Coming around to the idea of selling our towed beast, and purchasing a shorter and lighter van, from what I have seen at the caravan shows are:- The vans are nearly all the same design, and I suppose that's the way it is, being a box on wheels and to fit all we want inside them.
Bed at the front North South, that's OK, and that's the way it has to be, but storage under the bed being forward effecting ball weight, not a good idea.
Door opening from outside at the bed, the step is an ankle breaker if you have to get up at night, and when the door opens you see the bed and anyone in it. I don't like. Prefer the door at the opposite end of the van.
No bench space, just the top of the stove when the lids down, and a plastic cover to fit over the sink, why because there's a 190lt upright fridge taking up the room. Wouldn't it be better to have an under bench fridge, giving more bench space, and use portable fridges in the tow vehicle to overflow into? apart from the point that 40kg,s of weight is transferred to the tow vehicle, sounds a good idea to me.
We want an ensuite and prefer that to be at the opposite end of the van to the bed. Don't like the design where you walk through the ensuite to get to the bed "opps sorry, remain seated" .
The hybrids are the in design, blowed if I would want to cook outside with the mossies', flies and dust, not to mention heat, rain and wind.
Vans that are of short design (Hybrids) but full height just look wrong, I question stability?
Then there's the outside and underneath design, haven't got around to that yet, I like independent suspension, mainly because that's what I have now. Don't like all the junk that's attached forward on the "A" frame, seems to be the fashion, bit of blokie show! gotta do that to get sales.
Oh well keep looking.
tea spoon said
10:19 AM Nov 6, 2021
jees what a list to try and get ..i think yours is impossible .....you would be better of going to parks with accomidation and not towing i reacon ...
Are We Lost said
10:33 AM Nov 6, 2021
Everyone has their own priorities and I like a largish fridge.
My prime requirements were a large club lounge and full ensuite. My van has the lounge at the front, then entry, kitchen, then bed and ensuite across the back. To me, the ideal layout, although the east west bed may not suit some.
If you don't see layouts you like new, maybe look second hand.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 6th of November 2021 10:34:41 AM
Radar said
12:04 PM Nov 6, 2021
Door opening from outside at the bed, the step is an ankle breaker if you have to get up at night, and when the door opens you see the bed and anyone in it. I don't like. Prefer the door at the opposite end of the van.
Hi Jana.
We have a mid door model without a step well, works well with a double step.
Our caravan is a 6 metre model 2350 care and 2750 gross, the large frig is a bonus, almost makes leaving the 26kg portable frig at home.
Myself I like having the ensuite at the rear so I cannot see in to it. We make the bed up as we are getting up, so that area is always neat.
-- Edited by Radar on Saturday 6th of November 2021 01:57:53 PM
Whenarewethere said
01:12 PM Nov 6, 2021
iana wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to have an under bench fridge, giving more bench space,
A bit like this one in our unit?
Bicyclecamper said
01:14 PM Nov 6, 2021
We went the whole hog away from our c.van, back to a hardfloor camper, because, we like the out under the awning cooking, also, we liked the much cheaper fuel bill, from 24 lts/ 100km (Pathfinder) back to 8.5 lts ( Suzuki Vitara), and just changed the queen mattress over to the house mattress, as it is much lighter. This changed the economy down to 7.9 lts / 100km, and this is a big plus, for us, as pensioners, gives us more money to play with on our trips. We intentionally gave up the van, so we could get back out in the bush, and do what we really loved , proper camping. We have had this camper for a month, and have been away for 3 x 4 day weekends. The c.van, didn't go out once between October this year back to October last year. It was just a pain to lug it anywhere. What I am saying is like iana, each of us want to do it our own way. But my advice to iana, would be to get a custom built van, that way you will get exactly what you want.
Bobdown said
06:18 PM Nov 6, 2021
Ian,
With a front door, you can get more kitchen bench space and angled sink, fridge opposite, ensuite at rear and separate from bed.
There is the issue with being seen from the bed, there is a small screen (300mm) and the door opens forward so you can peek out before opening fully.
Iana, take a look at the Adria 402PH - small, light, cheap, and ticks most of your boxes.
