Firstly, there are a few topics already on the forum on this subject however the discussion in those doesn't answer my question. Apologies for adding another thread.
I'm finding it difficult to assess the maximum permissible tow ball capacity on my vehicle. The owners manual indicates a Maximum Trailer Weight of 1500kg and Rear Axle Load Limit of 1075kg. The only mention of tow ball weight is in the following statement "It is recommended that you load your trailer so 10% of the trailer weight is on the tow ball. You must not exceed the maximum permissible trailer nose weight."
I infer from this that the manufacturer is indicating that the tow ball weight should not exceed 1500 x 10% = 150kg?
The statement that the maximum permissible trailer nose weight should not be exceeded confuses me. Am I correct in assuming that this relates to a limit of the trailer/caravan itself and not the vehicle because their is nothing in the manual that nominates this?
One of the wind up campers that is on our short list has a Tare Weight of 1070kg and Tow Ball Weight of 140kg. Obviously this tow ball weight is unloaded, however, is it typical for people to get this close to the Tow Ball Capacity in the unloaded condition and then try to manage their payload to reduce the loaded tow ball weight? Likely by loading towards the back of the trailer?
Or, should we be looking at getting something with a lower tow ball weight?
Appreciate the help. Thanks in advance.
Bill B said
06:19 PM Oct 11, 2019
Weights applicable should be shown on a plate on the towbar as well as in the specifications page in the vehicle handbook.
Google vehicle towing mass guide Nov 2016 which has lists the towing specifications of all vehicles generally sold in Australia.
Greg 1 said
09:59 PM Oct 11, 2019
It would be helpful if you gave the make and model of your tow vehicle. We might be able to then shed a bit more light on it.
Morts81 said
11:37 PM Oct 11, 2019
Greg
Our vehicle is a 2018 Ford Escape SUV.
The wind up campers we have been looking at are Jaycos. The Hawk is at the top of our list at the moment but there is the option to go down to the Lark which has a lower TARE and Tow Ball Weight. We arent interested in going all the way down to the Swift which is the lightest.
Greg 1 said
02:40 AM Oct 12, 2019
The information that I have found on your vehicle is that the maximum ball load is 150kgs. You would not want a camper with an unladen ball weight near that as almost definitely you will be over your maximum ball load.
Be careful also of your vehicles gross vehicle mass as looking at the kerb weight it would not be difficult to exceed the GVM.
dabbler said
09:53 AM Oct 12, 2019
Do you already have a towbar fitted ? It's unlikely there is several capacity towbars made for your vehicle (some vehicles have different limits for different variants). However, use the lower value of a) vehicle manufacturers max tow ball weight or b) towbar max tow ball weight (if they differ).
dabbler said
09:57 AM Oct 12, 2019
Forgot to add, tow ball weights can get manipulated to some extent by shifting the payload around. However if water tanks are involved then you will probably lose a lot of flexibility with weight distribution esp if you are already close to that 150kg.
Morts81 said
10:13 AM Oct 12, 2019
Appreciate the feedback guys.
We'll be using our van for short trips (2-3 nights at a time) in the medium term as we have a 4 year old who will start school full time next year, not for long adventures. We'll always stay in caravan parks and won't be off-road. In 2 or 3 years we'll likely upgrade the second car (Ford Focus) to a larger vehicle with a better tow capacity.
I say this because we have no intentions of driving with water in the water tanks and we are unlikely to have much more payload than the annex/annex walls/bed flys and then general kitchen items (cutlery, etc...it's unlikely we'll have much in the fridge either, most likely have a small esky in the car to/from destination) and then bedding, etc. (Oh and a small tv to watch the football on course) I doubt our payload will total 100kg. We certainly wouldn't be carrying jerry cans, etc.
The Jayco Hawk internal storage area is predominantly below the seating which is all located behind the wheels which would act to reduce the tow ball weight.
My thinking on this would be that it would be reasonably easy to adjust this limited payload to unload the tow ball weight to keep comfortably below the 150kg limit. However, as a newbie to all this caravanning stuff looking for some help to make smart and informed decisions. The larger Swan has a lower tow ball load of 125kg but my partner much prefers the Hawk.
