My parents imagrated to here from Scotland before I was born so back in the first half of 1950. Come pension age both received a British part pension. The sum was not much but it was from the time they worked and paid taxes back in Scotland. They recieved this till they died. They were also citizens of Australia but still got the British part for paying taxes.
oldbloke said
09:56 PM Oct 9, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
dogbox wrote:
see what happens when the ideas get floated ,we start to get conditioned to accept what is coming
I intended to pick up on this but forgot: an astute comment and something which has often worried me in recent years and especially with the ubiquitous spread of media et al.
It seems that once a proposition has been repeated many times it becomes a fact and I am reminded of a quotation I rather like:
----
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France [Jacques Anatole Thibault] (1844-1924)
----
Yes, people miss understand, gullible or ignorant of our political systems. Media beats it up but the "bill" hasn't even been written yet, let alone passed both houses.
landy said
10:25 PM Oct 9, 2021
Corndoggy wrote:
My parents imagrated to here from Scotland before I was born so back in the first half of 1950. Come pension age both received a British part pension. The sum was not much but it was from the time they worked and paid taxes back in Scotland. They recieved this till they died. They were also citizens of Australia but still got the British part for paying taxes.
I'm happy to be corrected if I have got this wrong Corndoggy but I do not believe the Uk pension is a Direct part of their tax system. When a UK citizen earns above a certain amount they are or were required to buy a national insurance stamp to specifically cover the national health service and there old age pension when they reach the required age.
If indeed you reach this age without buying enough credits you will be denied a full pension even if still living in the UK I believe, hence your parents only receiving a part pension to match what they had contributed to the pension scheme.
Like your parents I receive a part UK pension because I had bought credits for it. The Australian government then promptly taxes me on it but that's another story. Landy
Greg 1 said
03:09 AM Oct 10, 2021
People keep saying the pension is welfare but in fact it's not.
It was originally a levy paid as a separate payment to income tax much like a super contribution.
At some point a certain government rolled it all together with the income tax as one payment.
Instead of investing the pension contributions as they should have done, successive governments have tipped it into general revenue and spent it and now the chickens have come home to roost with not enough in the kitty to pay the bill so pollies are looking at every which way not to pay it or reduce it. They knew this day was coming for decades and none did anything about it except to make employers pay compulsory super to pull them out of the poo.
All of us who have worked all our working lives and contributed to the pension scheme are morally entitled to it. It is our money that went into it that the government has snaffled in a very underhand manner.
landy said
08:42 AM Oct 10, 2021
Here are all the details Greg, its an interesting read. We have indeed paid for our pension's.
They knew this day was coming for decades and none did anything about it except to make employers pay compulsory super to pull them out of the poo.
Greg, Small point of contention - Employer's do NOT pay compulsory superannuation - employers collect a percentage of Worker's remuneration (wages/salary) and allocate the funds into an employees preferred retirement fund or scheme.
Corndoggy said
12:10 PM Oct 10, 2021
Landy, when I found out my parents got this British part pension I had to ask how come. How it was put to me was that it was from the time worked before they came to Australia. They paid taxes and it was because of that they were entitled to it. It was not said that they had bought any kind of stamps to cover it. Maybe it was how they put it to me. I can vaguely remember after they died I had to notify the British department and getting a sympathy letter along with an adjustment to help with death costs which I though strange, not expected. My mother also was the one that told me about the pension tax that was supposed to pay for it when we reached pension age.
Cupie said
01:49 PM Oct 10, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
dogbox wrote:
assume average wage $ 75,000 per annum ? based on 38 hr week that would be approx $ 38 per hour
first $45001 tax payable $5092 next $ 30,000 at 32.5% = $9750 + $5092 = $ 14842 = 570.84 per fortnight
if single pension $882.20 per fortnight. less tax per fortnight (assuming $75,000 per annum/$2884.61 per fortnight)$ 570.84 = a short fall of 311.36 per fortnight if figures are roughly correct based on to days numbers someone might remember how much tax they paid in 1970 and compare it to what they get back as a OAP today assuming tax payed all went towards the pension which it does't. how long could you draw a pension till the bank was dry
roger roger back to you
You're still not taking inflation, variations in interest rate or indirect taxes into account, in any event I suggest your argument is specious; it is clear most of the Western world, USA excepted, wants a welfare state society not a user pays one and indeed that is what has eventuated for many decades in all the Western countries. I am sure (I certainly hope) you would not argue for a user pays healthcare system?