The interior design makes very clever use of such a small footprint, and by adopting modern materials and construction techniques it only weighs 1600kg. In fact, if IKEA made caravans, I think this is what it'd look like!
-- Edited by Mamil on Saturday 6th of November 2021 06:58:59 PM
With a front door, you can get more kitchen bench space and angled sink, fridge opposite, ensuite at rear and separate from bed.
There is the issue with being seen from the bed, there is a small screen (300mm) and the door opens forward so you can peek out before opening fully.
Works ok for us.......Bob
____&&&&
I like that, can I ask the brand, a hint would do
Bobdown said
07:45 PM Nov 6, 2021
Radar wrote:
Bobdown wrote:
Ian,
With a front door, you can get more kitchen bench space and angled sink, fridge opposite, ensuite at rear and separate from bed.
There is the issue with being seen from the bed, there is a small screen (300mm) and the door opens forward so you can peek out before opening fully.
Works ok for us.......Bob
____&&&&
I like that, can I ask the brand, a hint would do
Radar, It's a Retreat Fraser 210C.........It was posted in Show us your Rig a few years ago under The Bald and The Beautiful, on page 4 now, sorry don't know how to put up link.
You can guess who is The Bald and who is The Beautiful out of me and Jayne,
iana said
12:53 PM Nov 7, 2021
Thanks for the replies, I really only posted for the subject to be a round table discussion. All of the features mentioned are with existing designs. I liked the Frasers, but supply is now the problem with all caravans. I note that vans seem to have load limitations, i.e. if you want to carry basic from home to a caravan park, but add a couple of tanks of water, a grey water system, extra batteries, extra solar panels and that's the ATM exceeded. Talking to sales reps it appears the limitation are the axles, and to get more load you have to up-grade the suspension and brakes on their standard design, that puts the price up, so the manufacturers are not all that keen on having a standard van with extra payload.
dieseltojo said
01:20 PM Nov 7, 2021
What ever is on the market it is never quite to suite every one. I met a bloke that ran a caravan club and been camping all over. His van was the sixth purposely built van that he owned over 40 years.
Claimed that was his last build and that every van had drawbacks not envisioned in its design.... Me I let the wife pick the colours and I pick the mechanics and workman-ship.
My end of the deal let us down a bit as the manufacture was what is known as a "brand best left alone".....But we still have the only new van we ever bought after I fixed the many problems.
But... the colours are great...
iana said
01:41 PM Nov 7, 2021
Interestingly enough, our present van ticks all of the boxes, except the fact its too big for doing short i.e. a couple of weeks away from home trips, and its too heavy for our vehicle to do by the letter of the law. So we're planning on selling, its a Jayco 24 ft Silverline, all set up for off the grid camping. We have just finished living full time (4 years) and have brought a life style villa, so our needs have changed. Will be very sad to see the Silverline go.
Peter_n_Margaret said
02:21 PM Nov 7, 2021
I am building a new light weight OKA motorhome, still working on the cab/chassis, but I build a crude 1/10th scale model so I can think of some of the aspects of the layout that are different to the existing OKA. Like the existing one, I will build full size cardboard and foam models of some aspects just to make sure it all works before making the real thing.
Agree, building a 1:10 scale model is the go. If you have printer you can even print a fold up model with the right colours, depending how well your system is calibrated. A lot easier than learning 3D which I do.
A Waeco 28L fridge for your caravan:
StewG said
12:02 PM Nov 8, 2021
Iana, you have pretty much described the interior layout of our JB 17'10'' (7.5m tip to tail) caravan. We found much the same designs for that size van before we bought ours in 2017 and yes there are limitations. The 'cafe' style seating means a crink in the neck for the person facing the rear when the watching the TV. We love the full size fridge. Don't like the lack of food preparation benches. Don't like towing the full size (off-road) van due to wind resistance. BUT, love not having to raise the roof when stopped; pull up anywhere for coffee and just jump inside. Rough roads and creek crossings are survivable and food preparation means a bit of planning and team work. Haven't broken an ankle yet on the step-down and not fussed who sees who in bed, although the right-hand hinge (from outside) lets the opening door tend to hide the bed occupant. We also carry a small fridge in the car and it has proven to be very useful for shopping trips in 40 degree temps and once when our van batteries died and nothing electrical worked in the van, but that is another story. We have also found, like other van owners that there can always be improvements made to the purchased van. I've made many improvements inside and out over the past four years. We're just itching to get away again from the world's longest lock-down city!
