I have asked the manufacturer to put a compressor fridge in the new build.
To answer a few of the issues raised here are the specs on the caravan.
The caravan is a new Crusader Excalibur Prince.
It is a full composit build. It has a full Enerdrive battery and solar system with a Simarine upgrade.
2x 200ah Lithium batteries, 4x 180w Enerdrive solar panels, and another 200w portable panel that will be used in the prime mover as well.
Apart from the fridge, the only electrical draw will be with whatever domestic appliances i decide to use, which will not be a lot.
Hi.
What heating source are you going to use for cooking and water heating, gas or something else?
Are you going for a 14 litre Truma, 28 litre suburban water heater.
Will you be having 2x9kgs gas bottle fitted?
Whenarewethere said
12:18 PM Feb 16, 2022
If a 9kg gas bottle lasts 3 weeks. Each 24 hours the gas fridge is producing 5.85kWh of heat. 2 weeks each 24 hours it's 8.77kWh. I think the level of heat is better outside in summer, but you do have dust ingress issues.
Wanda said
12:46 PM Feb 16, 2022
iana wrote:
So are you saying that you should circulate the air from around the compressor assembly back through the caravan ?
Yes, exactly, and no there are no issues with heat, also better if you are able to attach a fan to circulate the air in warmer weather.
My last and this van have done this as well as many many others, again, no issues and NO dust!
Simples!
Ian
Peter_n_Margaret said
02:04 PM Feb 16, 2022
Whenarewethere wrote:
If a 9kg gas bottle lasts 3 weeks. Each 24 hours the gas fridge is producing 5.85kWh of heat. 2 weeks each 24 hours it's 8.77kWh. I think the level of heat is better outside in summer, but you do have dust ingress issues.
There is no choice with a gas fridge. It MUST be sealed from the inside of the van, or you die.......
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
02:25 PM Feb 16, 2022
I know that. The point was that gas fridges produce a lot of heat whereas compressor fridges it's not enough to worry about, so you vent the compressor fridge inside which solves dust issues.
iana said
03:01 PM Feb 16, 2022
How do you work out how much heat a compressor fridge produces ?
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:07 PM Feb 16, 2022
iana wrote:
How do you work out how much heat a compressor fridge produces ?
I reckon a reasonable estimate would be total power consumption in watt hours per 24 hours (about 50W for 1/3rd of the total time = 400Whrs per day) x COP (Coeficient of Performance = about 1.5) = 600Whrs per 24 hours.
A 60W old style filament globe would emit about 1,400Whrs of heat per 24 hours.
Someone please check my maths.
Cheers,
Peter
oldbloke said
06:52 PM Feb 16, 2022
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Whenarewethere wrote:
If a 9kg gas bottle lasts 3 weeks. Each 24 hours the gas fridge is producing 5.85kWh of heat. 2 weeks each 24 hours it's 8.77kWh. I think the level of heat is better outside in summer, but you do have dust ingress issues.
There is no choice with a gas fridge. It MUST be sealed from the inside of the van, or you die.......
Cheers,
Peter
Sorry, that is just scare mongering. The gas stove for for boiling the kettle produces far more carbon monoxide. And don't forget the van would need to be sealed 100%. Who does that?.
Peter_n_Margaret said
07:09 PM Feb 16, 2022
oldbloke wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
There is no choice with a gas fridge. It MUST be sealed from the inside of the van, or you die.......
Cheers,
Peter
Sorry, that is just scare mongering. The gas stove for for boiling the kettle produces far more carbon monoxide. And don't forget the van would need to be sealed 100%. Who does that?.
Not scare mongering at all.
Cooking and boiling the kettle takes an hour or 2 per day and people are awake and active as it happens.
The gas fridge produces CO 24 hours a day, including while people sleep.
And people do block their vents, or they are inadequate, or the wind blows in the wrong direction.
FACT is people do die from leaking gas fridges (and hot water services), even when only a proportion of those gasses get inside.
Cheers,
Peter
Wanda said
07:16 PM Feb 16, 2022
iana wrote:
How do you work out how much heat a compressor fridge produces ?
Why would you want to ?
