I think you need to do a little reading Rod. The AZ used in the United Kingdom is manufactured there and used there. The AZ used here is manufactured here using their recipe. The AZ used in India is the AZ manufactured there using the AZ recipe. The Euro Union recognizes the AZ manufactured in the UK but does not recognize the AZ manufactured in India or Australia or for that matter, anywhere outside of the UK. The vaccine in the USA is not AZ as it has not been approved by the FDA. Stop lecturing everyone and have a little read.
As far as you saying what you think Clarky, that would be a blank page. As for you Professor Rod, why would I or anyone else for that matter care how you felt when I get vaccinated.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 9th of July 2021 01:51:09 PM
Dougwe said
02:08 PM Jul 9, 2021
DMaxer said
02:22 PM Jul 9, 2021
You are probably right Doug. Unfortunately I do not have any tolerance when it comes to being lectured on medical matters by some self appointed expert know it all on a caravan forum.
I think that will do me and just leave it to Professor Rod to continue his lecture to the faithful.
Mike Harding said
03:29 PM Jul 9, 2021
Dmaxer:
I have zero doubt the reason the AZ vaccine manufactured in Australia in not approved by the EU is *purely* because the Australian labs have not, yet, been approved to manufacture this *specific* product. Such an approval process for quality labs in Western countries is generally a formality nevertheless it will take a couple of years and, in this case, we did not have that time to spare. I have experience in such areas.
I suggest you run a more persuasive line of argument.
Dick0 said
04:32 PM Jul 9, 2021
Bless you Preacher Rob.
Amen.
Ger08 said
02:08 AM Jul 10, 2021
Right now it is essential that everyone gets vaccinated as soon as they can. There will always be those people that for whatever reason dont want to get vaccinated, thats fine theyve probably done their research on Google and believe they are the font of all information re the various vaccines. Its very clear that travel and other activities may well be restricted to those people who are vaccinated- its already happening in Europe and parts of Asia. Weve had the AZ and know a large number of people that have had it and to be honest Im greatly relieved that were protected from the worst of Covid.
Australias leading doctors group has warned that hospitals across the country are too full to handle ongoing cases of coronavirus even at levels similar to the seasonal flu.
----
Dick0 said
03:22 PM Jul 10, 2021
Rob Driver wrote:
Hey Dick0
Looks like you found yourself in that bag of peanuts.
Actually, it appears you may be suffering from visual impairment, perhaps another vaccine side effect.
Also, you may have been too eager to patronize.
I was referring to a bag of "popcorn". lol
Dick0 said
03:37 PM Jul 10, 2021
Rob Driver wrote:
DMaxer wrote:
Has it occurred to you Rob that the discussion I have been involved in is all about whether to have AZ or not, it has not been about whether vaccines are good or bad. You have been so busy lecturing everyone about your crusade you have completely missed the point. I took advice months ago and on that advice will wait for the alternative. Perhaps you should take your own advice and read the article you posted. It says nothing about AZ being the vaccination of choice, just that vaccination is required. The USA has not approved AZ and it not used there. They gave theirs away. Instead of lecturing us why don't you contact the FDA in the USA and give them the benefit of your great knowledge. I am sure they could do with a good laugh.
DMaxer, you have neglected to report on the vaccine being used in England is actually the AZ variety. They are having the same success as the US at the moment. We all could trawl the internet and find for and againsts any argument. It was recently that I came across an article from the Us that sounded very similar with their observation on Pfizer uptake as we have in Australia with the uptake on the AZ.
Lets get facts out there when the reason we in Aus are getting Pfizer in October is because we paid for it back when it was anticipated to be supplied and then our supply was held back. This order is available to us in October as it has been reported.
It is easy to come on to a preaching platform and neglect to mention certain facts because it may not support a personal agenda.
This forum as are most other social media sites, are a platform for preaching. It is the nature of the beast.
Amongst your several posts there has been many others who are complete anti vaxxers. These folk are blaming governments and a whole plethora of other rumours and innuendos. Even you and I have been critical of the roll out and some other aspects and I certainly don't think the govt has handled it that well at times.
I have tried to respect your very personal views but in the above post you singled me out as a preacher when at,least one other member has repeated his views of getting vaccinated a number of times.
