Hello All,

I had a quick look and didn't see anything jump out at me, so i have made up a simple to use spreadsheet that calculates all the mass's in regards to your car, axle weights and caravan to simply see if your legal or not.

Its currently set up for a 2019 VX landcruiser 200 series and a JB Scorpion Sting 22"4 but you can alter anything in "Green" to suit your tow vehicle and caravan. 

Some people may find this completely useless but for me it helped explain a few things as it came about when deciding if i needed a GVM upgrade or not. Simply put, way back when i was very green about these sorts of things i ordered a GVM upgrade, only to cancel the order a week later as i was informed a "post registration" GVM upgrade did not up-rate your GCM in WA, only "pre registration" GVM upgrades. Long story short i had been calculating the GCM of the setup including the tow ball mass which was incorrect, meaning the day after cancelling the order i was back on the phone re-ordering the upgrade as i realized with the GVM upgrade i would achieve a further 300kg of allowable weight. I am not planning on using it to the limit but as it stood, i was essentially on or even over my GVM with my standard setup.


Please have a play around and let me know any feedback, things wrong, things good, things that need improvement, or just delete the thread altogether :D

NB - Axle loads are calculated via a simple formula but may still not be 100% true based on location of items in the car but it will give you a close enough readout.

Hi Brad...welcome to the forum,and congratulations on taking your weights seriously. There are a couple of things that jumped out at me when I glanced at your figures.The first is that,at 300kg,your towball weight is too low,as the generally accepted towball weight is 10% of ATM,or 350kg+/-. in this case.The second is that your TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitch point) is waaay too short,and this immediately affects your calculations,particularly the weight on your car's rear axle. Because these cars have a very short wheelbase and a big TBO,a 350kg ball weight adds over 500kg to your car's rear axle,with around 170kg being removed from the front axle,and transferred to the rear axle.The 3800kg GVM upgrade is a great thing for those who simply want to fully load their car to go touring,but it is of very little benefit for those who are hoping to carry more in their car when towing,as the rear axle is the weak point.That axle's carrying capacity is increased by a miserable  50kg from the standard 1950kg standard factory rating,to a new rating of only 2000kg!....lots of money to gain 50kg. Anyway,congratulations on creating your calculator, which I am sure will be beneficial to many once you sort it.....because I am not flash on computers,I can't even make it work! Simply put,an LC200 can never safely tow a 3500kg ATM van.Cheers

Thanks yobarr, our caravan tows beautifully fully Laden and have done some 15,000km so far with it and the cruiser as a pair, no wdh etc through winding, undulating forests to flat desert highways. The tare towball weight is 230kg with a tare caravan weight of 2960 so it's physically unachievable to get 350 without bolting steel to the draw bar. It does have alko sway control but doubt it's ever been activated. I understand your rule of thumb and have read mentions on it on many forums and many trust it, but as far as I'm concerned my first hand experience with it says other wise. I beleive that it's really more a case by case scenario with weights and tow ball weights as all caravans behave differently.

As mentioned in original post I don't load it up to max, the gvm upgrade simply made me legal, and probably safer. 

The tow ball overhang distance was a guesstimate as I'm away at work, plan was to get tape measure out for all the distances as there estimates currently, but they are green so feel free to throw your own known distances in there for your own benefit. 

Cheers

yobarr wrote:

---

Hi Brad...welcome to the forum,and congratulations on taking your weights seriously. There are a couple of things that jumped out at me when I glanced at your figures.The first is that,at 300kg,your towball weight is too low,as the generally accepted towball weight is 10% of ATM,or 350kg+/-. in this case.The second is that your TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitch point) is waaay too short,and this immediately affects your calculations,particularly the weight on your car's rear axle. Because these cars have a very short wheelbase and a big TBO,a 350kg ball weight adds over 500kg to your car's rear axle,with around 170kg being removed from the front axle,and transferred to the rear axle.The 3800kg GVM upgrade is a great thing for those who simply want to fully load their car to go touring,but it is of very little benefit for those who are hoping to carry more in their car when towing,as the rear axle is the weak point.That axle's carrying capacity is increased by a miserable  50kg from the standard 1950kg standard factory rating,to a new rating of only 2000kg!....lots of money to gain 50kg. Anyway,congratulations on creating your calculator, which I am sure will be beneficial to many once you sort it.....because I am not flash on computers,I can't even make it work! Simply put,an LC200 can never safely tow a 3500kg ATM van.Cheers

