Bratboy, maybe you are reading more into that comment than you should. Explaining the use of the controller button in an emergency and the importance of being able to do it instantly may be helpful. If your eyes are fully on the road as they should be, maybe your passenger will reach it a split second before you do. It's worthwhile that you both know instinctively to reach for it.
I too mounted mine in the centre, and found that extemely useful on one occasion. I was in the passenger seat and my partner was a towing beginner. She swerved too quickly to avoid a pothole, causing a swing to start. I reached forwards and hit that button in a fraction of a second, increasing the braking sensitivity at the same time. This stopped the swing in it's tracks before it picked up momentum on the return swing. If the button had been out of reach for the passenger, it may well have been a very different story. I have no problem with telling the passenger to hit it if a swing starts although I would probably get there first. Never had to so far.
Also, I recommend using that control for braking occasionally to appreciate how it works.
As for accelerating, I agree it is bad advice.
yobarr said
08:06 PM Jun 17, 2022
bratboy wrote:
Hairyone wrote:
I mounted my brake controller in the middle of the dash for that exact reason, with specific instructions to the Mrs, that if things get a bit untidy.....hit the button!
So your not capable of confident in managing your vehicle without outside assistance ,,,,, I wonder what a licencing officer would think of that ?
what you suggest could be more dangerous then the original sway .
Not a very well thought-out response, I reckon. Although I probably wouldn't mount a controller in the middle of the dash, I can think of no reason that it shouldn't be there? Consider the driver having a 'medical episode' where he is unable to properly control the car, at least Mum can jam the van brakes on! Many people drink coffee or eat sandwiches etc whilst driving, so there are no hands spare to activate the van brakes in an emergency, assuming one hand on the steering wheel. And I wonder how Mum's intervention could be "more dangerous than the original sway" as you suggest. How would the "licencing officer" even know that it was Mum who activated the brakes? For fear of confusing you, I will ask no more questions. Cheers
KevinJ said
09:36 PM Jun 17, 2022
My uncle had a heart attack whilst driving and my aunt was able to pull the hand brake on to stop the vehicle so I see no difference for the passenger to be able to stop the rig with the van brake given some modern hand brakes are on the floor now.
yobarr said
09:56 PM Jun 17, 2022
bratboy wrote:
Now your just being belligerent . you know full well its illegal to drive with one hand while eating or drinking and i am sure that you will find its also illegal for you as the driver to get someone else to perform any function relating to the operation of said vehicle . as for your stupid comment ,,,"How would the "licencing officer" even know that it was Mum who activated the brakes " you know that wasn't meant literally . finally as the super driver of the forum what exactly do you expect to happen when mother slams the van brakes on at say 90 kmh and locks everything up while sitting in the passengers seat with her knitting in her lap half asleep and not fully aware of what's happening . the driver needs to be TOTALLY capable of operating his vehicle or he should not be on the road , to suggest otherwise is stupid and dangerous , and for someone so invested in safety via everyone's weights to condone it is laughable .
As a matter of fact i will go one better and say you are arguing for the sake of arguing probably because your ego wont allow you to be wrong .
"Illegal to drive with one hand while eating or drinking" you say. There wouldn't be a man or woman who could honestly say they keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times. Personally, I very rarely have both hand on the steering wheel at once, unless I'm turning very sharp corners of manoeuvring the trailers. Usually one hand is on or near the gear lever if I'm starting off, climbing or descending hills, or slowing down, but once I'm under way one arm goes onto the driver's door window, or onto the esky, depending on how I feel. Because we're essentially a caravanners' forum it is fair to expect that we're playing tourists if we're towing the van, so I can't see why Mum would be "sitting in the passengers seat with her knitting in her lap half asleep" . Surely if we're tourists Mum would be taking in the sights? And if Mum "slams the brakes on at say 90kmh" as you suggest, the van would simply pull the car up in a straight line. Cheers
yobarr said
09:58 PM Jun 17, 2022
KevinJ wrote:
My uncle had a heart attack whilst driving and my aunt was able to pull the hand brake on to stop the vehicle so I see no difference for the passenger to be able to stop the rig with the van brake given some modern hand brakes are on the floor now.
