Which tow vehicle in $50k-$80k range for 2800-3500 caravan would you get?
yobarr said
10:34 AM May 28, 2022
Stretch60 wrote:
Yobar that is correct hence I never load my van to be more than 3000kg even though it is rated at 3500kg. OP did say 2800 to 3500 so just offering an alternative in that price range.
Cheers Stretch
All is good Stretch. Thanks for clarifying that. Could I also say that it is great to see that you understand the situation, and that you load responsibly. Let us hope that others imitate you. Cheers
mixedup said
11:38 AM May 28, 2022
Yobarr - what sedans/wagon would be ok to tow 3.5t in your view? Besides Patrol Y62? (Assuming one keeps vehicle payload down to reasonable - so couple not family).
Are We Lost said
12:57 PM May 28, 2022
mixedup wrote:
......... Assuming one keeps vehicle payload down to reasonable - so couple not family).
Not a good idea.
The difficulty is the laden tow vehicle should weigh more than what it is towing. While some people may stretch this guideline, the further you depart from it the less safe your rig. So on that basis your tow vehicle should weigh at least 3500kg when laden, and have a GVM of at least 3850kg to support the additional load of the towball.
The Caravan Council of Australia actually recommends the laden tow vehicle should be 30% heavier than what it is towing .... and that is disconnected weight. Personally, I believe that is unneccessarily conservative, but if you follow their recommendations, your tow vehicle should weigh at least 4550kg, and have a GVM of 4900kg to support the desired 10% towball weight in addition.
yobarr said
01:42 PM May 28, 2022
mixedup wrote:
Yobarr - what sedans/wagon would be ok to tow 3.5t in your view? Besides Patrol Y62? (Assuming one keeps vehicle payload down to reasonable - so couple not family).
First of all could I applaud you for being so responsible with your weights? However,to safely tow 3500kg, unless you go to the Big Yank Tanks, (NOT Ram 1500) your choices are limited. Other than the Y62 the only car that I can suggest is a VDJ79R Landcruiser V8 twin-cab but because they're such a great car there is a huge waiting list, with second-hand examples selling for waaaay more than new price. However, since there are only two of you, you may like to consider a VDJ78 which is a 2 door station wagon, for want of a better term. There is a mile of storage space, and plenty of room to sleep in the car if you wish, and has same towing specs as the twin-cab. Others may have suggestions, but I cannot think of any at the moment. If you are happy to limit your towed weight to 3000kg or so, the window opens dramatically. When towing, if safety is of any concern always the weight on the wheels of the car should be greater than the weight on the wheels of the van. The most common figure suggested is 10% but people who have, for many years, studied weights and dynamics suggest 20%-30%. My car is 16% heavier than my van's Weight on wheels, which still is 50kg less than my GTM. Gets complicated, I know, but you will have no trouble choosing a car if you limit your towed weight to 3000-3200kg. Remember, it doesn't matter if you tow a van with 3500kg ATM as long as you don't load it over 3000-3200kg. If you would like to discuss in detail feel free to send me a PM (Private message) with a contact number and I will call you.In the past I have helped several members this way, with great results. Cheers
P.S This is the popular twin-cab 79 model and shows how used price is way above new price. However, the VDJ78 Troopy is more affordable.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 28th of May 2022 09:08:12 PM
Thanks. Im interested in a van with the centered bed (can walk around each side), separate toilet/shower, bunks (family). So they can be from 20 to 23. Want it a bit off-road, be able to do some hours of dirt road (but not crazy 4wding). So yet to work through this and understand what caravan weight. Was hoping could start considering tow vehicle at the same time, but almost seems need to finalise van first, especially if wanting to see if a LC200 could be one of the options.
Did just see an Essential Caravan (Outlander) that seemed in line with what Im interested in. Was 3.3T.
yobarr said
03:10 PM May 28, 2022
mixedup wrote:
Thanks. Im interested in a van with the centered bed (can walk around each side), separate toilet/shower, bunks (family). So they can be from 20 to 23. Want it a bit off-road, be able to do some hours of dirt road (but not crazy 4wding). So yet to work through this and understand what caravan weight. Was hoping could start considering tow vehicle at the same time, but almost seems need to finalise van first, especially if wanting to see if a LC200 could be one of the options.
Did just see an Essential Caravan (Outlander) that seemed in line with what Im interested in. Was 3.3T.
Had a quick look and I think that the 3300kg refers to the axle carrying capacity, so it's big gear. Perhaps it might be best to choose a car first, and then select a van within that car's capabilities? As outlined previously, an LC200 cannot safely tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Selective loading, and keeping weight out of back of the car, may allow a bit more, but not good. If you wish to discuss you could reply to the PM that I have sent to you. Cheers
P.S Could you give us the full specs for the van you're looking at? The tare is likely to be high, thus limiting load capacity, but may be OK. Whatever you do it is important not to listen too much to the spiel that the salesman will give you, as often their income is commission-based. Not all RV dealers are as honest or ethical as is Montie, an RV dealer in Brisbane who regularly contributes to this forum. Private sellers generally wouldn't have a clue.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 28th of May 2022 03:45:57 PM
Bobdown said
04:09 PM May 28, 2022
mixedup wrote:
Thanks. Im interested in a van with the centered bed (can walk around each side), separate toilet/shower, bunks (family). So they can be from 20 to 23. Want it a bit off-road, be able to do some hours of dirt road (but not crazy 4wding). So yet to work through this and understand what caravan weight. Was hoping could start considering tow vehicle at the same time, but almost seems need to finalise van first, especially if wanting to see if a LC200 could be one of the options.
Did just see an Essential Caravan (Outlander) that seemed in line with what Im interested in. Was 3.3T.
Mixedup,
Get some expert advice from motoring bodies or the like, with all due respect to Yobarr and what he knows as an expurt, he is so anti LC200 it's not funny.
Actually bordering on madness is his dislike of the most popular tug in Australia, if that's what you want go and check them out and do your own homework.
Cheers Bob
Are We Lost said
05:03 PM May 28, 2022
The LC200 is a good tow vehicle but certainly not for 3500kg.
yobarr said
05:03 PM May 28, 2022
Bobdown wrote:
mixedup wrote:
Thanks. Im interested in a van with the centered bed (can walk around each side), separate toilet/shower, bunks (family). So they can be from 20 to 23. Want it a bit off-road, be able to do some hours of dirt road (but not crazy 4wding). So yet to work through this and understand what caravan weight. Was hoping could start considering tow vehicle at the same time, but almost seems need to finalise van first, especially if wanting to see if a LC200 could be one of the options.
