BAZZA44 wrote:

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bgt no mention of axle weights in that article. I stand by what I said.

Barry

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 Hi Baz.You are correct with your assertions that a Ram 1500 cannot SAFELY tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer.Rear axle capacity was,until very recently,only 1770kg,which is less than most of the lightweight twin-cab utes running around the country.Recently,that limit was raised to 1860kg,I believe? Last year I wrote to Ram,asking about weights,and received all sorts of useful info from them,but after I then asked them to explain to me how a Ram 1500 could safely tow 4500kg as a PIG trailer,I received no further correspondence.Cheers

yobarr wrote:

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BAZZA44 wrote:

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bgt no mention of axle weights in that article. I stand by what I said.

Barry

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 Hi Baz.You are correct with your assertions that a Ram 1500 cannot SAFELY tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer.Rear axle capacity was,until very recently,only 1770kg,which is less than most of the lightweight twin-cab utes running around the country.Recently,that limit was raised to 1860kg,I believe? Last year I wrote to Ram,asking about weights,and received all sorts of useful info from them,but after I asked them to explain to me how a Ram 1500 could safely tow 4500kg as a PIG trailer,I received no further correspondence.Cheer

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 Once again it is Company promotional advertising ....potential buyers , do your your homework ....it is your money on the line after all....

bgt wrote:

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KJB you nailed it. Do your sums.

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As Kerry says,do your sums,but more importantly,listen to those who know what they're talking about,rather than listening to those with vested interests, who will tell you only what you want to hear.Cheers

Is that $150k budget for just the 4WD or for the van & WD?

$120k would get you a new 200 series LC, if you can find one, leaving only $30k for a van.

bgt wrote:

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So when there's an accident with a vehicle that the manufacturer promotes as being capable of "up to" xxx the manufacturer becomes liable for false and misleading information. I can just see the insurance companies jumping on that one. Or have they already? So who is ultimately responsible?

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 The "out" for any manufacturer is that the vehicle IS capable of towing the rated capacity,but ONLY as a DOG trailer.Never,SAFELY,as a PIG trailer because of lightweight rear axles on these cars.Earlier today I explained the process elsewhere on the forum.Cheers

P.S The "out" for the manufacturers is that their vehicles CAN tow the quoted figures,but ONLY as a DOG trailer.As a PIG trailer they NEVER can safely tow the quoted figures because of lightweight rear axles. The tow rating is based around the ability of any vehicle,loaded to its GCM,to be able to move from a standing start on a 6% grade (?) and continue as the grade increases to 20%.(?) These figures are from memory,and may not be exact, but the procedure is correct.This is how manufacturers legally dupe customers.Cheerd

Hi boab

They are owned by an Indian company (as are Jaguar) but manufactured in France and the UK NOT India.

Cupie wrote:

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Is that $150k budget for just the 4WD or for the van & WD?

 

$120k would get you a new 200 series LC, if you can find one, leaving only $30k for a van.

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 Nobody has asked what ATM van the OP proposes to tow.None of the suggested vehicles can SAFELY tow more than about 3000kg,despite what the claimed towing capacities are.Happy to explain this if needed.Unfortunately,it is very easy to be misled by advice from people who have only the best intentions,but this often results in severe financial and personal loss.Cheers

bgt wrote:

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Exactly Yobarr. We all assume a 3500kg van. So all the recommendations, mine included, are all hypothetical. Unless a combination is stated no conclusion can be come to. Heck my Jeep is a winner. But only up to 1700kg.

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 Great to see that at least one member understands towing limitations! Cheers

Freelander towing limit 2000kg with 3700kg payload, then the trailer. My car is white. Apparently the car had no issues!

Land drover Defender, 1977-80 model ex-army maybe, but that would be my dream tow vehicle, and if I was to tow a 3.5 tonne van. I would go with an F1, 6 wheel drive International. Which you could leave the van in Cooktown, and go your hardest on the worst tracks all the way to the tip. I am serious about this. Their are too many computurised heaps of junk out there, that people expect them to be able to tow any weight and go anywhere carrying the same. You are just expecting trouble if you do that. But if you are interested in a wagon, a few of my friends have and also recently  bought a Mux. If I was to buy a new vehicle, it probably be a Mux, or an  Izuzu extended cab  tray back ute.

