"The method behind the madness, was to use low cost (night time) electricity, to pump water from the lake below, to the man made lake above
This electricity generated is used to fill in gaps on the grid, when it is required
It was around one minute, to get up to full capacity, (just open the valves and stand back)
It had paid for itself within the first few years of operation
Knowing that such a power station does work, I am confident that the Snowy 2, will also work
As Peter has already said, the cost of pumping the water uphill, has no meaning, if the power used is either excess power, or power from renewables"
This is the principle behind pumper storage. The cost of electricity varies according to the time of day and the availablity of generation. With a coal fired power station, it takes up to 24 hours to get it up to full power. The demand on the power grid varies over the day - from low demand late at night, early in the morning to very high at peak times when people are travelling home, cooking meals, watching TV etc, and also when Industry firs up or closes down for the day. The difference between maximum and minimum demand varies for each state, but t here is a 'base load' and a 'cyclic load'.
Base loads are currently supplied by the large coal fired stations. They run 24 /7 and they try to keep their loading at or near the point of maximum efficiency. Peak loads are supplied by gas turbines (which can be fired up within minutes), diesel generators or Hydro power. Typically, a combination of gas turbines, diesels and hydro is used. In coming years, Solar power and Wind power will gradually replace the coal fired stations on the grid.
All the power is fed into the grid, which is controlled by the National Energy Marketing Authority. Each generator bids to get his plant on line. The cheapest bidder gets his plant on line. Example - Bidder A has 2500 MW of generation available, so he bids a cheap price - say $20 per MWh. Bidder B has the same capacity but he wants $30 per MWh. Bidder C has peak load capacity and offers 200 MW at $100 per MWh. Now, the load varies and at 2:00 am, it falls to 4500 MW. Bidder A has his plant (2500 MW) so he is on line. Bidder B has his plant available as well, but he only get to supply 2000 MW. Bidder C misses out completely. Pricing is complicated however because there is no way to define who gets A's power and who gets B's power, so the price charged to the consumer is the higher price is $30 per MWh. Now, it the demand rises to say 5100 MW, Bidder C gets his plant on line as well, although only 100 MW from him. Now, the price to the consumer goes up to $100 per MWH.
The situation is even more complicated because each Bidder has to guarantee that the power offered will be there when he said it would be. There are heavy penalties for failing to provide the power when required. So companies offer the guarantee supply. If one of Bidder A's generators has a bearing fault or whatever, he faces a huge penalty, so he insures with other suppliers to cover his generation in the event of a transmission line fault or whatever. Typically, there has to be sufficient excess generation available to cover the loss of the largest generator on the grid. Currently, this is 660 MW. So, whatever the load on the grid, they always have an extra 660 MW in reserve, waiting for a machine malfunction. This is where Hydro can come into its own. Dinorwig in Wales is a prime example. As has been said above, it was built in an old slate quarry, and has 6 machines of 300 MW each. If they are prepared, they can have 1500 MW on line within 10 seconds. As said above, the station has been operational since 1982, and within 5 years of operation it paid for itself by simply not having to have the extra thermal generation waiting for the inevitable failure of a piece of plant. Snowy 2.0 will do the same function.
Ideally, Nuclear power should replace the coal fired power, but this is unlikely to happen in Australia. So we need some form of energy storage to cover the periods when Solar or wind power are not available. Grid batteries simply do not have enough capacity, nor will they ever have enough. Their main function is to stabilise the grid when a generator fails. They prop up the grid until a gas turbine can be fired up and get up to power. This is where Hydro schemes shine. Except Australia simply doesn't have enough water to fully back up the electricity grid, so the next step is Pumped storage ie Snowy 2.0 or the equivalent. But Hydro schemes are expensive, and they require about 10 years from go to on-line. So, planning is required - NOW - or in 5 years time teh grids will collapse because of lack of generation facilities.
End of rant....
Cupie said
10:26 AM Mar 4, 2021
erad .. Thanks for taking the time to post your comprehensive explanation.
Craig1 said
10:47 AM Mar 4, 2021
Thanks Erad, once again demonstrates why privatisation means the consumer takes it up the........ ! We pay for all the executives for all the different power companies and all their associated head office costs
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:15 AM Mar 4, 2021
Thanks erad.