Did just see an Essential Caravan (Outlander) that seemed in line with what Im interested in. Was 3.3T.
Mixedup,
Get some expert advice from motoring bodies or the like, with all due respect to Yobarr and what he knows as an expurt, he is so anti LC200 it's not funny.
Actually bordering on madness is his dislike of the most popular tug in Australia, if that's what you want go and check them out and do your own homework.
Cheers Bob van
Good advice there Bob, but the facts are the facts, and cannot be changed by "advice" from anyone with a vested interest, whether that be someone selling a 3500kg van to an unsuspecting person, or someone promoting their own choice of vehicle. Any responsible RV dealer would point this out, I believe. Many people are very happy with their LC200s, and will tell of towing their big van "100,000km Mate. No worries. Just gotta drive to the conditions Mate" or some such rubbish. Such an "achievement" is more a result of good luck than it is of good management. As always, I am happy to share my knowledge with anybody, but some of the rubbish printed by so-called "motoring bodies' borders on the ridiculous. Do you really think that they're going to upset one of their biggest advertisers? Some of the garbage posted as 'advice' by these motoring writers borders on the ridiculous. Why do you think that it is law that if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg it must ALWAYS have more weight on its wheels than is on the wheels of any PIG trailer it tows? Simple physics. You do, of course, realise that when a 3500kg van is being towed by an LC200, a 350kg towball weight adds well over 500kg to the lightweight rear axle of the car. And NO, a cure-it-all WDH will NOT fix that as outlined many times by me, while a McHitch magnifies the problem. The LC200 is indisputably a lovely car, big, powerful,comfortable and it holds its value well, but it cannot safely tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Simple physics, and indisputable. Stupidly short wheelbase and low rear axle capacity preclude the safe towing of any more weight as a PIG trailer. In the past I have outlined how tow ratings are given, and if you'd read that you'd understand. Cheers
P.S Had to chuckle when I saw your words "most popular tug in Australia" as it reminded me of my time in East Berlin in the 1980s, prior to the wall coming down. The little Trabant seemed to be a very popular car until it finally dawned on me that it was the only car available in East Berlin. The LC200 is similar in that it is the only apparent choice, but that applies only to people who don't understand weights, or don't want to know. C'est la vie. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 28th of May 2022 05:11:38 PM
Bobdown said
05:52 PM May 28, 2022
yobarr wrote:
Bobdown wrote:
mixedup wrote:
Thanks. Im interested in a van with the centered bed (can walk around each side), separate toilet/shower, bunks (family). So they can be from 20 to 23. Want it a bit off-road, be able to do some hours of dirt road (but not crazy 4wding). So yet to work through this and understand what caravan weight. Was hoping could start considering tow vehicle at the same time, but almost seems need to finalise van first, especially if wanting to see if a LC200 could be one of the options.
Did just see an Essential Caravan (Outlander) that seemed in line with what Im interested in. Was 3.3T.
Mixedup,
Get some expert advice from motoring bodies or the like, with all due respect to Yobarr and what he knows as an expurt, he is so anti LC200 it's not funny.
Actually bordering on madness is his dislike of the most popular tug in Australia, if that's what you want go and check them out and do your own homework.
Cheers Bob van
Good advice there Bob, but the facts are the facts, and cannot be changed by "advice" from anyone with a vested interest, whether that be someone selling a 3500kg van to an unsuspecting person, or someone promoting their own choice of vehicle. Any responsible RV dealer would point this out, I believe. Many people are very happy with their LC200s, and will tell of towing their big van "100,000km Mate. No worries. Just gotta drive to the conditions Mate" or some such rubbish. Such an "achievement" is more a result of good luck than it is of good management. As always, I am happy to share my knowledge with anybody, but some of the rubbish printed by so-called "motoring bodies' borders on the ridiculous. Do you really think that they're going to upset one of their biggest advertisers? Some of the garbage posted as 'advice' by these motoring writers borders on the ridiculous. Why do you think that it is law that if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg it must ALWAYS have more weight on its wheels than is on the wheels of any PIG trailer it tows? Simple physics. You do, of course, realise that when a 3500kg van is being towed by an LC200, a 350kg towball weight adds well over 500kg to the lightweight rear axle of the car. And NO, a cure-it-all WDH will NOT fix that as outlined many times by me, while a McHitch magnifies the problem. The LC200 is indisputably a lovely car, big, powerful,comfortable and it holds its value well, but it cannot safely tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Simple physics, and indisputable. Stupidly short wheelbase and low rear axle capacity preclude the safe towing of any more weight as a PIG trailer. In the past I have outlined how tow ratings are given, and if you'd read that you'd understand. Cheers
P.S Had to chuckle when I saw your words "most popular tug in Australia" as it reminded me of my time in East Berlin in the 1980s, prior to the wall coming down. The little Trabant seemed to be a very popular car until it finally dawned on me that it was the only car available in East Berlin. The LC200 is similar in that it is the only apparent choice, but that applies only to people who don't understand weights, or don't want to know. C'est la vie. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 28th of May 2022 05:11:38 PM
Same spiel yobarr, different post, different day, exactly what you have posted a 100 bloody times about pigs. All I am saying if he wants a LC200, get some advice from someone else besides you, a mechanic, the NRMA or anybody but an unknown on a Nomad website.
And maybe some might only want to tow 3000kgs in their LC200 and be happy with that, not be a over loaded truck like your 6800kg setup looking to come a cropper.
Give it a rest FFS.
Cheers Bob
Stretch60 said
07:27 PM May 28, 2022
Bob I don't know Mr Yobar however his knowledge on weights is pretty comprehensive. After following suggestions and recommendations on this forum I did my own calculations and setup my Amarok accordingly. Whilst rated at a tow capacity of 3500 I could never legally tow that as the Amarok has a GCM of 6000kg. At a kerb weight of 2196kg I have 884kg to play with before GVM of 3080kg. Add canopy @100kg 2 people @ 200kg, yes I am big hence the nickname, tool bag @40kg spare fuel 3 x 20l @60kg, TBW @260kg, small bbq, spare water, firewood, chairs etc, it doesn't take much to be overweight and cop a big fine. My measurements are not too scientific but they are close. With all that is required to be comfortable on an extended holiday I can never legally tow 3500kg let alone the safety aspect. So I thank Mr Yobar for highlighting the issues of incorrect weight.
