Today I have been sitting back, chuckling at the many and varied self-righteous responses from people who appear not to understand why there should be a special licence issued to tow any trailer over, say, 2000kg.
Understanding weights, and the dangerous effects of yaw, as well as displaying an ability to manoeuvre the vehicles, are some of the many reasons that such a licence should be mandatory.
If a person is required to drive a rigid vehicle that has a GVM above 4500kg, that person needs to have a different class of licence, for obvious reasons, but our members seem to think it acceptable to let Ma and Pa Kettle loose in what is effectively an articulated vehicle that typically weighs over 6000kg, and has 1 pivot point. (Hitchpoint)
You'd have to be joking, surely.
The Roadtrains that I drive weigh over 130 tons, have 6 pivot points, and an MC (Multiple Combination) is required. Obtaining this licence is not easy, and means you must have had much prior experience on smaller vehicles, up to a semi-trailer, costs many thousands of dollars, takes much time, and getting a job after being licenced is often very difficult for younger folk, because of strict insurance company requirements.
Do you people really think that because you can say you've "Driven thousands of miles mate, never had an accident mate. Just gotta drive to the conditions mate" you would not need to upgrade your licence now that you plan play caravans? Or maybe they could even aspire to play Roadtrains without a licence upgrade?
Get real. A heavy articulated vehicle is a world away from a car.
Having witnessed many abysmal attempts at reversing, I would suggest that the test for a towing licence should include displaying an ability to reverse through a gateway, on the 'blind' side (left) using mirrors only.
After all, that's what passing my semi-trailer licence test included. If you can't reverse the vehicle, you can't drive it. Simple stuff. Cheers
P.S Licencing car drivers to tow vans will never happen. Imagine the effects on tourism when there were fewer caravanners. And caravanners have too much voting power, so it surely would be political suicide to annoy them? Sad but true. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 26th of April 2023 08:16:25 PM
G'day Yobarr...I agree with what you write...having myself held an open MC type license since 1974 and spending many many years driving road trains, double and triple, along with every other combination on the road, ...I reckon the standard of driving in this country is generally woeful....abysmal in fact. Sadly too I have seen and shared the road with a lot of truck drivers who seriously need further training.
I read the other day a post from some fellow who had included a picture of his new "rig"...a new Japanese Dual Cab with every conceivable extra hooked to a very large tandem axle caravan, writing he is new to caravanning and was looking for some hints...lol...seriously. The whole thing would have weighed every bit of 6 tonne!
I think there does need to be an education system of some sort...the whole affair is not going to get any better without some serious intervention. We read daily in various blogs of caravan owners whining about their Insurance premiums going up and up...WELL HELLO...so are the rate of caravan accidents on the up and up as ill prepared drivers take to the road towing their you beaut $250k rig with no idea.
It is almost laughable if it were not serious that most caravan owners have no idea even what their combination weighs, empty or full,and when you start talking Tare, GVM, GCM, ATM, blanks looks are what you get...let alone what the effects of incorrect loading or braking imbalance have on an articulated combination....especially Pig Trailer type combinations!
RickJ said
01:22 PM Apr 27, 2023
Izabarack wrote:
RickJ wrote:
It is obvious to me anyway that the poll was offered to a genuine crosscut of people based on their readers.
What does a genuine crosscut of people look like? Valid and reliable data can only be derived after disclosing the characteristics of the participant pool. If that is not done, anyone wanting to use the results to advance a point of view can be challenged in their interpretation. Nothing obvious here as to where the participant pool was accessed. Nothing obvious as to the background or skill level needed to meaningfully contribute an opinion. The mere fact that responses were voluntarily skews the derived data to those who have an opinion and are willing to share that opinion. Oh, says Fred, sitting in the Doctors waiting room reading something from the supplied reading material, I dont tow or own a car, but Ill reply to help them out. I dont have to think about it, I already think its a good idea that Govt regulates everything it can.
The poll as presented is no more that descriptive statistics of responses from those persons who decided to respond to a vague and very loose question.
Do you read what you type.
You first accused all readers of that publication who contributed as lacking *Critical Thinking Skills* that includes me and the other 15,000 people that contributed with answers but as your first attack indicated it could include all readers of that publication.
So now you demand that for any poll to be accurate the characteristics of the participants must be disclosed.
Actually the article was from a publication and within that publication was the poll asking 4 simple questions.
I dont think I need to go on.
Your lack of any intention of swaying from your statements arent happening.
Your lack of reply as to why we should pass up an opportunity to increase the skills and safety of our members is from my observation not going to happen either.
As I said it wasnt MY poll so dont continue to question me, my post was to indicate that of 15,000 readers of a motoring publication 67% agreed that further licensing should happen.
Deal with it as you must but it is disappointing that you choose not to provide a better point of view either way than attack a publication and the guy that posted it.
15,000 people is a lot of people and it would be considered a fair crosscut who might open the magazine and choose to read an article on caravanning.
As per your example, those reading the publication in a doctors surgery would be hard pressed for one to actually as your suggestion indicates, to find a magazine that might be remotely classed as a mens publication, then we may note that this book if found in the waiting room would be well out of date and last but not least of the 15,000 contributors, those that actually responded as a result of a visit to a doctor is as ridiculous as your assumption that this minuscule figure would sway the poll result.
Greg 1 said
02:36 PM Apr 27, 2023
Personally, I don't believe a license for towing a van will change anything other than another thing to bolster government coffers.
Certainly some mandatory training for new chums intending to tow a van for the first time makes some sense with recognition for those that have been towing for years.
It is interesting though, on our last trip across the continent, there were an enormous amount of vans on the road, and yet we did not see one accident involving a van.
Conversely, we came across 3 single vehicle accidents involving large trucks with at least one of those a fatal.
