One of the reasons Jayco stopped making 5th wheelers was that they wanted to them in batches of 20-30 at a time on a production line. They weren't prepared to give them a real go.
F Trucks and the like are made on a production line by the 100's in the USA, then we import a few into Australia and spend a fortune making them compliant for Australia. This prices them out of the budget for most Australians.
Most 5th wheelers made in Australia are made as one off builds, not on a production line. This causes the cost to be expensive. Australia makes some fantastic 5th wheelers but they are very expensive. I have seen 2 manufacturers with a 5th wheeler for sale with a price tag over $180000. One had an ATM around 4500kg, so if you couldn't be seen in an Iveco or Jap light truck, you had to fork out another $150000 for a USA sourced beast.
Covid has made my purchase very interesting indeed, 2 or 3 years of research, ordered and paid a deposit before Christmas. I was told it would be a 4 month wait for it to be built, turned out to be 5 months. Once I had a VIN number, I could do an Import application. Lots of patience is needed (not my best quality). Presently 5th wheeler is sitting in Indiana waiting for a booking on a RORO ship from Baltimore to Melbourne. Then I have to get it to Tasmania, so I can do my own compliance. I even have to have the Gas, Electrical and 12v people all organised before I can get my import permit.
Copy and paste link below for some of my ramblings
diggerop there are always compromises. Folks tend to forget what they compromised on to get what the have.
I just wish someone would look at building a 5th wheel around the 26-28ft range. Put x' over the truck and go camping in safety.
dieseltojo said
06:27 PM Jun 13, 2021
I wasn't trying to start a hate campaign against Ram. But you lean heavily on previous ownership. So what? I had a HQ holden in the day and can not compare it to a Holden of today. Similarly I am sure you ram was built just once. Before you make light of the brand new Ram coming out here then being pulled completely apart and you being happy to have that done, It speaks little of you assurance to any sort of a guarantee.
If it was made right hand drive at assembly that is a totally different proposition. I mean if you are going to disassemble a vehicle why not ship it here un-assembled? Now that makes sense. But no, it comes out here fully assembled as a left hand drive and the complete front end including the motor come out.
and you think that is ok?... Consider this... the Factory warranty is on a fully imported truck that leaves the factory or original manufacturer, completely off the hook. The vehicle now belongs to the Australian arm of the dealership holding. Actually a separate company.
This off the web from a vehicle tester copied at the time of the rams into in Australia. Feel free to track down the info for yourselves.
All I was doing was giving an alternative vehicle to use with a fifth wheeler not defending any vehicle. The pros and cons are of no interest to me as I have no skin in the game. If you happen to love the thing due to previous ownership ...well done.
What safety equipment is fitted? What safety rating?
No ANCAP rating and theres no AEB, lane-keeping assist, blind-spot monitoring, cross-traffic alert or adaptive cruise control. All of these features are now commonly found on utes costing less. The RAM 1500 Express is a unique offering in the Australian marketplace. If you can afford the near six-figure price tag, V8 thirst and youre not fussed about best-in-class safety, this big American pick-up offers a truckload of performance and sheer pose value that cant be matched.
$89,950
Based on new car retail price
These Australianised RAM trucks are built to a unique LHD export specification by parent company Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) in the US before being shipped to Australia, where the Walkinshaw Automotive Group (WAG) re-manufactures them in RHD.
This extensive body-off-frame process is performed on an ISO-quality production line at WAGs vast Clayton facility in Melbourne. This is done under contract to American Special Vehicles (ASV) owned by Ateco Automotive, which distributes these vehicles throughout Australia and New Zealand.
It's the only RAM Trucks importer in Australia officially sanctioned by FCA, resulting in a unique factory-approved vehicle that meets its strict OEM standards and is backed by a full factory warranty and national dealer network. Put simply, its as close as you can get to driving a brand new RHD version off the US production line. My thoughts Yep close but not a new vehicle as removing the complete body to get at the steering is all at you cost in its price.
The dashboard and instrument layouts are logical and easy to use and front occupant comfort is good, even though the seats lack adjustment for lumbar support and base cushion rake.
Rear seat access is excellent and leg room, even for tall adults, is palatial with a wide and mostly flat floor with minimal transmission hump intrusion. Theres also ample head and shoulder room and three full lap-sash seatbelts and adjustable headrests.
However, the centre seats base cushion is considerably shorter than the two outer positions, to provide a cut-out to access the floor-mounted bottle holders. So theres virtually no under-thigh support, with all upper-body weight concentrated on your bum. And the back of your head often bumps the interior light protruding from the roof lining.
So centre rear seating is surprisingly poor, given that equal comfort for five should be a given in such a large and expensive vehicle.
With its 2620kg kerb weight and 3450kg GVM, our test vehicle has a relatively small 830kg payload rating. However, its massive 7237kg GCM (or how much it can legally carry and tow at the same time) is where the RAM 1500 does eat utes for breakfast, as it can legally tow up to 4.5 tonnes of braked trailer with a 70mm tow ball, which is one tonne more than its competitors.