Ian
oldbloke said
07:23 PM Feb 16, 2022
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
There is no choice with a gas fridge. It MUST be sealed from the inside of the van, or you die.......
Cheers,
Peter
Sorry, that is just scare mongering. The gas stove for for boiling the kettle produces far more carbon monoxide. And don't forget the van would need to be sealed 100%. Who does that?.
Not scare mongering at all.
Cooking and boiling the kettle takes an hour or 2 per day and people are awake and active as it happens.
The gas fridge produces CO 24 hours a day, including while people sleep.
And people do block their vents, or they are inadequate, or the wind blows in the wrong direction.
FACT is people do die from leaking gas fridges (and hot water services), even when only a proportion of those gasses get inside.
Cheers,
Peter
Fact the flame is about 5% of the size. The van would need to be sealed 100%.
How many deaths a year? 3, or 4?
How many road or work related deaths a year?
It's scare mongering. They are all vented. It would need to be installed with no venting. When did you see a gas fridge installed without vents?
Its Not a problem.
Internet misinformation.
And don't forget every van in the country has a vent in the door.
-- Edited by oldbloke on Wednesday 16th of February 2022 07:25:33 PM
Carbon monoxide poisoning is the most common cause of injury and death due to poisoning worldwide. [6].
"Ongoing user denial
In 2012 user denial came to a head. Three men died in a matter related to carbon monoxide poisoning, in a caravan in Tasmania. Despite no Coroners report yet published, many posts appeared on caravan forums. They denied the cause of the deaths yet came from people with no possible knowledge of what had occurred. Such denial still exists.
Government response Consequent to those deaths, the federal government established a Gas Appliances (Carbon Monoxide) Safety Strategy. Its purpose was to make people (particularly RV users) aware of the risks.
The Caravan and Motorhome Club of Australia (CMCA) asked me to assist in preparing a formal government submission. My report noted that: the existing regulations relating to gas installation in RVs do not necessarily need changing. The problem is that RV owners are not taking risks sufficiently seriously."
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Wednesday 16th of February 2022 07:34:39 PM
oldbloke said
07:51 PM Feb 16, 2022
"The problem is that RV owners are not taking risks sufficiently seriously."
And if I run red lights daily would I expect to live?
3 is just a blip. A sad blip, but just the same a blip.
About 400 a year, car related. I suggest everyone stop driving.
About 10 a year from insect bites, never go out side.
And don't go to the doctor, have you seen how many deaths due to wrong medication. It would horrify you.
It's scare mongering.
Open a window a tad if your worried.
Oh, I forgot. Never cook inside your van. And never operate your diesel or gas heater. It might have a fault. You just never know do you?
-- Edited by oldbloke on Wednesday 16th of February 2022 07:54:06 PM
Whenarewethere said
08:16 PM Feb 16, 2022
Wanda wrote:
iana wrote:
How do you work out how much heat a compressor fridge produces ?
Why would you want to ?
Ian
Because I was bored to tears here is a back of the envelope calculation.
It won't be much, the technical term, as electric motors are extremely efficient these days, let's be conservative & say 80%. The heat from the condenser side of the fridge is virtually all heat moved from inside the fridge.
In a gas fridge you will have the heat moved from inside the fridge same as a compressor fridge, & instead of a, let's say 80% efficient motor, there is a flame.
Actual heat from powering the compressor fridge is so little I personally wouldn't bother factoring it in.
But for arguments sake some have said their large compressor fridge uses 60AH per 24 hours. So 0.72kWh at 80% efficient motor, is about 0.144kWh of actual motor heat per 24 hours.
Heat being removed from inside the fridge is heat which want's to get back in, so that in principle is a closed loop.
So gas fridge motor (flame) heat is about 6.0kWh of heat. Compressor fridge about 0.144kWh of motor heat.
Forgot, if you have the fan I am using, add 1.2 watts while it is running. About 15 minutes per hour when the compressor runs. So about 0.3 watts for the fan, or 7.2 watts per 24 hours. Also a little bit for the electronics.
Roy E said
08:58 PM Feb 16, 2022
Graham,
You have inspired a rather long discussion with your question.