Carry on DMaxer maybe when the Pfizer is available as an option or even if it becomes the only option available, then I will be glad if you line up for the jab to help with the control of the pandemic.
I think we really do get it, and I can sum it up in one sentence...
"THOSE VACCINATED ARE NOT IMMUNE FROM THOSE VACCINATED".
Rob Driver said
07:20 PM Jul 10, 2021
Dick0 wrote:
Rob Driver wrote:
DMaxer wrote:
Has it occurred to you Rob that the discussion I have been involved in is all about whether to have AZ or not, it has not been about whether vaccines are good or bad. You have been so busy lecturing everyone about your crusade you have completely missed the point. I took advice months ago and on that advice will wait for the alternative. Perhaps you should take your own advice and read the article you posted. It says nothing about AZ being the vaccination of choice, just that vaccination is required. The USA has not approved AZ and it not used there. They gave theirs away. Instead of lecturing us why don't you contact the FDA in the USA and give them the benefit of your great knowledge. I am sure they could do with a good laugh.
DMaxer, you have neglected to report on the vaccine being used in England is actually the AZ variety. They are having the same success as the US at the moment. We all could trawl the internet and find for and againsts any argument. It was recently that I came across an article from the Us that sounded very similar with their observation on Pfizer uptake as we have in Australia with the uptake on the AZ.
Lets get facts out there when the reason we in Aus are getting Pfizer in October is because we paid for it back when it was anticipated to be supplied and then our supply was held back. This order is available to us in October as it has been reported.
It is easy to come on to a preaching platform and neglect to mention certain facts because it may not support a personal agenda.
This forum as are most other social media sites, are a platform for preaching. It is the nature of the beast.
Amongst your several posts there has been many others who are complete anti vaxxers. These folk are blaming governments and a whole plethora of other rumours and innuendos. Even you and I have been critical of the roll out and some other aspects and I certainly don't think the govt has handled it that well at times.
I have tried to respect your very personal views but in the above post you singled me out as a preacher when at,least one other member has repeated his views of getting vaccinated a number of times.
Carry on DMaxer maybe when the Pfizer is available as an option or even if it becomes the only option available, then I will be glad if you line up for the jab to help with the control of the pandemic.
I think we really do get it, and I can sum it up in one sentence...
"THOSE VACCINATED ARE NOT IMMUNE FROM THOSE VACCINATED".
DickZero, Luv it.Does he have a brother named Dick2? Cheers
DMaxer said
03:06 PM Jul 11, 2021
Is that also your thought as to why FDA in the USA has not approved it either, Mike? If that is the case, then why didn't they give that reason when pressed by the Indian Government as to why their brand of AZ had been rejected? Is it also the case in relation to Germany. Sweden, Italy, France, Spain, Denmark, Norway and The Netherlands, just to mention a few, just a bit of paperwork that needs fixing up?
Plain Truth said
03:45 PM Jul 11, 2021
Vaccines are not compulsory in Australia.If they are not breaking the rules,why do you judge others.
As it has been said on other posts,when they don't like the rules.LIVE and LET Live say I and don't judge others.would be nice if they could live by their own words.
If the Astra is so safe, why does the Federal government want people to sign a waiver for this caccine ? and being over 60 does not stop you from getting blood clots from the Astra vaccine. It just makes it easier to blame deaths and complications on their age. Older people are more at risk from covid and should be able to receive the Pfizer vacinne which will give them far more protection than Astra and it it far safer
dorian said
04:29 AM Jul 12, 2021
Plain Truth wrote:
Vaccines are not compulsory in Australia.If they are not breaking the rules,why do you judge others.
Selfish people like you are a danger to society. Just because something is not illegal doesn't make it right. For example, an unfaithful spouse is not "breaking the rules", but s/he is still a reprehensible person.
dorian said
04:55 AM Jul 12, 2021
Bush walker wrote:
Older people are more at risk from covid and should be able to receive the Pfizer vacinne which will give them far more protection than Astra and it it far safer
It looks like the Australian government were rude to Pfizer, and that may be why we haven't had timely access to Pfizer jabs:
In late June, senior Australian business figures based in the United States had discussed making contact with the vaccine manufacturer Pfizer to see whether it was possible for Australia to get earlier access to larger supplies of the Pfizer vaccine as the COVID-19 Delta variant emerged in Australia.
