Only a few days ago there was a discussion here on wood rot in a caravans & Montie stated that most caravans built here have timber frames, mainly Meranti. This timber for decades has been used for house construction, furniture manufacture & yes, I've used it without thought of where it comes from & the ramifications for the thought of the a animals & birds that relied on those trees for food, shelter, reproduction.
We read, see via the media of the huge reduction of the Orangutans in SE Asia, where also the Meranti tree grows. Forest trees are being felled in large amounts to enable the local peoples to produce palm oil that also in of high demand by us in the developed world. Those people are also seeing their land being eroded as there is nothing left to hold the ground against heavy rain. Even our mighty Burdekin River here in North QLD produces quite a large bloom out into the Coral Sea after heavy rain & hence on to the corals of the Great Barrier Reef.
The caravan industry is changing to meet the need to become greener, more energy efficient. Vans in the future will probably become lighter as we tow them with more fuel efficient cars, even electric cars - will they also reduce the need to build caravans using ever shrinking rainforest timbers, enabling the wildlife to live as nature intended.
No, I'm not a "Greeny" - just one person who has seen some of our own wildlife get on to the "Threatened or Endangered" lists by our actions.
diggerop said
09:38 AM Mar 8, 2021
About as ethical as using aluminum.
tea spoon said
09:44 AM Mar 8, 2021
in the future i think caravanning will be gone ...........as electric cars will be no good to tow vans ...........lots will end there days in caravan parks as semi permenant holiday use .......making a van light enuff to tow with an electric car i think not ......enjoy it now because it wont last,.......,,IMO
dogbox said
10:30 AM Mar 8, 2021
tea spoon wrote:
in the future i think caravanning will be gone ...........as electric cars will be no good to tow vans ...........lots will end there days in caravan parks as semi permenant holiday use .......making a van light enuff to tow with an electric car i think not ......enjoy it now because it wont last,.......,,IMO
there are a number of electric trucks out there now being tested ,so towing a caravan should be no problem as batteries get better and charging becomes more efficient the sky will be the limit
dogbox said
10:44 AM Mar 8, 2021
in days of old wagons were made of wood then they became obsolete as motorized transport superseded them some car/truck frames where made of wood as recently as the 50/60's as new more effective materials became available timber frames became obsolete . timber caravan frames will soon be a thing of the past ,the "green " angle will quicken the end of timber framed caravans. the same as timber frames in houses are being phased out and steel is becoming more common . when "green" steel becomes common timber frames will become obsolete.
The walls/floor/roof of my Snowy River SR-19 are made from synthetic composites sandwiched between two sheets of synthetic something else. It is light and provides good insulation and is a major reason I purchased this van as I did not want any timber in my van's frame.
Wood is a wonderful material for so many purposes but should have been discontinued for caravan frames years ago.
bgt said
10:50 AM Mar 8, 2021
We all need to be very careful about how "we" feel about this subject. It's ok for us to throw our hands in the air and say "no". But what about those who live there? Don't they deserve to aspire to our standard of living? Besides we aren't squeaky clean either so who are we to preach.
It's a very complicated problem with no easy answers.
My understanding is that Australia's (and probably most countries) electricity grid is nowhere near capable of supporting a large fleet of electric cars.
There are 20,000,000 vehicles in Oz; consider the energy (petrol/diesel) 5,000,000 of them use and then transfer that to the electricity grid - it would collapse. Additionally charging stations will need to be provided - lots of them! - and Oz is BIG.
And I *dread* to think what the cost of a new battery will be - probably the same or more than a new engine. I just sold my 2003 petrol Jackaroo with 250,000km, original engine still in excellent condition. I doubt a battery will last half that time.
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:29 AM Mar 8, 2021
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-may-soon-have-a-battery-that-can-last-a-million-miles/ https://evcharging.enelx.com/resources/blog/580-how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last The more interesting statistic comes from older Teslas. Those same cars that saw only a five percent loss in battery efficiency after the first 50,000 miles saw their battery decrease only another 5 percent in the next 100,000 miles. Most Tesla owners with cars that past an odometer reading of higher than 150,000 miles report that their Tesla still operates with 90 percent efficiency when it comes to the battery. Based on these metrics, the company can postulate that a Tesla with 500,000 miles on it would still be able to operate at a minimum of 80 percent efficiency.
There is no justification for using any timber in a caravan, especially "old growth".