KJB said
12:09 PM Nov 8, 2021
StewG wrote:
Iana, you have pretty much described the interior layout of our JB 17'10'' (7.5m tip to tail) caravan. We found much the same designs for that size van before we bought ours in 2017 and yes there are limitations. The 'cafe' style seating means a crink in the neck for the person facing the rear when the watching the TV. We love the full size fridge. Don't like the lack of food preparation benches. Don't like towing the full size (off-road) van due to wind resistance. BUT, love not having to raise the roof when stopped; pull up anywhere for coffee and just jump inside. Rough roads and creek crossings are survivable and food preparation means a bit of planning and team work. Haven't broken an ankle yet on the step-down and not fussed who sees who in bed, although the right-hand hinge (from outside) lets the opening door tend to hide the bed occupant. We also carry a small fridge in the car and it has proven to be very useful for shopping trips in 40 degree temps and once when our van batteries died and nothing electrical worked in the van, but that is another story. We have also found, like other van owners that there can always be improvements made to the purchased van. I've made many improvements inside and out over the past four years. We're just itching to get away again from the world's longest lock-down city!
Most Layout Designs have been around for years (you can only do "so much" with the amount of room available ) ....humans a pretty adaptable to work and fit in with what ever the Layout is . Main thing is to get out there and use it ...... KB
Howsitgoingalright said
02:15 PM Nov 8, 2021
Interesting discussion. I decided I needed the ensuit, the bed and the seating all had to be at an end of the van. No other option appealed. Three ends? A triangle?
Yep. So I bought one with a slide out! It adds about 100 kg to an equivalent without a slide out.
Being in bed feels like it is in diferent room from the seating which is good sometimes and bad at other times. I hadn't expected that "feel" aspect to the arrangement. It feals like an appartment with the bed looking out a picture window over the dresser - but less like a cosy van. Good and bad. As others say, the most important thing is to get out there, get on the road and don't get hung up on what's best.
It does mean the van is long - 21 feet. And it is a solid. After 15 years in a Swan we wanted solid walls and love them in a storm and not so much when towing. We didn't enjoy setting up or packing down in rain or wind. No rocket science there. Good and bad again. Getting older, we really appreciated the a/c and the diesel heater on the lap just finished. 17k Km and very lucky to be out of Melbourne. Our kids hate us.
My theory, based on my engineering knoweldge of wind design, but pleased to hear other views, is the wind drag is all about the front profile. And wind drag is what makes towing hard - at least on the open road. So a high 16 foot van is going to drag as much as a 21 foot one anyway. We never once regretted having the big Swan over a shorter trailor with the same front profile. Once its behind you, its behind you.
The solution I went for was to find a powerful, economical tow car that would be great when unhitched. I hit on a 2015 ML 350 Merc with air suspension. Very lucky to be out of Melbourne and just did 17k Km with this arrangement. The ML 350 with air sus do a massive 270kb ball weight and an adequate 3.2ton max, 8ltr/100km on their own and are very cruisy. They are quite heavy, but not a large car. We carried a full size spare in the boot (and needed it at Lucky Bay). Fuel was between 17 and 20 lt/100km and dependant on the wind; even a cross wind. 18 seemed about average at 95 kim/hr, and 19 at 100 km unless the air was still or there was a wind behind. Drag is proportional to speed to the power of 3. They have a 6 cil. 190Kw 420 NM diesel motor so actually accelerating the weight, and top speed, was never an issue at all. Had a lot of get up and go for passing. Speed just affected fuel consumtion. I only saw 2 others being used as tow cars on the trip, and they were both pulling similar size vans.
