I remember during the 1990s when Ray Martin reported on the prevalence of sexual abuse among the aboriginal community in Wilcannia. I seem to recall him saying that nearly every girl had been abused by the time she turned 18.
Alcohol abuse is rife in aboriginal communities, and many have self imposed restrictions. I think the evidence is plentiful.
I seem to recall that a few years ago a school was shut down in Townsville because teachers were too afraid to attend. The students were predominantly aboriginal.
I would argue that one could dispassionately assess the level of personal security in the population by examining the premiums for house and contents insurance policies.
Given that an area has a disproportionately high crime rate, would it be prudent to visit such area just to demonstrate that one is not a racist, especially if one is a frail old man or woman?
Cuppa said
10:42 AM Mar 28, 2022
Hairyone wrote:
Are you sure this post wasn't really started to generate a race related debate and show off your articulate use of the Queens english?
Of course it was intended to generate debate around the racism often involved in painting entire communities for the sins of a few & how this is a phenomena almost exclusively reserved for aboriginal communities. And the impact that it has on travelling folk around feeling discomfort & fear to visit some Australian locations. Thanks for the compliment btw, I may not always manage to be as articulate as I'd like, but I do try.
Blues Man said
10:46 AM Mar 28, 2022
Cuppa wrote:
Hairyone wrote:
Are you sure this post wasn't really started to generate a race related debate and show off your articulate use of the Queens english?
Of course it was intended to generate debate around the racism often involved in painting entire communities for the sins of a few & how this is a phenomena almost exclusively reserved for aboriginal communities. And the impact that it has on travelling folk around feeling discomfort & fear to visit some Australian locations. Thanks for the compliment btw, I may not always manage to be as articulate as I'd like, but I do try.
Hey Cuppa ,i think you have explained yourself very well from your first post to the last.
Cheers.
Cuppa said
11:08 AM Mar 28, 2022
dorian wrote:
I remember during the 1990s when Ray Martin reported on the prevalence of sexual abuse among the aboriginal community in Wilcannia. I seem to recall him saying that nearly every girl had been abused by the time she turned 18.
Alcohol abuse is rife in aboriginal communities, and many have self imposed restrictions. I think the evidence is plentiful.
I seem to recall that a few years ago a school was shut down in Townsville because teachers were too afraid to attend. The students were predominantly aboriginal.
I would argue that one could dispassionately assess the level of personal security in the population by examining the premiums for house and contents insurance policies.
Given that an area has a disproportionately high crime rate, would it be prudent to visit such area just to demonstrate that one is not a racist, especially if one is a frail old man or woman?
A common response to attempts to discuss how changes in our behaviour may be helpful, is to largely sidestep this by more finger pointing.
To be sucked in to discussion about your points would, I suggest, do nothing but support the circular status quo. We all know that there are many problems in aboriginal communities, but I have no intention of getting into what the causes are, nor what is real & what is mud slinging, nor the similarities within white society which are simply better hidden.
In the context of my intention for this thread - to examine what we can positively do ourselves to lessen the problematic disrespect of aboriginal communities generally, all I will point out about what you have said is that you are simply doing more of the same, perpetuating the 'reputation' problem. The only difference to several other posts in this thread which have done similar, is that you have tried to 'up the ante' by your evocative claims around child sexual abuse. I will point out however, without engaging in further debate on the topic myself, that there are many who consider what you take as fact to be grossly overstated.
Aussie1 said
11:18 AM Mar 28, 2022
Hairyone wrote:
Hahahaha.....Are you sure this post wasn't really started to generate a race related debate and show off your articulate use of the Queens english?
My thoughts as well Hairyone, nothing like setting up a "controversial" subject that clearly limits respondents due to the big "R" card ready to pounce. Complete waste of time in my opinion
Kebbin said
11:23 AM Mar 28, 2022
Racists do not need to be set up they are quite happy to rant on & on about their simple minded attitudes toward others!
Cuppa said
11:34 AM Mar 28, 2022
86GTS wrote:
Its impossible to treat others as equals when they are clearly not. We don't go around stealing & vandalising things but they do. This doesn't apply to all of them but in some of these towns with a reputation there is an active minority present. Yes, there are plenty of non-indigenous low lifes around too. We didn't wait until retirement to travel extensively. We've been heading outback since the 70's Not much has changed in that time & we've had a number of "interesting experiences". The less said the better.