Really appreciate the advice and feedback I've been receiving so far, this seems like a great community.
Whenarewethere said
10:34 AM Oct 12, 2019
Do a spreadsheet with every items including things like foot well mats, socks & phone cables etc. You will be horrified how quickly it adds up.
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Saturday 12th of October 2019 10:40:11 AM
outlaw40 said
07:45 AM Oct 13, 2019
Agree with Whenarewethere you will be shocked at how quickly the little must haves add up. Especially with a small child in tow. Finally keep an eye on the minister for war and finance. , they can add a lot of things that you may not be aware of if your not careful.
Morts81 said
11:53 AM Oct 13, 2019
That is an excellent link @Whenarewethere, appreciate sending it through.
Taking a look through it there is probably at least 80% of items that we wouldn't consider needing as we would only be intending to go away for anywhere up to 5 nights at a time and we wouldn't be going anywhere but recognised caravan parks. We wouldn't need the jerry cans, water, battery, tents, tow ropes, etc, etc that seem to add up to be a large percentage of the total weight quoted.
Even if we were to load up with 200kg payload the van itself (1070kg + 200kg) would comfortably be under the manufacturer's towing capacity of 1500kg.
With the van's kitchen forward of the wheels this leaves the majority of the internal storage space behind the wheels (under the seating) so I feel it wouldn't be too difficult to load the van in such a way that the tow ball weight could be reduced from the unloaded 140kg value to closer to the recommended 10% of total tow weight. How practical this is though I'm unsure, experienced caravaners in this forum may be able to shed some light on this?
dabbler said
01:17 PM Oct 13, 2019
How do you plan to check your tow ball weight once loaded ?
Greg 1 said
09:36 PM Oct 13, 2019
I would very much doubt that you will reduce your ball load unless the van is dangerously tail end loaded which will have the tendency to sway like a sapling in a strong wind.
I would be looking at either a different camper of swap your tow vehicle now.
Morts81 said
10:03 PM Oct 13, 2019
Greg 1
Yes, I think weve come to a similar conclusion. Although it may be possible to keep under the tow ball limit I think we are pushing it too much so weve started looking at the Jayco Lark which is a little smaller than the Hawk but has less than half the tow ball weight at 65kg.
Appreciate the feedback.
iana said
08:45 AM Oct 14, 2019
I think there is too much paranoia over ball weight, it will vary even as you drive. A variation of 2% either way of the 10% rule would still be OK. You will probably need a light WDH for your vehicle. We had a Swan towed behind a Magna, no problems at all, towed beautifully. Our effects were stowed in plastic tubs and put in the back of the station wagon.
Seems to me you have about 400kg of weight to play with. Just go and do it! You have to start some where.
To get your ball weight just us a set of bathroom scales, but once worked out, just go and forget.
Greg 1 said
12:00 PM Oct 14, 2019
That's not good advice if he's going to start off being illegal before even getting on the road for gods sake. We are not talking 10% rule of thumb here, we are talking vehicle manufacturers specified maximum ball weight. Can't just ignore that!.
iana said
01:00 PM Oct 14, 2019
It seems that there are two tow bars available, std and heavy duty, the HD one has a 1800/180kg rating. Perhaps a good look for any lables on the existing tow bar is required, to see what is fitted, and then a chat with Ford and Haymand Reece.
KevinJ said
01:47 PM Oct 14, 2019
I was looking at new vans on Saturday and of the 3 I looked at, all had TBD % of:
TBD/ATM
159/2800 - 5.68%
123/2500 - 4.92%
135/2800 - 4.82%
Are these too low or are they ok?
outlaw40 said
02:05 PM Oct 14, 2019
Kevinj if you got those figures from the compliance plates then they will be weight at tare not at atm . so very like relevance in the real world .
KevinJ said
02:22 PM Oct 14, 2019
Thanks Outlaw40. Yes, they were from the compliance plates. What does that mean when the van is loaded to its max ATM? What is the TBD to be applied?