!8 months ago I ordered a new Coromal van and requested that the standard fit Dometic RUA5208 fridge (3-way or absorption) be replaced with a Dometic RUC5208 fridge (12, 24, 240v compressor).
My previous 2 vans had 3-way or absorption fridges and I can tell you that I'm very happy I had the compressor fridge fitted in my latest van which I have been using on and off for 9 months now. It uses little power from battery when mains not available and maintains temperature perfectly no matter what ambient temp is. Dometic make several different sized van fridges available either as absorption (prefix RUA) or compressor (prefix RUC) identical in size and fit requirements between RUA and RUC models.
Cheers,
Roy.
yobarr said
09:31 PM Feb 16, 2022
oldbloke wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
There is no choice with a gas fridge. It MUST be sealed from the inside of the van, or you die.......
Cheers,
Peter
Sorry, that is just scare mongering. The gas stove for for boiling the kettle produces far more carbon monoxide. And don't forget the van would need to be sealed 100%. Who does that?.
Not scare mongering at all.
Cooking and boiling the kettle takes an hour or 2 per day and people are awake and active as it happens.
The gas fridge produces CO 24 hours a day, including while people sleep.
And people do block their vents, or they are inadequate, or the wind blows in the wrong direction.
FACT is people do die from leaking gas fridges (and hot water services), even when only a proportion of those gasses get inside.
Cheers,
Peter
Fact the flame is about 5% of the size. The van would need to be sealed 100%.
How many deaths a year? 3,or 4?
How many road or work related deaths a year?
And don't forget every van in the country has a vent in the door.
Strange "logic" here.The number of hours that people spend in a caravan would be miniscule in comparison with the number of hours that people spend in cars or at work.And no,NOT every van in the country has a vent in the door. My van's appliances, including AC,microwave,toaster,slow cooker, air fryer, electric frying pan,TV,stereo,hot water jug etc are 100% solar powered, with the hot water and heating handled by a diesel heater.NO gas required,so no vent,no need to be concerned about running out of gas,and no need to pay up to $60/bottle in "the bush".People who install 3 way fridges in caravans are living in LaLa land. Installing a compressor fridge is a No Brainer.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 17th of February 2022 07:31:45 AM
gdayjr said
07:55 AM Feb 17, 2022
Radar wrote:
gdayjr wrote:
I have asked the manufacturer to put a compressor fridge in the new build.
To answer a few of the issues raised here are the specs on the caravan.
The caravan is a new Crusader Excalibur Prince.
It is a full composit build. It has a full Enerdrive battery and solar system with a Simarine upgrade.
2x 200ah Lithium batteries, 4x 180w Enerdrive solar panels, and another 200w portable panel that will be used in the prime mover as well.
Apart from the fridge, the only electrical draw will be with whatever domestic appliances i decide to use, which will not be a lot.
Hi.
What heating source are you going to use for cooking and water heating, gas or something else?
Are you going for a 14 litre Truma, 28 litre suburban water heater.
Will you be having 2x9kgs gas bottle fitted?
Lets just focus on the fridge !
Wanda said
08:34 AM Feb 17, 2022
I am Curious, are you venting the fridge inside/outside and have you allowed for a small access door if venting inside!
Ian
iana said
11:58 PM Feb 19, 2022
Curious about the amount of heat released from a compressor fridge, those figures quoted, do they relate only to the energy required to drive the compressor, do the figures also take into account the heat actually removed from the inside of the fridge and contents by the process of latent heat ?
Radar said
07:58 AM Feb 20, 2022
gdayjr wrote:
Radar wrote:
gdayjr wrote:
I have asked the manufacturer to put a compressor fridge in the new build.
To answer a few of the issues raised here are the specs on the caravan.
The caravan is a new Crusader Excalibur Prince.
It is a full composit build. It has a full Enerdrive battery and solar system with a Simarine upgrade.
2x 200ah Lithium batteries, 4x 180w Enerdrive solar panels, and another 200w portable panel that will be used in the prime mover as well.
Apart from the fridge, the only electrical draw will be with whatever domestic appliances i decide to use, which will not be a lot.
Hi.
What heating source are you going to use for cooking and water heating, gas or something else?