 

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 Hi Yobarr,

You always state that 10% figure, but nowadays it can be anything from 7% to 10%. I too tow with a LC200 and have never had a problem in 80,000k of towing with it.

My van is 2500kg at Tare with 190 kg plated towball weight, at ATM of 3200 kg my towball weight was 245 kg, with 3 water tanks full etc...........weighed in the yard in front of me.

That's around 8%, which puts all your figures out. All vans for sale now have different percentages than the standard 10%, some even put the spare on the A frame to add more weight.

Just saying anyway, most LC200 owners wouldn't swap for dual cab that is rated to 3500 kg.

Cheers Bob

Maccanak wrote:

---

Hello All,

I had a quick look and didn't see anything jump out at me, so i have made up a simple to use spreadsheet that calculates all the mass's in regards to your car, axle weights and caravan to simply see if your legal or not.

....


Please have a play around and let me know any feedback, things wrong, things good, things that need improvement, or just delete the thread altogether :D

NB - Axle loads are calculated via a simple formula but may still not be 100% true based on location of items in the car but it will give you a close enough readout.

---

Welcome to this place where you can get a heap of good advice as well as some long since debunked furphies....

Weights seem to be a bit of a vexed question that so few people, including me, really understand. I tend to get around it by hitting a weighbridge to make sure I'm legal.

Thanks for putting the time and effort into the spreadsheet and tomorrow I'll have a bit of a play and see if the results match the weighbridge tickets I have.

To Yobarr, I do not understand your statement re 200 not being able to safely tow 3500kg, can you specify why?, many do tow huge weights and love them. By the way what weight do you tow with what vehicle?

vince56 wrote:

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To Yobarr, I do not understand your statement re 200 not being able to safely tow 3500kg, can you specify why?, many do tow huge weights and love them. By the way what weight do you tow with what vehicle?

-- Edited by vince56 on Tuesday 17th of November 2020 08:17:02 AM

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 Hi Vince....Later today I will try to find time to explain why an LC200 cannot safely tow 3500kg ATM as a PIG trailer.(Van). It all centres around the lightweight rear axle,which is rated at a miserable 2000kg,even after a 3800kg GVM upgrade.Cheers

Good Morning All.

I also have a 2013, 200 series, and my van has a Tare of 2200kg's.

My towball weight is 110kg's

I've just ticked over 95000km's since my build in 2015 and my van tows beautifully, I mostly sit on 100kms/hr and with cruise control activated.

My last trip to Broome in July this year; the cruiser weighed in at 3100kgs; loaded. Full tank of fuel, 2 adults, Engel etc. The Van weighed in at 2700.

I think I'm legal. Am I correct?

Regards.

Hetho.

Hetho wrote:

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Good Morning All.

I also have a 2013, 200 series, and my van has a Tare of 2200kg's.

My towball weight is 110kg's

I've just ticked over 95000km's since my build in 2015 and my van tows beautifully, I mostly sit on 100kms/hr and with cruise control activated.

My last trip to Broome in July this year; the cruiser weighed in at 3100kgs; loaded. Full tank of fuel, 2 adults, Engel etc. The Van weighed in at 2700.

I think I'm legal. Am I correct?

Regards.

Hetho.