With the bidding system, the coal fired, diesel fired and the gas fired all have minimum prices that they can sell at because of the materials that they have to mine or buy and consume to generate power. The renewables of solar, wind and hydro (including pumped hydro) don't have that cost. Their power has a marginal cost of about zero once the infrastructure is in place. But if they don't sell it today, they loose it (and there will be more tomorrow). So better to sell it at almost nothing than to loose it and get nothing.
So in a bidding war, they can always underbid the others.
Renewable energy has some similarities with the mobile telephone business. Once the infrastructure is in place, the marginal costs of phone calls is about zero, so calls are free after we pay for the monthly maintenance costs (and profit) to the provider.
Who would have believed that 20 years ago?
I believe that with renewables, electricity will follow a similar development path. The price we will have to pay for electricity will be mostly a monthly supply charge. The cost for usage will fall to very low levels.
Cheers,
Peter
msg said
01:22 PM Mar 4, 2021
Bit like the supply of water Peter?
My monthly water bill supply charge is so high(Thats the amount that is charged before I use one drop of water) I could not use enough water to make a material difference to my overall bill.
Is that how it works?
HunnyBunny said
01:24 PM Mar 4, 2021
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
HunnyBunny wrote:
I personally believe that it's all part of a natural cycle. The Sahara was once a rain forest, how long have we known it as it is today? The planet will look after itself, if it gets too dry, it will flood, hence the rising oceans. Then it will freeze, another ice- age perhaps? Long after we have left our tiny footprint on the planet, it will survive!
I suppose you could think that human influence on the environment as being "natural" but the effect is much faster than all other "natural" changes. On previous occasions the flora and fauna have had time to evolve to adapt to the changes, but not to the rapid change that we are causing. There something like 70% less wild animals on earth than there was in the 70's.
We have a very major footprint on the planet. The combined weight of humans and our domestic animals outweighs all other wild animals. Yes. The planet will survive long after we have caused one of the biggest extinctions on this planet and caused the collapse of civilisation, but do we really want to be the cause of that when we're, apparently, intelligent enough to prevent it?
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Tuesday 2nd of March 2021 04:37:57 PM
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Tuesday 2nd of March 2021 04:44:59 PM
The only way to stop this from happening would be to stop breeding. We can't continue as we are & not impact the wild life, I am also saddened by what man is doing to this planet, however I don't believe that is why our climate is changing.
The o
Recoup said
01:45 PM Mar 4, 2021
HunnyBunny wrote:
The only way to stop this from happening would be to stop breeding.
Bill Gates will sort this out .
Buzz Lightbulb said
02:46 PM Mar 4, 2021
HunnyBunny wrote:
The only way to stop this from happening would be to stop breeding. We can't continue as we are & not impact the wild life, I am also saddened by what man is doing to this planet, however I don't believe that is why our climate is changing.
The o
Facts:
We've know, due to experiments conducted in the 1850's, that increasing CO2 causes the greenhouse effect. That is, in a closed system (such as, the earth or a greenhouse) the temperature rises when the percentage of CO2 rises.
Burning fossil fuels creates CO2 which has vastly increased since the start of the industrial revolution.
The parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphere was about 278 ppm in the 1800's. It's now over 400 ppm. This has increased the global temperature due to the greenhouse affect.
What part don't you believe?
Recoup said
03:34 PM Mar 4, 2021
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
HunnyBunny wrote:
The only way to stop this from happening would be to stop breeding. We can't continue as we are & not impact the wild life, I am also saddened by what man is doing to this planet, however I don't believe that is why our climate is changing.
The o
Facts:
We've know, due to experiments conducted in the 1850's, that increasing CO2 causes the greenhouse effect. That is, in a closed system (such as, the earth or a greenhouse) the temperature rises when the percentage of CO2 rises.
Burning fossil fuels creates CO2 which has vastly increased since the start of the industrial revolution.
The parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphere was about 278 ppm in the 1800's. It's now over 400 ppm. This has increased the global temperature due to the greenhouse affect.
What part don't you believe?
10.000 years ago sea level rose and it stoped Aborigines from crossing Bass Strait , to much fossil fuel burning !
erad said
03:36 PM Mar 4, 2021
Peter n Margaret: The bidding prices mean not very much at all. In fact, the coal fired generators will be zero price to get (stay) on line after hours. That way, they get to keep their generators going all the time, yet get paid whatever the going rate is at the time. This is where schemes such as Snowy 2.0 will win, because they can take all that generation and pump the water in off-peak times. In thirty years time, it will be the massively over-invested solar stations which will be in the same boat, except the glut of power will be during the day. No problems for pumped storage - they can take power any time from anywhere.