Thanks Kevin, for your support, but I fear that your logic is likely to confuse some? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 17th of June 2022 09:59:21 PM
bratboy said
10:08 PM Jun 17, 2022
yobarr wrote:
bratboy wrote:
Now your just being belligerent . you know full well its illegal to drive with one hand while eating or drinking and i am sure that you will find its also illegal for you as the driver to get someone else to perform any function relating to the operation of said vehicle . as for your stupid comment ,,,"How would the "licencing officer" even know that it was Mum who activated the brakes " you know that wasn't meant literally . finally as the super driver of the forum what exactly do you expect to happen when mother slams the van brakes on at say 90 kmh and locks everything up while sitting in the passengers seat with her knitting in her lap half asleep and not fully aware of what's happening . the driver needs to be TOTALLY capable of operating his vehicle or he should not be on the road , to suggest otherwise is stupid and dangerous , and for someone so invested in safety via everyone's weights to condone it is laughable .
As a matter of fact i will go one better and say you are arguing for the sake of arguing probably because your ego wont allow you to be wrong .
"Illegal to drive with one hand while eating or drinking" you say. There wouldn't be a man or woman who could honestly say they keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times. Personally, I very rarely have both hand on the steering wheel at once, unless I'm turning very sharp corners of manoeuvring the trailers. Usually one hand is on or near the gear lever if I'm starting off, climbing or descending hills, or slowing down, but once I'm under way one arm goes onto the driver's door window, or onto the esky, depending on how I feel. Because we're essentially a caravanners' forum it is fair to expect that we're playing tourists if we're towing the van, so I can't see why Mum would be "sitting in the passengers seat with her knitting in her lap half asleep" . Surely if we're tourists Mum would be taking in the sights? And if Mum "slams the brakes on at say 90kmh" as you suggest, the van would simply pull the car up in a straight line. Cheers
I suggest you go back and do a refresher course because it is illegal to drive with only one hand on the wheel UNLESS changing gears , look it up . as for mum hitting the brake controller , the scenario was that things had gone pear shaped and the van was swaying in that situation locking up the van brakes could TRIP the van and make things worse that's why the driver needs to have control of that as well so he can apply and release as required . The uncle having a heart attack is not the same as someone assigning some of the safe operation of said vehicle to the passenger .
As for your last line "but I fear that your logic is likely to confuse some"
what you meant to say is that not everyone will abide by the gospel according to yobarr
-- Edited by bratboy on Friday 17th of June 2022 10:14:23 PM
Jaahn said
05:21 AM Jun 18, 2022
bratboy wrote:
I suggest you go back and do a refresher course because it is illegal to drive with only one hand on the wheel UNLESS changing gears , look it up. as for mum hitting the brake controller , the scenario was that things had gone pear shaped and the van was swaying in that situation locking up the van brakes could TRIP the van and make things worse that's why the driver needs to have control of that as well so he can apply and release as required . The uncle having a heart attack is not the same as someone assigning some of the safe operation of said vehicle to the passenger .
As for your last line "but I fear that your logic is likely to confuse some"
what you meant to say is that not everyone will abide by the gospel according to yobarr
Would you like to supply a direct reference for that statement about driving with only one hand being illegal. I have not seen that in the NSW road rules. Please !
It has a link to nsw driver handbook , i couldn't be bother reading it to find what i already know .
here is one little snipped
1. Driving with one hand
Yep, its illegal to drive without both hands on the wheel at all times, with only a few exceptions. Youre allowed to take a hand off the wheel when indicating, using the wipers, or making some other appropriate adjustment, but thats it.
The NSW road users hand book says this explicitly, while other states are less clear about the rules. However, one handed driving is illegal under dangerous or inattentive driving laws in every state, and people are regularly fined for it.
-- Edited by bratboy on Saturday 18th of June 2022 06:00:40 AM
-- Edited by bratboy on Saturday 18th of June 2022 06:05:52 AM
dorian said
07:44 AM Jun 18, 2022
bratboy wrote:
Yep, its illegal to drive without both hands on the wheel at all times, with only a few exceptions. Youre allowed to take a hand off the wheel when indicating, using the wipers, or making some other appropriate adjustment, but thats it.
I couldn't find any mention of one handed driving ...
bratboy said
08:19 AM Jun 18, 2022
I give up , the fact that you people are out on the road towing **** scares the crap out of me .
dorian said
08:42 AM Jun 18, 2022
bratboy wrote:
I give up , the fact that you people are out on the road towing **** scares the crap out of me .
What do you mean by that?
I'm not disagreeing that one-handed driving is bad practice. I'm just pointing out that I can find no mention of this bad practice in the NSW handbook.
DMaxer said
09:58 AM Jun 18, 2022
The Australian Road Rules and the State derivatives are really only model laws and used as a framework for the various State Governments to enact their own legislation.
