Hi all. Hope you are well and coping with lockdown or just travelling free. Question for every person on an aged pension ? What do you think of the Morrison Governments push for a cashless pension card ??? Meaning we can only spend our well earned pension where they say. Helping big business and stopping our freedom to spend our money where we want. I worked and paid taxes for 50 plus years to earn my right to a pension. If they win the next election they will bring it in. What are the thoughts of my esteemed comrades ?
Gundog said
12:38 PM Oct 8, 2021
Where is you hear this Furphy.
markf said
12:53 PM Oct 8, 2021
Social media claptrap from mid 2020. At the time it was hosed down by politicians from all sides.
It was probably some harebrained idea hatched by some mental midget to try to garner more votes at the next election.
Bicyclecamper said
12:55 PM Oct 8, 2021
Gundog, they have been talking about this for 2 years, they are also considering Veterans as well and it was mentioned in the Veterans Newspaper, about 9 months ago. Their intent is to introduce it to everybody on government welfare, within two years after they win the next election. So if you want to be on the Welfare Card please vote them again this time round. Another place where you will find the articles about it is to do a search on Reddit Australia. Their is maybe 50 posts about it showing the government released Articles over the last 3 years.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Friday 8th of October 2021 12:59:01 PM
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Friday 8th of October 2021 01:20:35 PM
peatop said
01:08 PM Oct 8, 2021
I remember when they release the debit card for payments from dss(centrelink) they were given as an early payment which was the same as a counter cheque (payment at the counter) these were only valid in certain areas and you couldn't buy cigs or alcohol with them.
dogbox said
01:18 PM Oct 8, 2021
what will happen is fewer and fewer people will be entitled to an OAP due to them getting payed by their super funds, that they have been contributing to all their working lives . the more you earn/contribute the better your twilight years . the more people who are self funded ,the less impact any opposition will have at the ballot box. people who worked and contributed to super will be conditioned to thinking the OAP is just another welfare payment .
there is to much money in super for the polies not to be plotting to get their hands on a portion of it at sometime in the not to distant future
Bicyclecamper said
01:21 PM Oct 8, 2021
Well I seriously think if it is brought in, that it should be for all, not just the unemployed, family payments and disabled. Their is no justification for people on welfare to spend the taxpayers money on the Lotto, cigarettes and alcohol. Nor should you have a credit card, as The Indue card supplied will allow you to pay off the credit cards, but after the card is paid off, your credit card is cancelled. You will not be allowed to buy a car or caravan without their permission, nor spend the money anywhere which is not approved by them, and so it should be.
dogbox said
01:29 PM Oct 8, 2021
Bicyclecamper wrote:
Well I seriously think if it is brought in, that it should be for all, not just the unemployed, family payments and disabled. Their is no justification for people on welfare to spend the taxpayers money on the Lotto, cigarettes and alcohol. Nor should you have a credit card, as The Indue card supplied will allow you to pay off the credit cards, but after the card is paid off, your credit card is cancelled. You will not be allowed to buy a car or caravan without their permission, nor spend the money anywhere which is not approved by them, and so it should be.
see what happens when the ideas get floated ,we start to get conditioned to accept what is coming
Possum3 said
01:59 PM Oct 8, 2021
Leftist Bullsh1t tried last election to nil effect - Although I personally believe it would stop some of the current rorting - may even assist in dampening down the market in drugs and alcohol - just sayin.
Knightrider said
03:15 PM Oct 8, 2021
Interesting concept - entitled to a pension because you paid taxes all your life. I thought the taxes we paid all our working life helped fund Education, Hospitals, Security including Defence Forces, National Highways and a raft of other basic essentials that the Federal Government is responsible for in this country. I love this word "entitled" as it appears not to be limited to Millennials as constantly reported. but also to the older (pension) generation. As for the opinion about the Government restricting you as to where you can spend it, I suggest you stop talking to aliens.
