Well the brain is still working while asleep. Got to thinking about our van and how Jayco came up with the lucky numbers on so many models in their range.
We know that new van's, are weighed empty for stamp duty on rego's.
Our van has a Tare Weight of 2061. A Gvm of 2475 leaving us with a 414 spare weight of just 414kg.
Our 2015 Jayco with fitted extra's to our van pre rego with a stated ball weight in their brochure 189kg. Ours pre rego 199kg. True weight gas bottles and water and food etc ball weight 245kg. Jayco changed the Vin plate after we complained.
Sooooo the brain wakes up and says to itself, how about An Atm/Gvm on the van, so Old and myself can take along the must haves. an extra 400kg on the compliance plate would be nice to stay compliant.The van is fitted with Al-Co anti sway, breakway unit, and and has an identical undercarridge as the bigger silverline.
Yep same specs.
Our tow unit is a GX 200 series Landcruiser with ABS and sway control. With Gvm coming before our next trip.
So I Get on U Tube, and up pops a Queensland couple with a Corromal van and have their rig weighed by GVM Queensland.
60% of rigs weighed are OVER, according to the engineneer attending.
Going on what he checked they can Up their Atm by 400kg without changing components. He the engineer checked the wheels, tyres, chains, and other bits. Did the calulations and feed into his computer. A new compliance plate fitted onsite. Total 1.5 hours.
I will look into this further here in NSW.
Old and myself want to law abiding and safe to other road users.
Well the brain is still working while asleep. Got to thinking about our van and how Jayco came up with the lucky numbers on so many models in their range.
We know that new van's, are weighed empty for stamp duty on rego's.
Our van has a Tare Weight of 2061. A Gvm of 2475 leaving us with a 414 spare weight of just 414kg.
Our 2015 Jayco with fitted extra's to our van pre rego with a stated ball weight in their brochure 189kg. Ours pre rego 199kg. True weight gas bottles and water and food etc ball weight 245kg. Jayco changed the Vin plate after we complained.
Sooooo the brain wakes up and says to itself, how about An Atm/Gvm on the van, so Old and myself can take along the must haves. an extra 400kg on the compliance plate would be nice to stay compliant.The van is fitted with Al-Co anti sway, breakway unit, and and has an identical undercarridge as the bigger silverline.
Yep same specs.
Our tow unit is a GX 200 series Landcruiser with ABS and sway control. With Gvm coming before our next trip.
So I Get on U Tube, and up pops a Queensland couple with a Corromal van and have their rig weighed by GVM Queensland.
60% of rigs weighed are OVER, according to the engineneer attending.
Going on what he checked they can Up their Atm by 400kg without changing components. He the engineer checked the wheels, tyres, chains, and other bits. Did the calulations and feed into his computer. A new compliance plate fitted onsite. Total 1.5 hours.
I will look into this further here in NSW.
Old and myself want to law abiding and safe to other road users.
Has anyone done the same.
Keep safe and well.
Grey
If you could post a photo of your van's compliance plate that would help us to give assistance.The biggest problem caravanners encounter with weights is the rear axle capacity of their car...please be aware that the much vaunted GVM upgrade on your car is next to useless,as you will spend thousands of dollars to increase the rear axle capacity from 1950kg to 2000kg.....yes,a miserable 50kg! Why would you even bother? Front axle capacity is of little concern,as,with a van in tow,you can never get that axle loaded to anywhere near its capacity.Cheers
travelyounger said
02:28 PM Aug 10, 2020
Hi Old and Grey
My previous van was a 19'5 Fulcher Galaxy with a tare of 1800 kg and ATM of 2250 and I had ATM raised to 2800 in NSW .
The process was to take your van and get the axles suspension brakes and wheel and hubs checked by a blue slip registered mechanic and they will tell you if you can get an upgrade without any changing and what you need to do if need to change things.Lucky for me the van was under the maximum when registered as are many vans and the whole process only cost approx 80 dollars plus a new rego but that was five years ago .
Cheers
Warren-Pat_01 said
03:14 PM Aug 10, 2020
G'day Old and Grey,
Yes, it would be nice to have a light weight van capable of carrying a heavy weight load. Other than incorporating a "sky hook", I don't know how to do it.
Have a look at the inside of your wheels - they will have two sets of numbers. Firstly the wheel size & off set AND the total load that can be carried. Mine are rated to 1000kg each - excluding the spare, I only have two wheels to carry the load! Your wheels may be the same & they are only available from Jayco agencies & cost (a couple of years ago) $340 each.
I'd love a heavier axle & springs to carry an extra 50kg or so but then I'd need new wheels & tyres too. Is it better to upgrade for $xxx or to sell & buy something else?
Old and Grey said
06:07 PM Aug 10, 2020
Hi Warren, Travleyounger and every one,
Yes I will get back to you shortly, as I have a second unused spare. Will get all the info and report back.
Thanks Grey
Old and Grey said
09:17 PM Aug 10, 2020
Hi everyone,
Well did some digging.
Pulled the original rego paper. States Tare Weight =2061, IMO BS.
GVM 2475 .Paid by Jayco as total deal.
So I followed everyone's request's.
The VIN plate replaced by Jayco Sydney on first return, early 2016.
The Vin Plate now reads as follows Tare left blank. Yep blank. Ball mass=199kg MaxBall Loading Left blank. = kg. GTM =2276 ATM=2475kg
Axle Group= 2667kg
We had this van beefed up a little In the factory build. Extended A frame by 300mm reinforced. Full length body rails to rear 125mm x 50mm x 4mm. 150mm x 50mm cross members.
