I'm putting this up in the slim hope that the party concerned is a member and finally can see the light.
I was travelling near Gayndah (Qld) on a work trip this week. I came up to a car towing a fullwidth Jayco pop top at about 85 kph. I passed on a nice straight, and as I came alongside he started drifting into my lane. As i passed I noticed he didn't have any mirrors. Later on at Gayndah I came across him pulled up for lunch. I politely informed he should have towing mirrors, and this was required by law. He didn't have a rear view camera, by the way.
He said he didn't think it was necessary, that he could see enough. I told him that it was the road rules, and the constabulary would take a dim view if he was pulled over for any reason. I also know there was no way he could really see rearward properly - he had a Jeep GC the same as me, and I know from experience they need mirrors. He then told me he had a set in the car and "I'll have to put them on". I passed him again later that day, and again the next day - no mirrors. So he was just a stubborn old fool.
If that was you, please take everyone else's safety into concern rather than your own convenience.
Whenarewethere said
12:00 AM Nov 14, 2020
You will do your brain in if you try to solve all these problems, & may even come off second best if a situation escalates.
I wouldn't just focus on one's own vehicle.
Wanda said
08:52 AM Nov 14, 2020
Well you tried Nevd, not much else one can do unfortunately.
I probably would have done the same thing.
Lets just hope that at some stage he was noticed by the boys in blue and delt with accordingly.
regards
Ian
hufnpuf said
09:21 AM Nov 14, 2020
Nevd wrote:
He said he didn't think it was necessary, that he could see enough.
That's silly, it's not up to us to judge. Some person who has studied and is qualified to decide what is required for safety gets to judge. They've figured it all out and it's in the rules because they know what they are talking about. What does any average driver know about it?
My van is 2.16 wide and I can see down the sides with my ordinary mirrors, I don't seem to get much more vision out to the sides with the caravan mirrors but with the caravan mirrors, I can actually see if there are cars behind the van which I find useful. I like to know what is around and about me. What does that guy do when he hits the city and there are lanes with cars everywhere?
Moose2 said
12:32 PM Nov 14, 2020
Well why don't you just report the old bugger to the police? You got his number plate didn't you? Just tell them he almost ran you off the road...a bit of embellishment to get them to give him a warning/fine.
Wanda said
01:24 PM Nov 14, 2020
I don't think we are a coutry of "dobbers", well we never used to be, and I hope we don't become one.
Obviously in very serious matters that would be different.
regards
Ian
yobarr said
04:21 PM Nov 14, 2020
Wanda wrote:
I don't think we are a coutry of "dobbers", well we never used to be, and I hope we don't become one. Obviously in very serious matters that would be different. regards Ian
Hi Ian.....can we assume that you have included concerns for your own safety,and the safety of others,in your list of things you consider to be "serious matters"? From my many years driving long distances in heavy vehicles,I can say that very few caravanners have any idea what is going in behind them,mirrors or no mirrors.But you can be sure that Ma and Pa Kettle,who have been happily tootling along at 75km/hr for many kilometres,and have built up quite a line of cars and trucks by doing so,will suddenly be able to exceed 100km/hr when an overtaking lane appears,but when that lane ends,they'll drop back to 75km/hr.This has all been discussed before,but I will again provide a picture that illustrates what the legal requirements are with regard to towing-mirrors.Common sense really,but not too common these days! Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 14th of November 2020 05:21:44 PM
A while back I was at a c/p & a woman pulled in towing a full width caravan with a territory.
No towing mirrors.
After a while it got the better of me. During casual conversation I asked "why no mirrors ?"
The reply "I can see what's behind me on corners"
She was in her seventies. I don't think anything would have convinced her she should have towing mirrors.
Park manager had to guide her into her site.
Don't know how she'd get on if they said "no"
Cheers Pete
Greg 1 said
08:50 PM Nov 14, 2020
Regardless what reason they might have for not having towing mirrors, it is the LAW that they must be fitted.
It is like saying "but I was only a little bit drunk officer".
You are endangering yourself and everyone else on the road if you do not have adequate rearward vision, and I have no sympathy for them and wouldn't hesitate to dob them in. Arguing against a safety issue is like arguing against good health.
A good set of Millenco mirrors are only around the $130 mark so there is no excuse.
Long Weekend said
10:16 PM Nov 14, 2020
The comment by 'Wasn't me' reminds me of when my sister inherited a 16-ft caravan and went on several trips without mirrors. She told me that they checked behind every time they went around a curve using the standard door mirrors - she on left hand bends and he on right hand ones!
