Hydrogen - a future in Australia or a lot of hot air?
Rob Driver said
10:43 AM Dec 2, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
Captain Cook's main role traveling the world was actually to look for new sources of number twos to make explosives. England was running out of number twos.
WW1 started because of the Haber Bosch process to make explosives & fertilizer out of thin air, but is highly fossil fuel intensive.
The Bosch Haber process can be converted to using renewables. Which currently accounts for about 1.2% of the world's greenhouse gases.
Taking this a step further ammonia nitrate is a brilliant form of energy storage, there is up to 12,000 tonnes in Newcastle. So renewably created ammonia nitrate could then be used to provide energy when the wind doesn't blow.
We of the Never Never,
You are certainly a very different unit. The climate v weather pundits should be glad to have your support.
We are all so thankful that Captain Cook discovered the original sewer outlet which was disposing of Sydneys excrement waste into the sea.
Had we had all decentralised then, we would not have had a need to build a *new and improved model* which can spew forth many times more excrement than what was previously happening.
On a side note, If you have time, have a read of the article in the above post and in an attempt to replace each oxygen atom that is taken from the atmosphere in an attempt to generate clean H Power you could plant a tree.
If I may assume you have 10 productive years of your life still available to you (god permitting) and you planted one tree a day then we would have an extra 3650 trees all helping to produce oxygen for our atmosphere.
Isnt that amazing, and what a great result from just one person. If we all stopped and realised this for just a few minutes I wonder how much better off we would all be. I know that in practice this may not be possible for all of Australias population but if one third of us planted just one tree per year that would be over 7 million new trees to provide a natural method of putting oxygen back into our air.
If we all did this each year (one tree a year) then when our government representative turns up to the meeting that demands us to send a bucket load of money to some dubious bottomless money pit, that representative could turn around and say * we arent sending money we are contributing to your perceived climate problem by having our population planting trees.* In ten years we would have 70 million new trees.
Wouldnt that be good We of the Never Never, that we could also tell them that we are going to stop spewing tonnes of excrement into the ocean as well.
Buzz Lightbulb said
10:55 AM Dec 2, 2021
We need alternatives to fossil fuels. Hydrogen and EVs are currently, the most scientific way to go for transport.
If we don't reduce the CO2 emissions the oceans will be ruined by the absorption of CO2 that makes the oceans more acidic. Scientists say that the shells and homes of those marine creatures that have them are already weakened and therefore threatened. Many of these creatures are the base of the oceanic food chain. If these creatures die out because of CO2 emissions most, if not all, of the marine creatures will die.
CO2 emissions are more of a threat to the oceans than desalination plants.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 10:57:40 AM
Rob Driver said
11:04 AM Dec 2, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
1. Can you tell us what the actual volume (L/hour) that this "waste water" is to put it all into context? Bear in mind that the energy content of hydrogen is many times that of petrol or diesel. I suggest we are talking about the number of drips per minute, not the equivalent of a caravan draining its grey water tank. 2. One of the significant waste products from ICE engines is water vapour. Does not seem to be an issue?
Maybe we should be looking for solutions, not just problems? Some seem to forget that in terms of development, we are not yet at Model T stage. Cheers, Peter
The solution is Peter, that until all research covers all problems it is more productive for all of us to plant a tree.
But to answer question number 1
it is 9 times the size of the H tank that is used in the process. Simple terms, for example a 500 litre H tank will need to contain 4500 litres of water
(4.5 tonnes )to prevent it being discharged onto the road, unless of course we then build H Power collection tanks like dump points. Read the last sentence of the article where the author thinks that most people wont want to bother.
This has not been thought through at all.
Question number 2
The ICE does not produce 4500 litre of water per 500 litres of fuel. I dont have the figure for the ICE but having owned and operated large ICEs for most of my life I dont think I have ever noticed litres of water being produced.
As I did say in another topic for every solution there appears another problem.
I also said in this topic that, a static H Power plant could be very practical but it needs to be designed an implemented with some thought.
Without knowing what Townsvilles intention for the H Plant, I think that there is a place for Hydrogen in the scheme of generating Green Power.