---

G'day hetho, 

Did your cruiser weigh that with the van attached (not likely) cruiser gvm standard is 3350kg so your 250 under it, if your ball weight is around 200 when loaded your safe, I doubt your ball weight is 110 when van loaded, that will Be the tare weight.

Providing your van atm Is 2700 or more your also legal. (assume van was disconnected with tow ball on scales too)

Feel free to throw your weights into the spreadsheet to see if numbers correlate to the weigh bridge, would be good to see

From the owner's manual for my 18 month old Holden Trailblazer:
----
For single-axle trailers, the tow
ball load should be 10 % of the
loaded trailer weight. For heavy
trailers with more than one axle,
the tow ball load should be 5 % -
10 % of the loaded trailer weight.
----

The Cruiser was 3100 loaded, not connected to the van.

The Van as an ATM of 3500; and disconnected has a Towball weight of 110.

Regards.

Hetho.

Hetho wrote:

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The Cruiser was 3100 loaded, not connected to the van.

The Van as an ATM of 3500; and disconnected has a Towball weight of 110.

Regards.

Hetho.

---

 Provided your tow ball weight remains under 250kg your legal (unless you have a GVM upgrade)

Don't let yobar see your ball weight, he would have kittens 

Bobdown wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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Hi Brad...welcome to the forum,and congratulations on taking your weights seriously. There are a couple of things that jumped out at me when I glanced at your figures.The first is that,at 300kg,your towball weight is too low,as the generally accepted towball weight is 10% of ATM,or 350kg+/-. in this case.The second is that your TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitch point) is waaay too short,and this immediately affects your calculations,particularly the weight on your car's rear axle. Because these cars have a very short wheelbase and a big TBO,a 350kg ball weight adds over 500kg to your car's rear axle,with around 170kg being removed from the front axle,and transferred to the rear axle.The 3800kg GVM upgrade is a great thing for those who simply want to fully load their car to go touring,but it is of very little benefit for those who are hoping to carry more in their car when towing,as the rear axle is the weak point.That axle's carrying capacity is increased by a miserable  50kg from the standard 1950kg standard factory rating,to a new rating of only 2000kg!....lots of money to gain 50kg. Anyway,congratulations on creating your calculator, which I am sure will be beneficial to many once you sort it.....because I am not flash on computers,I can't even make it work! Simply put,an LC200 can never safely tow a 3500kg ATM van.Cheers

 

---

 Hi Yobarr,

You always state that 10% figure, but nowadays it can be anything from 7% to 10%. I too tow with a LC200 and have never had a problem in 80,000k of towing with it.

My van is 2500kg at Tare with 190 kg plated towball weight, at ATM of 3200 kg my towball weight was 245 kg, with 3 water tanks full etc...........weighed in the yard in front of me.

That's around 8%, which puts all your figures out. All vans for sale now have different percentages than the standard 10%, some even put the spare on the A frame to add more weight.

Just saying anyway, most LC200 owners wouldn't swap for dual cab that is rated to 3500 kg.

Cheers Bob

---

 Hu Bob...apologies for the delay in replying,but I have broken some bones in my hand,and have been in hospital.It is generally recognised that 10% of ATM is optimal towball weight if safety is of any concern. To understand this,you might like to access books written by Collyn Rivers,a noted expert on weights and dynamics,with over 60 years experience in this field.You say that your towball weight is 245kg "...weighed in the yard in front of me".How  was this figure obtained? The towball scales that many use are ridiculously inaccurate,in many cases.At one stage,I had four different models,with over 50kg variance between them.As you day,245kg is about 8% of your ATM,but your van,at 3200kg,is right on the safe limit for an LC200,as far as the rear axle loading is concerned,because,at 10%,your towball weight would add 500kg to the car's rear axle.You say that have "....never had a problem in 80,000km of towing with it" but I would suggest that this is more a result of good luck than it is of good management? The 200 is undoubtedly a great car...powerful,comfortable and reliable,but it will never safely tow more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer.There are a couple of other members that I must reply to,and I will explain more there.Cheers

markf wrote:

---

Maccanak wrote:

---

Hello All,

I had a quick look and didn't see anything jump out at me, so i have made up a simple to use spreadsheet that calculates all the mass's in regards to your car, axle weights and caravan to simply see if your legal or not.
...
Please have a play around and let me know any feedback, things wrong, things good, things that need improvement, or just delete the thread altogether :D

NB - Axle loads are calculated via a simple formula but may still not be 100% true based on location of items in the car but it will give you a close enough readout.