Wheels 15 x6JJ -ET6/-
VIA 1060kg
Tyres LT235/75R 110/1075 A/T
Load Range D
Max Load @ 4 x 975kg at 65psi =3900kg
Hitch is AlKo 3500kg
Safety chains x 2 Rated @ PWB 4177- 3.5T
So is it safe to assume an extra 192kg in our favour.
Your views please.
Sorry getting back so late.
Grey
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 09:16:37 AM
TheHeaths said
08:27 AM Aug 11, 2020
Not safe to assume anything O&G.
Until you talk to an engineer, and they advise if you can get an increase in ATM, and how much, you are stuck at what you have.
I am surprised by a couple of things, however. Firstly, Jayco policy has always been a load allowance of 475kg in en-suite tandems, and 400 in non en-suite tandems. Thus, as yours is below that, I assume there was some reason they couldnt go 475kg.
Secondly, the brochure weights are a guide only, as all vans are weighed after building, and will vary. The loaded weight of 249kgs seems reasonable based on ATM. Our tare TBW is 189kg, and loaded we are around 275kg. Well within the cars allowable TBW. I did have them remove the MaxTBW they had placed on our van, as it was well below car allowance, and not based on engineered van, but theoretical weights. They only did Max TBW for about 12 months before ceasing it.
I take it you have either a Silverline, or Starcraft Outback, as you say your undercarriage is the same as Silverline. I assume then you have the J Tech independent suspension.
Lastly, Jayco will not assist in increasing ATM, so you will need the engineer to do that.
Good luck getting ATM increased, but certainly dont assume it will be done, and enjoy it when it is done.
Old and Grey said
09:23 AM Aug 11, 2020
Morning Ian,
Our van is a Journey Outback with yes, the J-tect system.
Regards Grey
yobarr said
09:31 AM Aug 11, 2020
Old and Grey wrote:
Hi everyone,
Well did some digging.
Pulled the original rego paper. States Tare Weight =2061, IMO BS.
GVM 2475 .Paid by Jayco as total deal.
So I followed everyone's request's.
The VIN plate replaced by Jayco Sydney on first return, early 2016.
The Vin Plate now reads as follows Tare left blank. Yep blank. Ball mass=199kg MaxBall Loading Left blank. = kg. GTM =2276 ATM=2475kg
Axle Group= 2667kg
We had this van beefed up a little. extended A frame by 300mm reinforced. Full length body rails to rear 125mm x 50mm x 4mm. 150mm x 50mm cross members.
Wheels 15 x6JJ -ET6/-
VIA 1060kg
Tyres LT235/75R 110/1075 A/T
Load Range D
Max Load @ 4 x 975kg at 65psi =3900kg
Hitch is AlKo 3500kg
Safety chains x 2 Rated @ PWB 4177- 3.5T
So is it safe to assume an extra 192kg in our favour.
Your views please.
Sorry getting back so late.
Grey
Since your axle group is rated at 2667kg and you have "beefed up" your van's chassis,there should be little problem having a qualified engineer increase your ATM to around 2900kg,a gain of 425kg. Assuming 10% towball weight,you would add around 420kg to your car's rear axle......the "achilles heel" of the ubiquitous LC200 is its lightweight rear axle.Factory rating is only 1950kg,but please be aware that the much vaunted GVM upgrade costs thousands of dollars,and increases the rear axle rating to only 2000kg......yes,a gain of a miserable 50kg! The first thing I'd be doing is visiting a weighbridge to get an idea of the actual tare of the van.....you may be surprised? Selective loading will help you get your towball weight up to around 290kg,or the generally accepted 10%,and at 2900kg ATM you would be very close to the maximum that an LC200 can SAFELY tow. Congratulations on taking your weights seriously,and asking for advice.....you no doubt will keep us informed of progress? I wish you only good luck with your project.Cheers
Old and Grey said
11:19 AM Aug 11, 2020
Hi Yobarr,
Thankyou you so much. We/I did get Jayco to build in the extra's, as down the track We planned to take our aluminium dingy with us on future trips. That equates to weight.
So the car will get a Gvm. We were told to wait a bit longer if we can, as things are heating up again on the Gvm frontline.
Many things I can build/ do myself. when it comes to certifitation, sorry Have to past on to the engineers.
Can you explane for me if the group axles =2667 how we can get to 2900kg. We would love to have this number up our sleeves. Not that we would need that number, but it would be piece of mind having so.
I just took the Ga mass 2667 from the atm 2475kg and said 192kg.
Thanks again Grey
montie said
02:32 PM Aug 11, 2020
Old and Grey wrote:
Hi everyone,
Well did some digging.
Pulled the original rego paper. States Tare Weight =2061, IMO BS.
GVM 2475 .Paid by Jayco as total deal.
So I followed everyone's request's.
The VIN plate replaced by Jayco Sydney on first return, early 2016.
The Vin Plate now reads as follows Tare left blank. Yep blank. Ball mass=199kg MaxBall Loading Left blank. = kg. GTM =2276 ATM=2475kg
Axle Group= 2667kg
We had this van beefed up a little In the factory build. Extended A frame by 300mm reinforced. Full length body rails to rear 125mm x 50mm x 4mm. 150mm x 50mm cross members.