In the meantime just plant a tree. You might be surprised at the result.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 11:06:29 AM
Whenarewethere said
11:12 AM Dec 2, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
1. Can you tell us what the actual volume (L/hour) that this "waste water" is to put it all into context? Bear in mind that the energy content of hydrogen is many times that of petrol or diesel. I suggest we are talking about the number of drips per minute, not the equivalent of a caravan draining its grey water tank. 2. One of the significant waste products from ICE engines is water vapour. Does not seem to be an issue?
Maybe we should be looking for solutions, not just problems? Some seem to forget that in terms of development, we are not yet at Model T stage. Cheers, Peter
30 times more productive to expand mangroves & sea grass than fiddle with trees.
Roy E said
11:19 AM Dec 2, 2021
This discussion is all very interesting and with lots of information but, can some one tell me the answer to this?
When a petrol, diesel or gas powered internal combustion engine operates, it draws in air for oxygen for the combustion process.
Of course, around 80% of the air drawn in is Nitrogen and, I believe, during the combustion process some of the Nitrogen combines with Oxygen to form various oxides of Nitrogen.
These oxides of nitrogen are reportedly very harmful to everything.
Can someone assure me that during the combustion process of Hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, oxides of Nitrogen will not be formed and emitted?
Cheers,
Roy.
Rob Driver said
11:27 AM Dec 2, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
30 times more productive to expand mangroves & sea grass than fiddle with trees.
Your car would have more than likely, a conservative fuel tank size of 60 litres ( probably more but who is arguing)
Try tipping 540 litres of water behind your car and then moving around or driving it out of there if it is black soil.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 11:32:06 AM
Rob Driver said
11:31 AM Dec 2, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
30 times more productive to expand mangroves & sea grass than fiddle with trees.
30 times, wow,
Now which side are you arguing on. Maybe we could all throw our buckets of money into the research of mangroves and sea grasses.
As I suggested you are a real asset to the climate change pundits.
Roy E said
12:19 PM Dec 2, 2021
All in all, a very interesting discussion but, can someone tell me, will hydrogen fueled internal combustion engines produce oxides of nitrogen? Not mentioned anywhere I can see. Cheers, Roy.
-- Edited by Roy E on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 12:38:42 PM
Rob Driver said
12:21 PM Dec 2, 2021
Roy E wrote:
All in all, a very interesting discussion but, can someone tell me, will hydrogen fueled internal combustion engines produce oxides of nitrogen? Not mentioned anywhere I can see. Cheers, Roy.
My guess is they would have to if they are relying on atmospheric air to complete combustion.
Someone will come up with an explanation.
Whenarewethere said
12:33 PM Dec 2, 2021
I'm busy volunteering on the pre polling for the Greens.
Rob Driver said
01:01 PM Dec 2, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
I'm busy volunteering on the pre polling for the Greens.
I heard that you were so Green, *you eat your own Boogers*.
Whenarewethere said
01:20 PM Dec 2, 2021
A great bunch of people here from all parties volunteering helping each other.
Rob Driver said
01:22 PM Dec 2, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
A great bunch of people here from all parties volunteering helping each other.
There sounds like that there will plenty to eat for lunch then..
Craig1 said
01:47 PM Dec 2, 2021
we have 51 candidates for 9 positions, Greens got 51,50,49,48.47 .
All in all, a very interesting discussion but, can someone tell me, will hydrogen fueled internal combustion engines produce oxides of nitrogen? Not mentioned anywhere I can see. Cheers, Roy.
-- Edited by Roy E on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 12:38:42 PM
I dont think it is an Internal Combustion Engine. Its a Hydrogen unit that produces Electrical energy that drive electric motors to turn the wheels. Not a piston engine
-- Edited by elliemike on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 09:32:08 PM
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:40 PM Dec 2, 2021
Correct.
They use nitrogen and a fuel cell to produce electricity instead of storing electricity in batteries.
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
09:41 PM Dec 2, 2021
Roy E wrote:
All in all, a very interesting discussion but, can someone tell me, will hydrogen fueled internal combustion engines produce oxides of nitrogen? Not mentioned anywhere I can see. Cheers, Roy.