dogbox said
04:28 PM Oct 8, 2021
Knightrider wrote:
Interesting concept - entitled to a pension because you paid taxes all your life. I thought the taxes we paid all our working life helped fund Education, Hospitals, Security including Defence Forces, National Highways and a raft of other basic essentials that the Federal Government is responsible for in this country. I love this word "entitled" as it appears not to be limited to Millennials as constantly reported. but also to the older (pension) generation. As for the opinion about the Government restricting you as to where you can spend it, I suggest you stop talking to aliens.
what a person pays in income tax would not even come close to covering the OAP let alone the concessions you get with the card. the national hyways was suppose to be covered by the 3x3 still paying ,an the hyways are real slow in coming, if your in NSW you pay a heap in tolls to fund any new road
Mike Harding said
04:57 PM Oct 8, 2021
dogbox wrote:
what a person pays in income tax would not even come close to covering the OAP let alone the concessions you get with the card.
Perhaps you are correct, I don't know but... my question is; are you adjusting for inflation in your rather wild statement?
Mike Harding said
05:04 PM Oct 8, 2021
Knightrider wrote:
Interesting concept - entitled to a pension because you paid taxes all your life. I thought the taxes we paid all our working life helped fund Education, Hospitals, Security including Defence Forces, National Highways and a raft of other basic essentials that the Federal Government is responsible for in this country.
So you thought our taxes did *not* contribute to pensions - in that case I wonder what you thought did fund them?
And, indeed, would you be in favour of childless couples not paying tax for educating their non existent children? Or people who don't become sick not paying for Medicare? Or...? You get the idea I imagine....
Either you want a welfare state or you don't.
Colin Penrose said
05:16 PM Oct 8, 2021
Back when the pension was first introduced, I think in the late 40s, a tax was put on incomes to pay for it. As far as I know that tax has never been repealed.
Also, keep it nice guys.
dogbox said
05:54 PM Oct 8, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
dogbox wrote:
what a person pays in income tax would not even come close to covering the OAP let alone the concessions you get with the card.
Perhaps you are correct, I don't know but... my question is; are you adjusting for inflation in your rather wild statement?
how much would a working person on wages pay in income tax ? $10,000- $15,000 per year in to days money ? what does a person get on a pension ?
just looked it up single pension 882.20 per fortnight or 1330 per couple per fortnight if that is right, my wild statement might be close to the money
-- Edited by dogbox on Friday 8th of October 2021 06:01:50 PM
Mike Harding said
05:57 PM Oct 8, 2021
Colin Penrose wrote:
Also, keep it nice guys.
Do try not to patronise, it's irritating.
Mike Harding said
06:03 PM Oct 8, 2021
dogbox wrote
dogbox wrote much would a working person on wages pay in income tax ? $10,000- $15,000 per year in to days money ? what does a person get on a pension ?
I have no idea and I don't believe you do either but you made the assertion so justify it or withdraw it!
Corndoggy said
06:07 PM Oct 8, 2021
Colin Penrose wrote:
Back when the pension was first introduced, I think in the late 40s, a tax was put on incomes to pay for it. As far as I know that tax has never been repealed. Also, keep it nice guys.
Just what I was going to say. Everyone paying taxes has had a percentage of their wage taken as a pension tax. It has never been removed, it has just been lumped in there with everything else. Most have no idea this is how its been. I've paid my pension tax for 45 odd years, like every other worker, yet come pension age, not a cent paid as a pension.
yobarr said
06:53 PM Oct 8, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
dogbox wrote
dogbox wrote much would a working person on wages pay in income tax ? $10,000- $15,000 per year in to days money ? what does a person get on a pension ?
I have no idea and I don't believe you do either but you made the assertion so justify it or withdraw it!
Mike,he asked three separate questions.There appears to be no assertion,and the last two questions are easily answered,but I can't be bothered at the moment.Cheers
dogbox said
08:01 PM Oct 8, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
dogbox wrote
dogbox wrote much would a working person on wages pay in income tax ? $10,000- $15,000 per year in to days money ? what does a person get on a pension ?