The NSW Drivers Handbook is not legislation but merely a guide. No one is convicted for breaching the handbook, it has to be a specific section of an act or regulation.
Driving with one hand is not against the law. The offence that would need to be made out would be inattentive or negligent driving with the requirement being the prosecution needing to prove that the driver did not have proper control of the vehicle as the element of the charge, not that he was merely driving with one hand.
There are people with the use of only one arm who are licenced to drive motor vehicles.
peter67 said
10:03 AM Jun 18, 2022
Bratboy I'd cheerfully drive onehanded if I saw you on the road so I could engage in a prolonged session of finger signalling to you.
KevinJ said
10:06 AM Jun 18, 2022
It's interesting that you need to drive a car with both hands on the wheel whereas in an aircraft (at least light aircraft) you are told explicitly NOT to use both hands on the control yoke. It's also interesting that in NSW you need to get 120 hours of driving with an instructor and pass a driving test before you can go solo but in an aircraft you can go solo after about 10 hours with an instructor and a very small test. Go figure.
Dick0 said
10:17 AM Jun 18, 2022
People wonder about rollovers.
Last month I was driving on a major Victorian country freeway at 112km cruise (not towing) and a rig, ute and tandem axle van, passed me at an estimated 115km speed. Go figure that stupidity and wonder why there are rollovers.
Long Weekend said
10:17 AM Jun 18, 2022
Wow - once again the topic has veered away from the original; that is - accelerating to restore stability.
Referring to my post yesterday, it might seem that I was cool, calm and totally in control, but I assure everyone it scared the crap out of me! I should have pulled over off the road then but it was two way with nowhere safe at that point. However, it took about fifteen minutes before I managed to calm down.
I wrote in my log book "Just as well my wife didn't know what had happened or she would have panicked."
Dash cam footage is often posted on line. Those clearly show that once the third swing starts it is all over - the fourth swing then administers the 'coup de grace.'
Murray
Jaahn said
10:44 AM Jun 18, 2022
dorian wrote:
bratboy wrote:
I give up , the fact that you people are out on the road towing **** scares the crap out of me .
What do you mean by that?
I'm not disagreeing that one-handed driving is bad practice. I'm just pointing out that I can find no mention of this bad practice in the NSW handbook.
Hi
I also do not condone silly one handed driving, drinking coffee, eating a burger etc, but i do not believe that the NSW 'book' specifically says it is not legal. It is always the drivers responsibility to drive in a safe manner considering the circumstances. Indeed I have a current book which i use when supervising a couple of mostly mature learners, for instant clarification of rules and procedures. I know it well.
I always get the person to adjust the seating and get sitting in a good position firstly and talk about a safe way to drive and advise them as we go. But I do not scare them into it by using non existing rules. Common sense and pointing out the best way to operate a car is usually enough for most people when learning. Possibly other mature age people could do with a few pointers.
I would point out, as Yobarr has said driving a truck or a bus often requires a hand used for some other purpose regularly. Cars are setup to make some necessary operations usable from the wheel but it was not always so. Driving is a multi tasking job and people must learn that early or they never do and then they are not as safe drivers as they should be.
As Dmax said "There are people with the use of only one arm who are licenced to drive motor vehicles." also people with other disabiities that can be excellent safe drivers.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 18th of June 2022 10:49:56 AM
Mike Harding said
11:38 AM Jun 18, 2022
Jaahn wrote:
I also do not condone silly one handed driving, drinking coffee, eating a burger etc
I think my best was; eating a burger, holding a microphone and signalling to change lanes on the freeway whilst steering with my knee :)
86GTS said
11:52 AM Jun 18, 2022
My wife who worked at a special needs school, retired 2 years after me.
To ''fill in'' the 2 years waiting for her to retire I thought that I would do something constructive with my time so I became a crossing supervisor on a busy road outside a private school.
I saw so many ridiculous situations with drivers that I lost count.
One of the worst that I saw was a mother driving a large Mercedes-Benz SUV with 2 small kids in the back.
She almost killed me as she sped through the crossing even though I was standing mid-road holding a STOP sign.
She was eating a bowl of cereal, talking on a mobile phone & driving at the same time with no seat belt on .
yobarr said
12:14 PM Jun 18, 2022
peter67 wrote:
Bratboy I'd cheerfully drive onehanded if I saw you on the road so I could engage in a prolonged session of finger signalling to you.