Stretch
-- Edited by Stretch60 on Saturday 28th of May 2022 07:29:13 PM
KJB said
07:41 PM May 28, 2022
Stretch60 wrote:
Bob I don't know Mr Yobar however his knowledge on weights is pretty comprehensive. After following suggestions and recommendations on this forum I did my own calculations and setup my Amarok accordingly. Whilst rated at a tow capacity of 3500 I could never legally tow that as the Amarok has a GCM of 6000kg. At a kerb weight of 2196kg I have 884kg to play with before GVM of 3080kg. Add canopy @100kg 2 people @ 200kg, yes I am big hence the nickname, tool bag @40kg spare fuel 3 x 20l @60kg, TBW @260kg, small bbq, spare water, firewood, chairs etc, it doesn't take much to be overweight and cop a big fine. My measurements are not too scientific but they are close. With all that is required to be comfortable on an extended holiday I can never legally tow 3500kg let alone the safety aspect. So I thank Mr Yobar for highlighting the issues of incorrect weight.
Stretch
-- Edited by Stretch60 on Saturday 28th of May 2022 07:29:13 PM
Good to see what can be done with an open mind and some research. Well done , great outcome .. KB
Bobdown said
09:41 PM May 28, 2022
Stretch60 wrote:
Bob I don't know Mr Yobar however his knowledge on weights is pretty comprehensive. After following suggestions and recommendations on this forum I did my own calculations and setup my Amarok accordingly. Whilst rated at a tow capacity of 3500 I could never legally tow that as the Amarok has a GCM of 6000kg. At a kerb weight of 2196kg I have 884kg to play with before GVM of 3080kg. Add canopy @100kg 2 people @ 200kg, yes I am big hence the nickname, tool bag @40kg spare fuel 3 x 20l @60kg, TBW @260kg, small bbq, spare water, firewood, chairs etc, it doesn't take much to be overweight and cop a big fine. My measurements are not too scientific but they are close. With all that is required to be comfortable on an extended holiday I can never legally tow 3500kg let alone the safety aspect. So I thank Mr Yobar for highlighting the issues of incorrect weight.
Stretch
Yes Stretch, I hear what you are saying, I also think there are very few vehicles that can tow 3500kg.......therein lies the problem with caravan manufacturers, customers want all the toys and extras.
But let's be totally honest.
Yobarr knows a lot about weights.
Yobarr doesn't like WDH's.
Yobarr likes 79 series.
Yobarr doesn't like LC200.
I drive a LC200.
I like LC200's.
Me and lots of others don't like Yobarr shoving his opinions in our faces.
Ok to have an opinion and offer some advice, but let others have a opinion as well without being slammed down.
Fair enough.......Bob
yobarr said
05:32 PM May 29, 2022
Just like to thank Andrew (Stretch60), backed up by Kevin (KJB) for their kind words regarding the effort I consistently put in on the forum , trying to help others understand their weights, and more particularly the limitations of their particular vehicles. And could I congratulate Andrew on responsibly researching his vehicle, and fitting it out accordingly? Many people assume that because a vehicle is advertised as having a 3500kg tow rating, it then can safely tow a 3500kg caravan. Such is most certainly NOT the case, and many times I have explained why this is. Similarly, another member claims that I dislike the LC200, which again is not the case. Whilst I wouldn't be seen dead in one, the LC200 is a great car. BIG, powerful, luxurious(?) and it holds its value well. Great for impressing the neighbours, taking the kids to school, and safely towing up to around 3000kg, BUT don't ever think that the average holidaymaker can use it to safely tow a 3500kg caravan. Can't be done. Any advice I give is made in an effort to help others, and it certainly is not my intention to see them "slammed down" Cheers
Having Pm'd Yobarr privately, he has confirmed that with all his knowledge and advice, a 70 series cannot tow a 3.5t van SAFELY either.(when towing 3.5T the 70 series is not 20% heavier than the van even if loaded up!) So if you want to tow 3.5T why not do it in some form of comfort as nothing is safe AND comfortable. And one thing Yobarr cannot deny is that a 70 series Tojo is one of the most uncomfortable vehicles for long distance travel there is. And the most comfortable SUV is a brand he does not rubbish but also does not list as being a more capable tow tug than a Tojo or Nissan. Popcorn and peanuts ready!!!
Hitting the road said
09:49 AM May 30, 2022
"The vehicle is a Jeep Grand Cherokee, but the top of the line model. Looks fairly fancy and modern shape. It has the Mercedes engine and gearbox. 3500kg towing cap. And his van weighs 2700kg fully loaded. The car cost $86000."
Hi Ric, if that Jeep is less than 10 years old it has the VM Motori V6 Turbo Intercooled engine it it...184kw and 570 nm torque. The Merc engine was discontinued in 2011 in the Grand Cherokee.
That said I have the VM Motori in my diesel Grand Cherokee with the 8 speed ZF gearbox. ...weights are: Tare 2267kg, GVM 2949kg, payload 682kg. GCM 6450kg. Tow capacity 3500kg. You will note that even at full GVM there is still capacity to tow 3500kg and be under GCM.
It was only the 5.7L petrol and the Diesel models that had the higher tow capacity, partly due I'd say to the beefier gearbox in these models to handle the higher torque output....plus the load leveling rear suspension fitment.
Are We Lost said
10:37 AM May 30, 2022
Plenty of power there. That part is good. But towing 3500kg? Maybe from the dealer to home, but no way would it be viable for your travels.
You don't say what the rear axle load is, and that may be the first limiting factor. Towing 3500kg, the towball load should be at least 10%. With 350kg on the towball, that adds about 500kg to the rear axle load. Does it have that capacity? But let's look at the rest. With a payload of jist 682kg, and 350kg taken up by towball load, that means just 332kg for fuel, passengers and a few toothbrushes. Most of what else you carry would need to be carried in the van. A very undesirable situtation.
But the bigger problem is that the maximum it can weigh is 2949kg. That means at best the van would be almost 20% heavier than the tow vehicle. It should be the other way around. An accident waiting to happen.
A long wheelbase would help towards overcoming some of the shortcomings, but it's only reasonable at 2915mm.
Towing a lighter van somewhat under 3000kg I believe the GC would be a great tow vehicle. Pleanty of power and comfort but limited in towing ability due to weights.
