I agree with Possum. I have been lucky enough in my previous life to have done many Advanced Driver Training courses. Both in my car and heavy vehicles. Lucky again only about 4 years ago, offered to do a repeat one in the Collie.
Even now I find I drive as taught by the professional trainers. It's just automatic.
I don't need to be told by a forum Xspurt how to hold a steering wheel either. In fact I find it a little insulting people of many years experience driving, being told as well.
Oh well!
86GTS said
10:12 AM Dec 23, 2022
Dougwe wrote:
I agree with Possum. I have been lucky enough in my previous life to have done many Advanced Driver Training courses. Both in my car and heavy vehicles. Lucky again only about 4 years ago, offered to do a repeat one in the Collie.
Even now I find I drive as taught by the professional trainers. It's just automatic.
I don't need to be told by a forum Xspurt how to hold a steering wheel either. In fact I find it a little insulting people of many years experience driving, being told as well.
Oh well!
I'm with you Dougwe. I'd find it insulting if some self proclaimed expert tried to tell me how to ride a motorcycle.seeing as I've done four HART (Honda Australia Rider Training) courses.
Ivan 01 said
01:51 PM Dec 23, 2022
I was taught 9 to 3 from an advanced driving course.
The knob comment was a little humour. Please dont have your hand on any knob while steering.> Yobarr. From my observations most truckies steer with the right arm and have the left ready for changing gears if required, and if in a RHD vehicle.
Hold it (the wheel) however you like. There was a bloke on one of those reality highway patrol tv shows, steering a car with a pair of vice grips clamped to the steering column shaft onto the spline where the wheel normally fits.
The old rule of 10 to 2 was difficult at times.
Does anyone ever remember the old XK Falcons with a 5 and 3/4 turns lock to lock or even the old *racing* Vanguard was pretty indirect as well.
It certainly paid you to have the car in the correct gear before you started a turning manoeuvre.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Friday 23rd of December 2022 01:57:20 PM
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Friday 23rd of December 2022 01:58:11 PM
Aus-Kiwi said
05:48 PM Dec 23, 2022
Some of those cars had so much slack in steering too !! Could swing steering wheel 1/3 of a turn and straight down the road ! So much play in them !! I use the palm of my hand to spin wheel. Like the old handle ( spinner ) on wheel. When parking or boat ramps etc
Joda said
03:12 PM Dec 24, 2022
On my motorbike I always use the 9 & 3 position,
Whenarewethere said
05:17 PM Dec 24, 2022
No hands required & no legal requirement to wear a helmet on a unicycle.
yobarr said
03:22 PM Dec 25, 2022
Greg 1 wrote:
As someone who has been a driving instructor, taught advanced driving and raced cars as a hobby including taking instruction from some very experienced ex touring car drivers, you never ever drive with your hands at 20 to 4. 10 to 2 or 9 and 3 are the two correct positions to maintain proper control of the car. Anyone teaching otherwise isn't a drivers fundamental. In a race car the 9 and 3 position is preferred or just slightly above. It is frowned upon by good racing driver instructors to drive one handed and very few do. Change gear, hand back on wheel until next gear change. At high corner speeds and quick racks you need both hands on the wheel to muscle the car around the corner. Whilst most people will never drive at the speeds reached on a race track, the fundamental things that make for good car control on the track, translate straight across to driving our road cars. I would like to see more people take the opportunity to take some advanced instruction on a race track because I believe it makes for better drivers, both in skill and attitude.
Great post Greg! Lots of logic, common sense and indisputable facts displayed here, gathered, no doubt, over your years of involvement in motor racing and advanced driving. When I started this thread my intention was merely to draw attention to what I see as a concerning trend for drivers to hold the steering wheel at the 20 to 4 position, but I was most careful to not offer any advice! Seems that some members still took my post as a challenge to their preferred manner of "driving". Holding a driver's licence does not necessarily make you a driver.
At the 20 to 4 position the driver has absolutely NO control of the car, and the hands are being held in an unnatural position. Have you ever seen anybody sitting with their hands in the palms-up position that holding the steering wheel at 20 to 4 requires?
As far as Advanced Driving courses go, it doesn't matter how many courses you complete, if you can't drive, you can't drive. Whilst I have completed such a course, most "feel" for the car comes, as well-respected racing driver Jim Richards says, "through the seat of your pants" and can never be taught.