Love it! But I have doubts that your finger signalling would even be understood, given the apparent level of comprehension displayed. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 18th of June 2022 01:03:35 PM
yobarr said
12:28 PM Jun 18, 2022
bratboy wrote:
yobarr wrote:
I suggest you go back and do a refresher course because it is illegal to drive with only one hand on the wheel UNLESS changing gears , look it up . as for mum hitting the brake controller , the scenario was that things had gone pear shaped and the van was swaying in that situation locking up the van brakes could TRIP the van and make things worse that's why the driver needs to have control of that as well so he can apply and release as required . The uncle having a heart attack is not the same as someone assigning some of the safe operation of said vehicle to the passenger .
As for your last line "but I fear that your logic is likely to confuse some"
what you meant to say is that not everyone will abide by the gospel according to yobarr
Could I take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to post this great advice, and the spirit in which it was delivered? Do you really think that I didn't already know this stuff? To give you something to consider, perhaps I should again say that one of the biggest causes of caravans overturning is axle steer. After the initial sway every subsequent sway is greater than the one previous, primarily because of axle steer. After 3 such sways, it's all over Red Rover, and you're gunna spill your beer! All axle types, except possibly one, are prone to axle steer, with the type in the photo I've included one of the worst. Again, it's simple physics at work. Cheers
P.S You may like to take note of the comment below, by Alex.
P.P.S There is no "Gospel according to Yobarr", just common sense that is perhaps foreign to some?
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 18th of June 2022 12:35:00 PM
I also do not condone silly one handed driving, drinking coffee, eating a burger etc
I think my best was; eating a burger, holding a microphone and signalling to change lanes on the freeway whilst steering with my knee :)
Would that perhaps have been acceptable if you had had BOTH knee controlling the steering wheel? Cheers
yobarr said
12:49 PM Jun 18, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
What/when/how and why is axle steer?
Hi Mike. Previously I have explained this in some detail, but you may well have missed it, perhaps during your self-enforced absence? However,if you seriously are interested to learn, I will try later to again post about it. In the interim, you may like to access RV books online, written by Collyn Rivers, as I'm sure it'll be covered there, but I will try later to post something that may be of benefit. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 18th of June 2022 07:13:47 PM
The appliction of the brakes on my van is triggered by the activation of the tow vehicle brake lights. I get nearly 8mm of travel of the brake pedal before any discernable braking of the vehicle is felt or noticed. The dirt roads on the back way from Beaudesert to Stanthorpe are mostly decomposed granite surfaced and are very very very slipery. I have tested my set up several times by turnng the trailer bias up then lightly depressing the brake pedal so that the van wheels lock and skid but the tow vehicle's wheel are not retarded. At first hint of trailer sway, I can, and do, apply trailer brakes only to pull the van back into line.
My take on the advice to accelerate is a theoritical opinion that doing so will pull a swaying van back into line. My braking setup does that without likely making a bad situation worse. I did ask a proponent of the accelerate advice just how fast his Prado could accelerate his 3000Kg van when he was already travelling at 100KPH. Of course, he immediately understood the silliness of his preplaning in the event of experincing trailer sway on the open road.
Hitting the road said
03:43 PM Jun 18, 2022
From what I am reading here, most drivers have some knowledge of what to do if things start to go pear shaped. But, and the "BUT" is, would the average 75 year old driver react quickly enough and think quickly enough to reach down and push the manual brake actuator for the electric brakes in the few seconds he / she has to react?
In most cases the answer would be no. They would likely be too busy gripping the steering wheel and wrestling the tug not really thinking about slowing the van. From what I have seen these cases of sway begin when least expected catching the driver out.
These threads are good in that many opinions are put forward, some good, some not so good. The bottom line is when a sway begins the van is in effect trying to overtake the tug. The logical reaction is to slow the van down and that is done by braking the van, not the tug.
A bit of van sway isn't anything to get nervous or concerned about. I think that in some cases too control is lost when the driver over reacts to a bit of sway and causes the sway to escalate to an out of control situation.
I have experienced caravan sway from time to time, but I will usually let the van do it's thing rather than try to fight it. It will correct itself with a steady hand on the wheel and constant throttle.
I recall many years ago when a sales rep driving a top heavy Dodge truck fitted with a huge van body in country Victoria, when heading in to a corner the best way was to have the van start to lean, even flicking the wheel a bit as you went in to the corner to set up the lean, and then allow it to go around the bend with the lean, if you tried to fight it the result would not have been pretty.
As yobarr above mentioned when pulling three trailers, the back trailer can swing quite wildly at times on the crappy Queens land roads due to undulations and potholes...that rear trailer is hanging off five free moving pivot points, best to just ignore it and keep peddling, steady steering wheel and constant throttle...same with towing anything really...unless there is plainly a situation developing, just power on.