However, keep in mind that up to 10 per cent of that trailer weight (450kg) is tow-ball download that must be included in the RAMs payload, which would leave just 380kg. And that could easily be used up by four adults alone without any luggage, so be sure to do your sums if towing this heavy.
We forklifted 710kg into the load tub which with our driver equalled a total payload of 810kg, only 20kg under its 830kg limit. The rear coil springs compressed a full 90mm resulting in a noticeable squat in the tail, yet with some useful travel remaining.
My thoughts. Yep thats 710 kg with just the driver.
bgt said
07:24 PM Jun 13, 2021
deiseltojo you have a problem. I put up an opinion and you get all excited. Fiat back the import and conversion of RAMs in Australia. To assume they are rebuilt in an inferior way is ludicrous. RAM would be out of business instead of sell every vehicle they can get their hands on.
yobarr said
08:07 PM Jun 13, 2021
dieseltojo wrote:
I wasn't trying to start a hate campaign against Ram. But you lean heavily on previous ownership. So what? I had a HQ holden in the day and can not compare it to a Holden of today. Similarly I am sure you ram was built just once. Before you make light of the brand new Ram coming out here then being pulled completely apart and you being happy to have that done, It speaks little of you assurance to any sort of a guarantee.
If it was made right hand drive at assembly that is a totally different proposition. I mean if you are going to disassemble a vehicle why not ship it here un-assembled? Now that makes sense. But no, it comes out here fully assembled as a left hand drive and the complete front end including the motor come out.
and you think that is ok?... Consider this... the Factory warranty is on a fully imported truck that leaves the factory or original manufacturer, completely off the hook. The vehicle now belongs to the Australian arm of the dealership holding. Actually a separate company.
This off the web from a vehicle tester copied at the time of the rams into in Australia. Feel free to track down the info for yourselves.
All I was doing was giving an alternative vehicle to use with a fifth wheeler not defending any vehicle. The pros and cons are of no interest to me as I have no skin in the game. If you happen to love the thing due to previous ownership ...well done.
What safety equipment is fitted? What safety rating?
No ANCAP rating and theres no AEB, lane-keeping assist, blind-spot monitoring, cross-traffic alert or adaptive cruise control. All of these features are now commonly found on utes costing less. The RAM 1500 Express is a unique offering in the Australian marketplace. If you can afford the near six-figure price tag, V8 thirst and youre not fussed about best-in-class safety, this big American pick-up offers a truckload of performance and sheer pose value that cant be matched.
$89,950
Based on new car retail price
These Australianised RAM trucks are built to a unique LHD export specification by parent company Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) in the US before being shipped to Australia, where the Walkinshaw Automotive Group (WAG) re-manufactures them in RHD.
This extensive body-off-frame process is performed on an ISO-quality production line at WAGs vast Clayton facility in Melbourne. This is done under contract to American Special Vehicles (ASV) owned by Ateco Automotive, which distributes these vehicles throughout Australia and New Zealand.
It's the only RAM Trucks importer in Australia officially sanctioned by FCA, resulting in a unique factory-approved vehicle that meets its strict OEM standards and is backed by a full factory warranty and national dealer network. Put simply, its as close as you can get to driving a brand new RHD version off the US production line. My thoughts Yep close but not a new vehicle as removing the complete body to get at the steering is all at you cost in its price.
The dashboard and instrument layouts are logical and easy to use and front occupant comfort is good, even though the seats lack adjustment for lumbar support and base cushion rake.
Rear seat access is excellent and leg room, even for tall adults, is palatial with a wide and mostly flat floor with minimal transmission hump intrusion. Theres also ample head and shoulder room and three full lap-sash seatbelts and adjustable headrests.
However, the centre seats base cushion is considerably shorter than the two outer positions, to provide a cut-out to access the floor-mounted bottle holders. So theres virtually no under-thigh support, with all upper-body weight concentrated on your bum. And the back of your head often bumps the interior light protruding from the roof lining.
So centre rear seating is surprisingly poor, given that equal comfort for five should be a given in such a large and expensive vehicle.
With its 2620kg kerb weight and 3450kg GVM, our test vehicle has a relatively small 830kg payload rating. However, its massive 7237kg GCM (or how much it can legally carry and tow at the same time) is where the RAM 1500 does eat utes for breakfast, as it can legally tow up to 4.5 tonnes of braked trailer with a 70mm tow ball, which is one tonne more than its competitors.
However, keep in mind that up to 10 per cent of that trailer weight (450kg) is tow-ball download that must be included in the RAMs payload, which would leave just 380kg. And that could easily be used up by four adults alone without any luggage, so be sure to do your sums if towing this heavy.
We forklifted 710kg into the load tub which with our driver equalled a total payload of 810kg, only 20kg under its 830kg limit. The rear coil springs compressed a full 90mm resulting in a noticeable squat in the tail, yet with some useful travel remaining.
My thoughts. Yep thats 710 kg with just the driver.