A very big plus for pumped storage (sorry - I still call it that, but nowadays it is pumped hydro) is that they can use the hydro to refine the power factor on the grid. They can adjust the generation so that the overall factor is close to unity, thereby minimising transmission losses. They can also provide spinning reserve to instantaneously cover the loss of a generator or transmission line elsewhere. When pumping, the controls can automatically drop the pumps off the grid if there is a major disturbance. This way, if you have, say, 500 MW on line pumping and a transmission line way away drops out, the grid frequency will fall because there is insufficient generation available. Well, the pump controls can detect that and if the frequency falls below a certain level, the pump will drop off the grid and Voila - you will have another 500 MW available - instantly.
Buzz Lightbulb: There is no doubt that the levels of CO2 have increased in the atmosphere over the last 200 years, and in particular, in recent years the rate is increasing faster. This causes greenhouse effects which can cause sea levels to rise or fall, depending on the extent of solar shielding the greenhouse gases can cause. If there is too much gases in the air, you can get global cooling instead of heating. If you look at historical records, sea levels have been found to have risen and fallen hundreds of metres, and this was well before we started pumping greenhouse gases into the air. The amount of water on earth is constant - it can be stored as ice in the polar regions (the sea levels will fall) or can be released into the oceans (sea levels will rise). Evaporation from the oceans gets into the clouds and then fall as snow or rain over land and the rivers then flow towards eh sea again. This is fuel for the Hydro stations.
So there is no doubt that CO2 levels have fluctuated wildly in previous eons. What is in doubt is the extent of man made contributions to the cyclic variations these days. No one knows what extent it will be, but a lot of people are making lots of money from the hysteria associated with the changes. My view - as long as someone is building Hydro stations, then all is good. Hydro stations are very expensive to build, and water is scarce in Australia, so let's make the most of what we have.
Brodie Allen said
03:42 PM Mar 4, 2021
Recoup wrote:
HunnyBunny wrote:
The only way to stop this from happening would be to stop breeding.
Bill Gates will sort this out .
You won't have to worry too much soon - men's sperm count currently is only half
that of their grandfather's due to the proliferation of endocrine-disrupting chemicals.
see where they come from!!
Here's a link to an interesting short discussion on the subject:
The only way to stop this from happening would be to stop breeding. We can't continue as we are & not impact the wild life, I am also saddened by what man is doing to this planet, however I don't believe that is why our climate is changing.
The o
Facts:
We've know, due to experiments conducted in the 1850's, that increasing CO2 causes the greenhouse effect. That is, in a closed system (such as, the earth or a greenhouse) the temperature rises when the percentage of CO2 rises.
Burning fossil fuels creates CO2 which has vastly increased since the start of the industrial revolution.
The parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphere was about 278 ppm in the 1800's. It's now over 400 ppm. This has increased the global temperature due to the greenhouse affect.
What part don't you believe?
Try not to get too excited Buzz, any half decent volcanic eruption ejects far more harmful gasses (and huge clouds that cut sunlight off for long periods not to mention thousands of small to very large boulders) into the upper atmosphere than the last 200 years of our industrial revolution in one hit. Did you know that the area we now call Yellowstone National Park has been rising in elevation since way back and historically blows it's top every 600,000 years. The last time it did that the earth had a long ice age period, can't remember how long that lasted but it doesn't really matter because it's been 630,000 years now since the last one...mankind really is a puny beast :)
-- Edited by peter67 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 07:26:25 PM
-- Edited by peter67 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 07:28:04 PM
Brodie Allen said
03:07 PM Mar 5, 2021
Carbon Dioxide isn't all bad - "Greening of the Planet"
I thought the climate changes every day...it does where I live!
No. You are confusing "climate" with "weather".
Cheers,
Peter
Actually they are the same thing! The only difference is the length of it..
The difference between weather and climate is a measure of time. Weather is what conditions of the atmosphere are over a short period of time, and climate is how the atmosphere "behaves" over relatively long periods of time
Buzz Lightbulb said
03:20 PM Mar 6, 2021
Recoup wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
HunnyBunny wrote:
The only way to stop this from happening would be to stop breeding. We can't continue as we are & not impact the wild life, I am also saddened by what man is doing to this planet, however I don't believe that is why our climate is changing.