Whilst I quickly recognised that Ivan's introduction of knobs into the conversation was a light-hearted attempt to add a little humour to the thread I chose not to respond, as I had no wish to "steal his thunder" by intruding into an area in which Ivan seems to have great knowledge. Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 25th of December 2022 05:47:21 PM
slowboat said
01:42 AM Dec 26, 2022
Wifey learnt to drive in the old bedford farm truck (yeah about 17 turns lock to lock),
So in the Audi Q7 now when turning any bend or corner same technique hand over fist 2 hands one side of the wheel.
going around a 270° on ramp one day she says " I never seem to get this one right " I suggested she hold the wheel at 9 & 3. Sure enough next time around remembering the 9 & 3, She was amazed at how easy it was to drive a perfect line around the 270 ramp!
As someone who has been a driving instructor, taught advanced driving and raced cars as a hobby including taking instruction from some very experienced ex touring car drivers, you never ever drive with your hands at 20 to 4. 10 to 2 or 9 and 3 are the two correct positions to maintain proper control of the car. Anyone teaching otherwise isn't a drivers fundamental. In a race car the 9 and 3 position is preferred or just slightly above. It is frowned upon by good racing driver instructors to drive one handed and very few do. Change gear, hand back on wheel until next gear change. At high corner speeds and quick racks you need both hands on the wheel to muscle the car around the corner. Whilst most people will never drive at the speeds reached on a race track, the fundamental things that make for good car control on the track, translate straight across to driving our road cars. I would like to see more people take the opportunity to take some advanced instruction on a race track because I believe it makes for better drivers, both in skill and attitude.
Great post Greg! Lots of logic, common sense and indisputable facts displayed here, gathered, no doubt, over your years of involvement in motor racing and advanced driving. When I started this thread my intention was merely to draw attention to what I see as a concerning trend for drivers to hold the steering wheel at the 20 to 4 position, but I was most careful to not offer any advice! Seems that some members still took my post as a challenge to their preferred manner of "driving". Holding a driver's licence does not necessarily make you a driver.
At the 20 to 4 position the driver has absolutely NO control of the car, and the hands are being held in an unnatural position. Have you ever seen anybody sitting with their hands in the palms-up position that holding the steering wheel at 20 to 4 requires?
As far as Advanced Driving courses go, it doesn't matter how many courses you complete, if you can't drive, you can't drive. Whilst I have completed such a course, most "feel" for the car comes, as well-respected racing driver Jim Richards says, "through the seat of your pants" and can never be taught.
Whilst I quickly recognised that Ivan's introduction of knobs into the conversation was a light-hearted attempt to add a little humour to the thread I chose not to respond, as I had no wish to "steal his thunder" by intruding into an area in which Ivan seems to have great knowledge. Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 25th of December 2022 05:47:21 PM
At last Yobarr, a little humour and satire into your post. Well done mate.
if we go back a long way and read your comments it appears to many that you are a very good owner operator of a knob.
Have a Safe and Happy New Year.
watsea said
01:40 PM Dec 26, 2022
yobarr wrote:
As far as Advanced Driving courses go, it doesn't matter how many courses you complete, if you can't drive, you can't drive. Whilst I have completed such a course, most "feel" for the car comes, as well-respected racing driver Jim Richards says, "through the seat of your pants" and can never be taught.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 25th of December 2022 05:47:21 PM
I wonder if anyone remembers Peter Wherrett. On one of his shows, he tried to find and show where drivers got their most sensation for driving control.
He wore a helmet with a visor that opened and closed at a regular frequency so he only had vision for about half of the time. Then driver's seat was moved randomly (sideways, back and forward, maybe rotational) by a motorised controller. He found and demonstrated that he could control his car less when the seat was moved or moving ie better control feeling through the seat of the pants. The brain could cope with the intermittent vision disruptions.
As for hand positions, I normanly drive at 10 to 2, or closer to 9 to 3. The steering wheel spokes hinder going full 9 to 3. I had not heard of 20 to 4 until reading this thread. I had a short try out. Quite uncomfortable for me and seemingly with lack of room to control the steering wheel. I realise decades of muscle training via my driving would also had an impact, but 20 to 4 is not for me.