Paul,you no doubt are aware that the chances of a Ram 1500 safely towing much more than about 3000kg ATM as a PIG trailer are zip,zero,zilch, nil,nada. The big problem is the lightweight 1770kg (recently increased to 1860kg,I believe?) rear axle.When I wrote to the Ram distributor,I received a list of specifications,which I studied in depth before replying to their email.Because I had provided all the detailed figures,based on wheelbase, TBO, GVM etc,I asked them to clearly explain to me how that car could safely tow much more than 3000kg ATM as a PIG trailer. No reply as yet,but it was only 18 months ago. Big,luxurious,powerful it certainly is,but no chance of safely towing 4500kg ATM as a PIG trailer.Using the generally accepted 10% ball weight,you're stuck on around 3000kg ATM.This all was covered waaay back in a thread titled "Ram 1500",or similar,that you may be able to find,using "search".The BIG mistake people make when they waffle-on about being "Under my GVM" is that they haven't done individual axle weights. Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 13th of June 2021 08:19:36 PM
Towing questions and weight are interesting aren't they? I like the fact that a 5th wheeler is well over the wheels of a strong ute for a safe tow. But I still would not tow any trailer that is heavier than the vehicle that is pulling it.
My van is 2.2 ton filled with water, which suites my vehicle. Friends have up to 3 ton vans, and in hard stops it can be a handful especially on downhills. I reckon a fifth wheeler should be a bit more stable generally til we get into heavy units.
Interestingly Bushtracker sell large heavy vans on request but will not sell you a van unless they deem your truck can tow it safely. Now that is a trusted thing to do as regards new buyers.Not sure if they are building fifth wheelers.
landy said
10:13 AM Jun 14, 2021
KJB and Chris61 just out of curiosity what weights are your rigs imposing on your back axles, I do realize that you have not got the leverage that is normally applied by a conventional toe bar set up. Landy
KJB said
10:57 AM Jun 14, 2021
landy wrote:
KJB and Chris61 just out of curiosity what weights are your rigs imposing on your back axles, I do realize that you have not got the leverage that is normally applied by a conventional toe bar set up. Landy
The 75mm Ball is directly above the rear axle of the 79 Series Land Cruiser and either approx. 340 Kg or approx. 380 Kg depending whether I have my Motorbike (mini bike) on the rear of the van or not. I think, from memory, when fully loaded to travel the rear axle is 2100 Kg.(this includes a 3kva Genset , 180 L. fuel , 2 spare wheels , fridge etc. on the tray.
Long Weekend said
11:12 AM Jun 14, 2021
I remember the movie "A Long Long Trailer" where the 'rig' (I hate that American word!) had a two wheel dolly at the front. The van sat perfectly level with no downloading on the tow hitch. From other scenes in the movie, apparently a jockey wheel wasn't used either.
Maybe these dollys are fairly common in the US, which may possibly be why the Americans say their big trucks, like the Rams, are able to tow such high weights.
Some six months ago one of those dollys was for sale on eBay, at the time I thought others would come up for sale but haven't seen any since.
I wonder why the dolly system is not used more extensively? (Maybe the smaller diameter wheels are unable to handle the high speeds?)
Murray
bgt said
11:46 AM Jun 14, 2021
The dolly would be a nightmare to back for many folks.
Dicko1 said
12:16 PM Jun 14, 2021
bgt wrote:
The dolly would be a nightmare to back for many folks.
Set your chair up with a beer in hand and watch the attempted reversings of many travellers setting up in a van park.....quite obvious any trailer to back up is a nightmare for many folks..
yobarr said
12:30 PM Jun 14, 2021
dieseltojo wrote:
Towing questions and weight are interesting aren't they? I like the fact that a 5th wheeler is well over the wheels of a strong ute for a safe tow. But I still would not tow any trailer that is heavier than the vehicle that is pulling it.
My van is 2.2 ton filled with water, which suites my vehicle. Friends have up to 3 ton vans, and in hard stops it can be a handful especially on downhills. I reckon a fifth wheeler should be a bit more stable generally til we get into heavy units.
Interestingly Bushtracker sell large heavy vans on request but will not sell you a van unless they deem your truck can tow it safely. Now that is a trusted thing to do as regards new buyers.Not sure if they are building fifth wheelers.
Paul,because the vehicle being discussed is effectively a semi-trailer,there his little risk towing a trailer that is waaaay heavier than the car.Think "semi-trailers" where the trailer is way heavier than the prime-mover.And then we get road trains,where the usual configuration is a semi-trailer towing two Dog trailers,all super-safe.If a truck is over 4500GVM,always any PIG trailer (caravan) it tows MUST weigh less than the towing vehicle. This is why many earthmoving contractors who use their tippers to tow Pig trailers carrying excavators etc often have to put a couple of buckets of dirt into the back of the truck to make it heavier that the PIG trailer it is towing.Cheers
bgt said
12:31 PM Jun 14, 2021
Not long ago we were in a showgrounds. The only site left was a back in. Along came a couple and we lost count of how many tries they. Eventually another camper offered to back in for them. Did in one go. 5th wheels are a different technique. So maybe thats a minus against 5th wheels.
yobarr said
12:35 PM Jun 14, 2021
KJB wrote:
landy wrote:
KJB and Chris61 just out of curiosity what weights are your rigs imposing on your back axles, I do realize that you have not got the leverage that is normally applied by a conventional toe bar set up. Landy
The 75mm Ball is directly above the rear axle of the 79 Series Land Cruiser and either approx. 340 Kg or approx. 380 Kg depending whether I have my Motorbike (mini bike) on the rear of the van or not. I think, from memory, when fully loaded to travel the rear axle is 2100 Kg.(this includes a 3kva Genset , 180 L. fuel , 2 spare wheels , fridge etc. on the tray.