---

Welcome to this place where you can get a heap of good advice as well as some long since debunked furphies....

Weights seem to be a bit of a vexed question that so few people, including me, really understand. I tend to get around it by hitting a weighbridge to make sure I'm legal.

Thanks for putting the time and effort into the spreadsheet and tomorrow I'll have a bit of a play and see if the results match the weighbridge tickets I have.

---

 Mark,unless you know your car's axle weight limits,it's pointless knowing your car's all-up weight,or,indeed your combination's all-up weight.Very few people seem to have any understanding of rear axle weights limitations,or by how much any towball weight increases the axle weights.If you would like to post your weighbridge figures,and model of your car,I am happy to help.Cheers

vince56 wrote:

---

To Yobarr, I do not understand your statement re 200 not being able to safely tow 3500kg, can you specify why?, many do tow huge weights and love them. By the way what weight do you tow with what vehicle?

-- Edited by vince56 on Tuesday 17th of November 2020 08:17:02 AM

---

 Hi Vince...put bluntly,there is no way a 200 can safely tow a 3500kg van. It is generally accepted that,if safety is of any concern,towball weight should be 10% of ATM,or 350kg in this case.Because of a very short wheelbase,and a long TBO (towball overhang,or distance  from rear axle to hitch point),a 350kg towball weight adds over 520kg to the car's rear axle,and takes 170kg off  the front axle."Ah ha" they say "we'll use a WDH...that'll sort it". Wrong.A WDH removes weight from the rear axle,and transfers some of that weight to the  front axle,but the rest of the transferred weight goes onto the van's axle group.Immediately,you are over your 3500kg plated ATM because a WDH does not change towball weight. The BIG problem with the 200 is its lightweight rear axle,which has carrying capacity ex-factory of only 1950kg.The much vaunted GVM upgrade increases this to 2000kg....a miserable 50kg increase.Why would you even bother?  Weights for 200,from memory,as I am not at home to access records,are 1630kg front axle and 2750kg tare.To this 2750kg you must add fuel (130kg) towbar 40kg,maybe bullbar 70kg etc etc.Already you are up to almost 3000kg....still you have no driver,no passengers,no luggage,no tools,no beer,no towball weight and no hope! Add 350kg towball weight,and your front axle weight now drops to 1460kg,your rear axle is overloaded to extremes,the car is unsafe,and you're uninsured. There is no way that an LC200 can safely tow a 3500kg van as a PIG trailer.Hope this helps,but unfortunately there are likely to be some indignant responses from those who refuse to understand.Please feel free to ask any questions,and I will do my best to help.Cheers

iana wrote:

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Hi Maccanak, I will use your spread sheet for my setup. Thanks for the effort.

---

 Thanks, here is the latest rev that is easier to use and contains a few more figures such as GTM.

 I also have updated the file in first post 

Hi Yobarr,

Your calculations might be right for 350 kg TBW, but what if my 245 kg is correct......weighed in a dealers yard with a accurate looking machine.

So my added weight to the rear axle would be under 400kg, better than the 520 kg you mentioned.

So Mike has stated that the 10% rule applies to single axles and dual between 5% - 10%, so my 8% and Marks 7.7% are well within those parameters.

Hetho has a lower figure again, so maybe the rule of thumb is broken, just like your hand. 