I have been thinking about this response & I guess I'd have to say that it both makes me feel uncomfortable but also I think illustrates what I view as the problem.
Not of course the 'whole' gamut of problems that have been imposed & self imposed upon aboriginals, & the subsequent problems that have arisen.
But rather one of the most significant problems in the context of this thread about 'reputation' & the flow on effects of that for travelling white folk.
"Them & Us".
"They"
But it is the opening statement saying "Its impossible to treat others as equals when they are clearly not" which has been troubling me the most.
The trouble that I have with it is that it can be understood it two very different ways. One I can relate to & one I would find very disturbing.
If the meaning intended is that "Like any disadvantaged & disenfranchised sector of the Australian community aboriginal people fail to get a fair (equal) go" then I am comfortable that an issue which needs airing is being aired.
However if the meaning is that 'aboriginals are clearly not equal to white folk because they are somehow 'lesser' by virtue of their race then this is very clearly a racist view .
Aussie1 said
12:24 PM Mar 28, 2022
Kebbin wrote:
Racists do not need to be set up they are quite happy to rant on & on about their simple minded attitudes toward others!
And there you go
-- Edited by Aussie1 on Monday 28th of March 2022 12:24:59 PM
Wannabe nomad said
12:46 PM Mar 28, 2022
When I came to Australia in 1976 as a young divorced mum (from a working class background). I had no idea!
I moved to a Middle Class Australian suburb and expected every other person I met to be indigenous., I was clueless.
I have learned a lot since then, I've seen a lot of change, yet not much change either.
I have only just learned (I'm not all that bright by the way) the phrase 'endemic racism' which really made me think and re-frame the way I see things, past, present and future: because it's a very subtle form of racism, so actually harder to combat.
I think this is am important topic and I'm glad Cuppa brought it up.
I'm horrified to learn (on 4corners) that remote communities children and young people are dying of heart disease caused by rumatic fever, which is caused by poor living conditions and lack of access to something as simple as timely access to antibiotics; when this is a 3rd would condition these days.
However, I understand the need as a solo female traveller to feel safe when one is asleep, so I will listen to advice and be wary of 'rough places' regardless of who lives there. There's good and bad people everywhere.
Wannabe nomad said
12:48 PM Mar 28, 2022
Or was it Darion who brought it up either way thanks
dorian said
01:44 PM Mar 28, 2022
The problem with inferior health outcomes for aboriginal people needs a different perspective and perhaps a different understanding. We can lay the blame at remoteness, but what about those indigenous people who live in predominately non-indigenous suburbs? I take advantage of Medicare and bulk billing, as would most indigenous people. We have access to the same public hospitals and practitioners, so why would their medical outcomes be any less favourable than mine? What more can the authorities do for them?
I have an aboriginal friend who works for the Aboriginal Health Service. When I asked him this question, he said that aboriginal people have a deep mistrust of doctors and hospitals. Part of his job is to drive out to the homes of these people and cajole them into seeking medical help.
By the way, I am also an immigrant, and I know how it feels to be the target of racism.
Wannabe nomad said
01:59 PM Mar 28, 2022
Your right Dorian complex problems, and what works somewhere won't work somewhere else. The particular place mentioned in the 4 corners report also had complex issues, but one of them was if you were aboriginal the hospital would only talk to you through a locked door at night, if you were white you were let you in and that is racist. To send away a sick person because of race is just not on.
After all I don't judge all men as violent because I've been abused in the past
Cuppa said
02:36 PM Mar 28, 2022
Wannabe nomad wrote:
When I came to Australia in 1976 as a young divorced mum (from a working class background). I had no idea! I moved to a Middle Class Australian suburb and expected every other person I met to be indigenous., I was clueless. I have learned a lot since then, I've seen a lot of change, yet not much change either. I have only just learned (I'm not all that bright by the way) the phrase 'endemic racism' which really made me think and re-frame the way I see things, past, present and future: because it's a very subtle form of racism, so actually harder to combat. I think this is am important topic and I'm glad Cuppa brought it up. I'm horrified to learn (on 4corners) that remote communities children and young people are dying of heart disease caused by rumatic fever, which is caused by poor living conditions and lack of access to something as simple as timely access to antibiotics; when this is a 3rd would condition these days. However, I understand the need as a solo female traveller to feel safe when one is asleep, so I will listen to advice and be wary of 'rough places' regardless of who lives there. There's good and bad people everywhere.