Bicyclecamper wrote:

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Land drover Defender, 1977-80 model ex-army maybe, but that would be my dream tow vehicle, and if I was to tow a 3.5 tonne van. I would go with an F1, 6 wheel drive International. Which you could leave the van in Cooktown, and go your hardest on the worst tracks all the way to the tip. I am serious about this. Their are too many computurised heaps of junk out there, that people expect them to be able to tow any weight and go anywhere carrying the same. You are just expecting trouble if you do that. But if you are interested in a wagon, a few of my friends have and also recently  bought a Mux. If I was to buy a new vehicle, it probably be a Mux, or an  Izuzu extended cab  tray back ute.-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Monday 17th of May 2021 07:13:46 PM

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Hi Ric. Regarding your friends' Mux,with a 1600kg rear axle capacity,they're  not going to be towing too much,but the D-Max is a great vehicle to tow up to about 3000kg! The ancient LR Defender may well do the job,but there is no way I'd head bush in a 40 year car! As far as Cape York goes, although I have not been there,and I have no great desire to do so,in 1979 a friend of mine drove an HQ Holden ute up there,and took photos to prove so! In those days there were  tree trunks across creeks,I believe? Sounds like another "Bucket list" item. Cheers

bgt wrote:

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I hear so much about LC 200s. I see sums that say a 3500kg caravan will leave you just enough carrying capacity for 2 adults and 2 small kids. No bull bar. No spare wheel. Surley all those LC 200s on the road can't be wrong!!!

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 Unfortunately,Bruce,ignorance is bliss.What you say is quite right,as an LC200 has little chance of SAFELY towing much more than 3000kg as a PIG trailer.Cheers

I find it rather bemusing that so many people talk about 3.5 Ton vans that require expensive tugs.

My old girl is 21'6" with all the stuff that modern vans have but comes in at 2.334 Ton.

Are there no modern vans in that weight range?

Has the industry lost the plot?

Cupie wrote:

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I find it rather bemusing that so many people talk about 3.5 Ton vans that require expensive tugs.

My old girl is 21'6" with all the stuff that modern vans have but comes in at 2.334 Ton.

Are there no modern vans in that weight range?

Has the industry lost the plot?

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 I am in a similar position to Cupie -  van same weight/length and 15 years old .

Keep it light , keep it simple,   A piece of "3 ply panel" for a bench top will do the exact same job as a  "polished marble" bench top. A plastic dish is a whole lot lighter, cheaper and takes up a whole lot less room than twin stainless steel kitchen sinks.

I think a lot of potential caravanners get caught up in all the "hype" created by Sales teams and end up, after purchasing ,dragging a complete house behind them and  disillusioned by the whole caravan scene because the fun, adventure and "stress free"  part has been replaced by the stress of a large depreciating asset .  

Probably a lot. I don't think people realise just how much all the little things add up.

We were extremely careful loading our car, & quite frankly it looks half empty, & we were 50kg over our payload.

After doing a spreadsheet it was an eye opener at how much all the little things added up.

24kg of items under 1kg, not including food, drink or clothing.

Whenarewethere wrote:

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Probably a lot. I don't think people realise just how much all the little things add up.

We were extremely careful loading our car, & quite frankly it looks half empty, & we were 50kg over our payload.

 After doing a spreadsheet it was an eye opener at how much all the little things added up.

 24kg of items under 1kg, not including food, drink or clothing.

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 "Probably a lot".You would be right on the money there Jonathan,judging by the number of cars towing big/heavy vans,probably blissfully unaware of any of their weights? Perhaps Montie could advise what weight the "average" caravan is when it leaves his dealership? However,as Jonathan says,the weight soon adds up.My van had a factory tare of 1740kg,but by the time I had fitted all that I wanted,and loaded food,clothing,bedding etc the van weighed 3500kg,although over 400kg of that is water.Because I am well aware of the necessity for the weight on the wheels of the  car to be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels,my car weighs 3650kg when I set sail.All safe,and legal on all axles.Cheers

yobarr wrote:

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Whenarewethere wrote:

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Probably a lot. I don't think people realise just how much all the little things add up.