Wheels 15 x6JJ -ET6/-
VIA 1060kg
Tyres LT235/75R 110/1075 A/T
Load Range D
Max Load @ 4 x 975kg at 65psi =3900kg
Hitch is AlKo 3500kg
Safety chains x 2 Rated @ PWB 4177- 3.5T
So is it safe to assume an extra 192kg in our favour.
Your views please.
Sorry getting back so late.
Grey
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 09:16:37 AM
Any ATM upgrade will be limited by the Axle Group Rating which is 2667kg unless there are other components rated below that.
As a matter of interest a van manufacturer is not legally required to stamp Tare or Ball weight on the Compliance Plate.
yobarr said
02:48 PM Aug 11, 2020
Old and Grey wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
Thankyou you so much. We/I did get Jayco to build in the extra's, as down the track We planned to take our aluminium dingy with us on future trips. That equates to weight.
So the car will get a Gvm. We were told to wait a bit longer if we can, as things are heating up again on the Gvm frontline.
Many things I can build/ do myself. when it comes to certifitation, sorry Have to past on to the engineers.
Can you explane for me if the group axles =2667 how we can get to 2900kg. We would love to have this number up our sleeves. Not that we would need that number, but it would be piece of mind having so.
I just took the Ga mass 2667 from the atm 2475kg and said 192kg.
Thanks again Grey
Hi Grey...I have assumed that when you posted "axle group 2667kg" you were quoting that figure from your compliance plate? It usually is listed as "axle/axle group load capacity" or similar,and is the maximum that can be carried on that axle group.Given that towball weight generally is accepted as 10% of ATM,this obviously leaves the other 90% of ATM to be carried by the axles! To minimuse confusion,I used 2900kg as an approximate figure for ATM,and this was calculated by dividing 2667kg (90% of ATM) by 9 and multiplying by 10.The exact figure is 2963kg.....IF the axles are indeed rated to carry 2667kg,and an engineer is happy with your "beefed up" chassis there should be little trouble getting ATM upgraded to 2900kg or so.I once upgraded an ATM from 2180kg to 3500kg,with little trouble,but because I had increased rim size from 15 to 16 and my GTM exceeded 2800kg,I had to fit 12 brake drums.No big deal,and not relevant to your situation.Could you confirm that "axle group 2667kg" is indeed the axle rating on your compliance plate....a photo always is a good option in situations such as this. Otherwise,different interpretations of figures can result in total confusion! Cheers
Old and Grey said
05:37 PM Aug 11, 2020
Hi Yobarr,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The little Lady wants the house painted. Been on the scaffold all day painting the dinning room. Have to earn brownie points for the Gvm.
The Jayco plate which I take as the VIN plate reads word for word : Axle Group Load Capacity 2667kg.
Is a compliance plate the same as the Vin plate OR should I be looking for another.
Thanks
Grey
yobarr said
06:21 PM Aug 11, 2020
Old and Grey wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The little Lady wants the house painted. Been on the scaffold all day painting the dinning room. Have to earn brownie points for the Gvm.
The Jayco plate which I take as the VIN plate reads word for word : Axle Group Load Capacity 2667kg.
Is a compliance plate the same as the Vin plate OR should I be looking for another.
Thanks
Grey
You've done well,Grey! That is what I needed confirmation of.Now I can confirm that all my figures are correct,but I strongly suggest that you save the money you intend to spend on the GVM upgrade...thousands of dollars to gain 50kg? Sure,you will be able to get a percentage of the weight of your dinghy onto the front axle, but still your rear axle will be overloaded.Cheers
montie said
06:47 PM Aug 11, 2020
I would have doubts if any engineer would approve an ATM upgrade greater than the van's Axle Group Rating. You may convince him to take ball weight into account but he would then be approving an over rate unhitched van plus ball weight can be unreliable.
I believe you would be pushing the absolute limit and I would advise you talk to an engineer.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 06:48:38 PM
yobarr said
07:25 PM Aug 11, 2020
montie wrote:
I would have doubts if any engineer would approve an ATM upgrade greater than the van's Axle Group Rating. You may convince him to take ball weight into account but he would then be approving an over rate unhitched van plus ball weight can be unreliable.
I believe you would be pushing the absolute limit and I would advise you talk to an engineer.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 06:48:38 PM
With respect,Montie,I have great respect for you,as you obviously are an erudite individual,but I believe that,in this case, you are 100% wrong.My GTM now is 3200kg,and ATM is 3500kg.Used to be 2180kg ATM,with 2800kg axle capacity.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 07:29:07 PM
montie said
07:50 PM Aug 11, 2020
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
I would have doubts if any engineer would approve an ATM upgrade greater than the van's Axle Group Rating. You may convince him to take ball weight into account but he would then be approving an over rate unhitched van plus ball weight can be unreliable.
I believe you would be pushing the absolute limit and I would advise you talk to an engineer.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 06:48:38 PM
With respect,Montie,I have great respect for you,as you obviously are an erudite individual,but I believe that,in this case, you are 100% wrong.My GTM now is 3200kg,and ATM is 3500kg.Used to be 2180kg ATM,with 2800kg axle capacity.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 07:29:07 P
Yobarr,
You have done very well. Your ATM exceeds your Axle Group Rating by 700kg!