This came amid continuing reports that Australia had bungled its negotiations with the company in talks going back to June and July last year which displayed a "rude, dismissive and penny pinching" approach, according to one source.
Australia eventually signed a deal for just 10 million Pfizer doses in November 2020, four months behind other countries.
Health Department officials have flatly denied many of these reports, but the businessmen in the US who had connections with Pfizer were hearing even more graphic accounts of how badly offended the company had been by the response to its early approaches to Australia last year when it offered access to what is now to be a crucial part of our vaccine coverage.
Mike Harding said
07:41 AM Jul 12, 2021
DMaxer wrote:
Is that also your thought as to why FDA in the USA has not approved it either, Mike? If that is the case, then why didn't they give that reason when pressed by the Indian Government as to why their brand of AZ had been rejected? Is it also the case in relation to Germany. Sweden, Italy, France, Spain, Denmark, Norway and The Netherlands, just to mention a few, just a bit of paperwork that needs fixing up?
The USA contributed US$1B to the development of AZ. I believe AZ have not yet applied for "emergency use" in the USA and the FDA process is lengthy and, as the USA, has its own domestic vaccines the need is not pressing. Also the USA has a tendency to use required approvals on imports as an informal protection of domestic products. Pifzer at al did not develop a covid vaccine because of the goodness of their hearts.
The manufacturing plant in India is not approved by either the USA or EU - I don't know why, maybe they have not applied? Such approvals cost millions.
The list of European countries your site is incorrect in regard to AZ use also they operate under EU law and if AZ is approved by the EU then, ipso facto, it is approved in all European countries.
Dmaxer: as I mentioned before *one quarter* of the population of the *planet* has been vaccinated against covid - when will you deem it safe? When it's the entire planet minus one perhaps? Your stance is not logical. And with the way NSW is going you may wish to reconsider....
DMaxer said
10:36 AM Jul 12, 2021
Thanks for your answer Mike. I hope it is not too cold down there in the high country, it certainly is up here on the north coast of NSW.
In response to your thoughtful answer, I have held the view that the AZ manufactured here in Australia is not afforded the same recognition as the AZ used in Europe which is the Oxford variety. Although we use the same recipe, it is not given the same regard. Anyway, as I am always seeking information perhaps you might answer me these two quick questions if you would be so kind.
1. Given that the AZ vaccine is Australia is in a trial period until at least 2023 and that vaccines usually have a test period of about ten years, did the people who vaccinated you require you to give updates during the usual test periods. For example, usually vaccines are assessed as to the initial reaction in the first week or so, then again after maybe two to three years and then perhaps a final one after about ten years. What case plan have they given you or others that you know who have been vaccinated with AZ Aust version?
2. Given that there is total ban on release of any information in relation to the contract, payments, warnings or correspondence between the Government and AZ and that there is a total waiver of liability in relation to the Government. AZ or the medicos and a total indemnity meaning that if any side effects or adverse reactions occur you have absolutely no legal claim to compensation or damages, what are your contingency plans if someone occurs that you didn't expect or were not warned about. Will you happily accept that position as a risk you knowingly took in your participation in the esprit de corps?
Keep well and as always thanks for your thoughtful responses.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Monday 12th of July 2021 10:37:29 AM
-- Edited by DMaxer on Monday 12th of July 2021 02:33:11 PM
Are We Lost said
12:44 PM Jul 12, 2021
Surely all this discussion could be simplified.
At some point, if not right now in NSW, the number of cases will explode. Maybe this outbreak will be brought under control, but at some point that explosion in numbers will happen and lockdowns will be a thing of the past.
So at that point, with people in the community dropping like flies, which has the bigger risk? Covid or the vaccine? How would you feel if your refusal to accept the vaccine was taken as good advice by an elderly loved one, who then died because of it?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Monday 12th of July 2021 12:48:13 PM
dorian said
12:50 PM Jul 12, 2021
DMaxer wrote:
Thanks for your answer Mike. I hope it is not too cold down there in the high country, it certainly is up here on the north coast of NSW.
In response to your thoughtful answer, I have held the view that the AZ manufactured here in Australia is not afforded the same recognition as the AZ used in Europe which is the Oxford variety. Although we use the same recipe, it is not given the same regard. Anyway, as I am always seeking information perhaps you might answer me these two quick questions if you would be so kind.