That's a well set up unit,Kerry,and because it is a 79,at 2100kg rear axle weight,you still have 200kg to spare! And because there is no TBO,there is no risk of the "Tail Wagging the Dog" .Well done.Cheers
KJB said
12:53 PM Jun 14, 2021
yobarr wrote:
KJB wrote:
landy wrote:
KJB and Chris61 just out of curiosity what weights are your rigs imposing on your back axles, I do realize that you have not got the leverage that is normally applied by a conventional toe bar set up. Landy
The 75mm Ball is directly above the rear axle of the 79 Series Land Cruiser and either approx. 340 Kg or approx. 380 Kg depending whether I have my Motorbike (mini bike) on the rear of the van or not. I think, from memory, when fully loaded to travel the rear axle is 2100 Kg.(this includes a 3kva Genset , 180 L. fuel , 2 spare wheels , fridge etc. on the tray.
That's a well set up unit,Kerry,and because it is a 79,at 2100kg rear axle weight,you still have 200kg to spare! And because there is no TBO,there is no risk of the "Tail Wagging the Dog" .Well done.Cheers
Thanks....my aim was to set up a Rig that was light, as short as possible ,easy to maneuver , good to drive , had all the mod. cons. but was gravel/rough road capable but did not have the suspension and drive train operating at maximum capacity - hence less wear and tear , less overall running costs. The Land Cruiser is 16 years old and the van 15 years old and there is no reason to even think of changing. We continue to enjoy and receive good overall value from our Rig.
diggerop said
01:25 PM Jun 14, 2021
If you have trouble backing a 5th wheeler you will surely have trouble backing any caravan.
Long Weekend said
02:37 PM Jun 14, 2021
BGT: that happened to me once. Arrived at Mildura, went to the allotted site and tried to back in. There were rubbish bins almost in front and try as I might I couldn't get enough swing. A lady in the next van asked if she could help - I gratefully accepted and she did it in one go!
Luckily, I don't have much of an ego so I was thankful - I bought her chocolates as thanks.
Anyway, next morning I couldn't even get out of the site due to the rubbish bins in front. Then the penny dropped - I simply moved the bins! Don't ask why I didn't do that the night before (except that I thought the bins were on a raised slab).
Murray
bgt said
03:24 PM Jun 14, 2021
Long Weekend there are those who admit their brain failures and those who deny them. And I'm not telling anyone of my 'oops' moments!!!
KJB said
03:33 PM Jun 14, 2021
diggerop wrote:
If you have trouble backing a 5th wheeler you will surely have trouble backing any caravan.
Neither should be a problem and always longer is easier for the actual steering providing you have clear access to the parking spot. My Fifth Wheeler is short and the 4x4 has a larger turning circle so you have to have a couple of bites to "chase it " if short on room but that is never a problem .Slow without radical steering adjustments for anyone who is unsure......cannot get into trouble then.
Chris61 said
05:01 PM Jun 14, 2021
landy wrote:
KJB and Chris61 just out of curiosity what weights are your rigs imposing on your back axles, I do realize that you have not got the leverage that is normally applied by a conventional toe bar set up. Landy
Photo below is axle weights for a 2011 Colorado, GVM upgraded to 3300kg and 5th wheeler rated at 3490kg, GCM is 5900kg, pin weight around 700kg. This was weighed at Broadford on the Hume Hwy, 60kg overweight, all loaded up, happy with that, although we did lighten up as freezer was full of frozen meals and had 2 cartons of beer. We had to watch our weight, one of the reasons I upgraded to the Iveco
Photo below is axle weights for an Iveco GVM 4490kg and Ultima upraded to ATM 4000kg. Pin weight is around 700kg. Lots of spare weight even when loaded up with chainsaw, generator, firepot, 2 push bikes, tray full of firewood, 580w of solar and 3 x 105 AGM batteries and a 4kg front load washing machine weighing 40kg.
GVM of Iveco is 5200kg, derated to 4490kg, GCM is 8700kg, lots of room for a new fifth wheeler with an ATM of 4490kg and a tow hitch rated at 6000kg, ADR compliant.
The main advantage of a 5th wheeler is having the hitch mounted close to the centre of the rear axle, not over 1200mm behind hanging off a towbar. Twincab utes with a canopy filled to the brim, towing a caravan are very likely overloaded on the rear axle of the ute. I go to great lengths to stay under weight. I do have a weighbridge within 5km of home that can weigh indivual axle groups or my ute all up and weigh every year before I head to the mainland. I also weigh at the public weighbridge on the Hume Hwy at Broadford, if I go that way
I think the topic has been absorbed into a How Good Is My Toyota 79 thread. I wonder how that happened?
If we go back to the original post, my views are that as has been already said, the cost of Aussie built 5th wheelers is high due to one off builds as opposed to production line construction.