Jaahn said
04:17 PM Jun 18, 2022
yobarr wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
What/when/how and why is axle steer?
Hi Mike. Previously I have explained this in some detail, but you may well have missed it, perhaps during your self-enforced absence? However,if you seriously are interested to learn, I will try later to again post about it. In the interim, you may like to access RV books online, written by Collyn Rivers, as I'm sure it'll be covered there, but I will try later to post something that may be of benefit. Cheers
If the van(or car) wheels tend to steer in any direction that is not straight ahead when the suspension moves up and down, it is generally described as bump axle steer. All vehicle manufacturers try to minimise this effect. When you build a 'hot rod' you need to demonstrate the bump steer on the wheels under suspension movement.
When a vehicle leans to one side, due to cornering forces or wind gust or road undulations, one side rises but the other side droops. Commonly one side steers out(toe out) and the other side points the same way(toe in actually) so the trailer will not track well. But during sway the same bad tracking occurs each change of direction, steering one way, then the other, then back, etc each sway makes the axle steer and sway worse. So there is a feed back loop that will end very badly if not controlled. Beam axles with poorly positioned spring mountings are a known cause of this. Like 'all' caravans I have ever seen with cheap leaf springs designs. Should be denied initial registration IMHO.
But the same applies to a lot of poorly designed independent suspensions too. They could be better but generally are not. The designers could read a bit about suspension design and axle steer and in half an hour would be able to design a better layout. BUT they choose to paint them bright colours and put 8 bright yellow shocks on and such like BS, because that is what sells to the punters
Jaahn
A description of how it might be measured and minimised in one modified car application.
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 18th of June 2022 04:27:43 PM
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 18th of June 2022 04:31:10 PM
yobarr said
05:25 PM Jun 18, 2022
Jaahn wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
What/when/how and why is axle steer?
Hi Mike. Previously I have explained this in some detail, but you may well have missed it, perhaps during your self-enforced absence? However,if you seriously are interested to learn, I will try later to again post about it. In the interim, you may like to access RV books online, written by Collyn Rivers, as I'm sure it'll be covered there, but I will try later to post something that may be of benefit. Cheers
If the van(or car) wheels tend to steer in any direction that is not straight ahead when the suspension moves up and down, it is generally described as bump axle steer. All vehicle manufacturers try to minimise this effect. When you build a 'hot rod' you need to demonstrate the bump steer on the wheels under suspension movement.
When a vehicle leans to one side, due to cornering forces, the wheels might point one way on one side but the opposite on the other. BUT commonly one side steers out(toe out) and the other the same way(toe in) so the trailer will not track well. But during sway the same bad tracking occures each change of direction, steering out, then in, then out, then in etc each sway makes the axle steering and sway worse. So there is a feed back loop that will end very badly. Beam axles with poorly positioned spring mountings are a known cause of this. Like 'all' caravans I have ever seen with leaf springs. Should be denied initial registration IMHO.
But the same applies to a lot of poorly designed independent suspensions too. They could be better but generally are not. The designers could read a bit about suspension design and axle steer and in half an hour would be able to design a better layout. BUT they choose to paint them bright colours and put 8 bright yellow shocks on and such like BS, because that is what sells to the punters
Jaahn
A description of how it might be minimised in one modified car application.
Thanks, Jaahn, for posting this as it saves me a bit of work! However, if Mike or anybody else doesn't understand I am happy to draw some pretty pictures to help. Briefly, imagine a straight line from the towball to the wheels on an axle. Both lines should be the same length, but when the van sways that distance on one side will increase as the chassis gets closer to the axle when the spring compresses through an arc. ALL common spring types compress through an arc, even coils, which are often the worst type to have. The opposite occurs on the other side of the van so we have one wheel nearer the towball and one wheel further away. This means that the axle is no longer at 90 degrees to the chassis, so the van will veer off course accordingly. That spring then bottoms out, so the van sways the other way, causing the axle to again change direction, with the van veering off in the other direction, but more severely this time. Every subsequent sway causes a bigger counter-sway so that after about 3 sways it's all over, Red Rover. Cheers
P.S Drew these rough sketches in an attempt to help others understand how axle steer works. Apologies if they're too difficult to understand, but I'm not much of a draughtsman. Hopefully most will get the idea. Happy to answer any questions.
i towed caravans for almost 50 years with many falcons and never in all those years did i have the van going crazy behind my cars ...so i think today people are to blame for the accidents and van rollovers its inatention and speed incorect loading that is the problems. IMO...or im blessed to not have ever had a problem ......
yobarr said
06:59 PM Jun 18, 2022
tea spoon wrote:
i towed caravans for almost 50 years with many falcons and never in all those years did i have the van going crazy behind my cars ...so i think today people are to blame for the accidents and van rollovers its inatention and speed incorect loading that is the problems. IMO...or im blessed to not have ever had a problem ......