I have no idea and I don't believe you do either but you made the assertion so justify it or withdraw it!
assume average wage $ 75,000 per annum ? based on 38 hr week that would be approx $ 38 per hour
first $45001 tax payable $5092 next $ 30,000 at 32.5% = $9750 + $5092 = $ 14842 = 570.84 per fortnight
if single pension $882.20 per fortnight. less tax per fortnight (assuming $75,000 per annum/$2884.61 per fortnight)$ 570.84 = a short fall of 311.36 per fortnight if figures are roughly correct based on to days numbers someone might remember how much tax they paid in 1970 and compare it to what they get back as a OAP today assuming tax payed all went towards the pension which it does't. how long could you draw a pension till the bank was dry
roger roger back to you
oldbloke said
09:46 PM Oct 8, 2021
dogbox wrote:
what will happen is fewer and fewer people will be entitled to an OAP due to them getting payed by their super funds, that they have been contributing to all their working lives . the more you earn/contribute the better your twilight years . the more people who are self funded ,the less impact any opposition will have at the ballot box. people who worked and contributed to super will be conditioned to thinking the OAP is just another welfare payment . there is to much money in super for the polies not to be plotting to get their hands on a portion of it at sometime in the not to distant future
LNP is after it NOW. Even when the union run schemes give the best returns. LNP are just geady bastards.
Tried to get bankers on the board of union based super schemes. Trying to get control in the hands of LNP mates.
JeffRae said
10:11 PM Oct 8, 2021
Cashless pension card is available now in certain areas, you can opt in if you want
dorian said
08:46 AM Oct 9, 2021
Knightrider wrote:
Interesting concept - entitled to a pension because you paid taxes all your life.
These days people can expect to retire with adequate superannuation savings whereas the older generation did not universally have such expectations. Instead they reasonably expected that the taxes they had paid would have contributed to a properly managed pension system. This was the case in Europe, at least in the communist bloc. In fact I have no doubt that the size of the pension burden was used by successive governments to justify tax increases.
dogbox said
09:21 AM Oct 9, 2021
dorian wrote:
Knightrider wrote:
Interesting concept - entitled to a pension because you paid taxes all your life.
These days people can expect to retire with adequate superannuation savings whereas the older generation did not universally have such expectations. Instead they reasonably expected that the taxes they had paid would have contributed to a properly managed pension system. This was the case in Europe, at least in the communist bloc. In fact I have no doubt that the size of the pension burden was used by successive governments to justify tax increases.
people who are coming up to retirement age now (assuming they have worked since super became compulsory) could have a nest egg to supplement the OAP, the generations that are coming thru in future will probably find that their entailment to the OAP much reduced. the OAP may soon become another type of welfare payment for those with out enough super.
Colin Penrose said
09:24 AM Oct 9, 2021
Well, didnt I open a can of worms !!! Unfortunately some people don t like to just discuss things they want to deride others. Shame.
dogbox said
11:38 AM Oct 9, 2021
Colin Penrose wrote:
Well, didnt I open a can of worms !!! Unfortunately some people don t like to just discuss things they want to deride others. Shame.
the cashless pension card will most probably just be part of the cashless society and become inevitable . the covid situation may have just increased the pace a little, as you see a few places around that only accept cards . the younger people are all ready being conditioned to it ,it wasn't all that long ago DICK TRACY had a phone on his wrist now that phone on his wrist is a computer that can do a whole range of things that we as kids could only imagine , the rate at which thing are changing just keeps getting quicker an some people can't see/understand the changes coming, so they become defensive
Mike Harding said
02:37 PM Oct 9, 2021
dogbox wrote:
assume average wage $ 75,000 per annum ? based on 38 hr week that would be approx $ 38 per hour
first $45001 tax payable $5092 next $ 30,000 at 32.5% = $9750 + $5092 = $ 14842 = 570.84 per fortnight
if single pension $882.20 per fortnight. less tax per fortnight (assuming $75,000 per annum/$2884.61 per fortnight)$ 570.84 = a short fall of 311.36 per fortnight if figures are roughly correct based on to days numbers someone might remember how much tax they paid in 1970 and compare it to what they get back as a OAP today assuming tax payed all went towards the pension which it does't. how long could you draw a pension till the bank was dry
roger roger back to you
You're still not taking inflation, variations in interest rate or indirect taxes into account, in any event I suggest your argument is specious; it is clear most of the Western world, USA excepted, wants a welfare state society not a user pays one and indeed that is what has eventuated for many decades in all the Western countries. I am sure (I certainly hope) you would not argue for a user pays healthcare system?