Are you going for a 14 litre Truma, 28 litre suburban water heater.
Will you be having 2x9kgs gas bottle fitted?
Lets just focus on the fridge !
Hi.
The refrigerator is one part of the complex of the caravan which along with the stove, water heater, room heater.
Looking at it so far, lots of solar & batteries for one powered item, the refrigerator. Well you say 2, the lights.
Now your are going to need a source of power for the stove, water heater & room heater because they will not run off solar.
That is going to require other fuel sources. Maybe one or 2 fuel sources.
In our caravan at present we have 3 fuel sources, solar 2x170 watts feeding 1x110 amps battery, 2x9 kgs gas, also 10 litres of diesel for the room heater which will possibly be replaced with a gas heater in near future. One to remove the fuel source to lighten the load to make it all neat and tidy.
Yes it all part of the big picture.
Peter_n_Margaret awesome home built mobilehome basically uses 2 sources of fuel only, diesel and solar which is great but for a factory built caravan it is very expensive to go all diesel unless you have unlimited supply of cash along with unengineered caravan special order build time.
For us we do not have endless supply of money with long caravan build time, we would rather be out there enjoying our off the shelf basic simple caravan now using common supplied white goods.
-- Edited by Radar on Sunday 20th of February 2022 08:36:27 AM
Radar said
08:24 AM Feb 20, 2022
My finger operated to quick, a double up.
-- Edited by Radar on Sunday 20th of February 2022 08:26:49 AM
Whenarewethere said
08:34 AM Feb 20, 2022
The heat being removed from the inside the fridge is heat which is returned through the walls & door. It's a closed loop. The heat will return through the air, cabinet walls, floor to it is surprising the amount of cold that comes out the bottom of a fridge, this is actually heat getting into the fridge, not cold falling out. Cold is not escaping fridges, it is heat getting it.
It you have really good insulation then the fridge motor won't be working as hard because the heat getting back in is at a slower rate.
If one is constantly opening the fridge door far more heat is put back inside the fridge so the fridge has to work harder.
If you have a top loading fridge (Esky) the heat will not replace the cold nearly as quickly.
If you have a stock standard fridge X amount of heat will keep getting back into the fridge this rate.
If you have a highly insulated fridge (often 200mm thick on boats) Y amount of heat wants to get back into the fridge.
In my case, some idiot (me) keeps getting beer out of the fridge so then the compressor has to then put that heat back outside the fridge. The fridge is not producing any more heat. It is that heat has got into the fridge at a rate higher than desirable to minimise battery or gas resources to maintain a temperature to keep beer drinkable.
Warning. Previously posted image, some people here say I repeat myself & contribute 'rubbish'. To date yet to see anything constructive from said people.
I have done a thread on fridge insulation which if people take onboard a hint of the information they will have a far better setup. It's not expensive or difficult stuff. Putting it simply they will cut their solar or gas input.
Wanda said
09:09 AM Feb 20, 2022
iana wrote:
Curious about the amount of heat released from a compressor fridge, those figures quoted, do they relate only to the energy required to drive the compressor, do the figures also take into account the heat actually removed from the inside of the fridge and contents by the process of latent heat ?
How long is a piece of string?
Aus-Kiwi said
04:56 PM Feb 20, 2022
Motor itself ? Very little . The condenser ? About as much cold added to inside of fridge as it transferred temps ! Much like an AC at home !
Yes. About the heat of a light globe.
With our DIY freezer, the fan blows the air upwards to dry the teatowls.
Cheers,
Peter
Hi.
What heating source are you going to use for cooking and water heating, gas or something else?
Are you going for a 14 litre Truma, 28 litre suburban water heater.
Will you be having 2x9kgs gas bottle fitted?
If a 9kg gas bottle lasts 3 weeks. Each 24 hours the gas fridge is producing 5.85kWh of heat. 2 weeks each 24 hours it's 8.77kWh. I think the level of heat is better outside in summer, but you do have dust ingress issues.
Yes, exactly, and no there are no issues with heat, also better if you are able to attach a fan to circulate the air in warmer weather.
My last and this van have done this as well as many many others, again, no issues and NO dust!