Good points there Cliff, but perhaps the vans were a bit smaller and lighter back then, the family didn't have to carry the compulsory gas barbecue, no bikes on the rear bumper, no tinny jammed on the roof, no big water tanks, no grey water tank etc. Incorrect loading is a major cause of instability, and lack of attention doesn't help, but maybe speed is the main problem? Waaaay back the roads were such that speeds were lower, and I don't remember the "Gotta get there yesterday" attitude so prevalent these days. Life in general was more leisurely, and I was quite content to tootle along at 50mph in the old Valiant with its bum on the ground and headlights skyward while blissfully towing the 26' van! If we didn't get there today, always there was tomorrow! Cheers
I too mounted mine in the centre, and found that extemely useful on one occasion. I was in the passenger seat and my partner was a towing beginner. She swerved too quickly to avoid a pothole, causing a swing to start. I reached forwards and hit that button in a fraction of a second, increasing the braking sensitivity at the same time. This stopped the swing in it's tracks before it picked up momentum on the return swing. If the button had been out of reach for the passenger, it may well have been a very different story. I have no problem with telling the passenger to hit it if a swing starts although I would probably get there first. Never had to so far.
Also, I recommend using that control for braking occasionally to appreciate how it works.
As for accelerating, I agree it is bad advice.
Not a very well thought-out response, I reckon. Although I probably wouldn't mount a controller in the middle of the dash, I can think of no reason that it shouldn't be there? Consider the driver having a 'medical episode' where he is unable to properly control the car, at least Mum can jam the van brakes on! Many people drink coffee or eat sandwiches etc whilst driving, so there are no hands spare to activate the van brakes in an emergency, assuming one hand on the steering wheel. And I wonder how Mum's intervention could be "more dangerous than the original sway" as you suggest. How would the "licencing officer" even know that it was Mum who activated the brakes? For fear of confusing you, I will ask no more questions. Cheers
My uncle had a heart attack whilst driving and my aunt was able to pull the hand brake on to stop the vehicle so I see no difference for the passenger to be able to stop the rig with the van brake given some modern hand brakes are on the floor now.
"Illegal to drive with one hand while eating or drinking" you say. There wouldn't be a man or woman who could honestly say they keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times. Personally, I very rarely have both hand on the steering wheel at once, unless I'm turning very sharp corners of manoeuvring the trailers. Usually one hand is on or near the gear lever if I'm starting off, climbing or descending hills, or slowing down, but once I'm under way one arm goes onto the driver's door window, or onto the esky, depending on how I feel. Because we're essentially a caravanners' forum it is fair to expect that we're playing tourists if we're towing the van, so I can't see why Mum would be "sitting in the passengers seat with her knitting in her lap half asleep" . Surely if we're tourists Mum would be taking in the sights? And if Mum "slams the brakes on at say 90kmh" as you suggest, the van would simply pull the car up in a straight line. Cheers
Thanks Kevin, for your support, but I fear that your logic is likely to confuse some? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 17th of June 2022 09:59:21 PM
I suggest you go back and do a refresher course because it is illegal to drive with only one hand on the wheel UNLESS changing gears , look it up . as for mum hitting the brake controller , the scenario was that things had gone pear shaped and the van was swaying in that situation locking up the van brakes could TRIP the van and make things worse that's why the driver needs to have control of that as well so he can apply and release as required . The uncle having a heart attack is not the same as someone assigning some of the safe operation of said vehicle to the passenger .
As for your last line "but I fear that your logic is likely to confuse some"
what you meant to say is that not everyone will abide by the gospel according to yobarr
-- Edited by bratboy on Friday 17th of June 2022 10:14:23 PM
first thing to pop up .
www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/is-it-illegal-to-drive-one-handed-68418
or this it definitely references nsw .
https://www.goget.com.au/blog/road-rules-youre-probably-breaking/
It has a link to nsw driver handbook , i couldn't be bother reading it to find what i already know .
here is one little snipped
1. Driving with one hand
Yep, its illegal to drive without both hands on the wheel at all times, with only a few exceptions. Youre allowed to take a hand off the wheel when indicating, using the wipers, or making some other appropriate adjustment, but thats it.