The age pension in Oz is means tested and that is right and proper, the state should not be giving welfare to those who do not need it. Having said that ... it now occurs to me one could make the same argument about Medicare, if you have the funds how do you feel about paying all your medical bills?
Welfare is a difficult area with the devil in the detail but I *never* wish to live in society where good people suffer significant hardship because of bad luck or a few poor choices in life. If a society will not care for its weakest then it's not really a society it seem to me.
Mike Harding said
02:41 PM Oct 9, 2021
yobarr wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
dogbox wrote
dogbox wrote much would a working person on wages pay in income tax ? $10,000- $15,000 per year in to days money ? what does a person get on a pension ?
I have no idea and I don't believe you do either but you made the assertion so justify it or withdraw it!
Mike,he asked three separate questions.There appears to be no assertion,and the last two questions are easily answered,but I can't be bothered at the moment.Cheers
Oh Yobarr: dogbox made an assertion about the value of an individual's tax/pension in an earlier post.
Do try and keep up with the flow of the discussion, it's so disruptive if we have to explain everything time and again.
Mike Harding said
04:43 PM Oct 9, 2021
dogbox wrote:
see what happens when the ideas get floated ,we start to get conditioned to accept what is coming
I intended to pick up on this but forgot: an astute comment and something which has often worried me in recent years and especially with the ubiquitous spread of media et al.
It seems that once a proposition has been repeated many times it becomes a fact and I am reminded of a quotation I rather like:
----
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France [Jacques Anatole Thibault] (1844-1924)
----
Umpie1 said
05:54 PM Oct 9, 2021
For the uninitiated, taxpayers money becomes government money when it reaches the ATO. So leave us pensioner alone.
It was probably some harebrained idea hatched by some mental midget to try to garner more votes at the next election.
Gundog, they have been talking about this for 2 years, they are also considering Veterans as well and it was mentioned in the Veterans Newspaper, about 9 months ago. Their intent is to introduce it to everybody on government welfare, within two years after they win the next election. So if you want to be on the Welfare Card please vote them again this time round. Another place where you will find the articles about it is to do a search on Reddit Australia. Their is maybe 50 posts about it showing the government released Articles over the last 3 years.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Friday 8th of October 2021 12:59:01 PM
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Friday 8th of October 2021 01:20:35 PM
I remember when they release the debit card for payments from dss(centrelink) they were given as an early payment which was the same as a counter cheque (payment at the counter) these were only valid in certain areas and you couldn't buy cigs or alcohol with them.
there is to much money in super for the polies not to be plotting to get their hands on a portion of it at sometime in the not to distant future
see what happens when the ideas get floated ,we start to get conditioned to accept what is coming
Interesting concept - entitled to a pension because you paid taxes all your life. I thought the taxes we paid all our working life helped fund Education, Hospitals, Security including Defence Forces, National Highways and a raft of other basic essentials that the Federal Government is responsible for in this country. I love this word "entitled" as it appears not to be limited to Millennials as constantly reported. but also to the older (pension) generation. As for the opinion about the Government restricting you as to where you can spend it, I suggest you stop talking to aliens.
what a person pays in income tax would not even come close to covering the OAP let alone the concessions you get with the card.
the national hyways was suppose to be covered by the 3x3 still paying ,an the hyways are real slow in coming, if your in NSW you pay a heap in tolls to fund any new road
Perhaps you are correct, I don't know but... my question is; are you adjusting for inflation in your rather wild statement?
So you thought our taxes did *not* contribute to pensions - in that case I wonder what you thought did fund them?
And, indeed, would you be in favour of childless couples not paying tax for educating their non existent children? Or people who don't become sick not paying for Medicare? Or...? You get the idea I imagine....
