Hello, I had a frightening experience recently with an 18 volt lithium iron drill battery exploding whilst being charged for only about half an hour and causing several fires throughout the unattached garage.
The charger was a genuine Makita 18v charger however the battery was an Ebay battery from China (hence the caution to others that may be using imported batteries)
Fortunately I had a supposedly faulty smoke alarm fixed to the garage ceiling rather than throwing it out which sounded the alarm and potentially saved the house, boat, vehicles etc as inside the garage was spare oil, boat fuel, gas cylinder etc so a very volatile situation. Luckily I had several fire extinguishers within easy reach which saved the day.
So, after this experience I only charge lithium batteries under the verandah with nothing nearby which can catch alight. Secondly will now only stick to genuine brands.
I hope this alerts people to the dangers that can exist using non genuine brands. Unlike genuine, I'm led to believe the Chines batteries don't have internal overload protection.
Surprisingly my Makita charger although badly singed in places still works fine and continues to charge my now genuine Makita batteries without a problem.
I only use Bosch batteries in my Bosch equipment. Canon Batteries in Canon camera etc. It's not worth the risk.
I have 2 fire extinguishers in the car & 1 more in the garage. 1 in the Unit, 1 in common laundry, 1 in meter room (required by law in meter rooms in blocks of units in NSW, not sure about other States).
Give ABE extinguishers a bash & a shake regularly to free up the settling powder, especially in vehicles.
Greg 1 said
04:54 PM Dec 30, 2019
This is a known problem with lithium batteries, hence why airlines are very cautious and restrictive to carry them. Also why Tesla cars are known to burst into flames following accidents. Towies in the US hate hooking them up because often they will light up once on their truck. Several injured people have been incinerated in their crash Teslas as a result
You will find most of the power tool batteries come from China anyway. Just the brand name ones are built to the brand names specification, whereas the cheaper generic types are not.
woolman said
10:13 AM Dec 31, 2019
Something I was advis
woolman said
10:19 AM Dec 31, 2019
Something I was advised of a few days ago. A lithium charger can only charge correct batteries. My case was to get new batteries for my Riobi appliances (water 17 years) and found out there is a difference with new batteries, within monitoring system matching charger. Some have 2 monitoring points and other only 1 and they are not interchangeable betw
woolman said
10:24 AM Dec 31, 2019
Something I was advised of a few days ago. A lithium charger can only charge correct batteries. My case was to get new batteries for my Riobi appliances (water 17 years) and found out there is a difference with new batteries, within monitoring system matching charger. Some have 2 monitoring points and other only 1 and they are not interchangeable between chargers. Drills etc not a problem.
The Riobi guru advised when using wrong charger they will blow up , either whilst charging or later during use.
Technology is great if ALL instructions are followed.
Maybe I won't bypass all the "warning information" in future.
Neil
Greg 1 said
05:20 PM Jan 1, 2020
Some of the older Ryobi chargers will not charge the later model batteries even though they are meant for lithium batteries
but the later model chargers do all.
I have had no issues charging all my Ryobi genuine batteries in a late model charger. I have both.
I might add that the genuine Ryobi batteries are all made in China.
Aus-Kiwi said
08:52 PM Jan 1, 2020
Is the the betta / VHS thing all over again . They should all get together with same charging systems !!
Mamil said
08:58 PM Jan 1, 2020
Replaced by more detailed post below...
-- Edited by Mamil on Thursday 2nd of January 2020 02:18:47 PM
Mamil said
02:04 PM Jan 2, 2020
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Is the the betta / VHS thing all over again . They should all get together with same charging systems !!
Good idea, but not really feasible.
Trouble is there's a multitude of different chemistries out there all generically referred to as "Lithium", and new ones are being invented all the time. But each chemistry has differences in terms of cell voltage, allowable charge rate, maximum temperature for thermal runaway etc. so the charger needs to be matched specifically to the chemistry of the battery. Which is why the instruction books always say to only use the original charger and original battery type that came with the product, and why buying a clone battery from China is such a lottery as it may look the same on the outside but there's no knowing what chemistry is lurking within!
Interestingly, when we build commercial sized Lithium battery storage systems at work it's a requirement that we have a sign on the outside of the battery enclosure showing the exact battery chemistry used so the emergency services know what's in there and how to treat it in the event of an incident. Same with our warehouse where we store all the different types of battery. And, when transported in bulk by road unlike flooded lead acid and AGM, Lithium batteries are classed as "dangerous goods" and must be protected from water, and in their original packaging which has the chemistry labelled on the outside in case of a road accident. No such requirement for our RVs it seems, nor consumer products. In fact I just looked at my DeWalt power tool batteries and there is just a generic Li-ion label, no indication of the exact chemistry, which I'm pretty sure is Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) as that's what most power tool batteries are these days.
Incidentally, for anyone who's interested the phone/laptop/camera batteries that have a reputation for catching fire are Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2), which have the lowest thermal runaway threshold (the temperature at which they will spontaneously catch fire) of any Lithium chemistry at 150degC, and are particularly unstable when fully charged. Meanwhile, most EV batteries (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, BMW i3, and most hybrids) are Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4) which has a much higher thermal threshold of 250degC, although Tesla use Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2) because of it's higher energy density and longer lifespan, but the downside is the thermal threshold is the same as the laptop/phone batteries, which is why Teslas have a reputation for catching fire in accidents! Thankfully, the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) chemistry used in deep cycle 'house' batteries in our RVs has the highest thermal threshold of all the Lithium chemistries at 270degC which is nearly double that of phone and Tesla batteries, and have other characteristics such as increased tolerance to overcharging which makes them the safest of Lithium technologies out there. However, it's still very important that you only use a charger with a specific LiFePO4 charging profile, in conjunction with an internal BMS to protect the battery.