The o
Facts:
We've know, due to experiments conducted in the 1850's, that increasing CO2 causes the greenhouse effect. That is, in a closed system (such as, the earth or a greenhouse) the temperature rises when the percentage of CO2 rises.
Burning fossil fuels creates CO2 which has vastly increased since the start of the industrial revolution.
The parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphere was about 278 ppm in the 1800's. It's now over 400 ppm. This has increased the global temperature due to the greenhouse affect.
What part don't you believe?
10.000 years ago sea level rose and it stoped Aborigines from crossing Bass Strait , to much fossil fuel burning !
The natural ice age period is roughly every 12,000 intermittent with interglacial periods due to the tilt of the earth's accords, orbit and inflame of other planets. What you are referring to was obviously not due to fossil fuel burning.
The current very sudden rise (200 years not 10's of thousand years) in temperature is mostly due to the burning of fossil fuels by humans. This sudden affect is why we are causing the mass extinction.
Buzz Lightbulb said
03:38 PM Mar 6, 2021
erad wrote:
Buzz Lightbulb: There is no doubt that the levels of CO2 have increased in the atmosphere over the last 200 years, and in particular, in recent years the rate is increasing faster. This causes greenhouse effects which can cause sea levels to rise or fall, depending on the extent of solar shielding the greenhouse gases can cause.
If there is too much gases in the air, you can get global cooling instead of heating.
--
Not if it's greenhouse gases such as CO2, NOx, methane, etcetera.
If you look at historical records, sea levels have been found to have risen and fallen hundreds of metres, and this was well before we started pumping greenhouse gases into the air.
This is over 10's of thousands of years not a couple of hundred. That is why humans are causing rapid climate change and hence this mass extinction.
So there is no doubt that CO2 levels have fluctuated wildly in previous eons. What is in doubt is the extent of man made contributions to the cyclic variations these days.
Only the climate change deniers doubt the science and the effect of human contribution.
No one knows what extent it will be, but a lot of people are making lots of money from the hysteria associated with the changes.
The majority of climate scientists are very certain that the temperature will rise due to the burning of fossil fuels.
My view - as long as someone is building Hydro stations, then all is good. Hydro stations are very expensive to build, and water is scarce in Australia, so let's make the most of what we have.
I'm all for the hydro 2.0 or any other renewable energy sustenance that reduces the use of fossil fuels that will reduce climate change.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Saturday 6th of March 2021 04:34:29 PM
Buzz Lightbulb said
03:45 PM Mar 6, 2021
peter67 wrote:
Try not to get too excited Buzz, any half decent volcanic eruption ejects far more harmful gasses (and huge clouds that cut sunlight off for long periods not to mention thousands of small to very large boulders) into the upper atmosphere than the last 200 years of our industrial revolution in one hit.
That's usually a different type of dad and causes cooling off the climate. The CO2 emissions by humans causes greenhouse affect.
Did you know that the area we now call Yellowstone National Park has been rising in elevation since way back and historically blows it's top every 600,000 years.
Yes. It's called a caldera or super volcano. There's an inactive one in Victoria.
The last time it did that the earth had a long ice age period, can't remember how long that lasted but it doesn't really matter because it's been 630,000 years now since the last one...mankind really is a puny beast :)
So we should just destroy the environment even though we're supposed to be intelligent?
-- Edited by peter67 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 07:26:25 PM
-- Edited by peter67 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 07:28:04 PM
Buzz Lightbulb said
05:22 PM Mar 6, 2021
These myths that some of you are proposing have already been debunked. I really couldn't be bothered to find all the articles that debunked these myths because I don't think some of you would change your mind. But here's just a little bit:
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Saturday 6th of March 2021 05:40:57 PM
Brodie Allen said
09:22 PM Mar 6, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Thanks erad. With the bidding system, the coal fired, diesel fired and the gas fired all have minimum prices that they can sell at because of the materials that they have to mine or buy and consume to generate power. The renewables of solar, wind and hydro (including pumped hydro) don't have that cost. Their power has a marginal cost of about zero once the infrastructure is in place. But if they don't sell it today, they loose it (and there will be more tomorrow). So better to sell it at almost nothing than to loose it and get nothing. So in a bidding war, they can always underbid the others.
