It's not the 99.99% of VICTORIANS (apparently we're highlighted in block capitals now...) who need to sort themselves out. The problem goes from bad to worse among groups of a certain persuasion in the known Melbourne hotspots who continually demonstrate no care or responsibility. Hard as it obviously is not to generalise, please do not define 6 million decent and completely unaffected Victorians by the ineptitude of the tiny few who refuse to comply, and even worse by a state govt totally incapable of managing the situation. Good luck up in Qld. Wish us luck in Vic, we are one people. Or are we...
Tony,
I think this current news article goes toward your above post.
The Vic govt has a real problem if they continue to adopt a softly softly attitude.
Our entire economy will vaporize before we ever get to the stage of eliminating the virus and ScoMo has reiterated that all along, including today.
Had enough of the hysteria. Time to get out of the bunker and get on with it.
The success seen in other states shows that eliminating it is a realistic goal. Some South Pacific nations have done it, totally. Our NZ neighbours have nearly done it. The "Keeping it out" bit is the problem now. Victoria has dropped the ball, big time, and all Victorians are suffering for it.
ScoMo has an opinion I do not want to see in practice. Qld's Anna has concentrated on the public health care aspects of a response to the virus and my health is far more important than ScoMo wants to do. ScoMo's indifference to people's lives over money is disgusting.
Hysteria? The Victorian situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The shape of the curve is already showing the same kind of movement following the first outbreak in Aust. Actual public health experts are already advising that the list of postcodes in lockdown will get bigger. And we already see selfish Victorians trying to leave the state before it gets locked down. Getting out of the bunker is only likely to create the same regression as we now see in Victoria.
Iza
SouthernComfort said
09:11 AM Jul 1, 2020
bentaxlebabe wrote:
SouthernComfort wrote:
It's not the 99.99% of VICTORIANS (apparently we're highlighted in block capitals now...) who need to sort themselves out. The problem goes from bad to worse among groups of a certain persuasion in the known Melbourne hotspots who continually demonstrate no care or responsibility. Hard as it obviously is not to generalise, please do not define 6 million decent and completely unaffected Victorians by the ineptitude of the tiny few who refuse to comply, and even worse by a state govt totally incapable of managing the situation. Good luck up in Qld. Wish us luck in Vic, we are one people. Or are we...
Tony,
I think this current news article goes toward your above post.
The Vic govt has a real problem if they continue to adopt a softly softly attitude.
Correct Angie. This is one group contributing to the cause of the recent outbreak, the guards fiasco was another, however there has been a number of other the factors at play. The Vic state govt drip feeds bits and pieces through the media while keeping quiet about those other factors, including their own inactions, all of which have contributed significantly to the problem.
Border closure isn't now, and never was a solution for any state, our economic recovery from that over-reaction will never been seen in our lifetime. Many livelihoods will never recover. But much of the very low incidence of Covid-19 in Australia could have been contained with a consistent and cooperative approach by all premiers. Morrison endeavoured to induce this right from the start by creating the national cabinet to protect the population's health and the economy (always remember the two are inextricably linked, a collapsing economy directly impacts the health and well being of people). Instead, the premiers all sat in Canberra paying lip service to the strategy of a unified approach, then returned home to each do their own and different things with much bungling in the process. Thanks to these renegades we now have great division in this country which has done none of us any good. Look at the narrative at all levels, the mounting resentments, state pitched against state, and ignorance such as that which satisfyingly blames "selfish Victorians" for all the woes we've been dealt. Sad days.
-- Edited by SouthernComfort on Wednesday 1st of July 2020 10:20:25 AM
Rob Driver said
09:58 AM Jul 1, 2020
Oh, if we could only take the emotion and personal jibes of out being permitted to cross a border.
The majority of state Premiers have at least, up until now, done the right thing in reducing the numbers within their respective states.
If this is the actions of Renegades then it has worked.
I could bet that the majority of Victorias permanent population that wants to travel to Queensland at this moment all wish that they had such a Renegade running their state.