The age pension in Oz is means tested and that is right and proper, the state should not be giving welfare to those who do not need it.Having said that ... it now occurs to me one could make the same argument about Medicare, if you have the funds how do you feel about paying all your medical bills?
Welfare is a difficult area with the devil in the detail but I *never* wish to live in society where good people suffer significant hardship because of bad luck or a few poor choices in life. If a society will not care for its weakest then it's not really a society it seem to me.
Agree strongly
landy said
01:53 PM Oct 10, 2021
Corndoggy wrote:
Landy, when I found out my parents got this British part pension I had to ask how come. How it was put to me was that it was from the time worked before they came to Australia. They paid taxes and it was because of that they were entitled to it. It was not said that they had bought any kind of stamps to cover it. Maybe it was how they put it to me. I can vaguely remember after they died I had to notify the British department and getting a sympathy letter along with an adjustment to help with death costs which I though strange, not expected. My mother also was the one that told me about the pension tax that was supposed to pay for it when we reached pension age.
Yes I probably did not explain that very well Corndoggy please excuse me, for me was 50 years ago. It was not left to the employee to make the payment but was deducted by the employer along with the any other deductions such as tax that the employee had to pay but it was applied to a different area by buying a stamp from the post office and attaching it to the employees national insurance cards.
If an employer got behind he had to quickly bring your stamps up to date if you were to resign so the phrase - you can lick-em and stick-em - was a common way of saying stick your job up your bum.
Here is a link that explains the system better than I can. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11523
PS just as a bit more info. Although my wife (who also worked in the UK before we were married) passed away before either of us reached pension age, her pension entitlements passed to me and will continue to be paid until I pass. Not a great amount but very welcome.
--
-- Edited by landy on Sunday 10th of October 2021 02:17:59 PM
dogbox said
03:11 PM Oct 10, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
dogbox wrote:
what a person pays in income tax would not even come close to covering the OAP let alone the concessions you get with the card.
Perhaps you are correct, I don't know but... my question is; are you adjusting for inflation in your rather wild statement?
to give you an exact figure would be impossible for a poor simple soul like myself .
now some simple research and a calculator in 1970 my weekly wage was about $ 75-80.00 a week with a bit of overtime (so assume average for purpose of simplicity), my tax payable on an annual wage of approx $3900 was $ 650 per annum now according to a previous post the pension factor was 7.5 % or $ 48 per annum if my figures are correct
at some point the government has absorbed this amount put aside into consolidated revenue
50 years later if i was entitled to a pension i would be drawing it out at nearly $ 23,000 per annum todays money, not a bad investment
as far as the present super system / pension i believe it gets taxed at 15% going in, what happens if they decide to tax it at an additional 15% coming out or classify it as taxable income remember JOHN HOWARD when he wanted to buy back all the guns he put a 1% surcharge on the medicare levy to fund it, we took it in our stride, we paid the levy, it use to be 1.5%
Mike Harding said
03:35 PM Oct 10, 2021
dogbox wrote:
to give you an exact figure would be impossible for a poor simple soul like myself .
I suspect you are neither poor nor simple; go well my friend :)
dogbox said
04:11 PM Oct 10, 2021
Greg 1 wrote:
People keep saying the pension is welfare but in fact it's not. It was originally a levy paid as a separate payment to income tax much like a super contribution. At some point a certain government rolled it all together with the income tax as one payment. Instead of investing the pension contributions as they should have done, successive governments have tipped it into general revenue and spent it and now the chickens have come home to roost with not enough in the kitty to pay the bill so pollies are looking at every which way not to pay it or reduce it. They knew this day was coming for decades and none did anything about it except to make employers pay compulsory super to pull them out of the poo. All of us who have worked all our working lives and contributed to the pension scheme are morally entitled to it. It is our money that went into it that the government has snaffled in a very underhand manner.
at this point in time the OAP is not welfare but as super starts to become the dominate source of funding retirement ,the government of the day may decide that the OAP is no longer relevant and lump it in the welfare basket .remembering the next generation should have enough in their super to fund their own retirement with no government contribution , after all they will get a very generous pension plan after a short period in parliament
Whenarewethere said
05:28 PM Oct 10, 2021
People are already retiring with ever larger mortgages & paying that off with super, then going on the pension.