Apart from cost, the general non acceptance of these units probably comes from the sales people who in many cases seem to be Anti, the 5th wheelers due to their ignorance and fear of the concept or just maybe for the simple reason that they dont sell them. Just as a test, when shopping for a caravan just mention a 5th Wheeler to a salesman and listen carefully to the answers.
If we could actually provide education to potential caravan owners on how to drive and manoeuvre a van or a 5th wheeler as well as the necessity for correct loading of any combination then the public may then start to be able to do a genuine comparison on safety, load carrying capacity and ease of operation between the two variants. Doing this on a large scale might just persuade some potential buyers to consider the 5th option for other reasons other than price.
Other options of dollies being included into the combination in most cases would not be suitable in many situations in Australia with limited sized park sites and the fact that a great percentage of people towing vans have trouble when reversing, these are generally unacceptable as an attempt to solve the weight concerns.
With my own example I seriously considered a 5th wheeler when I bought both large vans that I have owned but although I am conversant with weight details and I can reverse most combinations, I still went the van both times due mainly to cost. I could not justify the extra cost in our situation where we may spend extended times in one spot.
If I could have found a second hand Australian built 5th wheeler in good condition that was reasonably priced when I was buying, then I would have gone that way. I might add that there is generally a plethora of units from the USA.
I am always a believer of *build it and they will come* and if there is a manufacturer that has the ability to build a good one as a production item and then promote it with quality and truthful advertising and assist with some basic training then I believe that these units could become increasingly successful in Australia.
Oh hell, what am I sayingA caravan manufacturer that moves away from build it as cheap as they can with unskilled labour and push it out the door to a sales yard with an untrained sales person who's main interest is his or her commission then this has little chance of ever getting off the ground.
Regards
Rob
bgt said
10:12 AM Jun 15, 2021
A question about suitable tow vehicles for 5th wheels. (And caravans for that matter).
A number of folks are using Iveco, Isuzu etc tugs. We are looking at moving from a motorhome to a caravan, or 5th wheel if possible. The question is - How usable are these 'truck' units for everyday use? ie are there comfort issues? Parking bay issues? Poking around tourist places?
I'm sold on the idea of using a Isuzu to tow a caravan or 5th wheel. Makes a lot of sense and eliminates the 'over loaded' issue. Iveco looks ok as well. So tell me how practical they really are. Or aren't.
Long Weekend said
10:18 AM Jun 15, 2021
A question for interest: is a special license required for a 5th wheeler?
My reason for asking is that a 5th wheeler may be considered an articulated vehicle as opposed to a caravan that is towed.
Murray
gdayjr said
02:51 PM Jun 15, 2021
bgt wrote:
A question about suitable tow vehicles for 5th wheels. (And caravans for that matter).
A number of folks are using Iveco, Isuzu etc tugs. We are looking at moving from a motorhome to a caravan, or 5th wheel if possible. The question is - How usable are these 'truck' units for everyday use? ie are there comfort issues? Parking bay issues? Poking around tourist places?
I'm sold on the idea of using a Isuzu to tow a caravan or 5th wheel. Makes a lot of sense and eliminates the 'over loaded' issue. Iveco looks ok as well. So tell me how practical they really are. Or aren't.
After looking at tow vehicles that fit My needs i have ordered an Iveco Daily E6 van. A C50 12cm
I do not need a 4wd due to the things i will be taking with me.
Better equipped than most modern cars and suv"s. ALL the modern driver aids, again well in well in excess of 4wd specs.
I have ordered diff locks, and a few of the optional upgrade packs.
I will be towing a 3500 kg caravan.
Cost of the van, in the colour i wanted, in the spec i wanted. $84k
gdayjr said
02:59 PM Jun 15, 2021
Long Weekend wrote:
A question for interest: is a special license required for a 5th wheeler?
My reason for asking is that a 5th wheeler may be considered an articulated vehicle as opposed to a caravan that is towed.
Murray
All 5th wheelers are classed as "articulated" vehicles. That does not mean you need an articulated driving licence, or truck licence.
landy said
03:35 PM Jun 15, 2021
I do not know how much truth there is in this, but I have read somewhere that it depended on the position of the turntable in relation to the rear axle off the vehicle ( in front or behind ) whether or not it is classed as an articulated vehicle or not.
diggerop said
04:06 PM Jun 15, 2021
Pretty sure, regardless of the position of the ball or turntable that you don't need a semi licence. Except maybe the ACT, they like to do it different there.
dieseltojo said
05:04 PM Jun 15, 2021
Thanks Yobarr...
yobarr said
05:40 PM Jun 15, 2021
gdayjr wrote:
Long Weekend wrote:
A question for interest: is a special license required for a 5th wheeler?
My reason for asking is that a 5th wheeler may be considered an articulated vehicle as opposed to a caravan that is towed.
Murray
All 5th wheelers are classed as "articulated" vehicles. That does not mean you need an articulated driving licence, or truck licence.