That's with a ball weight of 300kg.
yobarr said
08:08 PM Aug 11, 2020
montie wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
I would have doubts if any engineer would approve an ATM upgrade greater than the van's Axle Group Rating. You may convince him to take ball weight into account but he would then be approving an over rate unhitched van plus ball weight can be unreliable.
I believe you would be pushing the absolute limit and I would advise you talk to an engineer.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 06:48:38 PM
With respect,Montie,I have great respect for you,as you obviously are an erudite individual,but I believe that,in this case, you are 100% wrong.My GTM now is 3200kg,and ATM is 3500kg.Used to be 2180kg ATM,with 2800kg axle capacity.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 07:29:07 P
Yobarr,
You have done very well. Your ATM exceeds your Axle Group Rating by 700kg!
That's with a ball weight of 300kg.
Uncharacteristically,Montie,you seem not to have noticed that my NEW GTM, is 3200kg,which is my axle group rating,and that my ATM now is 3500kg? Earlier posts will have shown that,in order to get to 3200kg GTM with 16" wheels,I had to fit 12" brakes. Hope this clears things up for you?Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 12th of August 2020 06:42:01 PM
montie said
08:19 PM Aug 11, 2020
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
I would have doubts if any engineer would approve an ATM upgrade greater than the van's Axle Group Rating. You may convince him to take ball weight into account but he would then be approving an over rate unhitched van plus ball weight can be unreliable.
I believe you would be pushing the absolute limit and I would advise you talk to an engineer.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 06:48:38 PM
With respect,Montie,I have great respect for you,as you obviously are an erudite individual,but I believe that,in this case, you are 100% wrong.My GTM now is 3200kg,and ATM is 3500kg.Used to be 2180kg ATM,with 2800kg axle capacity.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 07:29:07 P
Yobarr,
You have done very well. Your ATM exceeds your Axle Group Rating by 700kg!
That's with a ball weight of 300kg.
Uncharacteristically,Montie,you seem not to have noticed that my NEW GTM, is 3200kg,which is my axle group rating,and my ATM now is 3500kg.Earlier posts will have shown that,in order to get to 3200kg GTM with 16 wheels,I had to fit 12 brakes. Hope this clears things up for you?Cheers.
Yobarr,
GTM is the measured weight on the axles as transmitted to the ground and is the product of ATM minus Ball weight.
Axle Group Rating is set by the chassis manufacturer and in reality the only way you can increase GTM is to increase the Axle Group Rating which you may well have done.
Basically the GTM cannot legally exceed the Axle Group Rating.
yobarr said
08:29 PM Aug 11, 2020
montie wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
I would have doubts if any engineer would approve an ATM upgrade greater than the van's Axle Group Rating. You may convince him to take ball weight into account but he would then be approving an over rate unhitched van plus ball weight can be unreliable.
I believe you would be pushing the absolute limit and I would advise you talk to an engineer.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 06:48:38 PM
With respect,Montie,I have great respect for you,as you obviously are an erudite individual,but I believe that,in this case, you are 100% wrong.My GTM now is 3200kg,and ATM is 3500kg.Used to be 2180kg ATM,with 2800kg axle capacity.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 07:29:07 P
Yobarr,
You have done very well. Your ATM exceeds your Axle Group Rating by 700kg!
That's with a ball weight of 300kg.
Uncharacteristically,Montie,you seem not to have noticed that my NEW GTM, is 3200kg,which is my axle group rating,and my ATM now is 3500kg.Earlier posts will have shown that,in order to get to 3200kg GTM with 16 wheels,I had to fit 12 brakes. Hope this clears things up for you?Cheers.
Yobarr,
GTM is the measured weight on the axles as transmitted to the ground and is the product of ATM minus Ball weight.
Axle Group Rating is set by the chassis manufacturer and in reality the only way you can increase GTM is to increase the Axle Group Rating which you may well have done.
Basically the GTM cannot legally exceed the Axle Group Rating.
Exactly! My axle group rating now is 3200kg,as is my GTM.With 350kg towball weight,I can run at only 3150kg on the van's axles,which is OK.My axle group rating was increased from 2800kg whilst I was increasing GVM to 3500kg. I am happy to forward to you photos of ny compliance plates,before and after GVM upgrade.Cheers.
montie said
08:40 PM Aug 11, 2020
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
I would have doubts if any engineer would approve an ATM upgrade greater than the van's Axle Group Rating. You may convince him to take ball weight into account but he would then be approving an over rate unhitched van plus ball weight can be unreliable.
I believe you would be pushing the absolute limit and I would advise you talk to an engineer.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 06:48:38 PM
With respect,Montie,I have great respect for you,as you obviously are an erudite individual,but I believe that,in this case, you are 100% wrong.My GTM now is 3200kg,and ATM is 3500kg.Used to be 2180kg ATM,with 2800kg axle capacity.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 07:29:07 P
Yobarr,
You have done very well. Your ATM exceeds your Axle Group Rating by 700kg!
That's with a ball weight of 300kg.
Uncharacteristically,Montie,you seem not to have noticed that my NEW GTM, is 3200kg,which is my axle group rating,and my ATM now is 3500kg.Earlier posts will have shown that,in order to get to 3200kg GTM with 16 wheels,I had to fit 12 brakes. Hope this clears things up for you?Cheers.
Yobarr,
GTM is the measured weight on the axles as transmitted to the ground and is the product of ATM minus Ball weight.
Axle Group Rating is set by the chassis manufacturer and in reality the only way you can increase GTM is to increase the Axle Group Rating which you may well have done.