Renewable energy has some similarities with the mobile telephone business. Once the infrastructure is in place, the marginal costs of phone calls is about zero, so calls are free after we pay for the monthly maintenance costs (and profit) to the provider. Who would have believed that 20 years ago? I believe that with renewables, electricity will follow a similar development path. The price we will have to pay for electricity will be mostly a monthly supply charge. The cost for usage will fall to very low levels. Cheers, Peter
So much for pumped hydro!
Everywhere I look it's all about following the money, not the efficiency of the installs.
what is the point of australia addressing climate change if India and China do nothing.
What's the point in picking up rubbish at a free camp if people ee are going to throw more there?
That arguement is just negative. Yes, India and China have more than a long way to go along with third world countries however it shouldn't result in...inaction.
I'm sorry if I offend anyone but in a decade or two many members here won't be here. The world will be left to those that do have concerns and you will be a distant memory.
I'd believe most scientists over those that are just stubborn and don't like being told anything.
Tony
Plain Truth said
08:18 PM Mar 7, 2021
This is worth watching about renewable energy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x7UgKfSug0
Wizardofoz said
02:47 PM Mar 9, 2021
If we never bite the bullet and address the main reason for destruction of the planet, HUMAN BEINGS, life on earth will cease earlier than anticipated.
Nobody and I mean nobody, addresses POPULATION GROWTH (the actual problem) and plans to restrict and lower the growth of it, until then, we can do all we like about clean energy, fossil fuels & whatever, that won't solve the problem.
-- Edited by Wizardofoz on Tuesday 9th of March 2021 02:50:18 PM
-- Edited by Wizardofoz on Tuesday 9th of March 2021 02:51:07 PM
Buzz Lightbulb said
03:07 PM Mar 9, 2021
China tried for a while with a one child policy. But we really do need to reduce the population.
At least he acknowledges that there is a serious problem.
Cheers,
Peter
Aussie1 said
03:56 PM Mar 9, 2021
For goodness sake folks, cheer up. I swear some on here spend more time talking "doom and gloom" than they do enjoying caravanning. If you are content with all that misery, at least spread your thoughts to all the areas where mankind is under threat. Or at least enroll in "Smile School" for a few terms :):)
Probably because of climate change!
"The method behind the madness, was to use low cost (night time) electricity, to pump water from the lake below, to the man made lake above
This electricity generated is used to fill in gaps on the grid, when it is required
It was around one minute, to get up to full capacity, (just open the valves and stand back)
It had paid for itself within the first few years of operation
Knowing that such a power station does work, I am confident that the Snowy 2, will also work
As Peter has already said, the cost of pumping the water uphill, has no meaning, if the power used is either excess power, or power from renewables"
This is the principle behind pumper storage. The cost of electricity varies according to the time of day and the availablity of generation. With a coal fired power station, it takes up to 24 hours to get it up to full power. The demand on the power grid varies over the day - from low demand late at night, early in the morning to very high at peak times when people are travelling home, cooking meals, watching TV etc, and also when Industry firs up or closes down for the day. The difference between maximum and minimum demand varies for each state, but t here is a 'base load' and a 'cyclic load'.
Base loads are currently supplied by the large coal fired stations. They run 24 /7 and they try to keep their loading at or near the point of maximum efficiency. Peak loads are supplied by gas turbines (which can be fired up within minutes), diesel generators or Hydro power. Typically, a combination of gas turbines, diesels and hydro is used. In coming years, Solar power and Wind power will gradually replace the coal fired stations on the grid.
All the power is fed into the grid, which is controlled by the National Energy Marketing Authority. Each generator bids to get his plant on line. The cheapest bidder gets his plant on line. Example - Bidder A has 2500 MW of generation available, so he bids a cheap price - say $20 per MWh. Bidder B has the same capacity but he wants $30 per MWh. Bidder C has peak load capacity and offers 200 MW at $100 per MWh. Now, the load varies and at 2:00 am, it falls to 4500 MW. Bidder A has his plant (2500 MW) so he is on line. Bidder B has his plant available as well, but he only get to supply 2000 MW. Bidder C misses out completely. Pricing is complicated however because there is no way to define who gets A's power and who gets B's power, so the price charged to the consumer is the higher price is $30 per MWh. Now, it the demand rises to say 5100 MW, Bidder C gets his plant on line as well, although only 100 MW from him. Now, the price to the consumer goes up to $100 per MWH.