You only need a truck licence if the tow vehicle has a GVM of 4500kg or more.This is where the laws are ridiculous,as a truck licence is needed if any vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg,but Ma and Pa Kettle,who have puttered around town all their lives in their Corolla,can retire,rush out and spend their super on a big flash LC200 or similar,add a 3500kg ATM van,and away they go,legal at 6500kg in what is effectively an articulated vehicle. Off to do the BIG lap they go.Yeah,right.Cheers
One of the reasons Jayco stopped making 5th wheelers was that they wanted to them in batches of 20-30 at a time on a production line. They weren't prepared to give them a real go.
F Trucks and the like are made on a production line by the 100's in the USA, then we import a few into Australia and spend a fortune making them compliant for Australia. This prices them out of the budget for most Australians.
Most 5th wheelers made in Australia are made as one off builds, not on a production line. This causes the cost to be expensive. Australia makes some fantastic 5th wheelers but they are very expensive. I have seen 2 manufacturers with a 5th wheeler for sale with a price tag over $180000. One had an ATM around 4500kg, so if you couldn't be seen in an Iveco or Jap light truck, you had to fork out another $150000 for a USA sourced beast.
Covid has made my purchase very interesting indeed, 2 or 3 years of research, ordered and paid a deposit before Christmas. I was told it would be a 4 month wait for it to be built, turned out to be 5 months. Once I had a VIN number, I could do an Import application. Lots of patience is needed (not my best quality). Presently 5th wheeler is sitting in Indiana waiting for a booking on a RORO ship from Baltimore to Melbourne. Then I have to get it to Tasmania, so I can do my own compliance. I even have to have the Gas, Electrical and 12v people all organised before I can get my import permit.
Copy and paste link below for some of my ramblings
https://chrisanddiannesultimaadventure.wordpress.com/my-rig/can-import-a-5th-wheeler-from-the-usa/
I just wish someone would look at building a 5th wheel around the 26-28ft range. Put x' over the truck and go camping in safety.
I wasn't trying to start a hate campaign against Ram. But you lean heavily on previous ownership. So what? I had a HQ holden in the day and can not compare it to a Holden of today. Similarly I am sure you ram was built just once. Before you make light of the brand new Ram coming out here then being pulled completely apart and you being happy to have that done, It speaks little of you assurance to any sort of a guarantee.
If it was made right hand drive at assembly that is a totally different proposition. I mean if you are going to disassemble a vehicle why not ship it here un-assembled? Now that makes sense. But no, it comes out here fully assembled as a left hand drive and the complete front end including the motor come out.
and you think that is ok?... Consider this... the Factory warranty is on a fully imported truck that leaves the factory or original manufacturer, completely off the hook. The vehicle now belongs to the Australian arm of the dealership holding. Actually a separate company.
This off the web from a vehicle tester copied at the time of the rams into in Australia. Feel free to track down the info for yourselves.
All I was doing was giving an alternative vehicle to use with a fifth wheeler not defending any vehicle. The pros and cons are of no interest to me as I have no skin in the game. If you happen to love the thing due to previous ownership ...well done.
......................................................................................................................
The RAM 1500 is the shorter version in the range.
What safety equipment is fitted? What safety rating?
No ANCAP rating and theres no AEB, lane-keeping assist, blind-spot monitoring, cross-traffic alert or adaptive cruise control. All of these features are now commonly found on utes costing less. The RAM 1500 Express is a unique offering in the Australian marketplace. If you can afford the near six-figure price tag, V8 thirst and youre not fussed about best-in-class safety, this big American pick-up offers a truckload of performance and sheer pose value that cant be matched.
$89,950
Based on new car retail price
These Australianised RAM trucks are built to a unique LHD export specification by parent company Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) in the US before being shipped to Australia, where the Walkinshaw Automotive Group (WAG) re-manufactures them in RHD.
This extensive body-off-frame process is performed on an ISO-quality production line at WAGs vast Clayton facility in Melbourne. This is done under contract to American Special Vehicles (ASV) owned by Ateco Automotive, which distributes these vehicles throughout Australia and New Zealand.
It's the only RAM Trucks importer in Australia officially sanctioned by FCA, resulting in a unique factory-approved vehicle that meets its strict OEM standards and is backed by a full factory warranty and national dealer network. Put simply, its as close as you can get to driving a brand new RHD version off the US production line. My thoughts Yep close but not a new vehicle as removing the complete body to get at the steering is all at you cost in its price.
The dashboard and instrument layouts are logical and easy to use and front occupant comfort is good, even though the seats lack adjustment for lumbar support and base cushion rake.
Rear seat access is excellent and leg room, even for tall adults, is palatial with a wide and mostly flat floor with minimal transmission hump intrusion. Theres also ample head and shoulder room and three full lap-sash seatbelts and adjustable headrests.
However, the centre seats base cushion is considerably shorter than the two outer positions, to provide a cut-out to access the floor-mounted bottle holders. So theres virtually no under-thigh support, with all upper-body weight concentrated on your bum. And the back of your head often bumps the interior light protruding from the roof lining.
So centre rear seating is surprisingly poor, given that equal comfort for five should be a given in such a large and expensive vehicle.