Cheers,
Peter
Mike Harding said
11:43 AM Mar 8, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
The more interesting statistic comes from older Teslas. Those same cars that saw only a five percent loss in battery efficiency after the first 50,000 miles saw their battery decrease only another 5 percent in the next 100,000 miles.
My understanding is that lithium batteries begin to "die" from the moment of manufacture even when sitting in the warehouse so one must also look at the longevity of the battery in addition to its charge/discharge cycles.
Anyway, we're high-jacking this thread.
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:47 AM Mar 8, 2021
There is virtually zero timber in my 16 year old OKA motorhome build.
Nothing to rot twist or warp and the sandwich panels were made in Australia.
Cheers,
Peter
My understanding is that Australia's (and probably most countries) electricity grid is nowhere near capable of supporting a large fleet of electric cars.
There are 20,000,000 vehicles in Oz; consider the energy (petrol/diesel) 5,000,000 of them use and then transfer that to the electricity grid - it would collapse. Additionally charging stations will need to be provided - lots of them! - and Oz is BIG.
And I *dread* to think what the cost of a new battery will be - probably the same or more than a new engine. I just sold my 2003 petrol Jackaroo with 250,000km, original engine still in excellent condition. I doubt a battery will last half that time.
where is this extra capacity going to come from dams, the greens would protest , solar /wind the green already have stopped some because they where in some critters migration path , nuclear even bigger protests! coal old school ?
bgt said
12:43 PM Mar 8, 2021
If you live in the city EVs make some sense. But what if you live in a unit with no allocated parking or worse still street parking.
Lots of logistical hurdles to jump before EVs get more than a token percentage of the market.
But if all coal base load power is scrapped then what? How do 5 or 10 million cars charge over night? Then will the local grid network be robust enough?
Great to have dreams but dreams can easily turn to nightmares.
're wood frames? Manufactured timber frames can use plantation timber.
Bicyclecamper said
01:25 PM Mar 8, 2021
In taxis, batterries have to be changed every 4 years, regardless of their age or condition. In non commercial vehicles it is 5 years, and they cost, for hybrid vehicles $4000. So $10,000 plus for full electric wont be unheard of. What I have heard, is you will be able to lease the batteries, and this is where, they, the manufactures, will make extra money. All my previous vans were alum. framed, my current van is not, it was an oversight, when I bought it. I won't have another.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Monday 8th of March 2021 01:26:35 PM
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Monday 8th of March 2021 01:28:50 PM
Whenarewethere said
01:35 PM Mar 8, 2021
They need to scale down 45 tonne EV trucks for towing a caravan.
Hi people,
On electric vehicles, have a look at the USA made Rivian1T. It could be in Australia later this year, also Mr Musk said he's bringing out a "pick-up truck" for Australian conditions.
I saw the reviews on the Rivian & had considered keeping the Patrol until this one came available.
A friend in Townsville is making the most of driving his wife's new Tesla around - claims it has a 400km range (to Cairns, nearly to Mackay). Improvements will obviously be made as time goes on.
My first car was a Singer9 Sports - it had a timber frame (English Oak) - timber then may have been more easily worked & was possibly lighter than steel.
Just prior to writing my "tale of woe" above, we were watching a show that we recorded called something like "The earth from space". It concluded with an area (can't recall where it was) where local people were sick of landslides, their soil being washed away & they started replanting the trees again, stooping the segregation.
Hopefully newer technologies will help us in the present & future. I heard recently that aluminium is being smelted with renewable energy.
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:13 PM Mar 8, 2021
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
Hopefully newer technologies will help us in the present & future. I heard recently that aluminium is being smelted with renewable energy.
We are making judgements about technologies that are still in their infancy, but they will develop "over night". Think about the mobile telephone, how good it was and how much it cost just 20 years ago.
Gupta is proposing to make steel at Whyalla in SA using 100% renewable energy.
To supply the whole of Australia with solar energy requires a land area substantially less than the area of Melbourne. There is a proposal to build a solar farm on the Barkley Tablelands so supply Darwin and then 40% of Singapore's requirements. Australia could well become the new Saudi Arabia for world energy, exported as hydrogen or aluminium or steel or other energy intensive products.
One of the biggest problems is all of us old farts that want to live in the past. Our children and grand children are much more enlightened. Same goes for caravan materials and design.
