the majority of van manufacturers.
I think we have established that the use of timber in the caravan manufacturing process is as eco friendly as the use of any other product, which is the subject of this thread.
As Peter has pointed out though, if we look beyond just the van's frame there are other advantages in using different products to build more eco friendly vans.
The big question is...who initiates this change to more eco friendly materials? The consumer doesn't seem to care which means the manufacturers have no reason to change.
As a dealer if I have a lighter, well insulated more eco friendly van to offer and it's $10k dearer than the dealer down the road I lose the sale!
-- Edited by montie on Friday 12th of March 2021 10:46:50 AM
The benefits include saving fuel dollars, being more comfortable, needing a smaller A/C, not being ostracised by the neighbours by making less noise.
And of course with the timber aspect, no leaks, no rot, no maintenance. Keep a leaking, rotting van in the back corner of the yard. "Do you want to buy something that might look like this in 10 years?"
Easy sell I reckon?
Cheers,
Peter
One of the golden rules of selling.....sell the features, advantages and benefits of your product. Never bag the opposition product, you immediately lose credibility.
Heartily agree with you Montie......KB