Either you want a welfare state or you don't.
how much would a working person on wages pay in income tax ? $10,000- $15,000 per year in to days money ? what does a person get on a pension ? just looked it up single pension 882.20 per fortnight or 1330 per couple per fortnight if that is right, my wild statement might be close to the money
-- Edited by dogbox on Friday 8th of October 2021 06:01:50 PM
Do try not to patronise, it's irritating.
I have no idea and I don't believe you do either but you made the assertion so justify it or withdraw it!
Just what I was going to say. Everyone paying taxes has had a percentage of their wage taken as a pension tax. It has never been removed, it has just been lumped in there with everything else. Most have no idea this is how its been. I've paid my pension tax for 45 odd years, like every other worker, yet come pension age, not a cent paid as a pension.
Mike,he asked three separate questions.There appears to be no assertion,and the last two questions are easily answered,but I can't be bothered at the moment.Cheers
assume average wage $ 75,000 per annum ? based on 38 hr week that would be approx $ 38 per hour
first $45001 tax payable $5092 next $ 30,000 at 32.5% = $9750 + $5092 = $ 14842 = 570.84 per fortnight
if single pension $882.20 per fortnight. less tax per fortnight (assuming $75,000 per annum/$2884.61 per fortnight)$ 570.84 = a short fall of 311.36 per fortnight
if figures are roughly correct based on to days numbers someone might remember how much tax they paid in 1970 and compare it to what they get back as a OAP today assuming tax payed all went towards the pension which it does't. how long could you draw a pension till the bank was dry
roger roger back to you
LNP is after it NOW. Even when the union run schemes give the best returns. LNP are just geady bastards.
Tried to get bankers on the board of union based super schemes. Trying to get control in the hands of LNP mates.
These days people can expect to retire with adequate superannuation savings whereas the older generation did not universally have such expectations. Instead they reasonably expected that the taxes they had paid would have contributed to a properly managed pension system. This was the case in Europe, at least in the communist bloc. In fact I have no doubt that the size of the pension burden was used by successive governments to justify tax increases.
people who are coming up to retirement age now (assuming they have worked since super became compulsory) could have a nest egg to supplement the OAP, the generations that are coming thru in future will probably find that their entailment to the OAP much reduced. the OAP may soon become another type of welfare payment for those with out enough super.
the cashless pension card will most probably just be part of the cashless society and become inevitable . the covid situation may have just increased the pace a little, as you see a few places around that only accept cards .
the younger people are all ready being conditioned to it ,it wasn't all that long ago DICK TRACY had a phone on his wrist now that phone on his wrist is a computer that can do a whole range of things that we as kids could only imagine , the rate at which thing are changing just keeps getting quicker an some people can't see/understand the changes coming, so they become defensive
You're still not taking inflation, variations in interest rate or indirect taxes into account, in any event I suggest your argument is specious; it is clear most of the Western world, USA excepted, wants a welfare state society not a user pays one and indeed that is what has eventuated for many decades in all the Western countries. I am sure (I certainly hope) you would not argue for a user pays healthcare system?
The age pension in Oz is means tested and that is right and proper, the state should not be giving welfare to those who do not need it. Having said that ... it now occurs to me one could make the same argument about Medicare, if you have the funds how do you feel about paying all your medical bills?
Welfare is a difficult area with the devil in the detail but I *never* wish to live in society where good people suffer significant hardship because of bad luck or a few poor choices in life. If a society will not care for its weakest then it's not really a society it seem to me.
Oh Yobarr: dogbox made an assertion about the value of an individual's tax/pension in an earlier post.
Do try and keep up with the flow of the discussion, it's so disruptive if we have to explain everything time and again.
I intended to pick up on this but forgot: an astute comment and something which has often worried me in recent years and especially with the ubiquitous spread of media et al.
It seems that once a proposition has been repeated many times it becomes a fact and I am reminded of a quotation I rather like:
----
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
Anatole France [Jacques Anatole Thibault] (1844-1924)
----