Manly, 7 miles from Sydney and 1000 miles from care.
Rob Driver said
09:16 AM Dec 6, 2021
A great little project for any who want to make Hydrogen
We used to fill balloons with H by using galvanised nails, acid and water. in a bottle. DONT DO THIS AT HOME KIDDIES.
Did anyone care to notice how much water was left in the H Generator Vessel after the process. It was not included as a detail in the process.
There is a post in this topic above, with the actual figures.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Monday 6th of December 2021 09:18:25 AM
Whenarewethere said
09:27 AM Dec 6, 2021
Not only metric, most people are in the 21c now.
Rob Driver said
10:11 AM Dec 6, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
Not only metric, most people are in the 21c now.
Actually the quote is not metric or imperial relative, but for the pedantic.
1 MILE = 1.609344 kilometres.
Go ahead, pick that to bits.
Whenarewethere said
11:22 AM Dec 6, 2021
We are using SI units.
Buzz Lightbulb said
11:30 AM Dec 6, 2021
Roy E wrote:
All in all, a very interesting discussion but, can someone tell me, will hydrogen fueled internal combustion engines produce oxides of nitrogen? Not mentioned anywhere I can see. Cheers, Roy.
-- Edited by Roy E on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 12:38:42 PM
I don't believe, though someone may correct me on this, that there are any reactions with the nitrogen in the air because it is NOT combustion of the hydrogen that creates the electricity. The fuel cell uses the catalyst to produce electricity by combining the hydrogen with the oxygen to produce water and electron flow between the anode and cathode in the fuel cell. There is no combustion, therefore no high temperature 'explosions' that cause reactions with the other gases in the air.
Platinum is currently used in most fuel cells and that is on the the reasons for the expense but I have read somewhere that newer fuel cells can use a cheaper catalyst but I don't know if those cells are in yet production. The price of fuel cells will come down over time.
Someone mentioned that pure water is needed for electrolysis. That didn't gell with my memory of hydrogen production in high school. The water needs to be very conductive and that is usually achieved by adding salt. Does sea water have the right amount of salt? I don't know. I haven't looked into this but certainly pure drinking water is NOT needed.
Hydrogen is expensive to make. Blue hydrogen, made from fossil fuels, is initially cheaper, because of the initial infrastructure, but it becomes more expensive over time because the coal or gas must be mined.
Green hydrogen is initially more expensive, because of the investment in PVCs, wind turbines, tidal generators and possibly pumped hydro. However, after the infrastructure is established there is no need to pay for the sunshine, wind, tides or pumped water (unless the latter needs to be bought). Maybe green hydrogen production could be next to the ocean in an unpopulated, culturally acceptable location.
Green hydrogen, over its lifetime, will produce less CO2e emissions than blue hydrogen and therefore is better for the environment.
Australia has vast open areas where renewable generation can be achieved so it would be greatly economical for Australia to invest in green hydrogen as there is a very big international market. Such as, Japan, which do not have the open areas for solar power. Selling green hydrogen wil also be beneficial to those countries in a carbon trading scheme.
This video shows a lot about the pros and cons of hydrogen cars. I don't know the qualifications of the Science Scout nor the producers of the video. There does seem a little bias towards Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV) but most of the content is sound according to what I've learnt over the years. Maybe the video was produced by the FCEV manufacturer?
The biggest problems for Australia are: currently there is not enough production of green hydrogen (though Twiggy and some state governments are looking into that), FCEV refuelling stations, and transport of the hydrogen.
The video does mention the safety of hydrogen tanks (and compares it to the safety of fossil fuel tanks). Also, automotive clubs, such as the NRMA, which has been installing EV charging stations in NSW and the ACT, could also invest or lobby for FCEV refuelling stations. The state governments are also likely to investigate in this infrastructure as ICE vehicles are outdated.
I'm not going to investigate this much because someone will have opposing arguments. I will say that FCEVs are a good alternative to EVs and especially ICE vehicles.
Please enjoy this video:
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 6th of December 2021 11:37:07 AM
We of the Never Never,
You are certainly a very different unit. The climate v weather pundits should be glad to have your support.