KevinJ said
02:29 PM Oct 14, 2019
That still seems low:
TBD/Tare
159/2225 - 7.15%
123/2011 - 6.12%
135/2203 - 6.13%
outlaw40 said
03:15 PM Oct 14, 2019
KevinJ yes ball weight at tare can be low depending on the layout of the van . They are not designed to be towed empty . If you are looking at Australian built vans then 10 % or there abouts is a good starting point,how ever if it's European like jurgens etc then they are designed to run as low as 5% . Will depend on the van and above figures are a starting point only.
KevinJ said
03:41 PM Oct 14, 2019
Thanks Outlaw40.
The vans I looked at are all Alan Graham's (Gosford) Essential Series.
Does it mean then if RMS check me with the van and I had 300kg TBD, I would be illegal on any of these vans (Assuming the vehicle was rated for 300kg or more)?
outlaw40 said
03:47 PM Oct 14, 2019
no mate as long as you stay within the tow vehicles allowable tow ball weight your fine the idea of the % of ATM is purely for best stability. a van does not normally have a designated maximum ball weight as far as RMS is concerned only the tug .hope that makes sense .
outlaw40 said
03:56 PM Oct 14, 2019
just to add if you check the compliance plate it will tell you at the top somewhere the actual maker of the van , dont think ( and I could be wrong ) Alan Graham would be building them himself Mostly when these yards have a house brand they would be getting one of the many van builders to build them under contract for them . there are quite a few brands that fall into this category .
KevinJ said
05:24 PM Oct 14, 2019
The compliance plate shows Essential Caravans as the manufacturer.
To read back your comment, I can ignore the Max TBD of 159kg on the caravan compliance plate and have a higher Actual TBD so long as it is under the Max TBD of the tug.
outlaw40 said
05:37 PM Oct 14, 2019
You will need to confirm with the manufacturer if it does infact state max tow ball weight then you will need to abide by that normally they dont say MAX and in that situation then its the ball weight at tare .
KevinJ said
05:45 PM Oct 14, 2019
You're right again. It only shows Tow Ball (kg). So now I am totally confused. None of the values say Max, so are they only suggestions? (a bit like road rules in Vietnam)
outlaw40 said
07:29 PM Oct 14, 2019
Ok sorry if i have confused you . Now we know that the tow ball weight on the plate is only a tare weight so forget that all together . You need to comply with the tow ball weight of your tow vehicle and you need to comply with the atm on the van plate and aim for about 10% of the actual atm of the van on the ball to achieve stability . Hope that clears it up for you .
outlaw40 said
07:32 PM Oct 14, 2019
Again the ATM on the van plate cannot be exceeded. The tow ball weight of your tow vehicle cannot be exceeded.
Hello Forum
Firstly, there are a few topics already on the forum on this subject however the discussion in those doesn't answer my question. Apologies for adding another thread.
I'm finding it difficult to assess the maximum permissible tow ball capacity on my vehicle. The owners manual indicates a Maximum Trailer Weight of 1500kg and Rear Axle Load Limit of 1075kg. The only mention of tow ball weight is in the following statement "It is recommended that you load your trailer so 10% of the trailer weight is on the tow ball. You must not exceed the maximum permissible trailer nose weight."
I infer from this that the manufacturer is indicating that the tow ball weight should not exceed 1500 x 10% = 150kg?
The statement that the maximum permissible trailer nose weight should not be exceeded confuses me. Am I correct in assuming that this relates to a limit of the trailer/caravan itself and not the vehicle because their is nothing in the manual that nominates this?
One of the wind up campers that is on our short list has a Tare Weight of 1070kg and Tow Ball Weight of 140kg. Obviously this tow ball weight is unloaded, however, is it typical for people to get this close to the Tow Ball Capacity in the unloaded condition and then try to manage their payload to reduce the loaded tow ball weight? Likely by loading towards the back of the trailer?
Or, should we be looking at getting something with a lower tow ball weight?