In the meantime the tax breaks for super in a few years will be worth more than simply giving everyone a pension.
The whole system is broken.
dogbox said
07:39 PM Oct 10, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
People are already retiring with ever larger mortgages & paying that off with super, then going on the pension.
In the meantime the tax breaks for super in a few years will be worth more than simply giving everyone a pension.
The whole system is broken.
thoughts like that might get them thinking to class what you draw out is income or at least to tax what comes out as well as what goes in.
they are cooking something up to get at the large amounts in super one way or another it may come in the form of what they will do in 20 years the young one are not interested, too far in the future and it won't affect us oldies so who is going to make much noise
Buzz Lightbulb said
11:18 PM Oct 10, 2021
Possum3 wrote:
Leftist Bullsh1t tried last election to nil effect - Although I personally believe it would stop some of the current rorting - may even assist in dampening down the market in drugs and alcohol - just sayin.
Leftish? It sounds rightish to me.
Have a look at this:
Jaahn said
08:15 AM Oct 11, 2021
Mate that is the best Utube video I have seen. Satire of course for those that cannot tell themselves. I will work through some of the others later !!
You make up your own mind as to whether the topics are covered well or not but at least think about them !
Jaahn
TheHeaths said
08:46 AM Oct 11, 2021
Very good video. Think it should have been on the humour page though!
Mike Harding said
12:21 PM Oct 11, 2021
The video was well written and acted :)
The cashless card is a difficult one: my understanding is that it has been very positive in Aboriginal communities but I don't think I wish to see it become mandatory for the general population. The video made a good point about poor people buying with cash from markets and secondhand sales. And if people wish to buy cigs. or booze rather than food then I guess that's their choice....
Whenarewethere said
01:07 PM Oct 11, 2021
Just listening to the radio about old age & some various old customs. I missed which country.
The old Father dies & his son was expected to bash his mother on the head.
One way of getting rid of the old!
dogbox said
01:09 PM Oct 11, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
The video was well written and acted :)
The cashless card is a difficult one: my understanding is that it has been very positive in Aboriginal communities but I don't think I wish to see it become mandatory for the general population. The video made a good point about poor people buying with cash from markets and secondhand sales. And if people wish to buy cigs. or booze rather than food then I guess that's their choice....
will covid be a big contributor to way we feel about cashless society ? as i understand the welfare system, people get payed a pension less deductions for public housing ect if required, so no matter what they do with the rest ,their basic bills are payed an they have a roof over their heads the cashless card was as far as i know very successful in the remote aboriginal communities because it meant the women didn't have cash available to be robbed by the local stand over men or spent on booze ,drugs ,cigs, if they were in desperate need of cash they could sell their cards or the good purchased at least some of the money was going for food for the kids and some of the stand over men moved on
the cashless OAP has been mentioned by the OP, we are being conditioned to accept the idea ,going by some of the comments posted on here . i think when super becomes the norm for financing retirement the OAP will become redundant for most people who worked all their lives
Craig1 said
05:14 PM Oct 13, 2021
Well I have it in writing ( email) from my local Member, Ms Sussan Ley, Minister for Environment that The current Govt has No Plans to quarantine any pension payments. Question asked and answered in about 2 hours.
Cupie said
06:16 PM Oct 13, 2021
Craig1 wrote:
Well I have it in writing ( email) from my local Member, Ms Sussan Ley, Minister for Environment that The current Govt has No Plans to quarantine any pension payments. Question asked and answered in about 2 hours.
Yep, the Polies are firmly focused on an upcoming election. They certainly have their talking points on this issue.
I am firmly of the view that it is extremely unlikely that they would take the unnecessary risk of opening themselves up to adverse reaction from large sections of the voting public by such policies as cashless Pension/benefits cards or even including part or all of the Family home in pension Assets test, or negative gearing etc. We are all like a mob of bloody sheep! Especially in this age of mass media like Facebook/Twitter et al.
Just cast your mind back to how the Franking Credit issue was exploited in the last election.
There are quite enough contentious issues out there & conventional wisdom is that in Australia, Govts get themselves out of office rather than the Opposition getting themselves in. Perhaps the Opposition will make themselves a small target (but they may not be smart enough to do so) & the Govt will become born again greenies if only they can reign in their far right & the Nats, sling a few last minute sweeteners about like Little Johnny Howard or King Ming, and Bobs your Uncle and they are back in.