You are right to be wary, & to want to be able to sleep in safety.
All travellers want the same & experience teaches us to trust our instincts.
If I felt unsafe anywhere I wouldn't stay, & I also listen to advice from others. However I have often 'tested' that advice & found circumstances to be quite different to what had been advised.
eg.last year social media was full of accounts of young indigenous thieves around one specific Caravan Park in the NPA at the top of Cape York. (often with accompanying anti indigenous comments) Apparently anything not locked away was being stolen and the culprits were escaping on horseback. Literally hundreds of folk reporting gangs of horseback thieves, many no doubt just repeating what someone else had told them. The reality was rather different. There had been a period during which multiple caravan parks (not just one as reported) were affected by the thieving antics of one young person. He was caught & the thieving stopped. We have been up here on the Cape for most of his year & I spoke to a number of locals about this, all whom were pleased that the little ratbag had been caught. But the reputation never stopped being embellished & spread. We stayed for several nights at the one CP where 'gangs' of young locals were still being reported running rampant (having been reassured by other locals that it had been a small problem now dealt with) & of course there we experienced no problem at all.
I recollect similar 'reports' about a caravan park in Ceduna years ago & reading about how someone had put in a fair amount of effort to track down the origins of a then current reputation. As I recall it was traced back to a single incident(!) which had occurred some several years earlier, & been posted about on a forum similar to this one but the reputation was still doing the rounds.
Cuppa said
02:46 PM Mar 28, 2022
dorian wrote:
The problem with inferior health outcomes for aboriginal people needs a different perspective and perhaps a different understanding. We can lay the blame at remoteness, but what about those indigenous people who live in predominately non-indigenous suburbs? I take advantage of Medicare and bulk billing, as would most indigenous people. We have access to the same public hospitals and practitioners, so why would their medical outcomes be any less favourable than mine? What more can the authorities do for them?
I have an aboriginal friend who works for the Aboriginal Health Service. When I asked him this question, he said that aboriginal people have a deep mistrust of doctors and hospitals. Part of his job is to drive out to the homes of these people and cajole them into seeking medical help.
By the way, I am also an immigrant, and I know how it feels to be the target of racism.
A reasonable observation made Dorian in response to Wannabe Nomad's post, although perhaps another distraction to the thread about 'reputation & avoidance'?
dorian said
03:39 PM Mar 28, 2022
Wannabe nomad wrote:
Your right Dorian complex problems, and what works somewhere won't work somewhere else. The particular place mentioned in the 4 corners report also had complex issues, but one of them was if you were aboriginal the hospital would only talk to you through a locked door at night, if you were white you were let you in and that is racist. To send away a sick person because of race is just not on.
After all I don't judge all men as violent because I've been abused in the past
Let me play the devil's advocate. This thread began by implying that, if we avoided communities with high aboriginal populations, we were racists. I would argue that we're simply acting out of fear, and such fears are based on experiences, either our own or those of others.
We don't know why the hospital treated their visitors differently at night. The majority of the staff would have been female nurses. There have been plenty of assaults against hospital staff and paramedics, and perhaps these nurses felt vulnerable. Were there aboriginal gangs in the community? Mine has its share of them. The fact that the policy differs between night and day pretty much tells you that it's based on fear, not racism.
I seem to recall that a nurse was murdered when she visited a remote aboriginal community some years ago. Perhaps this was the same town? Who knows? Did the journalists dig any deeper?
As I said, I'm just a devil's advocate ...
KevinJ said
03:46 PM Mar 28, 2022
I know of two suburbs in Sydney, one which has a 24*7 chemist which has the door locked and they only open it when they see who is at the door, the other is a bottle shop which has the spirits cabinets all locked. Neither suburb has aboriginal residents.
Are We Lost said
04:28 PM Mar 28, 2022
dorian wrote:The fact that the policy differs between night and day pretty much tells you that it's based on fear, not racism.
I think that part of your post clearly sums it up.
If you were working at a small hospital and your feared for your safety, what would you do? Trusting the ABC to tell the whole story would be folly.