Once with a work colleague (my boss), I was a bit concerned. He used his thumb and two fingers in the 6 o'clock position, one handed of course.
yobarr said
03:05 PM Dec 26, 2022
Ivan 01 wrote:
At last Yobarr, a little humour and satire into your post. Well done mate.
if we go back a long way and read your comments it appears to many that you are a very good owner operator of a knob.
Have a Safe and Happy New Year.
Perhaps you're right, Ivan? After all, what right do I have to dispute the assertions of an apparent expert in the field! Have a great day, and I wish you only the best for the New Year. Cheers
P.S Perhaps you could advise how you were able to determine that "it appears to many".
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 26th of December 2022 03:10:08 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 26th of December 2022 09:13:10 PM
yobarr said
07:36 PM Dec 26, 2022
watsea wrote:
yobarr wrote:
As far as Advanced Driving courses go, it doesn't matter how many courses you complete, if you can't drive, you can't drive. Whilst I have completed such a course, most "feel" for the car comes, as well-respected racing driver Jim Richards says, "through the seat of your pants" and can never be taught.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 25th of December 2022 05:47:21 PM
I wonder if anyone remembers Peter Wherrett. On one of his shows, he tried to find and show where drivers got their most sensation for driving control.
He wore a helmet with a visor that opened and closed at a regular frequency so he only had vision for about half of the time. Then driver's seat was moved randomly (sideways, back and forward, maybe rotational) by a motorised controller. He found and demonstrated that he could control his car less when the seat was moved or moving ie better control feeling through the seat of the pants. The brain could cope with the intermittent vision disruptions.
As for hand positions, I normanly drive at 10 to 2, or closer to 9 to 3. The steering wheel spokes hinder going full 9 to 3. I had not heard of 20 to 4 until reading this thread. I had a short try out. Quite uncomfortable for me and seemingly with lack of room to control the steering wheel. I realise decades of muscle training via my driving would also had an impact, but 20 to 4 is not for me.
Once with a work colleague (my boss), I was a bit concerned. He used his thumb and two fingers in the 6 o'clock position, one handed of course.
Interesting post, Ted! Great to see that Peter Wherrett agrees with the great Jim Richards, and what tgey both say is coincidentally exactly what I worked out for myself waaay back, late 60s and early 70s, when I used to absolutely love driving sideways on dirt roads, at well over 160kmh, with my mother sitting beside me!
And could I say that because driving a car with hands at 20 to 4 means that the driver has NO proper control of the car the practice should be actively discouraged, and result in a "fail" when sitting a test to gain a driver's licence.
The fact that driving schools teach this method is absolutely ridiculous, and the practice should be banned.
And we wonder why kids these days can't drive! Modern cars have 2 to 3 times more power than ours had, but the drivers are much less skilled, simply because they have been incorrectly taught, and have never been able to learn proper car control.
"Do gooders" have decided that anybody who drives a car sideways is a "Hoon", so it is difficult for kids to learn. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 27th of December 2022 08:49:53 AM
Well, it seems that maybe there was a tad too much rum in the Christmas pudding this year.
yobarr said
12:43 PM Dec 27, 2022
Try this with hands at 20 to 4, and see where you end up. Cheers
P.S Bottom picture is of Jim Richards! Anglia in a field dominated by Mini Cooper Ss. He also raced a Hillman Imp (true) He was aged 21 when this phot was taken. Cheers
About 10 years past, in Victoria, I was involved with an excellent volunteer programme which provided free "L plate" supervision for youngsters who did not have access to a car/driver in their home environment. We volunteers were, properly, required to do a fair bit of training and testing to ensure we were fit and proper people to be let loose with a 16 year old in a car (I must have slipped through the net :) ).
One day I was chatting with a senior government person running the programme and mentioned how I had been unable to find a publicly accessible skid pan for my sons to use when I was teaching them to drive as I consider the best way to learn things such as skid control is in a controlled and safe teaching environment rather than at 2.30am on the freeway at 100kph in a heavy rainstorm.
"Oh, no, no, no" was the reply, "we very much discourage such training as it only encourages people to do these things on the road." And I have heard this response from official sources since, indeed I even recall an article in the RACV magazine by the then head of the RACV espousing the same opinion.
Perhaps this is a strategy we should apply to airline pilots? ie. Don't teach them emergency aircraft control in case it leads them to be reckless?