The NSW road users hand book says this explicitly, while other states are less clear about the rules. However, one handed driving is illegal under dangerous or inattentive driving laws in every state, and people are regularly fined for it.
-- Edited by bratboy on Saturday 18th of June 2022 06:00:40 AM
-- Edited by bratboy on Saturday 18th of June 2022 06:05:52 AM
I couldn't find any mention of one handed driving ...
What do you mean by that?
I'm not disagreeing that one-handed driving is bad practice. I'm just pointing out that I can find no mention of this bad practice in the NSW handbook.
The Australian Road Rules and the State derivatives are really only model laws and used as a framework for the various State Governments to enact their own legislation.
The NSW Drivers Handbook is not legislation but merely a guide. No one is convicted for breaching the handbook, it has to be a specific section of an act or regulation.
Driving with one hand is not against the law. The offence that would need to be made out would be inattentive or negligent driving with the requirement being the prosecution needing to prove that the driver did not have proper control of the vehicle as the element of the charge, not that he was merely driving with one hand.
There are people with the use of only one arm who are licenced to drive motor vehicles.
It's interesting that you need to drive a car with both hands on the wheel whereas in an aircraft (at least light aircraft) you are told explicitly NOT to use both hands on the control yoke. It's also interesting that in NSW you need to get 120 hours of driving with an instructor and pass a driving test before you can go solo but in an aircraft you can go solo after about 10 hours with an instructor and a very small test. Go figure.
People wonder about rollovers.
Last month I was driving on a major Victorian country freeway at 112km cruise (not towing) and a rig, ute and tandem axle van, passed me at an estimated 115km speed. Go figure that stupidity and wonder why there are rollovers.
Referring to my post yesterday, it might seem that I was cool, calm and totally in control, but I assure everyone it scared the crap out of me! I should have pulled over off the road then but it was two way with nowhere safe at that point. However, it took about fifteen minutes before I managed to calm down.
I wrote in my log book "Just as well my wife didn't know what had happened or she would have panicked."
Dash cam footage is often posted on line. Those clearly show that once the third swing starts it is all over - the fourth swing then administers the 'coup de grace.'
Murray
Hi
I also do not condone silly one handed driving, drinking coffee, eating a burger etc, but i do not believe that the NSW 'book' specifically says it is not legal. It is always the drivers responsibility to drive in a safe manner considering the circumstances. Indeed I have a current book which i use when supervising a couple of mostly mature learners, for instant clarification of rules and procedures. I know it well.
I always get the person to adjust the seating and get sitting in a good position firstly and talk about a safe way to drive and advise them as we go. But I do not scare them into it by using non existing rules. Common sense and pointing out the best way to operate a car is usually enough for most people when learning. Possibly other mature age people could do with a few pointers.
I would point out, as Yobarr has said driving a truck or a bus often requires a hand used for some other purpose regularly. Cars are setup to make some necessary operations usable from the wheel but it was not always so. Driving is a multi tasking job and people must learn that early or they never do
and then they are not as safe drivers as they should be.
As Dmax said "There are people with the use of only one arm who are licenced to drive motor vehicles." also people with other disabiities that can be excellent safe drivers.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 18th of June 2022 10:49:56 AM
I think my best was; eating a burger, holding a microphone and signalling to change lanes on the freeway whilst steering with my knee :)
To ''fill in'' the 2 years waiting for her to retire I thought that I would do something constructive with my time so I became a crossing supervisor on a busy road outside a private school.
I saw so many ridiculous situations with drivers that I lost count.
One of the worst that I saw was a mother driving a large Mercedes-Benz SUV with 2 small kids in the back.
She almost killed me as she sped through the crossing even though I was standing mid-road holding a STOP sign.
She was eating a bowl of cereal, talking on a mobile phone & driving at the same time with no seat belt on .
Love it! But I have doubts that your finger signalling would even be understood, given the apparent level of comprehension displayed. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 18th of June 2022 01:03:35 PM
Could I take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to post this great advice, and the spirit in which it was delivered? Do you really think that I didn't already know this stuff? To give you something to consider, perhaps I should again say that one of the biggest causes of caravans overturning is axle steer. After the initial sway every subsequent sway is greater than the one previous, primarily because of axle steer. After 3 such sways, it's all over Red Rover, and you're gunna spill your beer! All axle types, except possibly one, are prone to axle steer, with the type in the photo I've included one of the worst. Again, it's simple physics at work. Cheers
P.S You may like to take note of the comment below, by Alex.