I have said this before but once again, if you listen to the Premier of Victoria and his staff and ministers who are responsible for the current outbreak, they are all in Complete Denial as to what they did wrong.
If the situation were reversed and it was Qld that had the problem and all the Qlders wanted to go to Vic for the winter, the response from Victorians would be exactly the same.
This response is not so much personal from one Vic to one Qlder, it it is a view brought about entirely by the current situation of one state having an escalating problem and the other with a much more favourable current situation with regard to the virus.
This fear is only brought about by human nature, that is how we are all wired.
If a Qlder does not go to Victoria he/she has very little chance of catching the virus and it is the same in reverse.
So Tony, while you are passionate about the border closures and restrictions, the decision to do what we are collectively doing is for the best when taking into account the most successful methods to prevent transmission of this virus.
If this virus becomes rampant in all states then we as a country will not give two hoots about wether a Victorian or anyone else for that matter can holiday in Cairns or the Whitsunday islands.
On closing I remember my dear old dad giving us kids some wise advice...he said,
If you dont walk on a railway line you will never get hit by a train.
Regards
Angie
SouthernComfort said
10:50 AM Jul 1, 2020
Well Angie, pity you still insist on lumping everyone into the same bracket. Why are we talking about "Victorians" as if the collective is somehow a threat to anyone? There are a small number of people who reside in a corner of Melbourne that are of concern, the other 6 million in the state are not (getting so sick of saying this). As for the infected few, they are now confined, better late than never. Shame the state govt didn't act sooner, no argument from me on that point.
As for fear, it is an irrational emotion. There is a long standing acronym: False Evidence Appearing Real. Human emotions and often misguided passions don't have boundaries, they easily escalate to the point of the irrational and on to hysteria. Life is full of risks, that's why we practice "risk management". It's like pretending that if we stay locked up long enough we can eliminate the virus. Forget the state borders, it would mean we can never reopen our international borders. The virus will be around for a long, long time.
Every day we risk our investments, our health, if we cross the road we risk our lives. If we leave the house we put ourselves at risk. Opening your borders to all except those from Victoria will not preclude you from the risk of infections rising in your state, please don't be lured into that false sense of security. You can sit on your hands for an entire lifetime and exist in a bubble based on fear, or you can be part of learning to live in a new world, the old one as we knew it has gone.
Rob Driver said
11:30 AM Jul 1, 2020
Tony, you present a great argument or we should really call it a debate.
There are two Risks as they exist.
Risk 1
is a gamble which may be calculated so as to compare all outcomes before you enter into the action.
EG: Stock market, Gambling, Your personal ability to cross the road safely, or even walking on the train line and knowing when to get off when you hear the trains whistle.
Risk 2
is once a gain a gamble but this time without the ability to project the Worst Outcome due to this Worst situation entering the area of the totally unknown. This risk can be taken with the Hope of it not reaching its Worst situation but its final result will never be known without entering into it. It cannot be calculated as you can in Risk 1. Just like walking on the railway line with ear muffs on. You may not get hit by a train if a train does not come, but you will sure as hell suffer badly if a train does come.
With the chinavirus in any country, the risk is there, Australia to date has done a pretty good job of containing it and managing it, other countries not so good.
Most of our leaders in Aus have adopted best result practices, some havent.
The unknown result of this risk is opening the country to all travel.
Regards
Angie
msg said
12:08 PM Jul 1, 2020
hmmmm Probably shouldn't have said that .
-- Edited by msg on Wednesday 1st of July 2020 12:11:31 PM
SouthernComfort said
02:15 PM Jul 1, 2020
I will always respect and even enjoy a spirited exchange of views, but let's not get deeply into discussing the science of Risk Management, we'd never finish! My career was largely based on it, no lectures required (either way), save to say that Risk Management comprises a dozen basic and advanced principals (or stages). Finessing a strategy for the most balanced outcome involves implementing all of those principals, particularly when addressing the most critical of situations. Weighting Risk vs. Benefit is not a simple science and is one that often challenges human instincts.