Cuppa said
05:40 PM Mar 28, 2022
dorian wrote:
This thread began by implying that, if we avoided communities with high aboriginal populations, we were racists. I would argue that we're simply acting out of fear, and such fears are based on experiences, either our own or those of others.
Not at all Dorian, I wrote "No-one pretends that many indigenous communities don't suffer problems, but the real problem is that this provides the fearful or the blaming with an excuse to avoid & to tell others to do the same."
The fearful - as your second sentence describes
The blaming. Blaming may or may not be racist. Some is/some isn't.
hufnpuf said
08:38 PM Mar 28, 2022
KevinJ wrote:
I know of two suburbs in Sydney, one which has a 24*7 chemist which has the door locked and they only open it when they see who is at the door, the other is a bottle shop which has the spirits cabinets all locked. Neither suburb has aboriginal residents.
Isn't it fairly standard security to have locked doors after hours? I've got a 7/11 up the road. At night time, you can't go inside the shop, you only get to talk to the attendant/pay through a little hatch thing. I've also been to 24 hr chemists where a security guard is posted to let people in to a closed door.
The article about the girl who died after being fobbed off at the country hospital was about more than just locked doors. They (according to the article) gave her a "shut-up" pill (panadol) and told her to go away. She was seriously ill from rheumatic heart disease, and she died. Other people have died after being fobbed off at hospitals, there can be deficiencies in the health systems as well as racism/lack of services for country people compared to in the city.
86GTS said
05:35 AM Mar 29, 2022
Cuppa wrote:
86GTS wrote:
Its impossible to treat others as equals when they are clearly not. We don't go around stealing & vandalising things but they do. This doesn't apply to all of them but in some of these towns with a reputation there is an active minority present. Yes, there are plenty of non-indigenous low lifes around too. We didn't wait until retirement to travel extensively. We've been heading outback since the 70's Not much has changed in that time & we've had a number of "interesting experiences". The less said the better.
I have been thinking about this response & I guess I'd have to say that it both makes me feel uncomfortable but also I think illustrates what I view as the problem.
Not of course the 'whole' gamut of problems that have been imposed & self imposed upon aboriginals, & the subsequent problems that have arisen.
But rather one of the most significant problems in the context of this thread about 'reputation' & the flow on effects of that for travelling white folk.
"Them & Us".
"They"
But it is the opening statement saying "Its impossible to treat others as equals when they are clearly not" which has been troubling me the most.
The trouble that I have with it is that it can be understood it two very different ways. One I can relate to & one I would find very disturbing.
If the meaning intended is that "Like any disadvantaged & disenfranchised sector of the Australian community aboriginal people fail to get a fair (equal) go" then I am comfortable that an issue which needs airing is being aired.
However if the meaning is that 'aboriginals are clearly not equal to white folk because they are somehow 'lesser' by virtue of their race then this is very clearly a racist view .
You can interpret my reply any way that you like.
What it actually says is that I personally don't go around stealing & vandalising other people possessions.
It has absolutely nothing to do with race.
vince56 said
10:36 AM Mar 29, 2022
This post is descending into a racism rant, as I said earlier, this is a Grey Nomad site, designed to discuss travel. This thread will end up as another "closed " post, let's just move on and away from this garbage!
Aussie1 said
11:14 AM Mar 29, 2022
vince56 wrote:
This post is descending into a racism rant, as I said earlier, this is a Grey Nomad site, designed to discuss travel. This thread will end up as another "closed " post, let's just move on and away from this garbage!
Exactly vince56, It is my view the original post was simply someone "grandstanding" or as they say fishing for controversial responses. Of course it will head into the big "R" territory, to me that was clearly the intention.
The sooner it is closed the better.
Heaven knows we already have one well known "grandstander" on this forum, I don't believe we need any more
I remember during the 1990s when Ray Martin reported on the prevalence of sexual abuse among the aboriginal community in Wilcannia. I seem to recall him saying that nearly every girl had been abused by the time she turned 18.
https://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/wopapub/senate/committee/indigenousaffairs_ctte/hearings/lyla_coorey_report_march05_pdf.ashx
The sociologists can try to explain the reasons for such behaviour, but I find it hard to blame it on poverty.