Basically the GTM cannot legally exceed the Axle Group Rating.
Exactly! My axle group rating now is 3200kg,as is my GTM.With 350kg towball weight,I can run at only 3150kg on the van's axles,which is OK.My axle group rating was increased from 2800kg whilst I was increasing GVM to 3500kg. I am happy to forward to you photos of ny compliance plates,before and after GVM upgrade.Cheers.
As I stated earlier you have done well to get an Axle Group Rating upgraded by 400kg.
In my experience it is difficult to get an engineer's upgrade to ATM that exceeds the Axle Group Rating.
Eaglemax said
03:18 AM Aug 12, 2020
Oh boy, why would anyone bother with this complex weights saga and not just choose a van somewhat smaller and lighter?
In one way each to their own, in another way I just dont get it.
I own my van I built myself, atm 998kg, full basic ensuite, solar, tv, cooker, 86 litres water (plus 40 in the car when towing). Currently living in it while building our house. Never tempted to lug a huge van around.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the trend to do so is not such a wise trend. Maxing our your towing capacity is what would give me nightmares and even if legal- doesnt mean its safe
Rain Maker said
02:49 PM Aug 17, 2020
Hi, Just a couple of points.
The caravan should have a stamped ATM / GTM not GCM (Aggregate Trailer Mass and Gross Trailer Mass) A car has a GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) Using the correct terminology helps avoid confusion.
Question:- Why do people stress over the Kerb Weight or Tare of a vehicle or caravan? You cannot usually legally change what is stamped on the vehicle and usually do not need to, especially after next years new regulations. come into play.
You do however need to keep weights under axle group ratings and caravan GTM, ATM and Tow ball weight. Tare can be legally calculated in several ways at present (This may change next year).
A van mass produced may have a couple of vans weighted and then the remainder stamped the same. These vans usually end up at the dealer who then may add accessories and extras like extra solar and batteries etc. which will usually make the van weight above the plated levels. Alternatively individually ordered caravans are usually weighed after construction with all extras requested by the customer a part of the construction process included.
Dealers will then do pre-delivery checks and fill the gas bottles, hot water system and leave water in the plumbing lines etc.etc. The van that you pick up will rarely weight the same as the compliance plate at that stage. here is always confusion as to what is included in a delivered van for Tare weight. (Mattress etc. Don't stress it is normal.
Weight your van when it is 'fully loaded' for your trip, (including booze, water, tools, cloths bedding etc. etc) At this stage it should have load distributed correctly for balance and towing stability with approximately 10% of the total ball weight on the towball, and be under the GTM, ATM and Tow Ball weights. If not take stuff out.
Do the same for your tow vehicle including all occupants of the vehicle as they are weight also. Check the weight against the GVM, tow ball weight and axle weights etc on the compliance plate.
Check both weights (Tow vehicle and caravan) combined against the tow vehicle GCM. You should be under all plated weights.
ONE LAST COMMENT to those who advise to get a GVM upgrade on the tow vehicle to restore the towing capacity, this not correct.
Getting a GVM upgrade on the tow vehicle will REDUCE YOUR TOWING CAPACITY unless you also get a legal compliance plated GCM upgrade at the same time despite what is on some blogs and social media..
You may be able to legally carry an extra 500kg on the tow vehicle but the tow vehicles original GCM will remain. If you load the tow vehicle to the new upgraded GVM you will have 500kg's LESS GCM so can only tow a smaller van at maximum load. (a van 500kg's lighter.
A GCM upgrade cannot be done in many states unless done prior to initial registration. The states vary so check your state laws and are they then recognised in other states. Check with Lovells Suspension who are leaders in this field.. It has to be a second stage of manufacture (pre initial registration) is some states.
Hi, Just a couple of points.The caravan should have a stamped ATM / GTM not GCM (Aggregate Trailer Mass and Gross Trailer Mass) A car has a GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) Using the correct terminology helps avoid confusion.
Question:- Why do people stress over the Kerb Weight or Tare of a vehicle or caravan? You cannot usually legally change what is stamped on the vehicle and usually do not need to, especially after next years new regulations. come into play. As you suggest,the plated tare means little.My van has been uprated a couple of times,but still sports the original tare of 1740kg! Original GTM was 1960kg,but now is 3200kg.
You do however need to keep weights under axle group ratings and caravan GTM, ATM and Tow ball weight. Tare can be legally calculated in several ways at present (This may change next year).
A van mass produced may have a couple of vans weighted and then the remainder stamped the same. These vans usually end up at the dealer who then may add accessories and extras like extra solar and batteries etc. which will usually make the van weight above the plated levels. Alternatively individually ordered caravans are usually weighed after construction with all extras requested by the customer a part of the construction process included.
Dealers will then do pre-delivery checks and fill the gas bottles, hot water system and leave water in the plumbing lines etc.etc. The van that you pick up will rarely weight the same as the compliance plate at that stage. here is always confusion as to what is included in a delivered van for Tare weight. (Mattress etc. Don't stress it is normal.
Weight your van when it is 'fully loaded' for your trip, (including booze, water, tools, cloths bedding etc. etc) At this stage it should have load distributed correctly for balance and towing stability with approximately 10% of the total ball weight on the towball, and be under the GTM, ATM and Tow Ball weights. If not take stuff out.