1. Given that the AZ vaccine is Australia is in a trial period until at least 2023 and that vaccines usually have a test period of about ten years, did the people who vaccinated you require you to give updates during the usual test periods. For example, usually vaccines are assessed as to the initial reaction in the first week or so, then again after maybe two to three years and then perhaps a final one after about ten years. What case plan have they given you or others that you know who have been vaccinated with AZ Aust version?
2. Given that there is total ban on release of any information in relation to the contract, payments, warnings or correspondence between the Government and AZ and that there is a total waiver of liability in relation to the Government. AZ or the medicos and a total indemnity meaning that if any side effects or adverse reactions occur you have absolutely no legal claim to compensation or damages, what are your contingency plans if someone occurs that you didn't expect or were not warned about. Will you happily accept that position as a risk you knowingly took in your participation in the esprit de corps?
Keep well and as always thanks for your thoughtful responses.
If we had to wait for a vaccine to be approved and deployed in the same way that we have to wait years for a legal case to reach a conclusion, then we would all be dead. Stop thinking like a cloistered lawyer, look outside your window, and take heed of what is happening in the real world.
DMaxer said
02:23 PM Jul 12, 2021
A very well thought out and measured reply to a question that was not asked of you Dorian.
Clarky 1 said
03:31 PM Jul 12, 2021
DMaxer wrote:
A very well thought out and measured reply to a question that was not asked of you Dorian.
Well DMaxer,
If the above is the case then how about show the title that makes you owner of the topic. Public Forum and all that
So delaying your Covid vax for 10 years is the practical way to go in your view.
I dont think you have any intention in getting the vaccination.
You do know the the Pfizer also has similar side effects for many and these effects are quite often more severe after the second shot but that fact wont suit your argument about the AZ vaccine. For my research I will stick with the advice of medical authorities in Australia as opposed to the FDA.
Before you come back at me with a load of crap pull ya head in!!
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Monday 12th of July 2021 03:32:40 PM
DMaxer said
04:37 PM Jul 12, 2021
Thank you for your kind words and intelligent reply Clarky.
Dick0 said
06:26 PM Jul 12, 2021
DMaxer wrote:
Thank you for your kind words and intelligent reply Clarky.
Yes, the abuse and patronizing of those not agreeing with the vaccinated back slappers here is, of course, just a side effect of the jab.
It seems to get worse with the second jab.
Clarky 1 said
06:53 PM Jul 12, 2021
Yes. Thank you for your idiotic reply and your display of the total lack of how any vaccine works, DickZero. (thanks Rob)
DickZero, you took no notice of the meme above.
I will bet you have no intention of getting a Covid vaccine either.
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Monday 12th of July 2021 07:01:09 PM
Dougwe said
09:27 PM Jul 12, 2021
Struth! Here I have been thinking all these years of being a member of this forum it was all about caravanning and travelling this great land called OZ. Ya learn something everyday.
I think Cindy needs to get a dirty big padlock out and lock this thread as it's just a slinging match.
Craig1 said
09:38 PM Jul 12, 2021
Thanks Chief, me three
Dougwe said
09:41 PM Jul 12, 2021
Here you go Cindy, save you looking for one
dorian said
05:15 AM Jul 13, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
If you're concerned about side effects from the AZ jab then may I suggest you do not stand outside for any length of time as your chances of being struck by lightning are greater.
I guess that depends on how stupid (?) you are.
Lightning strikes in India kill 38 people in 24 hours, including 11 taking selfies:
The majority of the deaths occurred in the western state of Rajasthan, where 11 people died after being struck by lightning as they posed for photographs near a watchtower ...
Rob Driver said
07:41 AM Jul 13, 2021
Dougwe wrote:
Here you go Cindy, save you looking for one
Hi Doug,
I think this topic started out with sensible comments from both sides.
As with many other topics on here it is when people post when they can offer no support with facts and their only argument is to ridicule those with an opposing views.
It is a shame that some on here blurt out information but never provide any links to facts. Others comments are just bordering on stupidity.
Constructive debate is healthy. The singling out of one members comments for ridicule while making no mention of others is not so healthy.