Anyway, something major was going on that needed to be addressed and curtailed, hence the Intervention by Howard:
https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/the-wound/the-intervention/
Alcohol abuse is rife in aboriginal communities, and many have self imposed restrictions. I think the evidence is plentiful.
I seem to recall that a few years ago a school was shut down in Townsville because teachers were too afraid to attend. The students were predominantly aboriginal.
I would argue that one could dispassionately assess the level of personal security in the population by examining the premiums for house and contents insurance policies.
Given that an area has a disproportionately high crime rate, would it be prudent to visit such area just to demonstrate that one is not a racist, especially if one is a frail old man or woman?
Of course it was intended to generate debate around the racism often involved in painting entire communities for the sins of a few & how this is a phenomena almost exclusively reserved for aboriginal communities. And the impact that it has on travelling folk around feeling discomfort & fear to visit some Australian locations. Thanks for the compliment btw, I may not always manage to be as articulate as I'd like, but I do try.
Hey Cuppa ,i think you have explained yourself very well from your first post to the last.
Cheers.
A common response to attempts to discuss how changes in our behaviour may be helpful, is to largely sidestep this by more finger pointing.
To be sucked in to discussion about your points would, I suggest, do nothing but support the circular status quo. We all know that there are many problems in aboriginal communities, but I have no intention of getting into what the causes are, nor what is real & what is mud slinging, nor the similarities within white society which are simply better hidden.
In the context of my intention for this thread - to examine what we can positively do ourselves to lessen the problematic disrespect of aboriginal communities generally, all I will point out about what you have said is that you are simply doing more of the same, perpetuating the 'reputation' problem. The only difference to several other posts in this thread which have done similar, is that you have tried to 'up the ante' by your evocative claims around child sexual abuse. I will point out however, without engaging in further debate on the topic myself, that there are many who consider what you take as fact to be grossly overstated.
My thoughts as well Hairyone, nothing like setting up a "controversial" subject that clearly limits respondents due to the big "R" card ready to pounce. Complete waste of time in my opinion
I have been thinking about this response & I guess I'd have to say that it both makes me feel uncomfortable but also I think illustrates what I view as the problem.
Not of course the 'whole' gamut of problems that have been imposed & self imposed upon aboriginals, & the subsequent problems that have arisen.
But rather one of the most significant problems in the context of this thread about 'reputation' & the flow on effects of that for travelling white folk.
"Them & Us".
"They"
But it is the opening statement saying "Its impossible to treat others as equals when they are clearly not" which has been troubling me the most.
The trouble that I have with it is that it can be understood it two very different ways. One I can relate to & one I would find very disturbing.
If the meaning intended is that "Like any disadvantaged & disenfranchised sector of the Australian community aboriginal people fail to get a fair (equal) go" then I am comfortable that an issue which needs airing is being aired.
However if the meaning is that 'aboriginals are clearly not equal to white folk because they are somehow 'lesser' by virtue of their race then this is very clearly a racist view .
And there you go
-- Edited by Aussie1 on Monday 28th of March 2022 12:24:59 PM
I moved to a Middle Class Australian suburb and expected every other person I met to be indigenous., I was clueless.
I have learned a lot since then, I've seen a lot of change, yet not much change either.
I have only just learned (I'm not all that bright by the way) the phrase 'endemic racism' which really made me think and re-frame the way I see things, past, present and future: because it's a very subtle form of racism, so actually harder to combat.
I think this is am important topic and I'm glad Cuppa brought it up.
I'm horrified to learn (on 4corners) that remote communities children and young people are dying of heart disease caused by rumatic fever, which is caused by poor living conditions and lack of access to something as simple as timely access to antibiotics; when this is a 3rd would condition these days.
However, I understand the need as a solo female traveller to feel safe when one is asleep, so I will listen to advice and be wary of 'rough places' regardless of who lives there. There's good and bad people everywhere.
Or was it Darion who brought it up either way thanks
I have an aboriginal friend who works for the Aboriginal Health Service. When I asked him this question, he said that aboriginal people have a deep mistrust of doctors and hospitals. Part of his job is to drive out to the homes of these people and cajole them into seeking medical help.
By the way, I am also an immigrant, and I know how it feels to be the target of racism.