Do the same for your tow vehicle including all occupants of the vehicle as they are weight also. Check the weight against the GVM, tow ball weight and axle weights etc on the compliance plate.
Good advice above....Overloading of the tow vehicle's rear axle is one of the biggest mistakes made by many people.Being under,or near,GVM seldom means weights are right,as,when a van is connected to the car,always weight is transferred from the front axle to the rear axle.This weight can never be safely returned to the front,even using the much-loved WDH,so must be deducted from the GVM figure.In most cases,when a van is connected,the weight applied to a car's rear axle is around 40-45% more than the towball weight.This means a 350kg towball weigh puts around 490-525kg onto the car's rear axle.
Check both weights (Tow vehicle and caravan) combined against the tow vehicle GCM. You should be under all plated weights.
ONE LAST COMMENT to those who advise to get a GVM upgrade on the tow vehicle to restore the towing capacity, this not correct. Not quite right!
Getting a GVM upgrade on the tow vehicle will REDUCE YOUR TOWING CAPACITY unless you also get a legal compliance plated GCM upgrade at the same time despite what is on some blogs and social media.
Not necessarily true.My car has factory GVM of 3300kg and GCM of 6800kg.If I connected a 3500kg van to the car, with 10% towball weight,I would have GTM of 3150kg and weight on car wheels (GVM if you like!) of 3170kg,for a total weight on wheels (GCM if you like) of 6320kg.The reason for the 3170kg GVM (?) figure is that the 350kg towball weight has taken 130kg off the car's front axle and transferred it to the rear.Thus,I have lost 130kg from my legal GVM.BUT....because my legal axle weights are 1480kg front and 2300kg rear,I upgraded my GVM to 3780kg,the combined axle weights. Still I have 6800kg GCM,but now I can actually reach this 6800kg figure,with 1350kg on the front axle,2300kg on the rear axle,and 3150kg on the van's axle group.All legal,all safe and NO WDH......but most importantly,the weight on the car wheels is more than the weight on the van's wheels.
You may be able to legally carry an extra 500kg on the tow vehicle but the tow vehicles original GCM will remain. If you load the tow vehicle to the new upgraded GVM you will have 500kg's LESS GCM so can only tow a smaller van at maximum load. (a van 500kg's lighter.
If safety is of ANY concern,there is no way that the current crop of 6000kg GCM twin-cab utes can tow much more than about 3100kg.
A GCM upgrade cannot be done in many states unless done prior to initial registration. The states vary so check your state laws and are they then recognised in other states. Check with Lovells Suspension who are leaders in this field.. It has to be a second stage of manufacture (pre initial registration) is some states.
Morning everyone,
Well the brain is still working while asleep. Got to thinking about our van and how Jayco came up with the lucky numbers on so many models in their range.
We know that new van's, are weighed empty for stamp duty on rego's.
Our van has a Tare Weight of 2061. A Gvm of 2475 leaving us with a 414 spare weight of just 414kg.
Our 2015 Jayco with fitted extra's to our van pre rego with a stated ball weight in their brochure 189kg. Ours pre rego 199kg. True weight gas bottles and water and food etc ball weight 245kg.
Jayco changed the Vin plate after we complained.
Sooooo the brain wakes up and says to itself, how about An Atm/Gvm on the van, so Old and myself can take along the must haves. an extra 400kg on the compliance plate would be nice to stay compliant.The van is fitted with Al-Co anti sway, breakway unit, and and has an identical undercarridge as the bigger silverline.
Yep same specs.
Our tow unit is a GX 200 series Landcruiser with ABS and sway control. With Gvm coming before our next trip.
So I Get on U Tube, and up pops a Queensland couple with a Corromal van and have their rig weighed by GVM Queensland.
60% of rigs weighed are OVER, according to the engineneer attending.
Going on what he checked they can Up their Atm by 400kg without changing components. He the engineer checked the wheels, tyres, chains, and other bits. Did the calulations and feed into his computer. A new compliance plate fitted onsite. Total 1.5 hours.
I will look into this further here in NSW.
Old and myself want to law abiding and safe to other road users.
Has anyone done the same.
Keep safe and well.
Grey
If you could post a photo of your van's compliance plate that would help us to give assistance.The biggest problem caravanners encounter with weights is the rear axle capacity of their car...please be aware that the much vaunted GVM upgrade on your car is next to useless,as you will spend thousands of dollars to increase the rear axle capacity from 1950kg to 2000kg.....yes,a miserable 50kg! Why would you even bother? Front axle capacity is of little concern,as,with a van in tow,you can never get that axle loaded to anywhere near its capacity.Cheers
My previous van was a 19'5 Fulcher Galaxy with a tare of 1800 kg and ATM of 2250 and I had ATM raised to 2800 in NSW .
The process was to take your van and get the axles suspension brakes and wheel and hubs checked by a blue slip registered mechanic and they will tell you if you can get an upgrade without any changing and what you need to do if need to change things.Lucky for me the van was under the maximum when registered as are many vans and the whole process only cost approx 80 dollars plus a new rego but that was five years ago .
Cheers
Yes, it would be nice to have a light weight van capable of carrying a heavy weight load. Other than incorporating a "sky hook", I don't know how to do it.
Have a look at the inside of your wheels - they will have two sets of numbers. Firstly the wheel size & off set AND the total load that can be carried. Mine are rated to 1000kg each - excluding the spare, I only have two wheels to carry the load! Your wheels may be the same & they are only available from Jayco agencies & cost (a couple of years ago) $340 each.