We are all so thankful that Captain Cook discovered the original sewer outlet which was disposing of Sydneys excrement waste into the sea.
Had we had all decentralised then, we would not have had a need to build a *new and improved model* which can spew forth many times more excrement than what was previously happening.
On a side note, If you have time, have a read of the article in the above post and in an attempt to replace each oxygen atom that is taken from the atmosphere in an attempt to generate clean H Power you could plant a tree.
If I may assume you have 10 productive years of your life still available to you (god permitting) and you planted one tree a day then we would have an extra 3650 trees all helping to produce oxygen for our atmosphere.
Isnt that amazing, and what a great result from just one person. If we all stopped and realised this for just a few minutes I wonder how much better off we would all be.
I know that in practice this may not be possible for all of Australias population but if one third of us planted just one tree per year that would be over 7 million new trees to provide a natural method of putting oxygen back into our air.
If we all did this each year (one tree a year) then when our government representative turns up to the meeting that demands us to send a bucket load of money to some dubious bottomless money pit, that representative could turn around and say * we arent sending money we are contributing to your perceived climate problem by having our population planting trees.* In ten years we would have 70 million new trees.
Wouldnt that be good We of the Never Never, that we could also tell them that we are going to stop spewing tonnes of excrement into the ocean as well.
We need alternatives to fossil fuels. Hydrogen and EVs are currently, the most scientific way to go for transport.
If we don't reduce the CO2 emissions the oceans will be ruined by the absorption of CO2 that makes the oceans more acidic. Scientists say that the shells and homes of those marine creatures that have them are already weakened and therefore threatened. Many of these creatures are the base of the oceanic food chain. If these creatures die out because of CO2 emissions most, if not all, of the marine creatures will die.
CO2 emissions are more of a threat to the oceans than desalination plants.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 10:57:40 AM
The solution is Peter, that until all research covers all problems it is more productive for all of us to plant a tree.
But to answer question number 1
it is 9 times the size of the H tank that is used in the process. Simple terms, for example a 500 litre H tank will need to contain 4500 litres of water
(4.5 tonnes )to prevent it being discharged onto the road, unless of course we then build H Power collection tanks like dump points.
Read the last sentence of the article where the author thinks that most people wont want to bother.
This has not been thought through at all.
Question number 2
The ICE does not produce 4500 litre of water per 500 litres of fuel. I dont have the figure for the ICE but having owned and operated large ICEs for most of my life I dont think I have ever noticed litres of water being produced.
As I did say in another topic for every solution there appears another problem.
I also said in this topic that, a static H Power plant could be very practical but it needs to be designed an implemented with some thought.
Without knowing what Townsvilles intention for the H Plant, I think that there is a place for Hydrogen in the scheme of generating Green Power.
In the meantime just plant a tree. You might be surprised at the result.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 11:06:29 AM
Water vapour from our petrol engine.
30 times more productive to expand mangroves & sea grass than fiddle with trees.
When a petrol, diesel or gas powered internal combustion engine operates, it draws in air for oxygen for the combustion process.
Of course, around 80% of the air drawn in is Nitrogen and, I believe, during the combustion process some of the Nitrogen combines with Oxygen to form various oxides of Nitrogen.
These oxides of nitrogen are reportedly very harmful to everything.
Can someone assure me that during the combustion process of Hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, oxides of Nitrogen will not be formed and emitted?
Cheers,
Roy.
Your car would have more than likely, a conservative fuel tank size of 60 litres ( probably more but who is arguing)
Try tipping 540 litres of water behind your car and then moving around or driving it out of there if it is black soil.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 11:32:06 AM
30 times, wow,
Now which side are you arguing on.
Maybe we could all throw our buckets of money into the research of mangroves and sea grasses.
As I suggested you are a real asset to the climate change pundits.
All in all, a very interesting discussion but, can someone tell me, will hydrogen fueled internal combustion engines produce oxides of nitrogen?
Not mentioned anywhere I can see.
Cheers,
Roy.
-- Edited by Roy E on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 12:38:42 PM
My guess is they would have to if they are relying on atmospheric air to complete combustion.