With its 2620kg kerb weight and 3450kg GVM, our test vehicle has a relatively small 830kg payload rating. However, its massive 7237kg GCM (or how much it can legally carry and tow at the same time) is where the RAM 1500 does eat utes for breakfast, as it can legally tow up to 4.5 tonnes of braked trailer with a 70mm tow ball, which is one tonne more than its competitors.
However, keep in mind that up to 10 per cent of that trailer weight (450kg) is tow-ball download that must be included in the RAMs payload, which would leave just 380kg. And that could easily be used up by four adults alone without any luggage, so be sure to do your sums if towing this heavy.
We forklifted 710kg into the load tub which with our driver equalled a total payload of 810kg, only 20kg under its 830kg limit. The rear coil springs compressed a full 90mm resulting in a noticeable squat in the tail, yet with some useful travel remaining.
My thoughts. Yep thats 710 kg with just the driver.
Paul,you no doubt are aware that the chances of a Ram 1500 safely towing much more than about 3000kg ATM as a PIG trailer are zip,zero,zilch, nil,nada. The big problem is the lightweight 1770kg (recently increased to 1860kg,I believe?) rear axle.When I wrote to the Ram distributor,I received a list of specifications,which I studied in depth before replying to their email.Because I had provided all the detailed figures,based on wheelbase, TBO, GVM etc,I asked them to clearly explain to me how that car could safely tow much more than 3000kg ATM as a PIG trailer. No reply as yet,but it was only 18 months ago. Big,luxurious,powerful it certainly is,but no chance of safely towing 4500kg ATM as a PIG trailer.Using the generally accepted 10% ball weight,you're stuck on around 3000kg ATM.This all was covered waaay back in a thread titled "Ram 1500",or similar,that you may be able to find,using "search".The BIG mistake people make when they waffle-on about being "Under my GVM" is that they haven't done individual axle weights. Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 13th of June 2021 08:19:36 PM
Towing questions and weight are interesting aren't they? I like the fact that a 5th wheeler is well over the wheels of a strong ute for a safe tow. But I still would not tow any trailer that is heavier than the vehicle that is pulling it.
My van is 2.2 ton filled with water, which suites my vehicle. Friends have up to 3 ton vans, and in hard stops it can be a handful especially on downhills. I reckon a fifth wheeler should be a bit more stable generally til we get into heavy units.
Interestingly Bushtracker sell large heavy vans on request but will not sell you a van unless they deem your truck can tow it safely. Now that is a trusted thing to do as regards new buyers.Not sure if they are building fifth wheelers.
Landy
The 75mm Ball is directly above the rear axle of the 79 Series Land Cruiser and either approx. 340 Kg or approx. 380 Kg depending whether I have my Motorbike (mini bike) on the rear of the van or not. I think, from memory, when fully loaded to travel the rear axle is 2100 Kg.(this includes a 3kva Genset , 180 L. fuel , 2 spare wheels , fridge etc. on the tray.
Maybe these dollys are fairly common in the US, which may possibly be why the Americans say their big trucks, like the Rams, are able to tow such high weights.
Some six months ago one of those dollys was for sale on eBay, at the time I thought others would come up for sale but haven't seen any since.
I wonder why the dolly system is not used more extensively? (Maybe the smaller diameter wheels are unable to handle the high speeds?)
Murray
Set your chair up with a beer in hand and watch the attempted reversings of many travellers setting up in a van park.....quite obvious any trailer to back up is a nightmare for many folks..
Paul,because the vehicle being discussed is effectively a semi-trailer,there his little risk towing a trailer that is waaaay heavier than the car.Think "semi-trailers" where the trailer is way heavier than the prime-mover.And then we get road trains,where the usual configuration is a semi-trailer towing two Dog trailers,all super-safe.If a truck is over 4500GVM,always any PIG trailer (caravan) it tows MUST weigh less than the towing vehicle. This is why many earthmoving contractors who use their tippers to tow Pig trailers carrying excavators etc often have to put a couple of buckets of dirt into the back of the truck to make it heavier that the PIG trailer it is towing.Cheers
That's a well set up unit,Kerry,and because it is a 79,at 2100kg rear axle weight,you still have 200kg to spare! And because there is no TBO,there is no risk of the "Tail Wagging the Dog" .Well done.Cheers
Thanks....my aim was to set up a Rig that was light, as short as possible ,easy to maneuver , good to drive , had all the mod. cons. but was gravel/rough road capable but did not have the suspension and drive train operating at maximum capacity - hence less wear and tear , less overall running costs. The Land Cruiser is 16 years old and the van 15 years old and there is no reason to even think of changing. We continue to enjoy and receive good overall value from our Rig.
Luckily, I don't have much of an ego so I was thankful - I bought her chocolates as thanks.
Anyway, next morning I couldn't even get out of the site due to the rubbish bins in front. Then the penny dropped - I simply moved the bins! Don't ask why I didn't do that the night before (except that I thought the bins were on a raised slab).
Murray
Neither should be a problem and always longer is easier for the actual steering providing you have clear access to the parking spot. My Fifth Wheeler is short and the 4x4 has a larger turning circle so you have to have a couple of bites to "chase it " if short on room but that is never a problem .Slow without radical steering adjustments for anyone who is unsure......cannot get into trouble then.