HandyWalter said
12:20 PM May 30, 2022
If you want a Jeep better get in quick. New one cannot even tow 3T
Hitting the road said
01:17 PM May 30, 2022
Hi Stephen,
I made no mention of towing 3500kg, merely wrote that the Jeep has that capacity should some one wish to explore that. FYI the stated rear axle capacity is 1678kg, that I doubt would be exceeded with an extra 250kg ball weight...front axle stated capacity from 1452kg depending on engine fitted...total = 3130kg. GVM 2949kg.
I am sure the manufacturer took the location of additional loading in the vehicle in to account when calculating capacities and max weights.
If you wish to discuss weights and dynamics...the tow ball in my set up is 1100mm behind the rear axle giving reasonably good stability as opposed to many rigs on the road with a tow ball as far as 1500mm behind the rear axle...a measurement not considered by many. You don't need a long wheelbase tow vehicle if you understand vehicle dynamics with proper axle loading and placement.
If you decided to drop 350kg on the tow ball of your Jeep you are over the manufacturers capacity being the manufacturer states tow ball down force capacity as 327kg. And that is fine in other countries where tow ball weights are more like 5% of ATM.
My van ATM is 2655kg. The weight imposed on the tow ball loaded ready to go was in fact 250kg when I weighed it recently, so in fact is a tad less than 10% of ATM, 250kg is closer to 9.5%. That would be easily remedied with full gas bottles and still be under the 327kg max weight, but might exceed the van's ATM. The Hayman Reece tow bar fitted has a labeled 3500kg tow capacity as the vehicle does.
The car weighs a little over 10% more than the van, both at GVM and ATM, which they are at when traveling...being I allow 83kg for 83 litres of fuel, 250 kg on the tow ball, additional fridge and tools 70kg, extras such as bull bar, spot lights, roof rack, Max trax and awning = 120kg, aux battery 35kg, myself and the bride and some gear 168kg The weight in fact is roughly 2993kg, but at fuel burn down to around half a tank of fuel falls to around manufacturer GVM of 2949kg. You would be nuts to tow a van that weighed more than your tow vehicle, but we see it every day, I am ok with being a bit over in the tow vehicle, but not with the van.
( just as an aside, many heavy trucks are over weight on the front axle with full tanks of fuel, and need to burn off fuel to become legal)
Anyway, I am extremely aware and across this stuff being from a transport back ground, I like to know exactly what everything weighs and what weight limitations apply, as well as understanding the dynamics associated with towing...having towed 105 tonne of trailers behind a tow vehicle weighing just 15 tonne you get an idea. The weight over the rear drive axles is critical to the safety of these combinations.
For my own safety reasons too I do not use a WDH system being I prefer weight to be over the rear wheels rather than lift weight from the rear and transferring to the front. The vehicle sits level with the van attached so no need anyway.
Cheers
-- Edited by Hitting the road on Monday 30th of May 2022 01:18:07 PM
Are We Lost said
03:47 PM May 30, 2022
Hitting the Road, as I said, for towing vans well under 3000kg I would certainly consider the Jeep as a great option. Yours, at 2655kg certainly meets that, although the weight you carry in accessories is taking you right to the limits.
I was prompted to respond mainly due to the title of the thread (wanting to tow 2800 - 3500kg) as well as this part of your previous post referring to the Grand Cherokee ....
"You will note that even at full GVM there is still capacity to tow 3500kg and be under GCM."
I interpreted your comment as a recommendation that it was suitable to tow 3500kg. But with your van you still can't have a full fuel tank without going over the GVM.
Do you have weighbridge figures for rear axle at Tare and again when loaded for travel? With only 1678kg limit and the accessories etc you carry, I can see it would be quite difficult to stay within that limit. Most SUV shapes have pretty good front/rear weight distrubution at Tare. I listed the items you said in a different order and used conservative weight estimates:
Mostly rear: Tools, aux battery, fridge, fuel, (say 200 on rear axle)
Rear overhang: 250kg towball (say 340 on rear axle) (250kg actually calculates to 344kg based on wheelbase 2915mm and overhang 1100mm)
Front overhang: Bullbar (say 20 off rear axle)
So that makes 620kg added to the rear axle. Possible but I would be surprised if it was not overloaded.
As for safety factors, the towball overhang of 1100mm is quite good, and better than most, so that is a positive. But the shortish wheelbase of 2915mm detracts from that benefit. The Caravan Council of Australia recommendation is for the ratio to be less than 3:1. Not many would comply with that.
My belief is the sum of the different measures should be considered. Towball percentage download, wheelbase to overhang ratio, tow vehicle to van weight ratio .... there is more. With just one of these being well within guidelines means you can stretch things a bit with the the others. For example, a 5% towball download may be fine if you are towing a lightish van, but not towing a heavy one.
And I forgot to mention something in your post .... it's not valid to add Front Axle Load and Rear Axle load together as in your post to arrive at a figure above GVM. Also the diesel fuel weighs closer to 70kg because it is lighter than water.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Monday 30th of May 2022 03:53:19 PM
Hitting the road said
04:57 PM May 30, 2022
"My belief is the sum of the different measures should be considered. Towball percentage download, wheelbase to overhang ratio, tow vehicle to van weight ratio .... there is more. With just one of these being well within guidelines means you can stretch things a bit with the the others."
All your points are valid, and yes, all weights and measures need to be taken in to account when deciding to hookup a caravan or trailer to your vehicle, but would you be surprised that very few people in fact do...or even understand the dynamics at work?
...adding front and rear load capacities of axles will give the overall vehicle potential carrying capacity. How else would that be calculated? A vehicle's GVM will never be more than combined axle capacities...
... for example, a 6x4 heavy truck will usually be fitted with a front axle with a legal load carrying capacity of 8,000 kgs, (upgradeable to 9000kgs in some cases, )the rear tandem axles will have a joint load carrying capacity of 16,500 kgs, together they add to an overall manufacturer GVM of 24,500kgs. A twin steer 8x4 will have additional steer axle capacity to usually 11,000 kgs increasing the overall available GVM to the operator.
Then tyres come in to play as they have load ratings as well, just as car tyres do...
(and to clarify, my Jeep has a 93 litre fuel tank, the weight I used at 83kg's is about right, but I didn't want to add confusion as the manufacturers tare weight usually includes 10 litres of fuel)
Are We Lost said
05:32 PM May 30, 2022
I realise a wording error in my previous post. CCA recommendation is for at least 3:1 ratio of wheelbase to overhang measurements ratio (not less than, as I typed).