I wonder how the 200 kW 450 NM motors V8 Landcuisers go with fuel towing. A mate with one told me he does 18ltrs/100 with nothin on the back. But maybe he was making that up? On our travels, they appeared by far the most common 21ft tow vehicle. I could never come at driving one of them around Melbourne between trips.
Peter_n_Margaret said
02:58 PM Nov 8, 2021
Howsitgoingalright wrote:
IMy theory, based on my engineering knoweldge of wind design, but pleased to hear other views, is the wind drag is all about the front profile.
Nup. Drag is about turbulence. Avoid turbulence, reduce drag. And the rear is more important than the front. Look at aircraft. Tapering the rear to near zero is critical.
Check out these 2 vehicles.....
The Canter on the right is 1m longer, same size (more modern) motor, 200mm higher, slightly narrower width, same tyres and 2T lighter than the OKA. It uses consistently 15% more fuel at the same speed than the OKA, due, we believe to the turbulence caused by the gap between the cab and the living area.
Coming around to the idea of selling our towed beast, and purchasing a shorter and lighter van, from what I have seen at the caravan shows are:- The vans are nearly all the same design, and I suppose that's the way it is, being a box on wheels and to fit all we want inside them.
Bed at the front North South, that's OK, and that's the way it has to be, but storage under the bed being forward effecting ball weight, not a good idea.
Door opening from outside at the bed, the step is an ankle breaker if you have to get up at night, and when the door opens you see the bed and anyone in it. I don't like. Prefer the door at the opposite end of the van.
No bench space, just the top of the stove when the lids down, and a plastic cover to fit over the sink, why because there's a 190lt upright fridge taking up the room. Wouldn't it be better to have an under bench fridge, giving more bench space, and use portable fridges in the tow vehicle to overflow into? apart from the point that 40kg,s of weight is transferred to the tow vehicle, sounds a good idea to me.
We want an ensuite and prefer that to be at the opposite end of the van to the bed. Don't like the design where you walk through the ensuite to get to the bed "opps sorry, remain seated"
.
The hybrids are the in design, blowed if I would want to cook outside with the mossies', flies and dust, not to mention heat, rain and wind.
Vans that are of short design (Hybrids) but full height just look wrong, I question stability?
Then there's the outside and underneath design, haven't got around to that yet, I like independent suspension, mainly because that's what I have now. Don't like all the junk that's attached forward on the "A" frame, seems to be the fashion, bit of blokie show! gotta do that to get sales.
Oh well keep looking.
Everyone has their own priorities and I like a largish fridge.
My prime requirements were a large club lounge and full ensuite. My van has the lounge at the front, then entry, kitchen, then bed and ensuite across the back. To me, the ideal layout, although the east west bed may not suit some.
If you don't see layouts you like new, maybe look second hand.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 6th of November 2021 10:34:41 AM
Door opening from outside at the bed, the step is an ankle breaker if you have to get up at night, and when the door opens you see the bed and anyone in it. I don't like. Prefer the door at the opposite end of the van.
Hi Jana.
We have a mid door model without a step well, works well with a double step.
Our caravan is a 6 metre model 2350 care and 2750 gross, the large frig is a bonus, almost makes leaving the 26kg portable frig at home.
Myself I like having the ensuite at the rear so I cannot see in to it. We make the bed up as we are getting up, so that area is always neat.
-- Edited by Radar on Saturday 6th of November 2021 01:57:53 PM
A bit like this one in our unit?
Ian,
With a front door, you can get more kitchen bench space and angled sink, fridge opposite, ensuite at rear and separate from bed.
There is the issue with being seen from the bed, there is a small screen (300mm) and the door opens forward so you can peek out before opening fully.
Works ok for us.......Bob
Iana, take a look at the Adria 402PH - small, light, cheap, and ticks most of your boxes.
The interior design makes very clever use of such a small footprint, and by adopting modern materials and construction techniques it only weighs 1600kg. In fact, if IKEA made caravans, I think this is what it'd look like!
-- Edited by Mamil on Saturday 6th of November 2021 06:58:59 PM
Radar, It's a Retreat Fraser 210C.........It was posted in Show us your Rig a few years ago under The Bald and The Beautiful, on page 4 now, sorry don't know how to put up link.