I have no issues with renewables. The issues I have is the logistics and economics of achieving a renewable future. Sounds easy. Yes and technology will get us there. But at what cost? And it's not just economic costs. It's environmental cost. The nimby's think it's easy to cover someone else's back yard in solar panels. Or destroy vistas with wing turbines. The very environment they say they are saving. Double standards? The USA is filling big holes with used wind turbine blades simply because they have no other use. I'm yet to hear what happens with tens of thousands of old solar panels and flat batteries. Is recycling advancing at the same rate as the so called green energy business?
Plain Truth said
04:35 PM Mar 8, 2021
Just look at the solar 1 & 2 project in Daggett California,imagine the cost.They ran about 4 yrs each.Solar 2 could only supply 7,500 houses it was scrapped in 2009 after 10 yrs.of not producing energy
Just Google, "wind turbine blades cant be recycled".
Greystone said
05:40 PM Mar 8, 2021
This sounds like the debate horse and cart drivers had a century ago with the emerging automobile drivers. We all know how that ended!
Aussie1 said
08:30 PM Mar 8, 2021
Greystone wrote:
This sounds like the debate horse and cart drivers had a century ago with the emerging automobile drivers. We all know how that ended!
Yep, And God let us invent generators and all was good
Knightrider said
09:25 PM Mar 8, 2021
Just love all the hype around the 21st century "Buzz Words" - Eco Friendly, Sustainable, Renewable, Organic, Gluten Free, Green Energy, Disengaging from Mainstream, Transgendering, Binary gender and the list goes on. All I can say is - thank goodness life is not eternal.
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:24 PM Mar 8, 2021
bgt wrote:
Just Google, "wind turbine blades cant be recycled".
There would be 5,000 times the tonnage of tyres that are not recycled. Do you own a car?
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
10:46 PM Mar 8, 2021
A few hundred glass reinforced plastic yachts sitting out side our window. Whether it is GRP caravan, fan blade (including computer cooling fans) or boat it can be used in down graded products.
bgt said
10:14 AM Mar 9, 2021
Peter we are going to have EVs then without tyers?
Beside sidestepping the issue won't make green waste go away.
Simple fact is that we are going headlong into green energy with complete disregard for how we handle rusty towers. Worn out blades. Useless solar panels and tons of old batteries. But let's change the subject because we don't want to face the truth.
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:51 AM Mar 9, 2021
Everything is recyclable if it needs to be. It is only a question of what into and the dollars.
Again, people are cherry picking small issues from an emerging technology when there are more serious issues that they seem happy to forget.
Yes, I am sure that renewable energy and electric vehicles will introduce some new problems, but they will take away some huge ones at the same time.
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
11:51 AM Mar 9, 2021
I don't miss darkroom chemicals for film. Still surprised how quickly digital superseded film.
Recycling electronics needs to improve but it is better than chemicals poured down the drain.
Only a few days ago there was a discussion here on wood rot in a caravans & Montie stated that most caravans built here have timber frames, mainly Meranti. This timber for decades has been used for house construction, furniture manufacture & yes, I've used it without thought of where it comes from & the ramifications for the thought of the a animals & birds that relied on those trees for food, shelter, reproduction.
We read, see via the media of the huge reduction of the Orangutans in SE Asia, where also the Meranti tree grows. Forest trees are being felled in large amounts to enable the local peoples to produce palm oil that also in of high demand by us in the developed world. Those people are also seeing their land being eroded as there is nothing left to hold the ground against heavy rain. Even our mighty Burdekin River here in North QLD produces quite a large bloom out into the Coral Sea after heavy rain & hence on to the corals of the Great Barrier Reef.
The caravan industry is changing to meet the need to become greener, more energy efficient. Vans in the future will probably become lighter as we tow them with more fuel efficient cars, even electric cars - will they also reduce the need to build caravans using ever shrinking rainforest timbers, enabling the wildlife to live as nature intended.
No, I'm not a "Greeny" - just one person who has seen some of our own wildlife get on to the "Threatened or Endangered" lists by our actions.
there are a number of electric trucks out there now being tested ,so towing a caravan should be no problem as batteries get better and charging becomes more efficient the sky will be the limit
Cheers,
Peter
The walls/floor/roof of my Snowy River SR-19 are made from synthetic composites sandwiched between two sheets of synthetic something else. It is light and provides good insulation and is a major reason I purchased this van as I did not want any timber in my van's frame.
Wood is a wonderful material for so many purposes but should have been discontinued for caravan frames years ago.