Then perhaps this issue will be back on the table.
Am I cynical and a little bit biased or what?
LOL (I tried very hard not to be too political)
Whenarewethere said
06:40 PM Oct 13, 2021
I have heard rumours that Sydney's Northern Beaches (my electorate), after the loss to an independent, & a female at that! To win back the seat there is a proposal of a Silvertails card.
Craig1 said
08:02 PM Oct 13, 2021
I like that one When
Colin Penrose said
09:34 AM Oct 14, 2021
And you believe her ? Never heard a Pollie lie before.
Whenarewethere said
09:42 AM Oct 14, 2021
Craig1 wrote:
I like that one When
Colloquially known as the Silverfishy card!
Craig1 said
10:50 AM Oct 14, 2021
I have also asked Mr Morrison as well Colin. IF we all contacted our local member and the P M and asked the same question, they would at least get the message that it is not on to try it on.
DeBe said
01:24 PM Oct 14, 2021
While an election is on the horizon then the polititions will deny the Indue card for pensioners. Wait & see after the election, Any polly will tell you what you want to hear to get elected.
Terryt said
01:56 PM Oct 14, 2021
q
-- Edited by Terryt on Thursday 14th of October 2021 02:00:44 PM
Terryt said
01:59 PM Oct 14, 2021
There is noway in the world that all pensioners wll be forced to have their pension paid via a card that can only be used to buy certain things. The trials running at the moment are in mainly indigineous areas and the aim is to mimimise the amount spent on alcohol/drugs to try and give kids a better life. 80%of the money is paid on the card and the rest in the normal way. Especially among the women in these areas it is a popular thing. It is also possible to opt out if the situation is not applicable to you. The people screaming about the injustice of it all in many cases would have no idea of the damage alcohol and drugs do to these communities and more specifically the kids in these communities. I'd suggest a chill pill is in order to those suggesting this is going to apply to everyone.
I'm happy to be corrected if I have got this wrong Corndoggy but I do not believe the Uk pension is a Direct part of their tax system. When a UK citizen earns above a certain amount they are or were required to buy a national insurance stamp to specifically cover the national health service and there old age pension when they reach the required age.
If indeed you reach this age without buying enough credits you will be denied a full pension even if still living in the UK I believe, hence your parents only receiving a part pension to match what they had contributed to the pension scheme.
Like your parents I receive a part UK pension because I had bought credits for it. The Australian government then promptly taxes me on it but that's another story.
Landy
http://www.upinsmokesignal.com/history-of-the-aged-pension-in-australia.php
Landy
Greg, Small point of contention - Employer's do NOT pay compulsory superannuation - employers collect a percentage of Worker's remuneration (wages/salary) and allocate the funds into an employees preferred retirement fund or scheme.
Agree strongly
Yes I probably did not explain that very well Corndoggy please excuse me, for me was 50 years ago. It was not left to the employee to make the payment but was deducted by the employer along with the any other deductions such as tax that the employee had to pay but it was applied to a different area by buying a stamp from the post office and attaching it to the employees national insurance cards.
If an employer got behind he had to quickly bring your stamps up to date if you were to resign so the phrase - you can lick-em and stick-em - was a common way of saying stick your job up your bum.
Here is a link that explains the system better than I can. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11523 PS just as a bit more info. Although my wife (who also worked in the UK before we were married) passed away before either of us reached pension age, her pension entitlements passed to me and will continue to be paid until I pass. Not a great amount but very welcome.
--
-- Edited by landy on Sunday 10th of October 2021 02:17:59 PM
to give you an exact figure would be impossible for a poor simple soul like myself .
now some simple research and a calculator in 1970 my weekly wage was about $ 75-80.00 a week with a bit of overtime (so assume average for purpose of simplicity), my tax payable on an annual wage of approx $3900 was $ 650 per annum now according to a previous post the pension factor was 7.5 % or $ 48 per annum if my figures are correct
at some point the government has absorbed this amount put aside into consolidated revenue
50 years later if i was entitled to a pension i would be drawing it out at nearly $ 23,000 per annum todays money, not a bad investment
as far as the present super system / pension i believe it gets taxed at 15% going in, what happens if they decide to tax it at an additional 15% coming out
or classify it as taxable income
remember JOHN HOWARD when he wanted to buy back all the guns he put a 1% surcharge on the medicare levy to fund it, we took it in our stride, we paid the levy, it use to be 1.5%
I suspect you are neither poor nor simple; go well my friend :)
at this point in time the OAP is not welfare but as super starts to become the dominate source of funding retirement ,the government of the day may decide that the OAP is no longer relevant and lump it in the welfare basket .remembering the next generation should have enough in their super to fund their own retirement with no government contribution , after all they will get a very generous pension plan after a short period in parliament
People are already retiring with ever larger mortgages & paying that off with super, then going on the pension.