You can guess who is The Bald and who is The Beautiful out of me and Jayne,
What ever is on the market it is never quite to suite every one. I met a bloke that ran a caravan club and been camping all over. His van was the sixth purposely built van that he owned over 40 years.
Claimed that was his last build and that every van had drawbacks not envisioned in its design.... Me I let the wife pick the colours and I pick the mechanics and workman-ship.
My end of the deal let us down a bit as the manufacture was what is known as a "brand best left alone".....But we still have the only new van we ever bought after I fixed the many problems.
But... the colours are great...
I am building a new light weight OKA motorhome, still working on the cab/chassis, but I build a crude 1/10th scale model so I can think of some of the aspects of the layout that are different to the existing OKA.
Like the existing one, I will build full size cardboard and foam models of some aspects just to make sure it all works before making the real thing.
Cheers,
Peter
Agree, building a 1:10 scale model is the go. If you have printer you can even print a fold up model with the right colours, depending how well your system is calibrated. A lot easier than learning 3D which I do.
A Waeco 28L fridge for your caravan:
Most Layout Designs have been around for years (you can only do "so much" with the amount of room available ) ....humans a pretty adaptable to work and fit in with what ever the Layout is . Main thing is to get out there and use it ...... KB
Yep. So I bought one with a slide out! It adds about 100 kg to an equivalent without a slide out.
Being in bed feels like it is in diferent room from the seating which is good sometimes and bad at other times. I hadn't expected that "feel" aspect to the arrangement. It feals like an appartment with the bed looking out a picture window over the dresser - but less like a cosy van. Good and bad. As others say, the most important thing is to get out there, get on the road and don't get hung up on what's best.
It does mean the van is long - 21 feet. And it is a solid. After 15 years in a Swan we wanted solid walls and love them in a storm and not so much when towing. We didn't enjoy setting up or packing down in rain or wind. No rocket science there. Good and bad again. Getting older, we really appreciated the a/c and the diesel heater on the lap just finished. 17k Km and very lucky to be out of Melbourne. Our kids hate us.
My theory, based on my engineering knoweldge of wind design, but pleased to hear other views, is the wind drag is all about the front profile. And wind drag is what makes towing hard - at least on the open road. So a high 16 foot van is going to drag as much as a 21 foot one anyway. We never once regretted having the big Swan over a shorter trailor with the same front profile. Once its behind you, its behind you.
The solution I went for was to find a powerful, economical tow car that would be great when unhitched. I hit on a 2015 ML 350 Merc with air suspension. Very lucky to be out of Melbourne and just did 17k Km with this arrangement. The ML 350 with air sus do a massive 270kb ball weight and an adequate 3.2ton max, 8ltr/100km on their own and are very cruisy. They are quite heavy, but not a large car. We carried a full size spare in the boot (and needed it at Lucky Bay). Fuel was between 17 and 20 lt/100km and dependant on the wind; even a cross wind. 18 seemed about average at 95 kim/hr, and 19 at 100 km unless the air was still or there was a wind behind. Drag is proportional to speed to the power of 3. They have a 6 cil. 190Kw 420 NM diesel motor so actually accelerating the weight, and top speed, was never an issue at all. Had a lot of get up and go for passing. Speed just affected fuel consumtion. I only saw 2 others being used as tow cars on the trip, and they were both pulling similar size vans.
I wonder how the 200 kW 450 NM motors V8 Landcuisers go with fuel towing. A mate with one told me he does 18ltrs/100 with nothin on the back. But maybe he was making that up? On our travels, they appeared by far the most common 21ft tow vehicle. I could never come at driving one of them around Melbourne between trips.
Nup. Drag is about turbulence. Avoid turbulence, reduce drag. And the rear is more important than the front. Look at aircraft. Tapering the rear to near zero is critical.
Check out these 2 vehicles.....
The Canter on the right is 1m longer, same size (more modern) motor, 200mm higher, slightly narrower width, same tyres and 2T lighter than the OKA. It uses consistently 15% more fuel at the same speed than the OKA, due, we believe to the turbulence caused by the gap between the cab and the living area.
Cheers,
Peter