I have read all your comments over the years and accept that you know what you are talking about, but you always start with that 350 kg (10%) figure which is distorting everyone else's weights.

Sorry that should be: 'Brad' I have used your spreadsheet to help a mate who is buying a new Prado.....well done.

Cheers Bob

Maccanak wrote:

---

Hi Yobarr,

with my calculation, @ 300kg tow ball load it has produced 433kg of mass on the rear axle at a distance of 4.12m from front axle.

You are right in saying that a 350kg tow ball weight will produce 506kg of mass to the rear axle.

In saying that i cant say i know many caravans that actually have the 10% rule, ive seen more single axle caravans have higher ball weights than most dual axle vans.

Our van is 9 meters in length with a tare of 2960kg and tare ball weight of 230kg, this is 7.77% of weight.
 Brad,surely you understand that ballweight at tare means absolutely NOTHING...zip,zero,zilch,nil,nada.

If i was to have a tow ball weight of 350kg, with the current GVM upgrade (Lovells 3.8t), even with all my gear in the car it is still under the "legal" limit of 2000kg at 1998kg. Not only this but the tug would be weighing in at 3450kg which is above the van at GTM of 3150kg and ide feel much safer in a tug that's 300kg heavier than the van than vice versa.

Of course you would not want to load it to ultra limit but i think saying that a LC200 cannot safely tow a 3500kg van is a bit hearsay . It would be in fact, probably one of the safest cars to tow 3500kg without stepping up to an American truck (as you may not make it to the next camp site due to mechanical issues :D).

---

Brad,please understand that nothing I ever say concerning weights is "hearsay",but is a result of personal experience and an understanding of basic physics.With 350kg towball weight there is no way known that your rear axle could weigh only 1998kg with "all my gear" all my gear in the car" unless "all my gear" consisted of almost nothing. Please refer to my post above for rough idea of added weight,but this list is nowhere near  exhaustive.And how did you measure these weights anyway,given that weighbridges generally work in 20kg increments? You say that you're "weighing in at 3450kg",which means that there is 1450kg on the front axle when the van is attached.This means that before the van was attached,the front axle weighed 1606kg (1450kg plus 156kg transferred weight) which is very hard to achieve,as it is difficult to get any extra weight ahead of the rear seats.However,it is great to see that you understand that always the weight on the car's wheels should be 10% greater  than the weight on the van's wheels if safety is of any concern. I congratulate you on creating your formulae,but I think you will find that in a real life situation,at a weighbridge,they won't stack up.....too many variables.Unfortunately,it is likely that your figures will give added hope to a number of people who may suspect that they are overloaded,and are looking for some reassurance,but the real-life situation could be completely different.Your figures look nice on paper,but are too exact to have been  obtained from actual weighings.When I once saw a 200 which was towing  a van,and sitting very low at the rear,I asked the owner what his ball weight was,but he had no idea."Done a million (sic) km,no problems" he proudly told us. Weighbridge showed ball weight at over 500kg....like many,he didn't care.Ignorance is bliss.Cheers

Cheers

Bobdown wrote:

---

Hi Yobarr,

Your calculations might be right for 350 kg TBW, but what if my 245 kg is correct......weighed in a dealers yard with a accurate looking machine.

Hi Bob.....the "accurate looking machine" may indeed be right,but to check it,you could use bathroom scales.Nothing os more accurate.....perhaps the machine is calibrated to suit any situation? I'll say no more on that,but I've seen many strange things over the years.With GTM of 2950kg behind a car with weight on wheels of,if loaded,say 3350kg,you're pretty well right,but again I will say...the ball weight is too low! Another thing to consider is that you will not always have 3 tanks of water,so your ball weight will change accordingly.I have heard of cars losing traction whilst climbing steep hills after all the water in the half-filled tanks rushed to the rear of the van,taking ball weight away.

So my added weight to the rear axle would be under 400kg, better than the 520 kg you mentioned.