Later I gave them my strap-ons after I fitted Clear Views to our Ranger. However, I haven't heard from them since then.
I wonder how they would have managed crossing the Nullabor?
You can always tell when a towing vehicle doesn't have adequate mirrors - they turn their indicators on for a considerable distance so as to give following vehicles plenty of warning that they are about to change lanes.
If you do speak to them they will say something like: "We have driven right around Australia with no problems, so don't see why we need other mirrors!"
Murray
hako said
12:04 AM Nov 15, 2020
Does anyone actually know how 'the law' decides if your vehicle requires towing mirrors? The factory mirrors on my Territory are wider than the caravan I tow so do I need towing mirrors?
Good Luck
yobarr said
12:48 AM Nov 15, 2020
hako wrote:
Does anyone actually know how 'the law' decides if your vehicle requires towing mirrors? The factory mirrors on my Territory are wider than the caravan I tow so do I need towing mirrors?
Good Luck
Hi Denis...my earlier post clearly shows requirements.Cheers
Greg 1 said
01:56 AM Nov 15, 2020
As yobarr's diagram shows, you must have clear vision down each side of the trailer with no blind spots. If the trailer is narrow so that your standard mirrors give you the required field of view you are fine, but most vans require additional towing mirrors as the standard ones do not give you that required field.
Mike Harding said
06:22 AM Nov 15, 2020
Yobarr: that diagram is not correct, the standard mirrors on my Holden Trailblazer allow me to see the sidewalls of my caravan.
outlaw40 said
06:26 AM Nov 15, 2020
mr plod will stand at the rear corners of your van and look forward at your mirrors , if he cant see the driver from that position then the driver cant see the required are on the van ( refer to yobarrs diagram) He will then hand you a piece of paper that effectively states YOUR A MUPPET pay this and go buy some mirrors .
yobarr said
09:40 AM Nov 15, 2020
Mike Harding wrote:
Yobarr: that diagram is not correct, the standard mirrors on my Holden Trailblazer allow me to see the sidewalls of my caravan.
Hi Mike...please could you explain why my posted diagram is not correct? If your Trailblazer mirrors allow you to see both sides of your van,in their entirity,at the same time,you do not need towing mirrors.Possibly you have a narrow van,but I think my car is a bit wider than yours,and I still need towing mirrors.Steve's post,above,clearly explains the law,as does Greg's post.Cheers
Wanda said
11:10 AM Nov 15, 2020
Yobar,
You can assume anything you want, as you normal do.
God it must be hard being perfect!
Ian
iana said
11:22 AM Nov 15, 2020
Just looking at that diagram, it is not drawn correctly, For instance the view (blue) of the extended mirrors, is taken from their extreme outward point, But the view of the driving mirrors, is taken from some point about 600mm behind the driving mirrors, but also from the inboard point.
Of course this has been done to illustrate graphicly the requirement, but had it been drawn true, then the yellow shaded view would be less, and that's not taking into account the different mirrors fitted to vehicles as standard.
The reason for extended mirrors remains the same, if you cannot see back along the side of your trailer, you need the mirrors to be further outboard. I say trailer, because it applies to all towed vehicle.
BAZZA44 said
11:35 AM Nov 15, 2020
The diagram that yobarr has shown is absolutely correct It is from Vehicle Standard ( Australian Design Rule 14/02 )
It also states that the measurement from outside of mirror to outside of mirror, must be wider than the widest point on the van.
I think yobarr is owed an apology from some on here.
Barry
Greg 1 said
11:40 AM Nov 15, 2020
The diagram yobarr posted is correct. It shows the required field of view. You must be able to see the side wall of the trailer with your mirrors.
If your trailer is narrow enough, your standard mirrors may well pass muster, but most caravans will require additional or extendable mirrors to enable this field of view.
I know a number of people who have been pulled up by the constabulary for not having sufficient rearward view. It's just common sense to ensure you can keep tabs on what is behind you. Rear camera's are not considered a substitute either.
iana said
11:47 AM Nov 15, 2020
If you are commenting on my post, you didn't take the time to read it properly.
But if what you are saying is true, then anyone towing a flat bed trailer, (for carrying a car for instance), where you can see the view behind quite clearly, but you cannot see down the sides of the trailer, i.e. the mud guards and outer chassis sides, should by law have extended mirrors.