Driving, just like tennis or darts, is a skill and it will be improved by practice, tuition and learning.
Driver skill levels in Australia are appalling and attitudes and approaches such as the above are part of the reason why.
yobarr said
03:07 PM Dec 27, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
About 10 years past, in Victoria, I was involved with an excellent volunteer programme which provided free "L plate" supervision for youngsters who did not have access to a car/driver in their home environment. We volunteers were, properly, required to do a fair bit of training and testing to ensure we were fit and proper people to be let loose with a 16 year old in a car (I must have slipped through the net :) ).
One day I was chatting with a senior government person running the programme and mentioned how I had been unable to find a publicly accessible skid pan for my sons to use when I was teaching them to drive as I consider the best way to learn things such as skid control is in a controlled and safe teaching environment rather than at 2.30am on the freeway at 100kph in a heavy rainstorm.
"Oh, no, no, no" was the reply, "we very much discourage such traing " as it only encourages people to do these things on the road." And I have heard this response from official sources since, indeed I even recall an article in the RACV magazine by the then head of the RACV espousing the same opinion.
Perhaps this is a strategy we should apply to airline pilots? ie. Don't teach them emergency aircraft control in case it leads them to be reckless?
Driving, just like tennis or darts, is a skill and it will be improved by practice, tuition and learning.
Driver skill levels in Australia are appalling and attitudes and approaches such as the above are part of the reason why.
Hi Mike. Once again you have posted what I believe is common sense, but your views sadly are not shared by the two individuals I've highlighted above.
Again we have such people in these jobs simply because they're too stupid to get a real job.
It is apparent that common sense is becoming increasingly uncommon.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 27th of December 2022 09:56:06 PM
I have heard that response from the police in fact, that we shouldn't train young drivers car control because we are training young hoons.
My car club ran a motorkhana as a come and try day for youth.
Motorkhanas are excellent ways to teach young people car control as they are done at relatively low speeds and involve a lot of steering inputs around an obstacle course, plus done in a controlled environment.
We closed off a couple of back streets in my local village to run this. Had great support from the local shire and others, but the local police Sargent was not on board and I had a very long discussion to convince him to issue us with the permit to close off the roads. Event was run under Motorsport Australia's auspices who push road safety heavily.
The event was well supported and ran without a hitch, and a few young people came to the realisation that there were proper venues available to enable them to try out their skills without doing it on the roads. Plus us old revheads got to meet some very nice young people who hopefully took something away with them that just might save them on the roads.
StewG said
10:43 AM Dec 29, 2022
Being old school, I learnt the 10:2 steering wheel position. My current vehicle encourages 9:3 due to the positioning of the various stalks and controls. More recently in a truck driving course, I was taught the shuffling technique which I have not fully adopted - old habits get in the way. Keeping thumbs outside the rim is a good precaution, but possibly not so vital with some vehicles where the power steering isolates "potholes" from a violent steering wheel reaction. Keeping two hands on the wheel at all times is easy with auto transmission and all those wheel mounted stalks and controls.
Craig1 said
11:23 AM Dec 29, 2022
Save your thumbs and use top of knees
peter67 said
11:24 AM Dec 29, 2022
Being old school I was always worried about damaging my thumbs and fingers when hitting large potholes unaided by power steering. So I jam my knees under the steering wheel which leaves my hands free for rolling cigarettes and drinking beer.
Wannabe nomad said
05:49 PM Dec 29, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
About 10 years past, in Victoria, I was involved with an excellent volunteer programme which provided free "L plate" supervision for youngsters who did not have access to a car/driver in their home environment. We volunteers were, properly, required to do a fair bit of training and testing to ensure we were fit and proper people to be let loose with a 16 year old in a car (I must have slipped through the net :) ).
One day I was chatting with a senior government person running the programme and mentioned how I had been unable to find a publicly accessible skid pan for my sons to use when I was teaching them to drive as I consider the best way to learn things such as skid control is in a controlled and safe teaching environment rather than at 2.30am on the freeway at 100kph in a heavy rainstorm.
"Oh, no, no, no" was the reply, "we very much discourage such training as it only encourages people to do these things on the road." And I have heard this response from official sources since, indeed I even recall an article in the RACV magazine by the then head of the RACV espousing the same opinion.