And as you say, it's troubling that so many people are totally oblivious of some of those weight and measurement guidelines.
As for adding the front and rear axle loads, I still don't see the point, because the 3130kg you quote can never be achieved. But as long as people know GVM can't be exceeded is the important part.
Hylife said
06:29 PM May 30, 2022
Toyota Fortuner up to 3,100kg
My van varies between 2,800kg and 3,000kg depending on water tanks etc. No probs in 5 years so far.
Hitting the road said
06:51 PM May 30, 2022
"As for adding the front and rear axle loads, I still don't see the point, because the 3130kg you quote can never be achieved. But as long as people know GVM can't be exceeded is the important part."
Spot on, of course not, it informs that the combined axle capacities should never be exceeded...especially for smaller commercial vehicles...but then, consumers' really don't give a rats or care for that matter what the details are, they often rely on the salesperson to know, or maybe don't care anyway. That said, most sales people selling these things have no idea either. ( I spent 10 years in the "Motor Trade" so I have seen the worst)
It is difficult, if not impossible to even find what are basic and considered important detail these days. Years ago the "Owner's Handbook" had every detail listed of capacities, vehicle requirements, you name it, it was there. I have read newer owner manuals from front to back and can never find what I need to know, and really should know.
These days the majority of "owners Manuals" inform you how good their "infotainment" system is..and wow, it has "Apple Play" or Android capabilities as well...forget about serious details, like what you need to know and should know, what it's real capabilities are...but wow, check out the techno gizmo's...
Whenarewethere said
12:58 PM Jun 1, 2022
A Land Rover Perentie with 2 tonne payload. One of the school run cars on Sydney Northern Beaches, parked outside Harvey Norman but probably ducking next door to Bunnings.
67HR said
10:56 PM Jun 7, 2022
Bicyclecamper wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Bicyclecamper wrote:
Well, I am guess ing weight of the van, it is 22 foot long, an Avan Jensen./ Massive thing, nice looking he bought it 10 years ago new. But his current Jeep is only 18 months old. It is not here at the moment, so when he comes home will, find out what model it is.
Thanks Ric. The reason I ask is that a quick bit of research shows that late model Jeeps seem to have low GVMs, so therefore they have limited towing capacity, but I look forward to any extra information that you can supply. Cheers
The vehicle is a Jeep Grand Cherokee, but the top of the line model. Looks fairly fancy and modern shape. It has the Mercedes engine and gearbox. 3500kg towing cap. And his van weighs 2700kg fully loaded. The car cost $86000.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Friday 27th of May 2022 03:46:39 PM
Ok, the Grand Cherokee (WK2) top of the line is the Overland. It also has a 3.0lt V6 VM Motori diesel engine (italian) with a ZF 8 sp transmission. This engine transmission combo has been std in diesel GC's since mid 2013 to 2021. Previous to mid 2013 they had the Merc engine and 5sp trans.
Mine is a 2014 Laredo (poverty pack) rated for 3500kg towing.
Hope this helps
kgarnett said
09:25 AM Jun 8, 2022
Yobarr,
You have mentioned that the rear axle rating of the LC200 is 1950kg. Can you tell me what the actual kg loading on the rear axle for an unladen LC200 at tare of around 2700kg depending on variant. Obviously less than 1950kg but by how much.
Do you know what the tare weight distribution is to front and rear axles.
ie is it say 65% of the tare weight on the front and 35% on the rear etc.
Knowing these values will give an indication of how much additional load can be placed on the rear axle before exceeding the 1950kg rating.
Ken
-- Edited by kgarnett on Wednesday 8th of June 2022 09:43:55 AM
yobarr said
10:58 AM Jun 8, 2022
kgarnett wrote:
Yobarr,
You have mentioned that the rear axle rating of the LC200 is 1950kg. Can you tell me what the actual kg loading on the rear axle for an unladen LC200 at tare of around 2700kg depending on variant. Obviously less than 1950kg but by how much.
Do you know what the tare weight distribution is to front and rear axles.
ie is it say 65% of the tare weight on the front and 35% on the rear etc.
Knowing these values will give an indication of how much additional load can be placed on the rear axle before exceeding the 1950kg rating.
Ken
Hi Ken. Not sure where I've hidden those figures, but I will have a look when I get home. Memory says something like 1400kg front and 1300kg rear. Will address this later. Cheers
LATER. Well, seems the memory is not too bad as my records show 1450kg front axle at tare, and 1300kg rear axle. As you suggest, weights depend on variant but most LC200s seem to be around 3000kg with fuel (110kg) and two occupants (150kg). Remember that we then need a towbar (30kg?) and that almost all of this added weight is on the rear axle, so 1550Kg on that axle is very easily reached. However, we still have no tools, no luggage, no beer and no towball download. Assuming we tow the claimed 3500kg, a 350kg (10%) towball weight adds an absolute minimum of 500kg to the rear axle, so before we even load our gear we're overloaded on that axle by 100kg. Then we get the WDH brigade who think that that will sort the problem, but all it does is increase TBO (towball overhang) thus multiplying the load added to the rear axle, increase the effects of yaw, and exceed the van's ATM by transferring weight to the van's axle group. The much vaunted McHitch only makes these things worse by again increasing TBO. If safety is of any concern, an LC200 cannot safely tow much more than 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Hope this helps you, but I welcome any more questions you may have. Cheers
P.S Looks like example of the tail wagging the dog here, as evidenced by the damage to the car's rear door. Jacknife? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 8th of June 2022 03:15:11 PM
All is good Stretch. Thanks for clarifying that. Could I also say that it is great to see that you understand the situation, and that you load responsibly. Let us hope that others imitate you. Cheers
Not a good idea.
The difficulty is the laden tow vehicle should weigh more than what it is towing. While some people may stretch this guideline, the further you depart from it the less safe your rig. So on that basis your tow vehicle should weigh at least 3500kg when laden, and have a GVM of at least 3850kg to support the additional load of the towball.
The Caravan Council of Australia actually recommends the laden tow vehicle should be 30% heavier than what it is towing .... and that is disconnected weight. Personally, I believe that is unneccessarily conservative, but if you follow their recommendations, your tow vehicle should weigh at least 4550kg, and have a GVM of 4900kg to support the desired 10% towball weight in addition.
