Hi all, we are looking at selling our van (timber frame) and want to go for an Aluminium Frame with composite panels Has anyone done any research on wether welded or riveted is better.Now keeping in mind, we will not be doing any extreme off-road, but certainly roads like the Gibb, the Cape etc
-- Edited by Branchie on Sunday 19th of December 2021 11:37:51 AM
iana said
01:34 PM Dec 19, 2021
I take it that the frame is aluminum square hollow tube. Are the rivets solid or Tucker pop rivets, are they aluminum rivets or steel. Are the square sections only welded on two sides, or are they welded right around. I would choose neither, but go full composite and glued.
Peter_n_Margaret said
02:49 PM Dec 19, 2021
If you have good quality composite panels with closed cell polyurethane foam core, they need no frame.
Stronger, lighter, better insulation.
Aluminium is wonderful material, BUT if the engineering is not superb, fatigue failures can be a major issue, particularly where it is joined. It also conducts heat extermely well.
Cheers,
Peter
Gus1949 said
02:55 PM Dec 21, 2021
If you are looking at manufacturers with a reputation for build quality it wont matter if they are welded or riveted. As others have mentioned composite panels are the way to go.
iana said
11:37 AM Dec 26, 2021
Just read the sales info on Bush Tracker caravans, there is a little bit of shall we say "Romancing with the Truth" on their page, but probably the same pitch as another producer trying to sell their product. The load sharing suspension, they say is used by 90% of the transport industry, but my reckoning is, they use it so the full loading of the vehicle can be achieved by having the weight evenly distributed to the wheels, i.e. licensing details.
I wonder how they come up with aircraft grade steel for the suspension beams. Aircraft grade aluminum for the SHS and RHS welded frame. I'm an aircraft engineer by trade and have never seen SHS and RHS used in the construction of aircraft, maybe they do, I haven't seen it. They may use the SHS and RHS to make the cargo pods, and catering equipment.
As far as composite and glued structure, I suggest none of the designers at Bush tracker go flying.
Brodie Allen said
07:48 PM Dec 27, 2021
When you see "Fully Insulated" vans pulled down, you will quickly
appreciate the composite panel method of construction.
Undersized wads of material just shoved into the voids and after
a bit of time having shrunk and settled down into the lower
half of the void.
Eskys are a lesson in insulation.
And noise insulation.
Access to wiring is much better since it is all inside where
it can be seen and traced. Take a look at a van with it's
sides off and marvel at the spider's web of wires and joins
and wonder how there's not more failures and fires.
Use your nut and don't accept the salesman's mantra without
plenty of thought.
travelyounger said
05:15 AM Dec 28, 2021
Branchie wrote:
Hi all, we are looking at selling our van (timber frame) and want to go for an Aluminium Frame with composite panels Has anyone done any research on wether welded or riveted is better.Now keeping in mind, we will not be doing any extreme off-road, but certainly roads like the Gibb, the Cape etc
-- Edited by Branchie on Sunday 19th of December 2021 11:37:51 AM
Hi we looked at a couple of brands when in Melbourne one was sunseeker and the model is the titanium hardcore off road riveted aluminium frame and external dibond aluminium panels you Can arrange your that was two years ago .Masterpeice Ex JB caravans new models have engineered fibreglass framing fibreglass exterior walls and one piece roof with composite flooring which reduces approx 200 to 300 kg on a 20 foot 6 full off road van with all the goods.Naturally these quality vans come with price tags from 100 to 200 k and at least a one year wait for a new build .Other makes are sunland patriot built in caboulture qld which has no timber not sure on other vans like spinefex or zone which are in the 150 k price tag but sure their are many more changing from timber framing.
Cheers
montie said
08:07 AM Dec 28, 2021
travelyounger wrote:
Branchie wrote:
Hi all, we are looking at selling our van (timber frame) and want to go for an Aluminium Frame with composite panels Has anyone done any research on wether welded or riveted is better.Now keeping in mind, we will not be doing any extreme off-road, but certainly roads like the Gibb, the Cape etc
-- Edited by Branchie on Sunday 19th of December 2021 11:37:51 AM
Hi we looked at a couple of brands when in Melbourne one was sunseeker and the model is the titanium hardcore off road riveted aluminium frame and external dibond aluminium panels you Can arrange your that was two years ago .Masterpeice Ex JB caravans new models have engineered fibreglass framing fibreglass exterior walls and one piece roof with composite flooring which reduces approx 200 to 300 kg on a 20 foot 6 full off road van with all the goods.Naturally these quality vans come with price tags from 100 to 200 k and at least a one year wait for a new build .Other makes are sunland patriot built in caboulture qld which has no timber not sure on other vans like spinefex or zone which are in the 150 k price tag but sure their are many more changing from timber framing.