Someone will come up with an explanation.
I'm busy volunteering on the pre polling for the Greens.
I heard that you were so Green, *you eat your own Boogers*.
A great bunch of people here from all parties volunteering helping each other.
There sounds like that there will plenty to eat for lunch then..
Great place Manly, plenty of great food.
I dont think it is an Internal Combustion Engine. Its a Hydrogen unit that produces Electrical energy that drive electric motors to turn the wheels. Not a piston engine
-- Edited by elliemike on Thursday 2nd of December 2021 09:32:08 PM
They use nitrogen and a fuel cell to produce electricity instead of storing electricity in batteries.
Cheers,
Peter
From about 2200psi
www.youtube.com/watch
bob
Manly, 7 miles from Sydney and 1000 miles from care.
A great little project for any who want to make Hydrogen
We used to fill balloons with H by using galvanised nails, acid and water. in a bottle. DONT DO THIS AT HOME KIDDIES.
Did anyone care to notice how much water was left in the H Generator Vessel after the process. It was not included as a detail in the process.
There is a post in this topic above, with the actual figures.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Monday 6th of December 2021 09:18:25 AM
Not only metric, most people are in the 21c now.
Actually the quote is not metric or imperial relative, but for the pedantic.
1 MILE = 1.609344 kilometres.
Go ahead, pick that to bits.
We are using SI units.
I don't believe, though someone may correct me on this, that there are any reactions with the nitrogen in the air because it is NOT combustion of the hydrogen that creates the electricity. The fuel cell uses the catalyst to produce electricity by combining the hydrogen with the oxygen to produce water and electron flow between the anode and cathode in the fuel cell. There is no combustion, therefore no high temperature 'explosions' that cause reactions with the other gases in the air.
Platinum is currently used in most fuel cells and that is on the the reasons for the expense but I have read somewhere that newer fuel cells can use a cheaper catalyst but I don't know if those cells are in yet production. The price of fuel cells will come down over time.
Someone mentioned that pure water is needed for electrolysis. That didn't gell with my memory of hydrogen production in high school. The water needs to be very conductive and that is usually achieved by adding salt. Does sea water have the right amount of salt? I don't know. I haven't looked into this but certainly pure drinking water is NOT needed.
Hydrogen is expensive to make. Blue hydrogen, made from fossil fuels, is initially cheaper, because of the initial infrastructure, but it becomes more expensive over time because the coal or gas must be mined.
Green hydrogen is initially more expensive, because of the investment in PVCs, wind turbines, tidal generators and possibly pumped hydro. However, after the infrastructure is established there is no need to pay for the sunshine, wind, tides or pumped water (unless the latter needs to be bought). Maybe green hydrogen production could be next to the ocean in an unpopulated, culturally acceptable location.
Green hydrogen, over its lifetime, will produce less CO2e emissions than blue hydrogen and therefore is better for the environment.
Australia has vast open areas where renewable generation can be achieved so it would be greatly economical for Australia to invest in green hydrogen as there is a very big international market. Such as, Japan, which do not have the open areas for solar power. Selling green hydrogen wil also be beneficial to those countries in a carbon trading scheme.
This video shows a lot about the pros and cons of hydrogen cars. I don't know the qualifications of the Science Scout nor the producers of the video. There does seem a little bias towards Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV) but most of the content is sound according to what I've learnt over the years. Maybe the video was produced by the FCEV manufacturer?
The biggest problems for Australia are: currently there is not enough production of green hydrogen (though Twiggy and some state governments are looking into that), FCEV refuelling stations, and transport of the hydrogen.
The video does mention the safety of hydrogen tanks (and compares it to the safety of fossil fuel tanks). Also, automotive clubs, such as the NRMA, which has been installing EV charging stations in NSW and the ACT, could also invest or lobby for FCEV refuelling stations. The state governments are also likely to investigate in this infrastructure as ICE vehicles are outdated.
I'm not going to investigate this much because someone will have opposing arguments. I will say that FCEVs are a good alternative to EVs and especially ICE vehicles.
Please enjoy this video:
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Monday 6th of December 2021 11:37:07 AM