In the meantime the tax breaks for super in a few years will be worth more than simply giving everyone a pension.
The whole system is broken.
thoughts like that might get them thinking to class what you draw out is income or at least to tax what comes out as well as what goes in.
they are cooking something up to get at the large amounts in super one way or another it may come in the form of what they will do in 20 years the young one are not interested, too far in the future and it won't affect us oldies so who is going to make much noise
Leftish? It sounds rightish to me.
Have a look at this:
You make up your own mind as to whether the topics are covered well or not but at least think about them !
Jaahn
The video was well written and acted :)
The cashless card is a difficult one: my understanding is that it has been very positive in Aboriginal communities but I don't think I wish to see it become mandatory for the general population. The video made a good point about poor people buying with cash from markets and secondhand sales. And if people wish to buy cigs. or booze rather than food then I guess that's their choice....
Just listening to the radio about old age & some various old customs. I missed which country.
The old Father dies & his son was expected to bash his mother on the head.
One way of getting rid of the old!
will covid be a big contributor to way we feel about cashless society ?
as i understand the welfare system, people get payed a pension less deductions for public housing ect if required, so no matter what they do with the rest ,their basic bills are payed an they have a roof over their heads
the cashless card was as far as i know very successful in the remote aboriginal communities because it meant the women didn't have cash available to be robbed by the local stand over men or spent on booze ,drugs ,cigs, if they were in desperate need of cash they could sell their cards or the good purchased at least some of the money was going for food for the kids and some of the stand over men moved on
the cashless OAP has been mentioned by the OP, we are being conditioned to accept the idea ,going by some of the comments posted on here .
i think when super becomes the norm for financing retirement the OAP will become redundant for most people who worked all their lives
Yep, the Polies are firmly focused on an upcoming election. They certainly have their talking points on this issue.
I am firmly of the view that it is extremely unlikely that they would take the unnecessary risk of opening themselves up to adverse reaction from large sections of the voting public by such policies as cashless Pension/benefits cards or even including part or all of the Family home in pension Assets test, or negative gearing etc. We are all like a mob of bloody sheep! Especially in this age of mass media like Facebook/Twitter et al.
Just cast your mind back to how the Franking Credit issue was exploited in the last election.
There are quite enough contentious issues out there & conventional wisdom is that in Australia, Govts get themselves out of office rather than the Opposition getting themselves in. Perhaps the Opposition will make themselves a small target (but they may not be smart enough to do so) & the Govt will become born again greenies if only they can reign in their far right & the Nats, sling a few last minute sweeteners about like Little Johnny Howard or King Ming, and Bobs your Uncle and they are back in.
Then perhaps this issue will be back on the table.
Am I cynical and a little bit biased or what?
LOL (I tried very hard not to be too political)
I have heard rumours that Sydney's Northern Beaches (my electorate), after the loss to an independent, & a female at that! To win back the seat there is a proposal of a Silvertails card.
And you believe her ? Never heard a Pollie lie before.
Colloquially known as the Silverfishy card!
q
-- Edited by Terryt on Thursday 14th of October 2021 02:00:44 PM
There is noway in the world that all pensioners wll be forced to have their pension paid via a card that can only be used to buy certain things. The trials running at the moment are in mainly indigineous areas and the aim is to mimimise the amount spent on alcohol/drugs to try and give kids a better life. 80%of the money is paid on the card and the rest in the normal way. Especially among the women in these areas it is a popular thing. It is also possible to opt out if the situation is not applicable to you. The people screaming about the injustice of it all in many cases would have no idea of the damage alcohol and drugs do to these communities and more specifically the kids in these communities. I'd suggest a chill pill is in order to those suggesting this is going to apply to everyone.