Anyhow, back to the core topic - our various views in here will always differ, so I've little interest in perpetuating the debate with endless repetition. We can clearly see the differences in the opposing views which have been expressed several times over.
A few facts to reiterate in closing though:
National stats Australia:
Covid-19 YTD - 104 deaths
2019 road toll - 1,182 deaths
2019 influenza - 900 deaths (not including those who didn't present to hospital)
2018 suicide - 3,046 deaths (ABS data released Sept 2019)
dabbler said
03:54 PM Jul 1, 2020
When you fall back to relying on Road Toll as a comparison to an INFECTIOUS disease, it just demonstrates that knowledge of risk management isn't worth a cracker unless you also understand the nature of the risk. Simple fact, those jurisdictions, states and countries that closed their borders, all around the world, have much lower instances of Covid-19.
Izabarack said
04:59 PM Jul 1, 2020
SouthernComfort wrote:
National stats Australia:
Covid-19 YTD - 104 deaths
2019 road toll - 1,182 deaths
2019 influenza - 900 deaths (not including those who didn't present to hospital)
2018 suicide - 3,046 deaths (ABS data released Sept 2019)
There is Zero equivalence between the spread of the CORVID-19 virus and things like road trauma rates, the seasonal flu, or Suicide rates. The appropriate response to each issue is different and the effectiveness of responses is different. Closing the borders has zero effect on rates of road trauma, seasonal flu, or suicide. Attempts to argue that opening the borders will or would have any effect on rates of road trauma, flu, or suicide lack any explanation of how such action would have any effect on those issues. In contrast, it is comprehensively shown that the simple restriction of movement does effect the spread of the virus. I live in Qld and am so so thankful that Anna has my best interests at heart.
Iza
SouthernComfort said
07:13 PM Jul 1, 2020
dabbler: "When you fall back to relying on Road Toll as a comparison to an INFECTIOUS disease".....
Iza: "Attempts to argue that opening the borders will or would have any effect on rates of road trauma, flu, or suicide lack any explanation of how such action would have any effect on those issues".....
Well there you go, the point totally misinterpreted. You're seriously suggesting my point was to make direct comparisons of these causes of death? It is in fact an example to illustrate the perspective of cause and reaction, as it was when first posted. Maybe too subtle, I should have suspected it would be misunderstood. Some will 'get it', others won't.
If we'd had a solid unified approach with consistent terms in all states as ScoMo had set in place, none of the bungling in Victoria would have happened, neither would the needless diving for the bunker in Qld been necessary for so long.
I'm well and truly done, take as many free kicks as you want, enjoy!
Rob Driver said
12:17 PM Jul 6, 2020
I just hear that the NSW Victoria border will be closed.
I guess ScoMo is now irrelevant in the circumstances. Anna is doing a bloody good job and Gladys finally found out what she should have been doing. all along. I do feel sorry for all the drug addicts and alcoholics (Pauline's assumptions) in lockdown in the towers in Melbourne. Sad too, that all Victorians have to suffer for the silly actions of a few.
Tony,
I think this current news article goes toward your above post.
The Vic govt has a real problem if they continue to adopt a softly softly attitude.
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/coronavirus-victoria-massive-number-of-people-refusing-tests-in-broadmeadows-and-keilor-downs/news-story/9b0499388dd2ec2dd0f6e9b0efde24cd
Regards
Angie
The success seen in other states shows that eliminating it is a realistic goal. Some South Pacific nations have done it, totally. Our NZ neighbours have nearly done it. The "Keeping it out" bit is the problem now. Victoria has dropped the ball, big time, and all Victorians are suffering for it.
ScoMo has an opinion I do not want to see in practice. Qld's Anna has concentrated on the public health care aspects of a response to the virus and my health is far more important than ScoMo wants to do. ScoMo's indifference to people's lives over money is disgusting.