Moose2 said
12:09 PM Nov 15, 2020
Wanda wrote:
I don't think we are a coutry of "dobbers", well we never used to be, and I hope we don't become one. Obviously in very serious matters that would be different. regards Ian
I've only ever done it once...semi driver weaving all over the road, often on the wrong side of the road. Cop in next town took details and said he was off to intercept. Who knows...I may just have saved a life by dobbing.
iana said
12:28 PM Nov 15, 2020
FYI. https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2006L02663 Soak it up.
Interesting the legislation doesn't mention the side of the vehicle being visible, but the ground must be visible, that's if I read the gobbley-gock properly.
This would answer my own question, you do need extended mirrors to tow an unloaded car trailer.
-- Edited by iana on Sunday 15th of November 2020 12:30:27 PM
travelyounger said
12:47 PM Nov 15, 2020
I have clearveiw mirrors on my tug and when extended cannot see a road train behind me on a straight road thats where the rear camera is good .
I totally agree with yobarrs comments about the slow caravanners suddenly gaining speed up hills or when overtaken after speaking to many professional truck drivers they have all had this happen to them and I cant tell you their comments about the minority that do this but if your one of them one day your going to come of second best I myself have had more incidents with so called caravan drivers than trucks .
I would prefer them to be in front of me so I can sit back and enjoy the scenery
Cheers
Wanda said
12:53 PM Nov 15, 2020
Moose2, WHAT, a semi driver doing the WRONG thing, NEVER!........well according to some here. I also have had to report matters to the police, re 5 x hired motorhomes driven by foreign toursts, and likewise had serious concerns for both mine and other peoples safety on the road at the time. The point I was just making is I don't think we are or ever have been "dobbers" as such here in Aust, other than when "serious" issues are concerned. I guess peoples ideas on what is serious could be debated
regards
Ian
yobarr said
03:50 PM Nov 15, 2020
Moose2 wrote:
Wanda wrote:
I don't think we are a coutry of "dobbers", well we never used to be, and I hope we don't become one. Obviously in very serious matters that would be different. regards Ian
I've only ever done it once...semi driver weaving all over the road, often on the wrong side of the road. Cop in next town took details and said he was off to intercept. Who knows...I may just have saved a life by dobbing.
Photos 1) Kenworth from early 1970s 2) 70 series Landcruiser....GENUINE 3500kg towing PIG trailer
Hi Enzo....there is no problem with drivers 'dobbing' other drivers if they see something that they consider dangerous.However,there are a large number of people on our roads who have neither the experience nor the expertise to determine what is dangerous,and what is not.Many,many,years ago in WA I was dobbed in by a motorist who attested that I had run him off the road with my B Double while carrying out an overtaking manouvre,which was absolute garbage.However,the friendly policeman who stopped me 20km further down the road said that he would have to book me for Dangerous Driving because the car driver had "two witnesses" to confirm his story! Off to court we went,with me pleading "Not guilty,your honour" and being given a date for a trial.After obtaining the services of a lawyer,at a cost of $1500....a lot of money in those days...I again appeared before the court. This car driver got up and made all sorts of outlandish claims, dramatising an event that hadn't even taken place,and this performance was followed by 'evidence', from two children who had obviously been schooled in what to say.Because the "Dangerous driving" event had not occurred,I was not required to even take the stand,but the Magistrate quickly determined it all was a non-event,telling the motorist "You're wasting my time". No big deal,but I lost two days pay,plus $1500, because some clown who knew little about driving had dobbed me in.Driving on the wrong side of the road obviously is dangerous,and your report seems to have been justified,but when we get car drivers who rarely leave the city limits,telling professional truckies,many of whom drive 1000km/day,that the truckie's driving is "dangerous",there surely is a problem? And just for the record,83% of fatal accidents involving both a car and a truck,are caused by the car driver.Car drivers might average 25,000km/year,but many truckies drive over 300,000km/year.......and car drivers think they can tell truckies how to drive? Behave.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 15th of November 2020 08:15:48 PM
Wanda said
06:08 PM Nov 15, 2020
Get of your high horse, there are bad drivers, FULL STOP, and SOME of those bad drivers are heavy vehicle drivers and caravan drivers and male drivers and female drivers the list goes on,,,,,,,,,,, what percentage, who f.....g cares.
I repeat, GOD IT MUST BE HARD BEING perfect
Ian
Long Weekend said
08:12 PM Nov 15, 2020
Starting to get a bit nasty!