We were extremely careful loading our car, & quite frankly it looks half empty, & we were 50kg over our payload.

 After doing a spreadsheet it was an eye opener at how much all the little things added up.

 24kg of items under 1kg, not including food, drink or clothing.

---

 "Probably a lot".You would be right on the money there Jonathan,judging by the number of cars towing big/heavy vans,probably blissfully unaware of any of their weights? Perhaps Montie could advise what weight the "average" caravan is when it leaves his dealership? However,as Jonathan says,the weight soon adds up.My van had a factory tare of 1740kg,but by the time I had fitted all that I wanted,and loaded food,clothing,bedding etc the van weighed 3500kg,although over 400kg of that is water.Because I am well aware of the necessity for the weight on the wheels of the  car to be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels,my car weighs 3650kg when I set sail.All safe,and legal on all axles.Cheers

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 Yobarr, your GCM seems to be over weight...........Van 3500 kg + Tug 3650 kg = 7150 kg.    Your GCM is 6900 kg, unless you have done something extra, which I didn't think you could upgrade you GCM

Cheers Bob

Bobdown wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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Whenarewethere wrote:

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Probably a lot. I don't think people realise just how much all the little things add up.

We were extremely careful loading our car, & quite frankly it looks half empty, & we were 50kg over our payload.

 After doing a spreadsheet it was an eye opener at how much all the little things added up.

 24kg of items under 1kg, not including food, drink or clothing.

---

 "Probably a lot".You would be right on the money there Jonathan,judging by the number of cars towing big/heavy vans,probably blissfully unaware of any of their weights? Perhaps Montie could advise what weight the "average" caravan is when it leaves his dealership? However,as Jonathan says,the weight soon adds up.My van had a factory tare of 1740kg,but by the time I had fitted all that I wanted,and loaded food,clothing,bedding etc the van weighed 3500kg,although over 400kg of that is water.Because I am well aware of the necessity for the weight on the wheels of the  car to be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels,my car weighs 3650kg when I set sail.All safe,and legal on all axles.Cheers

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 Yobarr, your GCM seems to be over weight...........Van 3500 kg + Tug 3650 kg = 7150 kg.    Your GCM is 6900 kg, unless you have done something extra, which I didn't think you could upgrade you GCM

Cheers Bob

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 Your game man Bob, questioning  a man of such knowledge.

We changed our standard tyres for AT & one extra wheel for 2 spares, 30kg rim & tyre, plus 6 x AT tyres at an additional 3kg per tyre.

That's 45kg we have to reduce our payload in other areas.

This is simply tyres, no fancy BS accessories!

Radar wrote:

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Bobdown wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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Whenarewethere wrote:

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Probably a lot. I don't think people realise just how much all the little things add up.

We were extremely careful loading our car, & quite frankly it looks half empty, & we were 50kg over our payload.

 After doing a spreadsheet it was an eye opener at how much all the little things added up.

 24kg of items under 1kg, not including food, drink or clothing.

---

 "Probably a lot".You would be right on the money there Jonathan,judging by the number of cars towing big/heavy vans,probably blissfully unaware of any of their weights? Perhaps Montie could advise what weight the "average" caravan is when it leaves his dealership? However,as Jonathan says,the weight soon adds up.My van had a factory tare of 1740kg,but by the time I had fitted all that I wanted,and loaded food,clothing,bedding etc the van weighed 3500kg,although over 400kg of that is water.Because I am well aware of the necessity for the weight on the wheels of the  car to be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels,my car weighs 3650kg when I set sail.All safe,and legal on all axles.Cheers

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 Yobarr, your GCM seems to be over weight...........Van 3500 kg + Tug 3650 kg = 7150 kg.    Your GCM is 6900 kg, unless you have done something extra, which I didn't think you could upgrade you GCM

Cheers Bob

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 Your game man Bob, questioning  a man of such knowledge.