The situation is even more complicated because each Bidder has to guarantee that the power offered will be there when he said it would be. There are heavy penalties for failing to provide the power when required. So companies offer the guarantee supply. If one of Bidder A's generators has a bearing fault or whatever, he faces a huge penalty, so he insures with other suppliers to cover his generation in the event of a transmission line fault or whatever. Typically, there has to be sufficient excess generation available to cover the loss of the largest generator on the grid. Currently, this is 660 MW. So, whatever the load on the grid, they always have an extra 660 MW in reserve, waiting for a machine malfunction. This is where Hydro can come into its own. Dinorwig in Wales is a prime example. As has been said above, it was built in an old slate quarry, and has 6 machines of 300 MW each. If they are prepared, they can have 1500 MW on line within 10 seconds. As said above, the station has been operational since 1982, and within 5 years of operation it paid for itself by simply not having to have the extra thermal generation waiting for the inevitable failure of a piece of plant. Snowy 2.0 will do the same function.
Ideally, Nuclear power should replace the coal fired power, but this is unlikely to happen in Australia. So we need some form of energy storage to cover the periods when Solar or wind power are not available. Grid batteries simply do not have enough capacity, nor will they ever have enough. Their main function is to stabilise the grid when a generator fails. They prop up the grid until a gas turbine can be fired up and get up to power. This is where Hydro schemes shine. Except Australia simply doesn't have enough water to fully back up the electricity grid, so the next step is Pumped storage ie Snowy 2.0 or the equivalent. But Hydro schemes are expensive, and they require about 10 years from go to on-line. So, planning is required - NOW - or in 5 years time teh grids will collapse because of lack of generation facilities.
End of rant....
erad .. Thanks for taking the time to post your comprehensive explanation.
With the bidding system, the coal fired, diesel fired and the gas fired all have minimum prices that they can sell at because of the materials that they have to mine or buy and consume to generate power. The renewables of solar, wind and hydro (including pumped hydro) don't have that cost. Their power has a marginal cost of about zero once the infrastructure is in place. But if they don't sell it today, they loose it (and there will be more tomorrow). So better to sell it at almost nothing than to loose it and get nothing.
So in a bidding war, they can always underbid the others.
Renewable energy has some similarities with the mobile telephone business. Once the infrastructure is in place, the marginal costs of phone calls is about zero, so calls are free after we pay for the monthly maintenance costs (and profit) to the provider.
Who would have believed that 20 years ago?
I believe that with renewables, electricity will follow a similar development path. The price we will have to pay for electricity will be mostly a monthly supply charge. The cost for usage will fall to very low levels.
Cheers,
Peter
My monthly water bill supply charge is so high(Thats the amount that is charged before I use one drop of water) I could not use enough water to make a material difference to my overall bill.
Is that how it works?
The only way to stop this from happening would be to stop breeding. We can't continue as we are & not impact the wild life, I am also saddened by what man is doing to this planet, however I don't believe that is why our climate is changing.
The o
Facts:
We've know, due to experiments conducted in the 1850's, that increasing CO2 causes the greenhouse effect. That is, in a closed system (such as, the earth or a greenhouse) the temperature rises when the percentage of CO2 rises.
Burning fossil fuels creates CO2 which has vastly increased since the start of the industrial revolution.
The parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphere was about 278 ppm in the 1800's. It's now over 400 ppm. This has increased the global temperature due to the greenhouse affect.
What part don't you believe?
10.000 years ago sea level rose and it stoped Aborigines from crossing Bass Strait , to much fossil fuel burning !
A very big plus for pumped storage (sorry - I still call it that, but nowadays it is pumped hydro) is that they can use the hydro to refine the power factor on the grid. They can adjust the generation so that the overall factor is close to unity, thereby minimising transmission losses. They can also provide spinning reserve to instantaneously cover the loss of a generator or transmission line elsewhere. When pumping, the controls can automatically drop the pumps off the grid if there is a major disturbance. This way, if you have, say, 500 MW on line pumping and a transmission line way away drops out, the grid frequency will fall because there is insufficient generation available. Well, the pump controls can detect that and if the frequency falls below a certain level, the pump will drop off the grid and Voila - you will have another 500 MW available - instantly.