My understanding is that Australia's (and probably most countries) electricity grid is nowhere near capable of supporting a large fleet of electric cars.
There are 20,000,000 vehicles in Oz; consider the energy (petrol/diesel) 5,000,000 of them use and then transfer that to the electricity grid - it would collapse. Additionally charging stations will need to be provided - lots of them! - and Oz is BIG.
And I *dread* to think what the cost of a new battery will be - probably the same or more than a new engine. I just sold my 2003 petrol Jackaroo with 250,000km, original engine still in excellent condition. I doubt a battery will last half that time.
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-may-soon-have-a-battery-that-can-last-a-million-miles/
https://evcharging.enelx.com/resources/blog/580-how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last
There is no justification for using any timber in a caravan, especially "old growth".
Cheers,
Peter
My understanding is that lithium batteries begin to "die" from the moment of manufacture even when sitting in the warehouse so one must also look at the longevity of the battery in addition to its charge/discharge cycles.
Anyway, we're high-jacking this thread.
Nothing to rot twist or warp and the sandwich panels were made in Australia.
Cheers,
Peter
where is this extra capacity going to come from dams, the greens would protest , solar /wind the green already have stopped some because they where in some critters migration path , nuclear even bigger protests! coal old school ?
In taxis, batterries have to be changed every 4 years, regardless of their age or condition. In non commercial vehicles it is 5 years, and they cost, for hybrid vehicles $4000. So $10,000 plus for full electric wont be unheard of. What I have heard, is you will be able to lease the batteries, and this is where, they, the manufactures, will make extra money. All my previous vans were alum. framed, my current van is not, it was an oversight, when I bought it. I won't have another.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Monday 8th of March 2021 01:26:35 PM
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Monday 8th of March 2021 01:28:50 PM
They need to scale down 45 tonne EV trucks for towing a caravan.
https://newatlas.com/komatsu-electric-dump-truck/51377/
On electric vehicles, have a look at the USA made Rivian1T. It could be in Australia later this year, also Mr Musk said he's bringing out a "pick-up truck" for Australian conditions.
I saw the reviews on the Rivian & had considered keeping the Patrol until this one came available.
A friend in Townsville is making the most of driving his wife's new Tesla around - claims it has a 400km range (to Cairns, nearly to Mackay). Improvements will obviously be made as time goes on.
My first car was a Singer9 Sports - it had a timber frame (English Oak) - timber then may have been more easily worked & was possibly lighter than steel.
Just prior to writing my "tale of woe" above, we were watching a show that we recorded called something like "The earth from space". It concluded with an area (can't recall where it was) where local people were sick of landslides, their soil being washed away & they started replanting the trees again, stooping the segregation.
Hopefully newer technologies will help us in the present & future. I heard recently that aluminium is being smelted with renewable energy.
We are making judgements about technologies that are still in their infancy, but they will develop "over night". Think about the mobile telephone, how good it was and how much it cost just 20 years ago.
Gupta is proposing to make steel at Whyalla in SA using 100% renewable energy.
To supply the whole of Australia with solar energy requires a land area substantially less than the area of Melbourne. There is a proposal to build a solar farm on the Barkley Tablelands so supply Darwin and then 40% of Singapore's requirements. Australia could well become the new Saudi Arabia for world energy, exported as hydrogen or aluminium or steel or other energy intensive products.
One of the biggest problems is all of us old farts that want to live in the past. Our children and grand children are much more enlightened. Same goes for caravan materials and design.
Cheers,
Peter
Just look at the solar 1 & 2 project in Daggett California,imagine the cost.They ran about 4 yrs each.Solar 2 could only supply 7,500 houses it was scrapped in 2009 after 10 yrs.of not producing energy
the tower was demolished.
Yep, And God let us invent generators and all was good
There would be 5,000 times the tonnage of tyres that are not recycled. Do you own a car?
Cheers,
Peter
A few hundred glass reinforced plastic yachts sitting out side our window. Whether it is GRP caravan, fan blade (including computer cooling fans) or boat it can be used in down graded products.
Again, people are cherry picking small issues from an emerging technology when there are more serious issues that they seem happy to forget.
Yes, I am sure that renewable energy and electric vehicles will introduce some new problems, but they will take away some huge ones at the same time.
Cheers,
Peter
I don't miss darkroom chemicals for film. Still surprised how quickly digital superseded film.
Recycling electronics needs to improve but it is better than chemicals poured down the drain.