Cheers
Millard has no timber.
Gary and Barb said
02:03 PM Dec 30, 2021
I can only assume you are looking at a caravan, rather than trailer or slide-on.
A problem with any van type is the need to flex. This need increases with size. Timber does this quite well, but aluminium also handles flex if it is NOT welded. Welding reduces the tensile strength and the which is flex needed to maintain the integrity of the structure. I deliberately steered away from steel after seeing so many with dangerous rust - particularly at crucial joins! I have a Trayon slide-on which is glued and riveted (as per aircraft construction) and has composite panels. Light, strong and flexes well. Not all aluminium construction is equal. Check each brand carefully.
Good hunting!
oldbloke said
07:58 PM Dec 30, 2021
Gary and Barb wrote:
I can only assume you are looking at a caravan, rather than trailer or slide-on.
A problem with any van type is the need to flex. This need increases with size. Timber does this quite well, but aluminium also handles flex if it is NOT welded. Welding reduces the tensile strength and the which is flex needed to maintain the integrity of the structure. I deliberately steered away from steel after seeing so many with dangerous rust - particularly at crucial joins! I have a Trayon slide-on which is glued and riveted (as per aircraft construction) and has composite panels. Light, strong and flexes well. Not all aluminium construction is equal. Check each brand carefully.
Good hunting!
Agree. For a van, timber or riveted aluminium is the go. IMO
Aus-Kiwi said
09:41 AM Dec 31, 2021
Salt does terrible things to alloy . We tend to follow the coast line . Wash with kero. I guess it comes down to design and maintenance ? Then theres fibreglass, resin type .
KJB said
10:01 AM Dec 31, 2021
Branchie wrote:
Hi all, we are looking at selling our van (timber frame) and want to go for an Aluminium Frame with composite panels Has anyone done any research on wether welded or riveted is better.Now keeping in mind, we will not be doing any extreme off-road, but certainly roads like the Gibb, the Cape etc
-- Edited by Branchie on Sunday 19th of December 2021 11:37:51 AM
If you have a good chassis and nice soft, compliant suspension (air bags and twin shock absorbers - as an example ) the rest of the van does not have to be built like a tank because it gets a super easy life without continual vibration/pounding damage. Our Fifth Wheeler is 16 years old , wood framed and has seen more than its "fair share" of gravel roads and tracks and is still in excellent condition. The van rides like a "Tourist Coach" with shock absorbed , gentle, rolling and rocking motions. KB
oldbloke said
09:14 PM Dec 31, 2021
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Salt does terrible things to alloy . We tend to follow the coast line . Wash with kero. I guess it comes down to design and maintenance ? Then theres fibreglass, resin type .
Good point
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:59 PM Dec 31, 2021
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Salt does terrible things to alloy . We tend to follow the coast line . Wash with kero. I guess it comes down to design and maintenance ? Then theres fibreglass, resin type .
Hello.
I have owned this tinny for 23 years. It was probably over 20 years old when I bought it.
It shows no deterioration from salt or the weather.
I owned this high performance glider for 12 years and flew it competitively for many hours. It is fibreglass/balsa wood sandwich panel and solid fibreglass. It has a 20m wingspan and can fly at 250kph.
It was built inGermany in 1973. It is still flying today, almost 50 years later.
Most materials can give stirling service if used in the right way and to the right design. Get it wrong and they can all fail.
My choice for RVs is definitely fibreglass/closed cell polyurethane foam/fibreglass sandwich panel for superior durability and performance.
Hey Branchie. With regards to your question re, wall framing material. Jayco caravans have been using a bonded composite + welded aluminium frame for years. The frame is encased within the wall panel. Outside is fiberglass, inside panel is ply with a painted veneer applied. Some people knock Jayco caravans, BUT, many top end caravan builders are copying their wall construction methods. Here's a clip of Jayco's wall construction method. (this is a few years old, they have recently improved their method's.
Pete your right with tinnies . Leave a copper coin etc in the bottom and see what happens? Yes its good maintenance!! Much the same with alloy engines etc . Just be aware !!! You wouldnt leave fibreglass insulation in boat like some vans are built ? If salt air gets in there ? Bad news !!