So Mike has stated that the 10% rule applies to single axles and dual between 5% - 10%, so my 8% and Marks 7.7% are well within those parameters.

Mike's figures come from the owners manual of a car with rear axle capacity of a very low 1600kg.Do you really think they're going to say he should run 300kg ball weight? (10%)

Hetho has a lower figure again, so maybe the rule of thumb is broken, just like your hand. 

I was yet to get to Hetho's situation,but I very much doubt that the 110kg ball weight quoted is a measured weight,rather the weight on the compliance plate.Gary's posts lead me to believe that he is a man of some intelligence,and I would doubt that he is running at 4% towball weight? Doing so would be an exercise in absolute stupidity.

I have read all your comments over the years and accept that you know what you are talking about, but you always start with that 350 kg (10%) figure which is distorting everyone else's weights.

Thanks for those kind words Bob.The reason I start at 10% ball weight is that that is the ball weight considered most safe by those with any understanding of weights.It is human nature for people to want to to juggle their figures to suit their own situation,and kid themselves that they're safe and legal,but they're dreaming. You simply cannot change physics.

Mark I have used your spreadsheet to help a mate who is buying a new Prado.....well done.

PRADO!...make sure he understands that ball weight cannot exceed 180kg if the van's ATM is above 2500kg.(Unless they've fixed that problem of late?)

Cheers Bob

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Maccanak wrote:

---

I wouldn't have made the spreadsheet if i thought ignorance is bliss, front axle weight with no van is 1614kg, primarily due to aux battery setup and bull bar along with the missus and myself not far back from the front wheels and rear seats removed and minimal gear in the back.

Hi Brad...OK,so you're running 1614kg on the front axle,which is very close to my calculated weight of 1606kg.When you hook up a van with 350kg ball weight,instantly you add over 500kg to the car's rear axle,which now is up to over 1800kg ....but we still have not included a towbar or anything else in the back.Anyway,my brother just called to tell me that it is "Beer O'clock",so gotta go.I will be very interested in your weighbridge results,to compare them with mine.Dont forget your toolbox,spares etc...the list gies on,but gotta rush! Cheers

I agree that a weighbridge says it all and you will probably miss out on accounting for a lot of small items often forgotten about. As mentioned in the beginning it was to work out if i required a GVM upgrade and it became instantly obviously that i did, i will be going over the weighbridge just before Christmas and it will be good to finally have real numbers to work from.

I certainly do not intend anyone to use this spreadsheet so they can load there car and van to the eye balls but im sure at some point some one will, at least they are doing it knowingly and hopefully know the consequences. If that 500kg ball weight fella had seen such a spreadsheet and for laughs decided to input his data only to see his axle mass was 280kg above the limit he may have thought twice.

This guy is a multi-millionaire,and tows his van on business trips simply to avoid having to pay for motels!

Toyota state kerb weights also which already includes a tank of fuel. At the weighbridge OEM front axle weight is 1460kg front and rear is 1300kg (GXL) so can add a few kegs for VX/Sahara.

Agreed....we're on the same page here!

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yobarr wrote:

---

Mark I have used your spreadsheet to help a mate who is buying a new Prado.....well done.

PRADO!...make sure he understands that ball weight cannot exceed 180kg if the van's ATM is above 2500kg.(Unless they've fixed that problem of late?)

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Bill B wrote:

---

yobarr wrote:

---

Mark I have used your spreadsheet to help a mate who is buying a new Prado.....well done.

PRADO!...make sure he understands that ball weight cannot exceed 180kg if the van's ATM is above 2500kg.(Unless they've fixed that problem of late?)

 

---

 

For someone who purports to know everything about towing weights, you just shot yourself in the foot.

Your comment above relates to a Pajero not a Prado

-- Edited by Bill B on Thursday 19th of November 2020 05:31:33 PM

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 Thankyou Bill,for bringing that to my attention.Been a hard day! Cheer