-- Edited by Mamil on Thursday 2nd of January 2020 02:52:06 PM
KJB said
02:33 PM Jan 2, 2020
Thanks for drawing on your "hands on.." experience and giving us a simple explanation of a complex subject.
Greg 1 said
02:41 PM Jan 2, 2020
Very interesting and worthwhile post Mamil. Thank you for that.
Mamil said
03:09 PM Jan 2, 2020
No problem guys, glad to be of some help. I generally try to avoid battery and solar threads as I'm by no means an expert on the subject, just picked up some knowledge by working in the industry, and there's a few people on here who tend to dominate any discussions on those subjects and scare off anyone who may have a different perspective
-- Edited by Mamil on Thursday 2nd of January 2020 07:15:51 PM
Hello, I had a frightening experience recently with an 18 volt lithium iron drill battery exploding whilst being charged for only about half an hour and causing several fires throughout the unattached garage.
The charger was a genuine Makita 18v charger however the battery was an Ebay battery from China (hence the caution to others that may be using imported batteries)
Fortunately I had a supposedly faulty smoke alarm fixed to the garage ceiling rather than throwing it out which sounded the alarm and potentially saved the house, boat, vehicles etc as inside the garage was spare oil, boat fuel, gas cylinder etc so a very volatile situation. Luckily I had several fire extinguishers within easy reach which saved the day.
So, after this experience I only charge lithium batteries under the verandah with nothing nearby which can catch alight. Secondly will now only stick to genuine brands.
I hope this alerts people to the dangers that can exist using non genuine brands. Unlike genuine, I'm led to believe the Chines batteries don't have internal overload protection.
Surprisingly my Makita charger although badly singed in places still works fine and continues to charge my now genuine Makita batteries without a problem.
Attached is a photo of the burn out battery
Very glad to hear that there wasn't a major fire.
I only use Bosch batteries in my Bosch equipment. Canon Batteries in Canon camera etc. It's not worth the risk.
I have 2 fire extinguishers in the car & 1 more in the garage. 1 in the Unit, 1 in common laundry, 1 in meter room (required by law in meter rooms in blocks of units in NSW, not sure about other States).
Give ABE extinguishers a bash & a shake regularly to free up the settling powder, especially in vehicles.
Replaced by more detailed post below...
-- Edited by Mamil on Thursday 2nd of January 2020 02:18:47 PM
Good idea, but not really feasible.
Trouble is there's a multitude of different chemistries out there all generically referred to as "Lithium", and new ones are being invented all the time. But each chemistry has differences in terms of cell voltage, allowable charge rate, maximum temperature for thermal runaway etc. so the charger needs to be matched specifically to the chemistry of the battery. Which is why the instruction books always say to only use the original charger and original battery type that came with the product, and why buying a clone battery from China is such a lottery as it may look the same on the outside but there's no knowing what chemistry is lurking within!
Interestingly, when we build commercial sized Lithium battery storage systems at work it's a requirement that we have a sign on the outside of the battery enclosure showing the exact battery chemistry used so the emergency services know what's in there and how to treat it in the event of an incident. Same with our warehouse where we store all the different types of battery. And, when transported in bulk by road unlike flooded lead acid and AGM, Lithium batteries are classed as "dangerous goods" and must be protected from water, and in their original packaging which has the chemistry labelled on the outside in case of a road accident. No such requirement for our RVs it seems, nor consumer products. In fact I just looked at my DeWalt power tool batteries and there is just a generic Li-ion label, no indication of the exact chemistry, which I'm pretty sure is Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) as that's what most power tool batteries are these days.
Incidentally, for anyone who's interested the phone/laptop/camera batteries that have a reputation for catching fire are Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2), which have the lowest thermal runaway threshold (the temperature at which they will spontaneously catch fire) of any Lithium chemistry at 150degC, and are particularly unstable when fully charged. Meanwhile, most EV batteries (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, BMW i3, and most hybrids) are Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4) which has a much higher thermal threshold of 250degC, although Tesla use Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2) because of it's higher energy density and longer lifespan, but the downside is the thermal threshold is the same as the laptop/phone batteries, which is why Teslas have a reputation for catching fire in accidents! Thankfully, the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) chemistry used in deep cycle 'house' batteries in our RVs has the highest thermal threshold of all the Lithium chemistries at 270degC which is nearly double that of phone and Tesla batteries, and have other characteristics such as increased tolerance to overcharging which makes them the safest of Lithium technologies out there. However, it's still very important that you only use a charger with a specific LiFePO4 charging profile, in conjunction with an internal BMS to protect the battery.
-- Edited by Mamil on Thursday 2nd of January 2020 02:52:06 PM
Thanks for drawing on your "hands on.." experience and giving us a simple explanation of a complex subject.
No problem guys, glad to be of some help. I generally try to avoid battery and solar threads as I'm by no means an expert on the subject, just picked up some knowledge by working in the industry, and there's a few people on here who tend to dominate any discussions on those subjects and scare off anyone who may have a different perspective
-- Edited by Mamil on Thursday 2nd of January 2020 07:15:51 PM