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All is good Ralph,as Bob has made the common mistake of not realising that the 350kg towball weight is part of the weight on the car's wheels (GVM if you like).This means that the GTM (weight on van's wheels) is 3150kg.(3500 minus 350kg towball weight). Add 3650kg weight on car's wheels to 3150kg weight on van's wheels,and we magically have 6800kg GCM. The mistake that Bob made is a common one,which is possibly why there are so many overweight vehicles around.Many a heated discussion has been had trying to make caravanners understand that you CANNOT simply add GVM to ATM and blissfully set sail.Cheers

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 Yobarr, your GCM seems to be over weight...........Van 3500 kg + Tug 3650 kg = 7150 kg.    Your GCM is 6900 kg, unless you have done something extra, which I didn't think you could upgrade you GCM

Cheers Bob

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 Your game man Bob, questioning  a man of such knowledge.

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All is good Ralph,as Bob has made the common mistake of not realising that the 350kg towball weight is part of the weight on the car's wheels (GVM if you like).This means that the GTM (weight on van's wheels) is 3150kg.(3500 minus 350kg towball weight). Add 3650kg weight on car's wheels to 3150kg weight on van's wheels,and we magically have 6800kg GCM. The mistake that Bob made is a common one,which is possibly why there are so many overweight vehicles around.Many a heated discussion has been had trying to make caravanners understand that you CANNOT simply add GVM to ATM and blissfully set sail.Cheers

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      That's fine Yobarr, I missed your words.    ."I set sail".   But I wouldn't stop for that pie at the Bakery, it might put you over the limit, you are 'sailing' very close to the wind.

      I hope your van has a good suspension, from a Factory Tare of 1740 kg, you have doubled that to your ATM, the wheels might be like those utes you posted.

     Cheers Bob

Cupie wrote:

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I find it rather bemusing that so many people talk about 3.5 Ton vans that require expensive tugs.

My old girl is 21'6" with all the stuff that modern vans have but comes in at 2.334 Ton.

Are there no modern vans in that weight range?

Has the industry lost the plot?

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 Cupie has a good point and it is relevant to the OP and his decisions.

As most here know I'm on the total opposite end of the scale but for the benefit of the OP, briefly, my 16ft home built caravan weighs 1000kg ATM 730kg tare. Yes to achieve that EVERYTHING had to be lightweight but strong enough for bitumen roads and good dirt roads ..

You can read it all here-   https://www.caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=78365

So lets be sensible, why cant the OP find a caravan that does what he needs it to do for a maximum ATM of say 2500kg, your original thoughts OP.? Why is the figure of 3500 kg the holy grail? There is many campers that make do with say 2000kg ATM of less. Such caravans in the lighter brackets open up many other possible tugs to tow it with....even sedans under 2000kg ATM. Yes, for many it is accepted that 4X4 is desirable (not me) thats ok, but for the life of me I cant understand the need to go camping with a 3500kg ATM caravan. After all it is camping isnt it? Camping meaning attending camping sites with a unit that you enjoy the scenery, bbq's, relaxing outdoors and the basics inside the van. 

The "bigger is better" and "heavier must be better" is a Furphy. Unless of course you have 3+ kids.

I've havent counted the number of caravanners at free camps and CP's that I've spoken to that own such heavy rigs. They are first attracted to the vintage look tug then ask how it can tow that 16ft van. I ask them how much they think the caravan weighs- I get an answer of between 1400 and 1800kg ATM. I tell them its specifications and show them inside. Full ensuite, 2x large single beds, kitchen wardrobe, diesel heater, hot water, TV, awning etc...everything we need except a dining suite and lounge, those items are outside or we dine on the bed.. 

Sorry if I offend some, you are free to buy what you like, but I cant get my head around this. I've told my wife that if she passes away before me I'll live in this van and turn her bed into a dining suite using the same fallatta ply I used for much of the internal build. We lived in the van for 9 months last year while building our own house. we were comfortable. That makes 2500kg ATM a palace.

Tony

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 18th of May 2021 01:19:30 PM

-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 18th of May 2021 01:21:08 PM