Photo below is axle weights for a 2011 Colorado, GVM upgraded to 3300kg and 5th wheeler rated at 3490kg, GCM is 5900kg, pin weight around 700kg. This was weighed at Broadford on the Hume Hwy, 60kg overweight, all loaded up, happy with that, although we did lighten up as freezer was full of frozen meals and had 2 cartons of beer. We had to watch our weight, one of the reasons I upgraded to the Iveco
Photo below is axle weights for an Iveco GVM 4490kg and Ultima upraded to ATM 4000kg. Pin weight is around 700kg. Lots of spare weight even when loaded up with chainsaw, generator, firepot, 2 push bikes, tray full of firewood, 580w of solar and 3 x 105 AGM batteries and a 4kg front load washing machine weighing 40kg.
GVM of Iveco is 5200kg, derated to 4490kg, GCM is 8700kg, lots of room for a new fifth wheeler with an ATM of 4490kg and a tow hitch rated at 6000kg, ADR compliant.
The main advantage of a 5th wheeler is having the hitch mounted close to the centre of the rear axle, not over 1200mm behind hanging off a towbar. Twincab utes with a canopy filled to the brim, towing a caravan are very likely overloaded on the rear axle of the ute. I go to great lengths to stay under weight. I do have a weighbridge within 5km of home that can weigh indivual axle groups or my ute all up and weigh every year before I head to the mainland. I also weigh at the public weighbridge on the Hume Hwy at Broadford, if I go that way
I think the topic has been absorbed into a How Good Is My Toyota 79 thread. I wonder how that happened?
If we go back to the original post, my views are that as has been already said, the cost of Aussie built 5th wheelers is high due to one off builds as opposed to production line construction.
Apart from cost, the general non acceptance of these units probably comes from the sales people who in many cases seem to be Anti, the 5th wheelers due to their ignorance and fear of the concept or just maybe for the simple reason that they dont sell them.
Just as a test, when shopping for a caravan just mention a 5th Wheeler to a salesman and listen carefully to the answers.
If we could actually provide education to potential caravan owners on how to drive and manoeuvre a van or a 5th wheeler as well as the necessity for correct loading of any combination then the public may then start to be able to do a genuine comparison on safety, load carrying capacity and ease of operation between the two variants. Doing this on a large scale might just persuade some potential buyers to consider the 5th option for other reasons other than price.
Other options of dollies being included into the combination in most cases would not be suitable in many situations in Australia with limited sized park sites and the fact that a great percentage of people towing vans have trouble when reversing, these are generally unacceptable as an attempt to solve the weight concerns.
With my own example I seriously considered a 5th wheeler when I bought both large vans that I have owned but although I am conversant with weight details and I can reverse most combinations, I still went the van both times due mainly to cost. I could not justify the extra cost in our situation where we may spend extended times in one spot.
If I could have found a second hand Australian built 5th wheeler in good condition that was reasonably priced when I was buying, then I would have gone that way. I might add that there is generally a plethora of units from the USA.
I am always a believer of *build it and they will come* and if there is a manufacturer that has the ability to build a good one as a production item and then promote it with quality and truthful advertising and assist with some basic training then I believe that these units could become increasingly successful in Australia.
Oh hell, what am I sayingA caravan manufacturer that moves away from build it as cheap as they can with unskilled labour and push it out the door to a sales yard with an untrained sales person who's main interest is his or her commission then this has little chance of ever getting off the ground.
Regards
Rob
A number of folks are using Iveco, Isuzu etc tugs. We are looking at moving from a motorhome to a caravan, or 5th wheel if possible. The question is - How usable are these 'truck' units for everyday use? ie are there comfort issues? Parking bay issues? Poking around tourist places?
I'm sold on the idea of using a Isuzu to tow a caravan or 5th wheel. Makes a lot of sense and eliminates the 'over loaded' issue. Iveco looks ok as well. So tell me how practical they really are. Or aren't.
My reason for asking is that a 5th wheeler may be considered an articulated vehicle as opposed to a caravan that is towed.
Murray
After looking at tow vehicles that fit My needs i have ordered an Iveco Daily E6 van. A C50 12cm
I do not need a 4wd due to the things i will be taking with me.
Better equipped than most modern cars and suv"s. ALL the modern driver aids, again well in well in excess of 4wd specs.
I have ordered diff locks, and a few of the optional upgrade packs.
I will be towing a 3500 kg caravan.
Cost of the van, in the colour i wanted, in the spec i wanted. $84k
All 5th wheelers are classed as "articulated" vehicles. That does not mean you need an articulated driving licence, or truck licence.
Thanks Yobarr...
You only need a truck licence if the tow vehicle has a GVM of 4500kg or more.This is where the laws are ridiculous,as a truck licence is needed if any vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg,but Ma and Pa Kettle,who have puttered around town all their lives in their Corolla,can retire,rush out and spend their super on a big flash LC200 or similar,add a 3500kg ATM van,and away they go,legal at 6500kg in what is effectively an articulated vehicle. Off to do the BIG lap they go.Yeah,right.Cheers