Simples!
Ian
There is no choice with a gas fridge. It MUST be sealed from the inside of the van, or you die.......
Cheers,
Peter
I know that. The point was that gas fridges produce a lot of heat whereas compressor fridges it's not enough to worry about, so you vent the compressor fridge inside which solves dust issues.
I reckon a reasonable estimate would be total power consumption in watt hours per 24 hours (about 50W for 1/3rd of the total time = 400Whrs per day) x COP (Coeficient of Performance = about 1.5) = 600Whrs per 24 hours.
A 60W old style filament globe would emit about 1,400Whrs of heat per 24 hours.
Someone please check my maths.
Cheers,
Peter
Sorry, that is just scare mongering. The gas stove for for boiling the kettle produces far more carbon monoxide. And don't forget the van would need to be sealed 100%. Who does that?.
Not scare mongering at all.
Cooking and boiling the kettle takes an hour or 2 per day and people are awake and active as it happens.
The gas fridge produces CO 24 hours a day, including while people sleep.
And people do block their vents, or they are inadequate, or the wind blows in the wrong direction.
FACT is people do die from leaking gas fridges (and hot water services), even when only a proportion of those gasses get inside.
Cheers,
Peter
Why would you want to ?
Ian
Fact the flame is about 5% of the size. The van would need to be sealed 100%.
How many deaths a year? 3, or 4?
How many road or work related deaths a year?
It's scare mongering. They are all vented. It would need to be installed with no venting. When did you see a gas fridge installed without vents?
Its Not a problem.
Internet misinformation.
And don't forget every van in the country has a vent in the door.
-- Edited by oldbloke on Wednesday 16th of February 2022 07:25:33 PM
More on carbon monoxide poisoning....
Carbon Monoxide Poisoning - RV Books %
"Ongoing user denial
In 2012 user denial came to a head. Three men died in a matter related to carbon monoxide poisoning, in a caravan in Tasmania. Despite no Coroners report yet published, many posts appeared on caravan forums. They denied the cause of the deaths yet came from people with no possible knowledge of what had occurred. Such denial still exists.
Government response
Consequent to those deaths, the federal government established a Gas Appliances (Carbon Monoxide) Safety Strategy. Its purpose was to make people (particularly RV users) aware of the risks.
The Caravan and Motorhome Club of Australia (CMCA) asked me to assist in preparing a formal government submission. My report noted that: the existing regulations relating to gas installation in RVs do not necessarily need changing. The problem is that RV owners are not taking risks sufficiently seriously."
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Wednesday 16th of February 2022 07:34:39 PM
"The problem is that RV owners are not taking risks sufficiently seriously."
And if I run red lights daily would I expect to live?
3 is just a blip. A sad blip, but just the same a blip.
About 400 a year, car related. I suggest everyone stop driving.
About 10 a year from insect bites, never go out side.
And don't go to the doctor, have you seen how many deaths due to wrong medication. It would horrify you.
It's scare mongering.
Open a window a tad if your worried.
Oh, I forgot. Never cook inside your van. And never operate your diesel or gas heater. It might have a fault. You just never know do you?
-- Edited by oldbloke on Wednesday 16th of February 2022 07:54:06 PM
Because I was bored to tears here is a back of the envelope calculation.
It won't be much, the technical term, as electric motors are extremely efficient these days, let's be conservative & say 80%. The heat from the condenser side of the fridge is virtually all heat moved from inside the fridge.
In a gas fridge you will have the heat moved from inside the fridge same as a compressor fridge, & instead of a, let's say 80% efficient motor, there is a flame.
Actual heat from powering the compressor fridge is so little I personally wouldn't bother factoring it in.
But for arguments sake some have said their large compressor fridge uses 60AH per 24 hours. So 0.72kWh at 80% efficient motor, is about 0.144kWh of actual motor heat per 24 hours.
Heat being removed from inside the fridge is heat which want's to get back in, so that in principle is a closed loop.
So gas fridge motor (flame) heat is about 6.0kWh of heat. Compressor fridge about 0.144kWh of motor heat.