First of all could I applaud you for being so responsible with your weights? However,to safely tow 3500kg, unless you go to the Big Yank Tanks, (NOT Ram 1500) your choices are limited. Other than the Y62 the only car that I can suggest is a VDJ79R Landcruiser V8 twin-cab but because they're such a great car there is a huge waiting list, with second-hand examples selling for waaaay more than new price. However, since there are only two of you, you may like to consider a VDJ78 which is a 2 door station wagon, for want of a better term. There is a mile of storage space, and plenty of room to sleep in the car if you wish, and has same towing specs as the twin-cab. Others may have suggestions, but I cannot think of any at the moment. If you are happy to limit your towed weight to 3000kg or so, the window opens dramatically. When towing, if safety is of any concern always the weight on the wheels of the car should be greater than the weight on the wheels of the van. The most common figure suggested is 10% but people who have, for many years, studied weights and dynamics suggest 20%-30%. My car is 16% heavier than my van's Weight on wheels, which still is 50kg less than my GTM. Gets complicated, I know, but you will have no trouble choosing a car if you limit your towed weight to 3000-3200kg. Remember, it doesn't matter if you tow a van with 3500kg ATM as long as you don't load it over 3000-3200kg. If you would like to discuss in detail feel free to send me a PM (Private message) with a contact number and I will call you.In the past I have helped several members this way, with great results. Cheers
P.S This is the popular twin-cab 79 model and shows how used price is way above new price. However, the VDJ78 Troopy is more affordable.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 28th of May 2022 09:08:12 PM
Did just see an Essential Caravan (Outlander) that seemed in line with what Im interested in. Was 3.3T.
Had a quick look and I think that the 3300kg refers to the axle carrying capacity, so it's big gear. Perhaps it might be best to choose a car first, and then select a van within that car's capabilities? As outlined previously, an LC200 cannot safely tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Selective loading, and keeping weight out of back of the car, may allow a bit more, but not good. If you wish to discuss you could reply to the PM that I have sent to you. Cheers
P.S Could you give us the full specs for the van you're looking at? The tare is likely to be high, thus limiting load capacity, but may be OK. Whatever you do it is important not to listen too much to the spiel that the salesman will give you, as often their income is commission-based. Not all RV dealers are as honest or ethical as is Montie, an RV dealer in Brisbane who regularly contributes to this forum. Private sellers generally wouldn't have a clue.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 28th of May 2022 03:45:57 PM
Mixedup,
Get some expert advice from motoring bodies or the like, with all due respect to Yobarr and what he knows as an expurt, he is so anti LC200 it's not funny.
Actually bordering on madness is his dislike of the most popular tug in Australia, if that's what you want go and check them out and do your own homework.
Cheers Bob
Good advice there Bob, but the facts are the facts, and cannot be changed by "advice" from anyone with a vested interest, whether that be someone selling a 3500kg van to an unsuspecting person, or someone promoting their own choice of vehicle. Any responsible RV dealer would point this out, I believe. Many people are very happy with their LC200s, and will tell of towing their big van "100,000km Mate. No worries. Just gotta drive to the conditions Mate" or some such rubbish. Such an "achievement" is more a result of good luck than it is of good management. As always, I am happy to share my knowledge with anybody, but some of the rubbish printed by so-called "motoring bodies' borders on the ridiculous. Do you really think that they're going to upset one of their biggest advertisers? Some of the garbage posted as 'advice' by these motoring writers borders on the ridiculous. Why do you think that it is law that if a vehicle has a GVM above 4500kg it must ALWAYS have more weight on its wheels than is on the wheels of any PIG trailer it tows? Simple physics. You do, of course, realise that when a 3500kg van is being towed by an LC200, a 350kg towball weight adds well over 500kg to the lightweight rear axle of the car. And NO, a cure-it-all WDH will NOT fix that as outlined many times by me, while a McHitch magnifies the problem. The LC200 is indisputably a lovely car, big, powerful,comfortable and it holds its value well, but it cannot safely tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Simple physics, and indisputable. Stupidly short wheelbase and low rear axle capacity preclude the safe towing of any more weight as a PIG trailer. In the past I have outlined how tow ratings are given, and if you'd read that you'd understand. Cheers
P.S Had to chuckle when I saw your words "most popular tug in Australia" as it reminded me of my time in East Berlin in the 1980s, prior to the wall coming down. The little Trabant seemed to be a very popular car until it finally dawned on me that it was the only car available in East Berlin. The LC200 is similar in that it is the only apparent choice, but that applies only to people who don't understand weights, or don't want to know. C'est la vie. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 28th of May 2022 05:11:38 PM
Same spiel yobarr, different post, different day, exactly what you have posted a 100 bloody times about pigs. All I am saying if he wants a LC200, get some advice from someone else besides you, a mechanic, the NRMA or anybody but an unknown on a Nomad website.
And maybe some might only want to tow 3000kgs in their LC200 and be happy with that, not be a over loaded truck like your 6800kg setup looking to come a cropper.
Give it a rest FFS.
Cheers Bob
Bob I don't know Mr Yobar however his knowledge on weights is pretty comprehensive. After following suggestions and recommendations on this forum I did my own calculations and setup my Amarok accordingly. Whilst rated at a tow capacity of 3500 I could never legally tow that as the Amarok has a GCM of 6000kg. At a kerb weight of 2196kg I have 884kg to play with before GVM of 3080kg. Add canopy @100kg 2 people @ 200kg, yes I am big hence the nickname, tool bag @40kg spare fuel 3 x 20l @60kg, TBW @260kg, small bbq, spare water, firewood, chairs etc, it doesn't take much to be overweight and cop a big fine. My measurements are not too scientific but they are close. With all that is required to be comfortable on an extended holiday I can never legally tow 3500kg let alone the safety aspect. So I thank Mr Yobar for highlighting the issues of incorrect weight.
Stretch
-- Edited by Stretch60 on Saturday 28th of May 2022 07:29:13 PM
Good to see what can be done with an open mind and some research. Well done , great outcome .. KB
Yes Stretch, I hear what you are saying, I also think there are very few vehicles that can tow 3500kg.......therein lies the problem with caravan manufacturers, customers want all the toys and extras.
But let's be totally honest.
Yobarr knows a lot about weights.
Yobarr doesn't like WDH's.
Yobarr likes 79 series.
Yobarr doesn't like LC200.