However, I would like to add that some police use a tape measure - across the back of the van then from inside edge of the two door mirrors. If the distance between the door mirrors is less than across the rear of the van then the driver gets a winning ticket with them being the ones paying out.
No arguing about angles, line of sight, etc. If the door mirrors don't extend past the width of the van, you pay up!
Murray
DMaxer said
07:58 AM Nov 16, 2020
I wonder if Linda Blair was towing a caravan whether she would need towing mirrors.
StewG said
11:45 AM Nov 16, 2020
When I first got my van which is fitted with a rear camera, I bought extended mirrors of the strap-on type. I found that the extra mirrors were more of a distraction because I then had five places to look (habits are hard to break) to see beside and behind me. Consequently, because the extra mirrors kept vibrating off, I removed them and felt far more comfortable with driving with the original mirrors that were almost, but not quite legal. I was not aware of the exact rule of law at the time and although I couldn't see the sides of the van on the straight, I had clear view behind and anyone standing close to the rear side of the van was visible - so only just missed the legal point. However, armed with the advice on this site and having read the applicable road law, new mirrors that clamp on have been purchased and an extra rear camera fitted to give a narrow view (longer distance) behind, I intend to not only be legal, but to also be able to admire the sides of the van when travelling. I'll still have 5 places to look (plus forward), but that's life. It just gets complicated.
I'm putting this up in the slim hope that the party concerned is a member and finally can see the light.
I was travelling near Gayndah (Qld) on a work trip this week. I came up to a car towing a fullwidth Jayco pop top at about 85 kph. I passed on a nice straight, and as I came alongside he started drifting into my lane. As i passed I noticed he didn't have any mirrors. Later on at Gayndah I came across him pulled up for lunch. I politely informed he should have towing mirrors, and this was required by law. He didn't have a rear view camera, by the way.
He said he didn't think it was necessary, that he could see enough. I told him that it was the road rules, and the constabulary would take a dim view if he was pulled over for any reason. I also know there was no way he could really see rearward properly - he had a Jeep GC the same as me, and I know from experience they need mirrors. He then told me he had a set in the car and "I'll have to put them on". I passed him again later that day, and again the next day - no mirrors. So he was just a stubborn old fool.
If that was you, please take everyone else's safety into concern rather than your own convenience.
You will do your brain in if you try to solve all these problems, & may even come off second best if a situation escalates.
I wouldn't just focus on one's own vehicle.
I probably would have done the same thing.
Lets just hope that at some stage he was noticed by the boys in blue and delt with accordingly.
regards
Ian
That's silly, it's not up to us to judge. Some person who has studied and is qualified to decide what is required for safety gets to judge. They've figured it all out and it's in the rules because they know what they are talking about. What does any average driver know about it?
My van is 2.16 wide and I can see down the sides with my ordinary mirrors, I don't seem to get much more vision out to the sides with the caravan mirrors but with the caravan mirrors, I can actually see if there are cars behind the van which I find useful. I like to know what is around and about me. What does that guy do when he hits the city and there are lanes with cars everywhere?
Well why don't you just report the old bugger to the police? You got his number plate didn't you? Just tell them he almost ran you off the road...a bit of embellishment to get them to give him a warning/fine.
Obviously in very serious matters that would be different.
regards
Ian
Hi Ian.....can we assume that you have included concerns for your own safety,and the safety of others,in your list of things you consider to be "serious matters"? From my many years driving long distances in heavy vehicles,I can say that very few caravanners have any idea what is going in behind them,mirrors or no mirrors.But you can be sure that Ma and Pa Kettle,who have been happily tootling along at 75km/hr for many kilometres,and have built up quite a line of cars and trucks by doing so,will suddenly be able to exceed 100km/hr when an overtaking lane appears,but when that lane ends,they'll drop back to 75km/hr.This has all been discussed before,but I will again provide a picture that illustrates what the legal requirements are with regard to towing-mirrors.Common sense really,but not too common these days! Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 14th of November 2020 05:21:44 PM
Later I gave them my strap-ons after I fitted Clear Views to our Ranger. However, I haven't heard from them since then.
I wonder how they would have managed crossing the Nullabor?
You can always tell when a towing vehicle doesn't have adequate mirrors - they turn their indicators on for a considerable distance so as to give following vehicles plenty of warning that they are about to change lanes.
If you do speak to them they will say something like: "We have driven right around Australia with no problems, so don't see why we need other mirrors!"