Buzz Lightbulb: There is no doubt that the levels of CO2 have increased in the atmosphere over the last 200 years, and in particular, in recent years the rate is increasing faster. This causes greenhouse effects which can cause sea levels to rise or fall, depending on the extent of solar shielding the greenhouse gases can cause. If there is too much gases in the air, you can get global cooling instead of heating. If you look at historical records, sea levels have been found to have risen and fallen hundreds of metres, and this was well before we started pumping greenhouse gases into the air. The amount of water on earth is constant - it can be stored as ice in the polar regions (the sea levels will fall) or can be released into the oceans (sea levels will rise). Evaporation from the oceans gets into the clouds and then fall as snow or rain over land and the rivers then flow towards eh sea again. This is fuel for the Hydro stations.
So there is no doubt that CO2 levels have fluctuated wildly in previous eons. What is in doubt is the extent of man made contributions to the cyclic variations these days. No one knows what extent it will be, but a lot of people are making lots of money from the hysteria associated with the changes. My view - as long as someone is building Hydro stations, then all is good. Hydro stations are very expensive to build, and water is scarce in Australia, so let's make the most of what we have.
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-03-03-sperm-counts-dropping-low-human-reproduction-impossible.html
Soon the few of us that are still fertile will have to work overtime on a piece arrangement.
Try not to get too excited Buzz, any half decent volcanic eruption ejects far more harmful gasses (and huge clouds that cut sunlight off for long periods not to mention thousands of small to very large boulders) into the upper atmosphere than the last 200 years of our industrial revolution in one hit. Did you know that the area we now call Yellowstone National Park has been rising in elevation since way back and historically blows it's top every 600,000 years. The last time it did that the earth had a long ice age period, can't remember how long that lasted but it doesn't really matter because it's been 630,000 years now since the last one...mankind really is a puny beast :)
-- Edited by peter67 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 07:26:25 PM
-- Edited by peter67 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 07:28:04 PM
Carbon Dioxide isn't all bad - "Greening of the Planet"
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-03-04-nasa-satellite-data-carbon-dioxide-greening-earth.html#
Actually they are the same thing! The only difference is the length of it..
The natural ice age period is roughly every 12,000 intermittent with interglacial periods due to the tilt of the earth's accords, orbit and inflame of other planets. What you are referring to was obviously not due to fossil fuel burning.
The current very sudden rise (200 years not 10's of thousand years) in temperature is mostly due to the burning of fossil fuels by humans. This sudden affect is why we are causing the mass extinction.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Saturday 6th of March 2021 04:34:29 PM
These myths that some of you are proposing have already been debunked. I really couldn't be bothered to find all the articles that debunked these myths because I don't think some of you would change your mind. But here's just a little bit:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11638-climate-myths-human-co2-emissions-are-too-tiny-to-matter/
https//www.newscientist.com/article/dn11652-climate-myths-carbon-dioxide-isnt-the-most-important-greenhouse-gas/#ixzz6oJJquiMl
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11650-climate-myths-global-warming-is-down-to-the-sun-not-humans/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11655-climate-myths-higher-co2-levels-will-boost-plant-growth-and-food-production
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Saturday 6th of March 2021 05:40:57 PM
So much for pumped hydro!
Everywhere I look it's all about following the money, not the efficiency of the installs.
From the Weekend Australian: (Copy and paste)
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/its-time-to-melt-the-myths-about-the-snowy-20-hydro-project/news-story/47b6c4d8ffcb02b2d02ad8490622ac42
What's the point in picking up rubbish at a free camp if people ee are going to throw more there?
That arguement is just negative. Yes, India and China have more than a long way to go along with third world countries however it shouldn't result in...inaction.
I'm sorry if I offend anyone but in a decade or two many members here won't be here. The world will be left to those that do have concerns and you will be a distant memory.
I'd believe most scientists over those that are just stubborn and don't like being told anything.
Tony
This is worth watching about renewable energy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x7UgKfSug0
If we never bite the bullet and address the main reason for destruction of the planet, HUMAN BEINGS, life on earth will cease earlier than anticipated.
Nobody and I mean nobody, addresses POPULATION GROWTH (the actual problem) and plans to restrict and lower the growth of it, until then, we can do all we like about clean energy, fossil fuels & whatever, that won't solve the problem.
-- Edited by Wizardofoz on Tuesday 9th of March 2021 02:50:18 PM
-- Edited by Wizardofoz on Tuesday 9th of March 2021 02:51:07 PM
Soilent green. I'm only joking!
Cheers,
Peter