I drive a LC200.
I like LC200's.
Me and lots of others don't like Yobarr shoving his opinions in our faces.
Ok to have an opinion and offer some advice, but let others have a opinion as well without being slammed down.
Fair enough.......Bob
Just like to thank Andrew (Stretch60), backed up by Kevin (KJB) for their kind words regarding the effort I consistently put in on the forum , trying to help others understand their weights, and more particularly the limitations of their particular vehicles. And could I congratulate Andrew on responsibly researching his vehicle, and fitting it out accordingly? Many people assume that because a vehicle is advertised as having a 3500kg tow rating, it then can safely tow a 3500kg caravan. Such is most certainly NOT the case, and many times I have explained why this is. Similarly, another member claims that I dislike the LC200, which again is not the case. Whilst I wouldn't be seen dead in one, the LC200 is a great car. BIG, powerful, luxurious(?) and it holds its value well. Great for impressing the neighbours, taking the kids to school, and safely towing up to around 3000kg, BUT don't ever think that the average holidaymaker can use it to safely tow a 3500kg caravan. Can't be done. Any advice I give is made in an effort to help others, and it certainly is not my intention to see them "slammed down" Cheers
Read my first line again Yobbo.........
Good for parts..........others can search the net too.
Cheers Bob
"The vehicle is a Jeep Grand Cherokee, but the top of the line model. Looks fairly fancy and modern shape. It has the Mercedes engine and gearbox. 3500kg towing cap. And his van weighs 2700kg fully loaded. The car cost $86000."
Hi Ric, if that Jeep is less than 10 years old it has the VM Motori V6 Turbo Intercooled engine it it...184kw and 570 nm torque. The Merc engine was discontinued in 2011 in the Grand Cherokee.
That said I have the VM Motori in my diesel Grand Cherokee with the 8 speed ZF gearbox. ...weights are: Tare 2267kg, GVM 2949kg, payload 682kg. GCM 6450kg. Tow capacity 3500kg. You will note that even at full GVM there is still capacity to tow 3500kg and be under GCM.
It was only the 5.7L petrol and the Diesel models that had the higher tow capacity, partly due I'd say to the beefier gearbox in these models to handle the higher torque output....plus the load leveling rear suspension fitment.
You don't say what the rear axle load is, and that may be the first limiting factor. Towing 3500kg, the towball load should be at least 10%. With 350kg on the towball, that adds about 500kg to the rear axle load. Does it have that capacity? But let's look at the rest. With a payload of jist 682kg, and 350kg taken up by towball load, that means just 332kg for fuel, passengers and a few toothbrushes. Most of what else you carry would need to be carried in the van. A very undesirable situtation.
But the bigger problem is that the maximum it can weigh is 2949kg. That means at best the van would be almost 20% heavier than the tow vehicle. It should be the other way around. An accident waiting to happen.
A long wheelbase would help towards overcoming some of the shortcomings, but it's only reasonable at 2915mm.
Towing a lighter van somewhat under 3000kg I believe the GC would be a great tow vehicle. Pleanty of power and comfort but limited in towing ability due to weights.
Hi Stephen,
I made no mention of towing 3500kg, merely wrote that the Jeep has that capacity should some one wish to explore that. FYI the stated rear axle capacity is 1678kg, that I doubt would be exceeded with an extra 250kg ball weight...front axle stated capacity from 1452kg depending on engine fitted...total = 3130kg. GVM 2949kg.
I am sure the manufacturer took the location of additional loading in the vehicle in to account when calculating capacities and max weights.
If you wish to discuss weights and dynamics...the tow ball in my set up is 1100mm behind the rear axle giving reasonably good stability as opposed to many rigs on the road with a tow ball as far as 1500mm behind the rear axle...a measurement not considered by many. You don't need a long wheelbase tow vehicle if you understand vehicle dynamics with proper axle loading and placement.
If you decided to drop 350kg on the tow ball of your Jeep you are over the manufacturers capacity being the manufacturer states tow ball down force capacity as 327kg. And that is fine in other countries where tow ball weights are more like 5% of ATM.
My van ATM is 2655kg. The weight imposed on the tow ball loaded ready to go was in fact 250kg when I weighed it recently, so in fact is a tad less than 10% of ATM, 250kg is closer to 9.5%. That would be easily remedied with full gas bottles and still be under the 327kg max weight, but might exceed the van's ATM.
The Hayman Reece tow bar fitted has a labeled 3500kg tow capacity as the vehicle does.
The car weighs a little over 10% more than the van, both at GVM and ATM, which they are at when traveling...being I allow 83kg for 83 litres of fuel, 250 kg on the tow ball, additional fridge and tools 70kg, extras such as bull bar, spot lights, roof rack, Max trax and awning = 120kg, aux battery 35kg, myself and the bride and some gear 168kg
The weight in fact is roughly 2993kg, but at fuel burn down to around half a tank of fuel falls to around manufacturer GVM of 2949kg.
You would be nuts to tow a van that weighed more than your tow vehicle, but we see it every day, I am ok with being a bit over in the tow vehicle, but not with the van.
( just as an aside, many heavy trucks are over weight on the front axle with full tanks of fuel, and need to burn off fuel to become legal)
Anyway, I am extremely aware and across this stuff being from a transport back ground, I like to know exactly what everything weighs and what weight limitations apply, as well as understanding the dynamics associated with towing...having towed 105 tonne of trailers behind a tow vehicle weighing just 15 tonne you get an idea. The weight over the rear drive axles is critical to the safety of these combinations.
For my own safety reasons too I do not use a WDH system being I prefer weight to be over the rear wheels rather than lift weight from the rear and transferring to the front. The vehicle sits level with the van attached so no need anyway.
Cheers
-- Edited by Hitting the road on Monday 30th of May 2022 01:18:07 PM
Hitting the Road, as I said, for towing vans well under 3000kg I would certainly consider the Jeep as a great option. Yours, at 2655kg certainly meets that, although the weight you carry in accessories is taking you right to the limits.
I was prompted to respond mainly due to the title of the thread (wanting to tow 2800 - 3500kg) as well as this part of your previous post referring to the Grand Cherokee ....
"You will note that even at full GVM there is still capacity to tow 3500kg and be under GCM."
I interpreted your comment as a recommendation that it was suitable to tow 3500kg. But with your van you still can't have a full fuel tank without going over the GVM.