A roadtrain roll-over on the Eyre Hwy on the Eyre Peninsular, a prime mover into the trees north of Adelaide (fatal) and a semi tanker roll-over on the Hume near Gundagai.
So just because truck drivers have a heavy license does not make them immune from road traffic accidents. In fact, whilst the vast majority of truck drivers are very professional, some of the closest shaves I have had are idiots in trucks.
Accidents are more often than not about attitude, and there is a very large percentage of drivers of all types of vehicles on Australian roads that need a very large attitude adjustment.
Until such time as governments make it mandatory for learner drivers to be only trained by professional instructors with much higher qualifications than the current crop, and not taught by parents with bad habits attached, that attitude adjustment will never happen, and considering that our politicians are such gutless wimps, that legislation will never happen either.
Jaahn said
03:33 PM Apr 30, 2023
Greg 1 wrote:
Personally, I don't believe a license for towing a van will change anything other than another thing to bolster government coffers. Certainly some mandatory training for new chums intending to tow a van for the first time makes some sense with recognition for those that have been towing for years. ---------
Accidents are more often than not about attitude, and there is a very large percentage of drivers of all types of vehicles on Australian roads that need a very large attitude adjustment. Until such time as governments make it mandatory for learner drivers to be only trained by professional instructors with much higher qualifications than the current crop, ------------
Hmm A very cynical attitude and one that flies in the face of the general push these day for training, and refresher courses and tickets. Should we go back to the good old days when you just trusted that everyone out there knew what they were doing if they wanted to do it !! As I remember it we were not better off !!
I think it is only sensible to get increased training and practical experience for towing a trailer above a certain loaded weight and/or size. Getting a ticket or licence endorsement by set training is the usual way to do this. The details might be open for discussion but it is obvious to me that a large size trailer bigger than the tow vehicle or a heavy trailer that is above a certain weight eg 1500KG should require more training, theory and some practice and then assessment. Just like you do for the first licence and any upgrades. Previous experience may be allowed for !
IMHO it has been remiss of the State governments generally to ignore this. One reason for retraining is often to change the persons attitude and rethink their preconceptions as much as the theory and practice needed. I would be fully supportive of any change.
Jaahn
If you have any previous experience then that may be taken into the equation !
peter67 said
11:30 AM May 1, 2023
Google John Cadogan's newest article "flip van winkle"
G'day Yobarr...I agree with what you write...having myself held an open MC type license since 1974 and spending many many years driving road trains, double and triple, along with every other combination on the road, ...I reckon the standard of driving in this country is generally woeful....abysmal in fact. Sadly too I have seen and shared the road with a lot of truck drivers who seriously need further training.
I read the other day a post from some fellow who had included a picture of his new "rig"...a new Japanese Dual Cab with every conceivable extra hooked to a very large tandem axle caravan, writing he is new to caravanning and was looking for some hints...lol...seriously. The whole thing would have weighed every bit of 6 tonne!
I think there does need to be an education system of some sort...the whole affair is not going to get any better without some serious intervention. We read daily in various blogs of caravan owners whining about their Insurance premiums going up and up...WELL HELLO...so are the rate of caravan accidents on the up and up as ill prepared drivers take to the road towing their you beaut $250k rig with no idea.
It is almost laughable if it were not serious that most caravan owners have no idea even what their combination weighs, empty or full,and when you start talking Tare, GVM, GCM, ATM, blanks looks are what you get...let alone what the effects of incorrect loading or braking imbalance have on an articulated combination....especially Pig Trailer type combinations!
Do you read what you type.
You first accused all readers of that publication who contributed as lacking *Critical Thinking Skills* that includes me and the other 15,000 people that contributed with answers but as your first attack indicated it could include all readers of that publication.
So now you demand that for any poll to be accurate the characteristics of the participants must be disclosed.
Actually the article was from a publication and within that publication was the poll asking 4 simple questions.
I dont think I need to go on.
Your lack of any intention of swaying from your statements arent happening.
Your lack of reply as to why we should pass up an opportunity to increase the skills and safety of our members is from my observation not going to happen either.
As I said it wasnt MY poll so dont continue to question me, my post was to indicate that of 15,000 readers of a motoring publication 67% agreed that further licensing should happen.
Deal with it as you must but it is disappointing that you choose not to provide a better point of view either way than attack a publication and the guy that posted it.
15,000 people is a lot of people and it would be considered a fair crosscut who might open the magazine and choose to read an article on caravanning.
As per your example, those reading the publication in a doctors surgery would be hard pressed for one to actually as your suggestion indicates, to find a magazine that might be remotely classed as a mens publication, then we may note that this book if found in the waiting room would be well out of date and last but not least of the 15,000 contributors, those that actually responded as a result of a visit to a doctor is as ridiculous as your assumption that this minuscule figure would sway the poll result.
Hmm
A very cynical attitude and one that flies in the face of the general push these day for training, and refresher courses and tickets. Should we go back to the good old days when you just trusted that everyone out there knew what they were doing if they wanted to do it !! As I remember it we were not better off !!
I think it is only sensible to get increased training and practical experience for towing a trailer above a certain loaded weight and/or size. Getting a ticket or licence endorsement by set training is the usual way to do this. The details might be open for discussion but it is obvious to me that a large size trailer bigger than the tow vehicle or a heavy trailer that is above a certain weight eg 1500KG should require more training, theory and some practice and then assessment. Just like you do for the first licence and any upgrades. Previous experience may be allowed for !
IMHO it has been remiss of the State governments generally to ignore this. One reason for retraining is often to change the persons attitude and rethink their preconceptions as much as the theory and practice needed. I would be fully supportive of any change.
Jaahn
If you have any previous experience then that may be taken into the equation !