I think you need to do a little reading Rod. The AZ used in the United Kingdom is manufactured there and used there. The AZ used here is manufactured here using their recipe. The AZ used in India is the AZ manufactured there using the AZ recipe. The Euro Union recognizes the AZ manufactured in the UK but does not recognize the AZ manufactured in India or Australia or for that matter, anywhere outside of the UK. The vaccine in the USA is not AZ as it has not been approved by the FDA. Stop lecturing everyone and have a little read.
As far as you saying what you think Clarky, that would be a blank page. As for you Professor Rod, why would I or anyone else for that matter care how you felt when I get vaccinated.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 9th of July 2021 01:51:09 PM
You are probably right Doug. Unfortunately I do not have any tolerance when it comes to being lectured on medical matters by some self appointed expert know it all on a caravan forum.
I think that will do me and just leave it to Professor Rod to continue his lecture to the faithful.
Dmaxer:
I have zero doubt the reason the AZ vaccine manufactured in Australia in not approved by the EU is *purely* because the Australian labs have not, yet, been approved to manufacture this *specific* product. Such an approval process for quality labs in Western countries is generally a formality nevertheless it will take a couple of years and, in this case, we did not have that time to spare. I have experience in such areas.
I suggest you run a more persuasive line of argument.
Bless you Preacher Rob.
Amen.
Article in The Age
----
Australias leading doctors group has warned that hospitals across the country are too full to handle ongoing cases of coronavirus even at levels similar to the seasonal flu.
----
Hey Dick0
I think we really do get it, and I can sum it up in one sentence...
"THOSE VACCINATED ARE NOT IMMUNE FROM THOSE VACCINATED".
Hey DickZero
Some good advice for you mate
DickZero, Luv it.Does he have a brother named Dick2? Cheers
Is that also your thought as to why FDA in the USA has not approved it either, Mike? If that is the case, then why didn't they give that reason when pressed by the Indian Government as to why their brand of AZ had been rejected? Is it also the case in relation to Germany. Sweden, Italy, France, Spain, Denmark, Norway and The Netherlands, just to mention a few, just a bit of paperwork that needs fixing up?
Vaccines are not compulsory in Australia.If they are not breaking the rules,why do you judge others.
As it has been said on other posts,when they don't like the rules.LIVE and LET Live say I and don't judge others.would be nice if they could live by their own words.
If the Astra is so safe, why does the Federal government want people to sign a waiver for this caccine ? and being over 60 does not stop you from getting blood clots from the Astra vaccine. It just makes it easier to blame deaths and complications on their age. Older people are more at risk from covid and should be able to receive the Pfizer vacinne which will give them far more protection than Astra and it it far safer
Selfish people like you are a danger to society. Just because something is not illegal doesn't make it right. For example, an unfaithful spouse is not "breaking the rules", but s/he is still a reprehensible person.
It looks like the Australian government were rude to Pfizer, and that may be why we haven't had timely access to Pfizer jabs:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-11/kevin-rudd-australia-covid-pfizer-vaccine-supply-senior-execs/100284902
In late June, senior Australian business figures based in the United States had discussed making contact with the vaccine manufacturer Pfizer to see whether it was possible for Australia to get earlier access to larger supplies of the Pfizer vaccine as the COVID-19 Delta variant emerged in Australia.
This came amid continuing reports that Australia had bungled its negotiations with the company in talks going back to June and July last year which displayed a "rude, dismissive and penny pinching" approach, according to one source.
Australia eventually signed a deal for just 10 million Pfizer doses in November 2020, four months behind other countries.
Health Department officials have flatly denied many of these reports, but the businessmen in the US who had connections with Pfizer were hearing even more graphic accounts of how badly offended the company had been by the response to its early approaches to Australia last year when it offered access to what is now to be a crucial part of our vaccine coverage.
The USA contributed US$1B to the development of AZ. I believe AZ have not yet applied for "emergency use" in the USA and the FDA process is lengthy and, as the USA, has its own domestic vaccines the need is not pressing. Also the USA has a tendency to use required approvals on imports as an informal protection of domestic products. Pifzer at al did not develop a covid vaccine because of the goodness of their hearts.
The manufacturing plant in India is not approved by either the USA or EU - I don't know why, maybe they have not applied? Such approvals cost millions.