Forgot, if you have the fan I am using, add 1.2 watts while it is running. About 15 minutes per hour when the compressor runs. So about 0.3 watts for the fan, or 7.2 watts per 24 hours. Also a little bit for the electronics.
You have inspired a rather long discussion with your question.
!8 months ago I ordered a new Coromal van and requested that the standard fit Dometic RUA5208 fridge (3-way or absorption) be replaced with a Dometic RUC5208 fridge (12, 24, 240v compressor).
My previous 2 vans had 3-way or absorption fridges and I can tell you that I'm very happy I had the compressor fridge fitted in my latest van which I have been using on and off for 9 months now. It uses little power from battery when mains not available and maintains temperature perfectly no matter what ambient temp is. Dometic make several different sized van fridges available either as absorption (prefix RUA) or compressor (prefix RUC) identical in size and fit requirements between RUA and RUC models.
Cheers,
Roy.
Strange "logic" here.The number of hours that people spend in a caravan would be miniscule in comparison with the number of hours that people spend in cars or at work.And no,NOT every van in the country has a vent in the door. My van's appliances, including AC,microwave,toaster,slow cooker, air fryer, electric frying pan,TV,stereo,hot water jug etc are 100% solar powered, with the hot water and heating handled by a diesel heater.NO gas required,so no vent,no need to be concerned about running out of gas,and no need to pay up to $60/bottle in "the bush".People who install 3 way fridges in caravans are living in LaLa land. Installing a compressor fridge is a No Brainer.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 17th of February 2022 07:31:45 AM
Lets just focus on the fridge !
Ian
Hi.
The refrigerator is one part of the complex of the caravan which along with the stove, water heater, room heater.
Looking at it so far, lots of solar & batteries for one powered item, the refrigerator. Well you say 2, the lights.
Now your are going to need a source of power for the stove, water heater & room heater because they will not run off solar.
That is going to require other fuel sources. Maybe one or 2 fuel sources.
In our caravan at present we have 3 fuel sources, solar 2x170 watts feeding 1x110 amps battery, 2x9 kgs gas, also 10 litres of diesel for the room heater which will possibly be replaced with a gas heater in near future. One to remove the fuel source to lighten the load to make it all neat and tidy.
Yes it all part of the big picture.
Peter_n_Margaret awesome home built mobilehome basically uses 2 sources of fuel only, diesel and solar which is great but for a factory built caravan it is very expensive to go all diesel unless you have unlimited supply of cash along with unengineered caravan special order build time.
For us we do not have endless supply of money with long caravan build time, we would rather be out there enjoying our off the shelf basic simple caravan now using common supplied white goods.
-- Edited by Radar on Sunday 20th of February 2022 08:36:27 AM
My finger operated to quick, a double up.
-- Edited by Radar on Sunday 20th of February 2022 08:26:49 AM
The heat being removed from the inside the fridge is heat which is returned through the walls & door. It's a closed loop. The heat will return through the air, cabinet walls, floor to it is surprising the amount of cold that comes out the bottom of a fridge, this is actually heat getting into the fridge, not cold falling out. Cold is not escaping fridges, it is heat getting it.
It you have really good insulation then the fridge motor won't be working as hard because the heat getting back in is at a slower rate.
If one is constantly opening the fridge door far more heat is put back inside the fridge so the fridge has to work harder.
If you have a top loading fridge (Esky) the heat will not replace the cold nearly as quickly.
If you have a stock standard fridge X amount of heat will keep getting back into the fridge this rate.
If you have a highly insulated fridge (often 200mm thick on boats) Y amount of heat wants to get back into the fridge.
In my case, some idiot (me) keeps getting beer out of the fridge so then the compressor has to then put that heat back outside the fridge. The fridge is not producing any more heat. It is that heat has got into the fridge at a rate higher than desirable to minimise battery or gas resources to maintain a temperature to keep beer drinkable.
Warning. Previously posted image, some people here say I repeat myself & contribute 'rubbish'. To date yet to see anything constructive from said people.
I have done a thread on fridge insulation which if people take onboard a hint of the information they will have a far better setup. It's not expensive or difficult stuff. Putting it simply they will cut their solar or gas input.
How long is a piece of string?