Hi all, we are looking at selling our van (timber frame) and want to go for an Aluminium Frame with composite panels Has anyone done any research on wether welded or riveted is better.Now keeping in mind, we will not be doing any extreme off-road, but certainly roads like the Gibb, the Cape etc
-- Edited by Branchie on Sunday 19th of December 2021 11:37:51 AM
Stronger, lighter, better insulation.
Aluminium is wonderful material, BUT if the engineering is not superb, fatigue failures can be a major issue, particularly where it is joined. It also conducts heat extermely well.
Cheers,
Peter
I wonder how they come up with aircraft grade steel for the suspension beams. Aircraft grade aluminum for the SHS and RHS welded frame. I'm an aircraft engineer by trade and have never seen SHS and RHS used in the construction of aircraft, maybe they do, I haven't seen it. They may use the SHS and RHS to make the cargo pods, and catering equipment.
As far as composite and glued structure, I suggest none of the designers at Bush tracker go flying.
appreciate the composite panel method of construction.
Undersized wads of material just shoved into the voids and after
a bit of time having shrunk and settled down into the lower
half of the void.
Eskys are a lesson in insulation.
And noise insulation.
Access to wiring is much better since it is all inside where
it can be seen and traced. Take a look at a van with it's
sides off and marvel at the spider's web of wires and joins
and wonder how there's not more failures and fires.
Use your nut and don't accept the salesman's mantra without
plenty of thought.
Hi we looked at a couple of brands when in Melbourne one was sunseeker and the model is the titanium hardcore off road riveted aluminium frame and external dibond aluminium panels you Can arrange your that was two years ago .Masterpeice Ex JB caravans new models have engineered fibreglass framing fibreglass exterior walls and one piece roof with composite flooring which reduces approx 200 to 300 kg on a 20 foot 6 full off road van with all the goods.Naturally these quality vans come with price tags from 100 to 200 k and at least a one year wait for a new build .Other makes are sunland patriot built in caboulture qld which has no timber not sure on other vans like spinefex or zone which are in the 150 k price tag but sure their are many more changing from timber framing.
Cheers
Millard has no timber.
I can only assume you are looking at a caravan, rather than trailer or slide-on.
A problem with any van type is the need to flex. This need increases with size. Timber does this quite well, but aluminium also handles flex if it is NOT welded. Welding reduces the tensile strength and the which is flex needed to maintain the integrity of the structure. I deliberately steered away from steel after seeing so many with dangerous rust - particularly at crucial joins! I have a Trayon slide-on which is glued and riveted (as per aircraft construction) and has composite panels. Light, strong and flexes well. Not all aluminium construction is equal. Check each brand carefully.
Good hunting!
Agree. For a van, timber or riveted aluminium is the go. IMO
If you have a good chassis and nice soft, compliant suspension (air bags and twin shock absorbers - as an example ) the rest of the van does not have to be built like a tank because it gets a super easy life without continual vibration/pounding damage. Our Fifth Wheeler is 16 years old , wood framed and has seen more than its "fair share" of gravel roads and tracks and is still in excellent condition. The van rides like a "Tourist Coach" with shock absorbed , gentle, rolling and rocking motions. KB
Good point
I have owned this tinny for 23 years. It was probably over 20 years old when I bought it.
It shows no deterioration from salt or the weather.
I owned this high performance glider for 12 years and flew it competitively for many hours. It is fibreglass/balsa wood sandwich panel and solid fibreglass. It has a 20m wingspan and can fly at 250kph.
It was built inGermany in 1973. It is still flying today, almost 50 years later.
Most materials can give stirling service if used in the right way and to the right design. Get it wrong and they can all fail.
My choice for RVs is definitely fibreglass/closed cell polyurethane foam/fibreglass sandwich panel for superior durability and performance.
Cheers,
Peter
Hey Branchie. With regards to your question re, wall framing material. Jayco caravans have been using a bonded composite + welded aluminium frame for years. The frame is encased within the wall panel. Outside is fiberglass, inside panel is ply with a painted veneer applied. Some people knock Jayco caravans, BUT, many top end caravan builders are copying their wall construction methods. Here's a clip of Jayco's wall construction method. (this is a few years old, they have recently improved their method's.
Behind-the-Scenes: Jayco Tough Frame - YouTube