Appreciate the help. Thanks in advance.
Google vehicle towing mass guide Nov 2016 which has lists the towing specifications of all vehicles generally sold in Australia.
We'll be using our van for short trips (2-3 nights at a time) in the medium term as we have a 4 year old who will start school full time next year, not for long adventures. We'll always stay in caravan parks and won't be off-road. In 2 or 3 years we'll likely upgrade the second car (Ford Focus) to a larger vehicle with a better tow capacity.
I say this because we have no intentions of driving with water in the water tanks and we are unlikely to have much more payload than the annex/annex walls/bed flys and then general kitchen items (cutlery, etc...it's unlikely we'll have much in the fridge either, most likely have a small esky in the car to/from destination) and then bedding, etc. (Oh and a small tv to watch the football on course) I doubt our payload will total 100kg. We certainly wouldn't be carrying jerry cans, etc.
The Jayco Hawk internal storage area is predominantly below the seating which is all located behind the wheels which would act to reduce the tow ball weight.
My thinking on this would be that it would be reasonably easy to adjust this limited payload to unload the tow ball weight to keep comfortably below the 150kg limit. However, as a newbie to all this caravanning stuff looking for some help to make smart and informed decisions. The larger Swan has a lower tow ball load of 125kg but my partner much prefers the Hawk.
Really appreciate the advice and feedback I've been receiving so far, this seems like a great community.
Do a spreadsheet with every items including things like foot well mats, socks & phone cables etc. You will be horrified how quickly it adds up.
Example of items down the page in this thread:
https://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t65110614/towing-weights-again/
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Saturday 12th of October 2019 10:40:11 AM
Taking a look through it there is probably at least 80% of items that we wouldn't consider needing as we would only be intending to go away for anywhere up to 5 nights at a time and we wouldn't be going anywhere but recognised caravan parks. We wouldn't need the jerry cans, water, battery, tents, tow ropes, etc, etc that seem to add up to be a large percentage of the total weight quoted.
Even if we were to load up with 200kg payload the van itself (1070kg + 200kg) would comfortably be under the manufacturer's towing capacity of 1500kg.
With the van's kitchen forward of the wheels this leaves the majority of the internal storage space behind the wheels (under the seating) so I feel it wouldn't be too difficult to load the van in such a way that the tow ball weight could be reduced from the unloaded 140kg value to closer to the recommended 10% of total tow weight. How practical this is though I'm unsure, experienced caravaners in this forum may be able to shed some light on this?
Yes, I think weve come to a similar conclusion. Although it may be possible to keep under the tow ball limit I think we are pushing it too much so weve started looking at the Jayco Lark which is a little smaller than the Hawk but has less than half the tow ball weight at 65kg.
Appreciate the feedback.
Seems to me you have about 400kg of weight to play with. Just go and do it! You have to start some where.
To get your ball weight just us a set of bathroom scales, but once worked out, just go and forget.
I was looking at new vans on Saturday and of the 3 I looked at, all had TBD % of:
TBD/ATM
159/2800 - 5.68%
123/2500 - 4.92%
135/2800 - 4.82%
Are these too low or are they ok?
Thanks Outlaw40. Yes, they were from the compliance plates. What does that mean when the van is loaded to its max ATM? What is the TBD to be applied?
That still seems low:
TBD/Tare
159/2225 - 7.15%
123/2011 - 6.12%
135/2203 - 6.13%
Thanks Outlaw40.
The vans I looked at are all Alan Graham's (Gosford) Essential Series.
Does it mean then if RMS check me with the van and I had 300kg TBD, I would be illegal on any of these vans (Assuming the vehicle was rated for 300kg or more)?
The compliance plate shows Essential Caravans as the manufacturer.
To read back your comment, I can ignore the Max TBD of 159kg on the caravan compliance plate and have a higher Actual TBD so long as it is under the Max TBD of the tug.
You're right again. It only shows Tow Ball (kg). So now I am totally confused. None of the values say Max, so are they only suggestions? (a bit like road rules in Vietnam)