I'd love a heavier axle & springs to carry an extra 50kg or so but then I'd need new wheels & tyres too. Is it better to upgrade for $xxx or to sell & buy something else?
Hi Warren, Travleyounger and every one,
Yes I will get back to you shortly, as I have a second unused spare. Will get all the info and report back.
Thanks Grey
Hi everyone,
Well did some digging.
Pulled the original rego paper. States Tare Weight =2061, IMO BS.
GVM 2475 .Paid by Jayco as total deal.
So I followed everyone's request's.
The VIN plate replaced by Jayco Sydney on first return, early 2016.
The Vin Plate now reads as follows Tare left blank. Yep blank. Ball mass=199kg MaxBall Loading Left blank. = kg. GTM =2276 ATM=2475kg
Axle Group= 2667kg
We had this van beefed up a little In the factory build. Extended A frame by 300mm reinforced. Full length body rails to rear 125mm x 50mm x 4mm. 150mm x 50mm cross members.
Wheels 15 x6JJ -ET6/-
VIA 1060kg
Tyres LT235/75R 110/1075 A/T
Load Range D
Max Load @ 4 x 975kg at 65psi =3900kg
Hitch is AlKo 3500kg
Safety chains x 2 Rated @ PWB 4177- 3.5T
So is it safe to assume an extra 192kg in our favour.
Your views please.
Sorry getting back so late.
Grey
-- Edited by Old and Grey on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 09:16:37 AM
Until you talk to an engineer, and they advise if you can get an increase in ATM, and how much, you are stuck at what you have.
I am surprised by a couple of things, however. Firstly, Jayco policy has always been a load allowance of 475kg in en-suite tandems, and 400 in non en-suite tandems. Thus, as yours is below that, I assume there was some reason they couldnt go 475kg.
Secondly, the brochure weights are a guide only, as all vans are weighed after building, and will vary. The loaded weight of 249kgs seems reasonable based on ATM. Our tare TBW is 189kg, and loaded we are around 275kg. Well within the cars allowable TBW. I did have them remove the MaxTBW they had placed on our van, as it was well below car allowance, and not based on engineered van, but theoretical weights. They only did Max TBW for about 12 months before ceasing it.
I take it you have either a Silverline, or Starcraft Outback, as you say your undercarriage is the same as Silverline. I assume then you have the J Tech independent suspension.
Lastly, Jayco will not assist in increasing ATM, so you will need the engineer to do that.
Good luck getting ATM increased, but certainly dont assume it will be done, and enjoy it when it is done.
Morning Ian,
Our van is a Journey Outback with yes, the J-tect system.
Regards Grey
Since your axle group is rated at 2667kg and you have "beefed up" your van's chassis,there should be little problem having a qualified engineer increase your ATM to around 2900kg,a gain of 425kg. Assuming 10% towball weight,you would add around 420kg to your car's rear axle......the "achilles heel" of the ubiquitous LC200 is its lightweight rear axle.Factory rating is only 1950kg,but please be aware that the much vaunted GVM upgrade costs thousands of dollars,and increases the rear axle rating to only 2000kg......yes,a gain of a miserable 50kg! The first thing I'd be doing is visiting a weighbridge to get an idea of the actual tare of the van.....you may be surprised? Selective loading will help you get your towball weight up to around 290kg,or the generally accepted 10%,and at 2900kg ATM you would be very close to the maximum that an LC200 can SAFELY tow. Congratulations on taking your weights seriously,and asking for advice.....you no doubt will keep us informed of progress? I wish you only good luck with your project.Cheers
Hi Yobarr,
Thankyou you so much. We/I did get Jayco to build in the extra's, as down the track We planned to take our aluminium dingy with us on future trips. That equates to weight.
So the car will get a Gvm. We were told to wait a bit longer if we can, as things are heating up again on the Gvm frontline.
Many things I can build/ do myself. when it comes to certifitation, sorry Have to past on to the engineers.
Can you explane for me if the group axles =2667 how we can get to 2900kg. We would love to have this number up our sleeves. Not that we would need that number, but it would be piece of mind having so.
I just took the Ga mass 2667 from the atm 2475kg and said 192kg.
Thanks again Grey
Any ATM upgrade will be limited by the Axle Group Rating which is 2667kg unless there are other components rated below that.
As a matter of interest a van manufacturer is not legally required to stamp Tare or Ball weight on the Compliance Plate.
Hi Grey...I have assumed that when you posted "axle group 2667kg" you were quoting that figure from your compliance plate? It usually is listed as "axle/axle group load capacity" or similar,and is the maximum that can be carried on that axle group.Given that towball weight generally is accepted as 10% of ATM,this obviously leaves the other 90% of ATM to be carried by the axles! To minimuse confusion,I used 2900kg as an approximate figure for ATM,and this was calculated by dividing 2667kg (90% of ATM) by 9 and multiplying by 10.The exact figure is 2963kg.....IF the axles are indeed rated to carry 2667kg,and an engineer is happy with your "beefed up" chassis there should be little trouble getting ATM upgraded to 2900kg or so.I once upgraded an ATM from 2180kg to 3500kg,with little trouble,but because I had increased rim size from 15 to 16 and my GTM exceeded 2800kg,I had to fit 12 brake drums.No big deal,and not relevant to your situation.Could you confirm that "axle group 2667kg" is indeed the axle rating on your compliance plate....a photo always is a good option in situations such as this. Otherwise,different interpretations of figures can result in total confusion! Cheers
Hi Yobarr,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The little Lady wants the house painted. Been on the scaffold all day painting the dinning room. Have to earn brownie points for the Gvm.