Hysteria? The Victorian situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The shape of the curve is already showing the same kind of movement following the first outbreak in Aust. Actual public health experts are already advising that the list of postcodes in lockdown will get bigger. And we already see selfish Victorians trying to leave the state before it gets locked down. Getting out of the bunker is only likely to create the same regression as we now see in Victoria.
Iza
Correct Angie. This is one group contributing to the cause of the recent outbreak, the guards fiasco was another, however there has been a number of other the factors at play. The Vic state govt drip feeds bits and pieces through the media while keeping quiet about those other factors, including their own inactions, all of which have contributed significantly to the problem.
Border closure isn't now, and never was a solution for any state, our economic recovery from that over-reaction will never been seen in our lifetime. Many livelihoods will never recover. But much of the very low incidence of Covid-19 in Australia could have been contained with a consistent and cooperative approach by all premiers. Morrison endeavoured to induce this right from the start by creating the national cabinet to protect the population's health and the economy (always remember the two are inextricably linked, a collapsing economy directly impacts the health and well being of people). Instead, the premiers all sat in Canberra paying lip service to the strategy of a unified approach, then returned home to each do their own and different things with much bungling in the process. Thanks to these renegades we now have great division in this country which has done none of us any good. Look at the narrative at all levels, the mounting resentments, state pitched against state, and ignorance such as that which satisfyingly blames "selfish Victorians" for all the woes we've been dealt. Sad days.
-- Edited by SouthernComfort on Wednesday 1st of July 2020 10:20:25 AM
The majority of state Premiers have at least, up until now, done the right thing in reducing the numbers within their respective states.
If this is the actions of Renegades then it has worked.
I could bet that the majority of Victorias permanent population that wants to travel to Queensland at this moment all wish that they had such a Renegade running their state.
I have said this before but once again, if you listen to the Premier of Victoria and his staff and ministers who are responsible for the current outbreak, they are all in Complete Denial as to what they did wrong.
If the situation were reversed and it was Qld that had the problem and all the Qlders wanted to go to Vic for the winter, the response from Victorians would be exactly the same.
This response is not so much personal from one Vic to one Qlder, it it is a view brought about entirely by the current situation of one state having an escalating problem and the other with a much more favourable current situation with regard to the virus.
This fear is only brought about by human nature, that is how we are all wired.
If a Qlder does not go to Victoria he/she has very little chance of catching the virus and it is the same in reverse.
So Tony, while you are passionate about the border closures and restrictions, the decision to do what we are collectively doing is for the best when taking into account the most successful methods to prevent transmission of this virus.
If this virus becomes rampant in all states then we as a country will not give two hoots about wether a Victorian or anyone else for that matter can holiday in Cairns or the Whitsunday islands.
On closing I remember my dear old dad giving us kids some wise advice...he said,
If you dont walk on a railway line you will never get hit by a train.
Regards
Angie
Well Angie, pity you still insist on lumping everyone into the same bracket. Why are we talking about "Victorians" as if the collective is somehow a threat to anyone? There are a small number of people who reside in a corner of Melbourne that are of concern, the other 6 million in the state are not (getting so sick of saying this). As for the infected few, they are now confined, better late than never. Shame the state govt didn't act sooner, no argument from me on that point.
As for fear, it is an irrational emotion. There is a long standing acronym: False Evidence Appearing Real. Human emotions and often misguided passions don't have boundaries, they easily escalate to the point of the irrational and on to hysteria. Life is full of risks, that's why we practice "risk management". It's like pretending that if we stay locked up long enough we can eliminate the virus. Forget the state borders, it would mean we can never reopen our international borders. The virus will be around for a long, long time.
Every day we risk our investments, our health, if we cross the road we risk our lives. If we leave the house we put ourselves at risk. Opening your borders to all except those from Victoria will not preclude you from the risk of infections rising in your state, please don't be lured into that false sense of security. You can sit on your hands for an entire lifetime and exist in a bubble based on fear, or you can be part of learning to live in a new world, the old one as we knew it has gone.