Your right Dorian complex problems, and what works somewhere won't work somewhere else. The particular place mentioned in the 4 corners report also had complex issues, but one of them was if you were aboriginal the hospital would only talk to you through a locked door at night, if you were white you were let you in and that is racist. To send away a sick person because of race is just not on.
After all I don't judge all men as violent because I've been abused in the past
Nicely put.
You are right to be wary, & to want to be able to sleep in safety.
All travellers want the same & experience teaches us to trust our instincts.
If I felt unsafe anywhere I wouldn't stay, & I also listen to advice from others. However I have often 'tested' that advice & found circumstances to be quite different to what had been advised.
eg.last year social media was full of accounts of young indigenous thieves around one specific Caravan Park in the NPA at the top of Cape York. (often with accompanying anti indigenous comments) Apparently anything not locked away was being stolen and the culprits were escaping on horseback. Literally hundreds of folk reporting gangs of horseback thieves, many no doubt just repeating what someone else had told them. The reality was rather different. There had been a period during which multiple caravan parks (not just one as reported) were affected by the thieving antics of one young person. He was caught & the thieving stopped. We have been up here on the Cape for most of his year & I spoke to a number of locals about this, all whom were pleased that the little ratbag had been caught. But the reputation never stopped being embellished & spread. We stayed for several nights at the one CP where 'gangs' of young locals were still being reported running rampant (having been reassured by other locals that it had been a small problem now dealt with) & of course there we experienced no problem at all.
I recollect similar 'reports' about a caravan park in Ceduna years ago & reading about how someone had put in a fair amount of effort to track down the origins of a then current reputation. As I recall it was traced back to a single incident(!) which had occurred some several years earlier, & been posted about on a forum similar to this one but the reputation was still doing the rounds.
A reasonable observation made Dorian in response to Wannabe Nomad's post, although perhaps another distraction to the thread about 'reputation & avoidance'?
Let me play the devil's advocate. This thread began by implying that, if we avoided communities with high aboriginal populations, we were racists. I would argue that we're simply acting out of fear, and such fears are based on experiences, either our own or those of others.
We don't know why the hospital treated their visitors differently at night. The majority of the staff would have been female nurses. There have been plenty of assaults against hospital staff and paramedics, and perhaps these nurses felt vulnerable. Were there aboriginal gangs in the community? Mine has its share of them. The fact that the policy differs between night and day pretty much tells you that it's based on fear, not racism.
I seem to recall that a nurse was murdered when she visited a remote aboriginal community some years ago. Perhaps this was the same town? Who knows? Did the journalists dig any deeper?
As I said, I'm just a devil's advocate ...
I know of two suburbs in Sydney, one which has a 24*7 chemist which has the door locked and they only open it when they see who is at the door, the other is a bottle shop which has the spirits cabinets all locked. Neither suburb has aboriginal residents.
I think that part of your post clearly sums it up.
If you were working at a small hospital and your feared for your safety, what would you do? Trusting the ABC to tell the whole story would be folly.
Not at all Dorian, I wrote "No-one pretends that many indigenous communities don't suffer problems, but the real problem is that this provides the fearful or the blaming with an excuse to avoid & to tell others to do the same."
The fearful - as your second sentence describes
The blaming. Blaming may or may not be racist. Some is/some isn't.
Isn't it fairly standard security to have locked doors after hours? I've got a 7/11 up the road. At night time, you can't go inside the shop, you only get to talk to the attendant/pay through a little hatch thing. I've also been to 24 hr chemists where a security guard is posted to let people in to a closed door.
The article about the girl who died after being fobbed off at the country hospital was about more than just locked doors. They (according to the article) gave her a "shut-up" pill (panadol) and told her to go away. She was seriously ill from rheumatic heart disease, and she died. Other people have died after being fobbed off at hospitals, there can be deficiencies in the health systems as well as racism/lack of services for country people compared to in the city.
You can interpret my reply any way that you like.
What it actually says is that I personally don't go around stealing & vandalising other people possessions.
It has absolutely nothing to do with race.
Exactly vince56, It is my view the original post was simply someone "grandstanding" or as they say fishing for controversial responses. Of course it will head into the big "R" territory, to me that was clearly the intention.
The sooner it is closed the better.
Heaven knows we already have one well known "grandstander" on this forum, I don't believe we need any more