The Jayco plate which I take as the VIN plate reads word for word : Axle Group Load Capacity 2667kg.
Is a compliance plate the same as the Vin plate OR should I be looking for another.
Thanks
Grey
You've done well,Grey! That is what I needed confirmation of.Now I can confirm that all my figures are correct,but I strongly suggest that you save the money you intend to spend on the GVM upgrade...thousands of dollars to gain 50kg? Sure,you will be able to get a percentage of the weight of your dinghy onto the front axle, but still your rear axle will be overloaded.Cheers
I would have doubts if any engineer would approve an ATM upgrade greater than the van's Axle Group Rating. You may convince him to take ball weight into account but he would then be approving an over rate unhitched van plus ball weight can be unreliable.
I believe you would be pushing the absolute limit and I would advise you talk to an engineer.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 06:48:38 PM
With respect,Montie,I have great respect for you,as you obviously are an erudite individual,but I believe that,in this case, you are 100% wrong.My GTM now is 3200kg,and ATM is 3500kg.Used to be 2180kg ATM,with 2800kg axle capacity.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 11th of August 2020 07:29:07 PM
You have done very well. Your ATM exceeds your Axle Group Rating by 700kg!
That's with a ball weight of 300kg.
Uncharacteristically,Montie,you seem not to have noticed that my NEW GTM, is 3200kg,which is my axle group rating,and that my ATM now is 3500kg? Earlier posts will have shown that,in order to get to 3200kg GTM with 16" wheels,I had to fit 12" brakes. Hope this clears things up for you?Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 12th of August 2020 06:42:01 PM
Yobarr,
GTM is the measured weight on the axles as transmitted to the ground and is the product of ATM minus Ball weight.
Axle Group Rating is set by the chassis manufacturer and in reality the only way you can increase GTM is to increase the Axle Group Rating which you may well have done.
Basically the GTM cannot legally exceed the Axle Group Rating.
Exactly! My axle group rating now is 3200kg,as is my GTM.With 350kg towball weight,I can run at only 3150kg on the van's axles,which is OK.My axle group rating was increased from 2800kg whilst I was increasing GVM to 3500kg. I am happy to forward to you photos of ny compliance plates,before and after GVM upgrade.Cheers.
As I stated earlier you have done well to get an Axle Group Rating upgraded by 400kg.
In my experience it is difficult to get an engineer's upgrade to ATM that exceeds the Axle Group Rating.
Hi, Just a couple of points.
The caravan should have a stamped ATM / GTM not GCM (Aggregate Trailer Mass and Gross Trailer Mass) A car has a GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) Using the correct terminology helps avoid confusion.
Question:- Why do people stress over the Kerb Weight or Tare of a vehicle or caravan? You cannot usually legally change what is stamped on the vehicle and usually do not need to, especially after next years new regulations. come into play.
You do however need to keep weights under axle group ratings and caravan GTM, ATM and Tow ball weight. Tare can be legally calculated in several ways at present (This may change next year).
A van mass produced may have a couple of vans weighted and then the remainder stamped the same. These vans usually end up at the dealer who then may add accessories and extras like extra solar and batteries etc. which will usually make the van weight above the plated levels. Alternatively individually ordered caravans are usually weighed after construction with all extras requested by the customer a part of the construction process included.
Dealers will then do pre-delivery checks and fill the gas bottles, hot water system and leave water in the plumbing lines etc.etc. The van that you pick up will rarely weight the same as the compliance plate at that stage. here is always confusion as to what is included in a delivered van for Tare weight. (Mattress etc. Don't stress it is normal.
Weight your van when it is 'fully loaded' for your trip, (including booze, water, tools, cloths bedding etc. etc) At this stage it should have load distributed correctly for balance and towing stability with approximately 10% of the total ball weight on the towball, and be under the GTM, ATM and Tow Ball weights. If not take stuff out.
Do the same for your tow vehicle including all occupants of the vehicle as they are weight also. Check the weight against the GVM, tow ball weight and axle weights etc on the compliance plate.
Check both weights (Tow vehicle and caravan) combined against the tow vehicle GCM. You should be under all plated weights.
ONE LAST COMMENT to those who advise to get a GVM upgrade on the tow vehicle to restore the towing capacity, this not correct.
Getting a GVM upgrade on the tow vehicle will REDUCE YOUR TOWING CAPACITY unless you also get a legal compliance plated GCM upgrade at the same time despite what is on some blogs and social media..
You may be able to legally carry an extra 500kg on the tow vehicle but the tow vehicles original GCM will remain. If you load the tow vehicle to the new upgraded GVM you will have 500kg's LESS GCM so can only tow a smaller van at maximum load. (a van 500kg's lighter.
A GCM upgrade cannot be done in many states unless done prior to initial registration. The states vary so check your state laws and are they then recognised in other states. Check with Lovells Suspension who are leaders in this field.. It has to be a second stage of manufacture (pre initial registration) is some states.
Cheers an stay safe everyone.
Ken
www.truckfriendly.com.au
Hi Ken....good post,but a couple of errors.Details later as my brother has just advised that it now is "Beer o'clock".Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 18th of August 2020 10:46:00 AM