The list of European countries your site is incorrect in regard to AZ use also they operate under EU law and if AZ is approved by the EU then, ipso facto, it is approved in all European countries.
Dmaxer: as I mentioned before *one quarter* of the population of the *planet* has been vaccinated against covid - when will you deem it safe? When it's the entire planet minus one perhaps? Your stance is not logical. And with the way NSW is going you may wish to reconsider....
Thanks for your answer Mike. I hope it is not too cold down there in the high country, it certainly is up here on the north coast of NSW.
In response to your thoughtful answer, I have held the view that the AZ manufactured here in Australia is not afforded the same recognition as the AZ used in Europe which is the Oxford variety. Although we use the same recipe, it is not given the same regard. Anyway, as I am always seeking information perhaps you might answer me these two quick questions if you would be so kind.
1. Given that the AZ vaccine is Australia is in a trial period until at least 2023 and that vaccines usually have a test period of about ten years, did the people who vaccinated you require you to give updates during the usual test periods. For example, usually vaccines are assessed as to the initial reaction in the first week or so, then again after maybe two to three years and then perhaps a final one after about ten years. What case plan have they given you or others that you know who have been vaccinated with AZ Aust version?
2. Given that there is total ban on release of any information in relation to the contract, payments, warnings or correspondence between the Government and AZ and that there is a total waiver of liability in relation to the Government. AZ or the medicos and a total indemnity meaning that if any side effects or adverse reactions occur you have absolutely no legal claim to compensation or damages, what are your contingency plans if someone occurs that you didn't expect or were not warned about. Will you happily accept that position as a risk you knowingly took in your participation in the esprit de corps?
Keep well and as always thanks for your thoughtful responses.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Monday 12th of July 2021 10:37:29 AM
-- Edited by DMaxer on Monday 12th of July 2021 02:33:11 PM
Surely all this discussion could be simplified.
At some point, if not right now in NSW, the number of cases will explode. Maybe this outbreak will be brought under control, but at some point that explosion in numbers will happen and lockdowns will be a thing of the past.
So at that point, with people in the community dropping like flies, which has the bigger risk? Covid or the vaccine? How would you feel if your refusal to accept the vaccine was taken as good advice by an elderly loved one, who then died because of it?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Monday 12th of July 2021 12:48:13 PM
If we had to wait for a vaccine to be approved and deployed in the same way that we have to wait years for a legal case to reach a conclusion, then we would all be dead. Stop thinking like a cloistered lawyer, look outside your window, and take heed of what is happening in the real world.
A very well thought out and measured reply to a question that was not asked of you Dorian.
Well DMaxer,
If the above is the case then how about show the title that makes you owner of the topic. Public Forum and all that
So delaying your Covid vax for 10 years is the practical way to go in your view.
I dont think you have any intention in getting the vaccination.
You do know the the Pfizer also has similar side effects for many and these effects are quite often more severe after the second shot but that fact wont suit your argument about the AZ vaccine.
For my research I will stick with the advice of medical authorities in Australia as opposed to the FDA.
Before you come back at me with a load of crap pull ya head in!!
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Monday 12th of July 2021 03:32:40 PM
Yes, the abuse and patronizing of those not agreeing with the vaccinated back slappers here is, of course, just a side effect of the jab.
It seems to get worse with the second jab.
Yes. Thank you for your idiotic reply and your display of the total lack of how any vaccine works, DickZero.
(thanks Rob)
DickZero, you took no notice of the meme above.
I will bet you have no intention of getting a Covid vaccine either.
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Monday 12th of July 2021 07:01:09 PM
I think Cindy needs to get a dirty big padlock out and lock this thread as it's just a slinging match.
Here you go Cindy, save you looking for one
I guess that depends on how stupid (?) you are.
Lightning strikes in India kill 38 people in 24 hours, including 11 taking selfies:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-12/lightning-strikes-in-india-kill-38-people-in-24-hours-selfies/100287640
Hi Doug,
I think this topic started out with sensible comments from both sides.
As with many other topics on here it is when people post when they can offer no support with facts and their only argument is to ridicule those with an opposing views.
It is a shame that some on here blurt out information but never provide any links to facts. Others comments are just bordering on stupidity.
Constructive debate is healthy. The singling out of one members comments for ridicule while making no mention of others is not so healthy.
I will leave it at that.