Perhaps this is a strategy we should apply to airline pilots? ie. Don't teach them emergency aircraft control in case it leads them to be reckless?
Driving, just like tennis or darts, is a skill and it will be improved by practice, tuition and learning.
Driver skill levels in Australia are appalling and attitudes and approaches such as the above are part of the reason why.
Just like the old argument of, 'if you give kids safe sex education and birth control you are encouraging them to have sex' er no there gonna do it anyway might as well have some education be it defensive driving or sex ed
Tony Bev said
04:58 PM Jan 2, 2023
I have obviously led a sheltered life, and learned to drive in an old Leyland lorry
I was not fortunate enough, to go to a driving school, so never taught where to place my hands
My RV is the one in my Avatar
2006 Fiat Ducato, it has airbags, and bumps on the underside of the steering wheel, at the 10 to 2 position
I will assume that this vehicle, is meant to be driven, with the hands in the 10 to 2 position
Even now I find I drive as taught by the professional trainers. It's just automatic.
I don't need to be told by a forum Xspurt how to hold a steering wheel either. In fact I find it a little insulting people of many years experience driving, being told as well.
Oh well!
I'm with you Dougwe. I'd find it insulting if some self proclaimed expert tried to tell me how to ride a motorcycle.seeing as I've done four HART (Honda Australia Rider Training) courses.
I was taught 9 to 3 from an advanced driving course.
The knob comment was a little humour. Please dont have your hand on any knob while steering.> Yobarr.
From my observations most truckies steer with the right arm and have the left ready for changing gears if required, and if in a RHD vehicle.
Hold it (the wheel) however you like. There was a bloke on one of those reality highway patrol tv shows, steering a car with a pair of vice grips clamped to the steering column shaft onto the spline where the wheel normally fits.
The old rule of 10 to 2 was difficult at times.
Does anyone ever remember the old XK Falcons with a 5 and 3/4 turns lock to lock or even the old *racing* Vanguard was pretty indirect as well.
It certainly paid you to have the car in the correct gear before you started a turning manoeuvre.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Friday 23rd of December 2022 01:57:20 PM
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Friday 23rd of December 2022 01:58:11 PM
No hands required & no legal requirement to wear a helmet on a unicycle.
Great post Greg! Lots of logic, common sense and indisputable facts displayed here, gathered, no doubt, over your years of involvement in motor racing and advanced driving. When I started this thread my intention was merely to draw attention to what I see as a concerning trend for drivers to hold the steering wheel at the 20 to 4 position, but I was most careful to not offer any advice! Seems that some members still took my post as a challenge to their preferred manner of "driving". Holding a driver's licence does not necessarily make you a driver.
At the 20 to 4 position the driver has absolutely NO control of the car, and the hands are being held in an unnatural position. Have you ever seen anybody sitting with their hands in the palms-up position that holding the steering wheel at 20 to 4 requires?
As far as Advanced Driving courses go, it doesn't matter how many courses you complete, if you can't drive, you can't drive. Whilst I have completed such a course, most "feel" for the car comes, as well-respected racing driver Jim Richards says, "through the seat of your pants" and can never be taught.
Whilst I quickly recognised that Ivan's introduction of knobs into the conversation was a light-hearted attempt to add a little humour to the thread I chose not to respond, as I had no wish to "steal his thunder" by intruding into an area in which Ivan seems to have great knowledge. Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 25th of December 2022 05:47:21 PM
Wifey learnt to drive in the old bedford farm truck (yeah about 17 turns lock to lock),
So in the Audi Q7 now when turning any bend or corner same technique hand over fist 2 hands one side of the wheel.
going around a 270° on ramp one day she says " I never seem to get this one right " I suggested she hold the wheel at 9 & 3.
Sure enough next time around remembering the 9 & 3, She was amazed at how easy it was to drive a perfect line around the 270 ramp!
At last Yobarr, a little humour and satire into your post. Well done mate.
if we go back a long way and read your comments it appears to many that you are a very good owner operator of a knob.
Have a Safe and Happy New Year.
I wonder if anyone remembers Peter Wherrett. On one of his shows, he tried to find and show where drivers got their most sensation for driving control.