There are two Risks as they exist.
Risk 1
is a gamble which may be calculated so as to compare all outcomes before you enter into the action.
EG: Stock market, Gambling, Your personal ability to cross the road safely, or even walking on the train line and knowing when to get off when you hear the trains whistle.
Risk 2
is once a gain a gamble but this time without the ability to project the Worst Outcome due to this Worst situation entering the area of the totally unknown. This risk can be taken with the Hope of it not reaching its Worst situation but its final result will never be known without entering into it. It cannot be calculated as you can in Risk 1. Just like walking on the railway line with ear muffs on. You may not get hit by a train if a train does not come, but you will sure as hell suffer badly if a train does come.
With the chinavirus in any country, the risk is there, Australia to date has done a pretty good job of containing it and managing it, other countries not so good.
Most of our leaders in Aus have adopted best result practices, some havent.
The unknown result of this risk is opening the country to all travel.
Regards
Angie
hmmmm Probably shouldn't have said that .
-- Edited by msg on Wednesday 1st of July 2020 12:11:31 PM
I will always respect and even enjoy a spirited exchange of views, but let's not get deeply into discussing the science of Risk Management, we'd never finish! My career was largely based on it, no lectures required (either way), save to say that Risk Management comprises a dozen basic and advanced principals (or stages). Finessing a strategy for the most balanced outcome involves implementing all of those principals, particularly when addressing the most critical of situations. Weighting Risk vs. Benefit is not a simple science and is one that often challenges human instincts.
Anyhow, back to the core topic - our various views in here will always differ, so I've little interest in perpetuating the debate with endless repetition. We can clearly see the differences in the opposing views which have been expressed several times over.
A few facts to reiterate in closing though:
National stats Australia:
Covid-19 YTD - 104 deaths
2019 road toll - 1,182 deaths
2019 influenza - 900 deaths (not including those who didn't present to hospital)
2018 suicide - 3,046 deaths (ABS data released Sept 2019)
There is Zero equivalence between the spread of the CORVID-19 virus and things like road trauma rates, the seasonal flu, or Suicide rates. The appropriate response to each issue is different and the effectiveness of responses is different. Closing the borders has zero effect on rates of road trauma, seasonal flu, or suicide. Attempts to argue that opening the borders will or would have any effect on rates of road trauma, flu, or suicide lack any explanation of how such action would have any effect on those issues. In contrast, it is comprehensively shown that the simple restriction of movement does effect the spread of the virus. I live in Qld and am so so thankful that Anna has my best interests at heart.
Iza
dabbler: "When you fall back to relying on Road Toll as a comparison to an INFECTIOUS disease".....
Iza: "Attempts to argue that opening the borders will or would have any effect on rates of road trauma, flu, or suicide lack any explanation of how such action would have any effect on those issues".....
Well there you go, the point totally misinterpreted. You're seriously suggesting my point was to make direct comparisons of these causes of death? It is in fact an example to illustrate the perspective of cause and reaction, as it was when first posted. Maybe too subtle, I should have suspected it would be misunderstood. Some will 'get it', others won't.
If we'd had a solid unified approach with consistent terms in all states as ScoMo had set in place, none of the bungling in Victoria would have happened, neither would the needless diving for the bunker in Qld been necessary for so long.
I'm well and truly done, take as many free kicks as you want, enjoy!
I just hear that the NSW Victoria border will be closed.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-06/victoria-nsw-border-to-close-over-coronavirus-fears/12424686
It has been 101 years since this last happened.
It was another pandemic that caused this closure.
I am interested in how many of you will call foul on Gladys like was called on Annastacia.
Regards
Angie
-- Edited by bentaxlebabe on Monday 6th of July 2020 12:29:54 PM
Haha, isnt that a twist from what we have all heard over the last three to four weeks.
Read all about it here.
www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-04/coronavirus-queensland-holiday-flights-now-borders-to-open/12407718
Regards
Angie
Iza