Do you have weighbridge figures for rear axle at Tare and again when loaded for travel? With only 1678kg limit and the accessories etc you carry, I can see it would be quite difficult to stay within that limit. Most SUV shapes have pretty good front/rear weight distrubution at Tare. I listed the items you said in a different order and used conservative weight estimates:
So that makes 620kg added to the rear axle. Possible but I would be surprised if it was not overloaded.
As for safety factors, the towball overhang of 1100mm is quite good, and better than most, so that is a positive. But the shortish wheelbase of 2915mm detracts from that benefit. The Caravan Council of Australia recommendation is for the ratio to be less than 3:1. Not many would comply with that.
My belief is the sum of the different measures should be considered. Towball percentage download, wheelbase to overhang ratio, tow vehicle to van weight ratio .... there is more. With just one of these being well within guidelines means you can stretch things a bit with the the others. For example, a 5% towball download may be fine if you are towing a lightish van, but not towing a heavy one.
And I forgot to mention something in your post .... it's not valid to add Front Axle Load and Rear Axle load together as in your post to arrive at a figure above GVM. Also the diesel fuel weighs closer to 70kg because it is lighter than water.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Monday 30th of May 2022 03:53:19 PM
"My belief is the sum of the different measures should be considered. Towball percentage download, wheelbase to overhang ratio, tow vehicle to van weight ratio .... there is more. With just one of these being well within guidelines means you can stretch things a bit with the the others."
All your points are valid, and yes, all weights and measures need to be taken in to account when deciding to hookup a caravan or trailer to your vehicle, but would you be surprised that very few people in fact do...or even understand the dynamics at work?
...adding front and rear load capacities of axles will give the overall vehicle potential carrying capacity. How else would that be calculated? A vehicle's GVM will never be more than combined axle capacities...
... for example, a 6x4 heavy truck will usually be fitted with a front axle with a legal load carrying capacity of 8,000 kgs, (upgradeable to 9000kgs in some cases, )the rear tandem axles will have a joint load carrying capacity of 16,500 kgs, together they add to an overall manufacturer GVM of 24,500kgs. A twin steer 8x4 will have additional steer axle capacity to usually 11,000 kgs increasing the overall available GVM to the operator.
Then tyres come in to play as they have load ratings as well, just as car tyres do...
(and to clarify, my Jeep has a 93 litre fuel tank, the weight I used at 83kg's is about right, but I didn't want to add confusion as the manufacturers tare weight usually includes 10 litres of fuel)
I realise a wording error in my previous post. CCA recommendation is for at least 3:1 ratio of wheelbase to overhang measurements ratio (not less than, as I typed).
And as you say, it's troubling that so many people are totally oblivious of some of those weight and measurement guidelines.
As for adding the front and rear axle loads, I still don't see the point, because the 3130kg you quote can never be achieved. But as long as people know GVM can't be exceeded is the important part.
My van varies between 2,800kg and 3,000kg depending on water tanks etc. No probs in 5 years so far.
"As for adding the front and rear axle loads, I still don't see the point, because the 3130kg you quote can never be achieved. But as long as people know GVM can't be exceeded is the important part."
Spot on, of course not, it informs that the combined axle capacities should never be exceeded...especially for smaller commercial vehicles...but then, consumers' really don't give a rats or care for that matter what the details are, they often rely on the salesperson to know, or maybe don't care anyway. That said, most sales people selling these things have no idea either. ( I spent 10 years in the "Motor Trade" so I have seen the worst)
It is difficult, if not impossible to even find what are basic and considered important detail these days. Years ago the "Owner's Handbook" had every detail listed of capacities, vehicle requirements, you name it, it was there. I have read newer owner manuals from front to back and can never find what I need to know, and really should know.
These days the majority of "owners Manuals" inform you how good their "infotainment" system is..and wow, it has "Apple Play" or Android capabilities as well...forget about serious details, like what you need to know and should know, what it's real capabilities are...but wow, check out the techno gizmo's...
A Land Rover Perentie with 2 tonne payload. One of the school run cars on Sydney Northern Beaches, parked outside Harvey Norman but probably ducking next door to Bunnings.
Ok, the Grand Cherokee (WK2) top of the line is the Overland. It also has a 3.0lt V6 VM Motori diesel engine (italian) with a ZF 8 sp transmission. This engine transmission combo has been std in diesel GC's since mid 2013 to 2021. Previous to mid 2013 they had the Merc engine and 5sp trans.
Mine is a 2014 Laredo (poverty pack) rated for 3500kg towing.
Hope this helps
Yobarr,
You have mentioned that the rear axle rating of the LC200 is 1950kg.
Can you tell me what the actual kg loading on the rear axle for an unladen LC200 at tare of around 2700kg depending on variant.
Obviously less than 1950kg but by how much.
Do you know what the tare weight distribution is to front and rear axles.
ie is it say 65% of the tare weight on the front and 35% on the rear etc.
Knowing these values will give an indication of how much additional load can be placed on the rear axle before exceeding the 1950kg rating.
Ken
-- Edited by kgarnett on Wednesday 8th of June 2022 09:43:55 AM
Hi Ken. Not sure where I've hidden those figures, but I will have a look when I get home. Memory says something like 1400kg front and 1300kg rear. Will address this later. Cheers
LATER. Well, seems the memory is not too bad as my records show 1450kg front axle at tare, and 1300kg rear axle. As you suggest, weights depend on variant but most LC200s seem to be around 3000kg with fuel (110kg) and two occupants (150kg). Remember that we then need a towbar (30kg?) and that almost all of this added weight is on the rear axle, so 1550Kg on that axle is very easily reached. However, we still have no tools, no luggage, no beer and no towball download. Assuming we tow the claimed 3500kg, a 350kg (10%) towball weight adds an absolute minimum of 500kg to the rear axle, so before we even load our gear we're overloaded on that axle by 100kg. Then we get the WDH brigade who think that that will sort the problem, but all it does is increase TBO (towball overhang) thus multiplying the load added to the rear axle, increase the effects of yaw, and exceed the van's ATM by transferring weight to the van's axle group. The much vaunted McHitch only makes these things worse by again increasing TBO. If safety is of any concern, an LC200 cannot safely tow much more than 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Hope this helps you, but I welcome any more questions you may have. Cheers
P.S Looks like example of the tail wagging the dog here, as evidenced by the damage to the car's rear door. Jacknife? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 8th of June 2022 03:15:11 PM