He wore a helmet with a visor that opened and closed at a regular frequency so he only had vision for about half of the time. Then driver's seat was moved randomly (sideways, back and forward, maybe rotational) by a motorised controller. He found and demonstrated that he could control his car less when the seat was moved or moving ie better control feeling through the seat of the pants. The brain could cope with the intermittent vision disruptions.
As for hand positions, I normanly drive at 10 to 2, or closer to 9 to 3. The steering wheel spokes hinder going full 9 to 3. I had not heard of 20 to 4 until reading this thread. I had a short try out. Quite uncomfortable for me and seemingly with lack of room to control the steering wheel. I realise decades of muscle training via my driving would also had an impact, but 20 to 4 is not for me.
Once with a work colleague (my boss), I was a bit concerned. He used his thumb and two fingers in the 6 o'clock position, one handed of course.
Perhaps you're right, Ivan? After all, what right do I have to dispute the assertions of an apparent expert in the field! Have a great day, and I wish you only the best for the New Year. Cheers
P.S Perhaps you could advise how you were able to determine that "it appears to many".
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 26th of December 2022 03:10:08 PM
Can't post as poor reception here!
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 26th of December 2022 09:13:10 PM
Interesting post, Ted! Great to see that Peter Wherrett agrees with the great Jim Richards, and what tgey both say is coincidentally exactly what I worked out for myself waaay back, late 60s and early 70s, when I used to absolutely love driving sideways on dirt roads, at well over 160kmh, with my mother sitting beside me!
And could I say that because driving a car with hands at 20 to 4 means that the driver has NO proper control of the car the practice should be actively discouraged, and result in a "fail" when sitting a test to gain a driver's licence.
The fact that driving schools teach this method is absolutely ridiculous, and the practice should be banned.
And we wonder why kids these days can't drive! Modern cars have 2 to 3 times more power than ours had, but the drivers are much less skilled, simply because they have been incorrectly taught, and have never been able to learn proper car control.
"Do gooders" have decided that anybody who drives a car sideways is a "Hoon", so it is difficult for kids to learn. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 27th of December 2022 08:49:53 AM
Well, it seems that maybe there was a tad too much rum in the Christmas pudding this year.
Try this with hands at 20 to 4, and see where you end up. Cheers
P.S Bottom picture is of Jim Richards! Anglia in a field dominated by Mini Cooper Ss. He also raced a Hillman Imp (true) He was aged 21 when this phot was taken. Cheers
About 10 years past, in Victoria, I was involved with an excellent volunteer programme which provided free "L plate" supervision for youngsters who did not have access to a car/driver in their home environment. We volunteers were, properly, required to do a fair bit of training and testing to ensure we were fit and proper people to be let loose with a 16 year old in a car (I must have slipped through the net :) ).
One day I was chatting with a senior government person running the programme and mentioned how I had been unable to find a publicly accessible skid pan for my sons to use when I was teaching them to drive as I consider the best way to learn things such as skid control is in a controlled and safe teaching environment rather than at 2.30am on the freeway at 100kph in a heavy rainstorm.
"Oh, no, no, no" was the reply, "we very much discourage such training as it only encourages people to do these things on the road." And I have heard this response from official sources since, indeed I even recall an article in the RACV magazine by the then head of the RACV espousing the same opinion.
Perhaps this is a strategy we should apply to airline pilots? ie. Don't teach them emergency aircraft control in case it leads them to be reckless?
Driving, just like tennis or darts, is a skill and it will be improved by practice, tuition and learning.
Driver skill levels in Australia are appalling and attitudes and approaches such as the above are part of the reason why.
Hi Mike. Once again you have posted what I believe is common sense, but your views sadly are not shared by the two individuals I've highlighted above.
Again we have such people in these jobs simply because they're too stupid to get a real job.
It is apparent that common sense is becoming increasingly uncommon.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 27th of December 2022 09:56:06 PM
Just like the old argument of, 'if you give kids safe sex education and birth control you are encouraging them to have sex' er no there gonna do it anyway might as well have some education be it defensive driving or sex ed
I was not fortunate enough, to go to a driving school, so never taught where to place my hands
My RV is the one in my Avatar
2006 Fiat Ducato, it has airbags, and bumps on the underside of the steering wheel, at the 10 to 2 position
I will assume that this vehicle, is meant to be driven, with the hands in the 10 to 2 position