Murray
Good Luck
Hi Denis...my earlier post clearly shows requirements.Cheers
Yobarr: that diagram is not correct, the standard mirrors on my Holden Trailblazer allow me to see the sidewalls of my caravan.
Hi Mike...please could you explain why my posted diagram is not correct? If your Trailblazer mirrors allow you to see both sides of your van,in their entirity,at the same time,you do not need towing mirrors.Possibly you have a narrow van,but I think my car is a bit wider than yours,and I still need towing mirrors.Steve's post,above,clearly explains the law,as does Greg's post.Cheers
You can assume anything you want, as you normal do.
God it must be hard being perfect!
Ian
Of course this has been done to illustrate graphicly the requirement, but had it been drawn true, then the yellow shaded view would be less, and that's not taking into account the different mirrors fitted to vehicles as standard.
The reason for extended mirrors remains the same, if you cannot see back along the side of your trailer, you need the mirrors to be further outboard. I say trailer, because it applies to all towed vehicle.
It also states that the measurement from outside of mirror to outside of mirror, must be wider than the widest point on the van.
I think yobarr is owed an apology from some on here.
Barry
But if what you are saying is true, then anyone towing a flat bed trailer, (for carrying a car for instance), where you can see the view behind quite clearly, but you cannot see down the sides of the trailer, i.e. the mud guards and outer chassis sides, should by law have extended mirrors.
I've only ever done it once...semi driver weaving all over the road, often on the wrong side of the road. Cop in next town took details and said he was off to intercept. Who knows...I may just have saved a life by dobbing.
FYI. https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2006L02663 Soak it up.
Interesting the legislation doesn't mention the side of the vehicle being visible, but the ground must be visible, that's if I read the gobbley-gock properly.
This would answer my own question, you do need extended mirrors to tow an unloaded car trailer.
-- Edited by iana on Sunday 15th of November 2020 12:30:27 PM
Moose2,
........well according to some here.
WHAT, a semi driver doing the WRONG thing, NEVER!
I also have had to report matters to the police, re 5 x hired motorhomes driven by foreign toursts, and likewise had serious concerns for both mine and other peoples safety on the road at the time.
The point I was just making is I don't think we are or ever have been "dobbers" as such here in Aust, other than when "serious" issues are concerned.
I guess peoples ideas on what is serious could be debated
regards
Ian
Hi Enzo....there is no problem with drivers 'dobbing' other drivers if they see something that they consider dangerous.However,there are a large number of people on our roads who have neither the experience nor the expertise to determine what is dangerous,and what is not.Many,many,years ago in WA I was dobbed in by a motorist who attested that I had run him off the road with my B Double while carrying out an overtaking manouvre,which was absolute garbage.However,the friendly policeman who stopped me 20km further down the road said that he would have to book me for Dangerous Driving because the car driver had "two witnesses" to confirm his story! Off to court we went,with me pleading "Not guilty,your honour" and being given a date for a trial.After obtaining the services of a lawyer,at a cost of $1500....a lot of money in those days...I again appeared before the court. This car driver got up and made all sorts of outlandish claims, dramatising an event that hadn't even taken place,and this performance was followed by 'evidence', from two children who had obviously been schooled in what to say.Because the "Dangerous driving" event had not occurred,I was not required to even take the stand,but the Magistrate quickly determined it all was a non-event,telling the motorist "You're wasting my time". No big deal,but I lost two days pay,plus $1500, because some clown who knew little about driving had dobbed me in.Driving on the wrong side of the road obviously is dangerous,and your report seems to have been justified,but when we get car drivers who rarely leave the city limits,telling professional truckies,many of whom drive 1000km/day,that the truckie's driving is "dangerous",there surely is a problem? And just for the record,83% of fatal accidents involving both a car and a truck,are caused by the car driver.Car drivers might average 25,000km/year,but many truckies drive over 300,000km/year.......and car drivers think they can tell truckies how to drive? Behave.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 15th of November 2020 08:15:48 PM
I repeat, GOD IT MUST BE HARD BEING perfect
Ian
However, I would like to add that some police use a tape measure - across the back of the van then from inside edge of the two door mirrors. If the distance between the door mirrors is less than across the rear of the van then the driver gets a winning ticket with them being the ones paying out.
No arguing about angles, line of sight, etc. If the door mirrors don't extend past the width of the van, you pay up!
Murray
Another clear read about the law is here:
rveethereyet.com/truth-towing-mirrors/