P.P.S There is no "Gospel according to Yobarr", just common sense that is perhaps foreign to some?
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 18th of June 2022 12:35:00 PM
What/when/how and why is axle steer?
Would that perhaps have been acceptable if you had had BOTH knee controlling the steering wheel? Cheers
Hi Mike. Previously I have explained this in some detail, but you may well have missed it, perhaps during your self-enforced absence? However,if you seriously are interested to learn, I will try later to again post about it. In the interim, you may like to access RV books online, written by Collyn Rivers, as I'm sure it'll be covered there, but I will try later to post something that may be of benefit. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 18th of June 2022 07:13:47 PM
My take on the advice to accelerate is a theoritical opinion that doing so will pull a swaying van back into line. My braking setup does that without likely making a bad situation worse. I did ask a proponent of the accelerate advice just how fast his Prado could accelerate his 3000Kg van when he was already travelling at 100KPH. Of course, he immediately understood the silliness of his preplaning in the event of experincing trailer sway on the open road.
In most cases the answer would be no. They would likely be too busy gripping the steering wheel and wrestling the tug not really thinking about slowing the van. From what I have seen these cases of sway begin when least expected catching the driver out.
These threads are good in that many opinions are put forward, some good, some not so good. The bottom line is when a sway begins the van is in effect trying to overtake the tug. The logical reaction is to slow the van down and that is done by braking the van, not the tug.
A bit of van sway isn't anything to get nervous or concerned about. I think that in some cases too control is lost when the driver over reacts to a bit of sway and causes the sway to escalate to an out of control situation.
I have experienced caravan sway from time to time, but I will usually let the van do it's thing rather than try to fight it. It will correct itself with a steady hand on the wheel and constant throttle.
I recall many years ago when a sales rep driving a top heavy Dodge truck fitted with a huge van body in country Victoria, when heading in to a corner the best way was to have the van start to lean, even flicking the wheel a bit as you went in to the corner to set up the lean, and then allow it to go around the bend with the lean, if you tried to fight it the result would not have been pretty.
As yobarr above mentioned when pulling three trailers, the back trailer can swing quite wildly at times on the crappy Queens land roads due to undulations and potholes...that rear trailer is hanging off five free moving pivot points, best to just ignore it and keep peddling, steady steering wheel and constant throttle...same with towing anything really...unless there is plainly a situation developing, just power on.
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 18th of June 2022 04:27:43 PM
-- Edited by Jaahn on Saturday 18th of June 2022 04:31:10 PM
Thanks, Jaahn, for posting this as it saves me a bit of work! However, if Mike or anybody else doesn't understand I am happy to draw some pretty pictures to help. Briefly, imagine a straight line from the towball to the wheels on an axle. Both lines should be the same length, but when the van sways that distance on one side will increase as the chassis gets closer to the axle when the spring compresses through an arc. ALL common spring types compress through an arc, even coils, which are often the worst type to have. The opposite occurs on the other side of the van so we have one wheel nearer the towball and one wheel further away. This means that the axle is no longer at 90 degrees to the chassis, so the van will veer off course accordingly. That spring then bottoms out, so the van sways the other way, causing the axle to again change direction, with the van veering off in the other direction, but more severely this time. Every subsequent sway causes a bigger counter-sway so that after about 3 sways it's all over, Red Rover. Cheers
P.S Drew these rough sketches in an attempt to help others understand how axle steer works. Apologies if they're too difficult to understand, but I'm not much of a draughtsman. Hopefully most will get the idea. Happy to answer any questions.
i towed caravans for almost 50 years with many falcons and never in all those years did i have the van going crazy behind my cars ...so i think today people are to blame for the accidents and van rollovers its inatention and speed incorect loading that is the problems. IMO...or im blessed to not have ever had a problem ......
Good points there Cliff, but perhaps the vans were a bit smaller and lighter back then, the family didn't have to carry the compulsory gas barbecue, no bikes on the rear bumper, no tinny jammed on the roof, no big water tanks, no grey water tank etc. Incorrect loading is a major cause of instability, and lack of attention doesn't help, but maybe speed is the main problem? Waaaay back the roads were such that speeds were lower, and I don't remember the "Gotta get there yesterday" attitude so prevalent these days. Life in general was more leisurely, and I was quite content to tootle along at 50mph in the old Valiant with its bum on the ground and headlights skyward while blissfully towing the 26' van! If we didn't get there today, always there was tomorrow! Cheers