It's very simple; put the petrol can (or approved plastic container) on the ground next to the petrol pump and fill it.
Today I passed through Ararat in Victoria and dropped into the Safeway fuel station; as I walked back to my vehicle I noticed a lady of about 70 years filling a 25L petrol container which was located on the back of her ute. I don't usually interfere with others but I did stop and advise her this was not a wise thing to do; she replied, reasonably enough, that if she fills it on the ground she cannot lift it back onto the ute. I didn't say because I didn't want to labour the point but I'm sure had she asked any man who happened to be in the vicinity he would have done it for her. Ho hum....
This is not a trivial matter of obeying the rules; regular readers will know I am not a "rules" person but I believe it is a requirement under law to put the container on the ground before filling it. There is a *very* good reason for this: static electricity.
The intent behind putting the container on the ground is to ensure all components of the petrol filling system are at the same (earth) electrical potential and this is important because, if they are not, then when a human (or pump nozzle) touches one of them it is more than likely a spark will occur and petrol vapour and sparks do not go well together - a number of people have died an unpleasant death in this situation over the years.
I'm sure we have all experienced a static "zap" one time or another and there is enough energy there to make it most unpleasant - that level of energy is also more than enough to ignite the vapour from a 25L can of petrol and turn it into a flame thrower right into your face!
elliemike said
04:34 PM Feb 18, 2022
An example of Static causing a fire.
-- Edited by elliemike on Friday 18th of February 2022 04:35:46 PM
-- Edited by elliemike on Friday 18th of February 2022 10:58:47 PM
Bobdown said
05:34 PM Feb 18, 2022
Used to work with a woman who was a walking spark........every time she bumped into someone, she zapped them, bloody hurt too.
Walking thru those plastic fly strips at the deli, pushing a shopping trolley or whatever, she just constantly zapped everyone.
We said she needed one of those old car, anti-static straps hanging out of her bum.
You are right Mike, on the ground and holding the handle at the top so no new spark can occur.
Cheers Bob
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:00 PM Feb 18, 2022
Fuel station operarors will usually shut the pump off if they notice anyone filling a container not on the ground.
Cheers,
Peter
86GTS said
06:11 PM Feb 18, 2022
I recently sold my 17ft fibreglass half cabin boat.
For 20 years I pulled up to the fuel pumps, jumped into the boat while on its trailer & filled both 25 litre fuel tanks that fed my 70hp Yamaha outboard motor.
Was I breaking the law?
deverall11 said
06:22 PM Feb 18, 2022
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Fuel station operarors will usually shut the pump off if they notice anyone filling a container not on the ground. Cheers, Peter
Nothing against Indians but maybe this operator was and was more concerned about the income.
deverall11 said
06:23 PM Feb 18, 2022
86GTS wrote:
I recently sold my 17ft fibreglass half cabin boat. For 20 years I pulled up to the fuel pumps, jumped into the boat while on its trailer & filled both 25 litre fuel tanks that fed my 70hp Yamaha outboard motor. Was I breaking the law?
Good point. Not intimate enough with the wording of the law to make an educated comment.
Mike Harding said
06:43 PM Feb 18, 2022
86GTS wrote:
I recently sold my 17ft fibreglass half cabin boat. For 20 years I pulled up to the fuel pumps, jumped into the boat while on its trailer & filled both 25 litre fuel tanks that fed my 70hp Yamaha outboard motor. Was I breaking the law?
Don't know, don't care and am not interested in debating it.
I understand this stuff: and what I will tell you is that if you have different electrical potentials around a gaseous installation you run a significant risk of ignition and it won't be nice - it happens, around the world, much more often than is appreciated.
The variables in this are area manifold and unable to be assessed with confidence in such environments hence the regulations err on the side of caution. Perhaps your boat found an earth through its trailer mountings... maybe it didn't and you got lucky... the trouble is when you play the numbers on this kind of gamble you only get to lose once.
thomas01 said
07:49 PM Feb 18, 2022
Does the same apply with diesel?
Are We Lost said
08:20 PM Feb 18, 2022
Remember when most vehicles had earthing straps hanging down to touch the road when stopped? What has changed that we don't need them now?
As for the dangers of spark while filling a boat ... I don't believe it. Many thousands would be refuelled that way every day. A boat attached to the car is insulated from the road by the tyres. I don't see why that's any different from filling a drum on the tailgate.
Neverthelss, it's a good rule to stop overflow into the vehicle.
oldbloke said
08:30 PM Feb 18, 2022
No, risk is negligible.
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:59 PM Feb 18, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
A boat attached to the car is insulated from the road by the tyres.
If you believe that, you don't know much about tyres or static.
Tyres are full of carbon black, it is what makes them black and it conducts electricity.
Static is vey low amps at very high voltage. It can travel through high resistances.
Cheers,
Peter
Are We Lost said
10:22 PM Feb 18, 2022
So are you saying that there would be no static buildup because it would have dissipated through the tyres to ground? But the point remains that I don't see how there would be a difference in static buildup between inbuilt boat tanks, and a drum on the tailgate. Or even a difference in static buildup between those and refuelling the vehicle tank.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 18th of February 2022 10:34:52 PM
landy said
10:23 PM Feb 18, 2022
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
A boat attached to the car is insulated from the road by the tyres.
If you believe that, you don't know much about tyres or static.
Tyres are full of carbon black, it is what makes them black and it conducts electricity.
Static is vey low amps at very high voltage. It can travel through high resistances.
Cheers,
Peter
I'm sure many people would have experienced a decent static shock off their car doors at some stage.
Rusty W said
10:41 PM Feb 18, 2022
Hi, willing to learn, what is the difference between a car fuel tank and a boat fuel tank ? Car fuel tank is usually plastic bolted to the metal frame in side the car somewhere.
Boat fuel tank alloy or plastic set in fibreglass in the boat somewhere. Both contact the ground by the tyres. Why is one more dangerous than the other?
iana said
11:33 PM Feb 18, 2022
Touché
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:39 PM Feb 18, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
So are you saying that there would be no static buildup because it would have dissipated through the tyres to ground?
No I am not saying that.
Cheers,
Peter
86GTS said
04:31 AM Feb 19, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
86GTS wrote:
I recently sold my 17ft fibreglass half cabin boat. For 20 years I pulled up to the fuel pumps, jumped into the boat while on its trailer & filled both 25 litre fuel tanks that fed my 70hp Yamaha outboard motor. Was I breaking the law?
Don't know, don't care and am not interested in debating it.
I understand this stuff: and what I will tell you is that if you have different electrical potentials around a gaseous installation you run a significant risk of ignition and it won't be nice - it happens, around the world, much more often than is appreciated.
The variables in this are area manifold and unable to be assessed with confidence in such environments hence the regulations err on the side of caution. Perhaps your boat found an earth through its trailer mountings... maybe it didn't and you got lucky... the trouble is when you play the numbers on this kind of gamble you only get to lose once.
I'm not interested in debating it either.
I was asking a question.
Ivan 01 said
08:00 AM Feb 19, 2022
I know a lot of you blokes want to say it but it is against your good nature.
Well I will say it then.
All Metal Gerry Cans should be Banned.
While I am on the subject, why are the majority of them still painted camouflage green when many travellers still put a flammable liquid into them?
I lay in bed of a night pondering this very topic.
Mike Harding said
08:44 AM Feb 19, 2022
I have no idea whether boats on trailers are covered in the regulations or not... nor do I know if petrol driven concrete mixers are mentioned... or trailer mounted generators or....
What I do know is that this is an area where common sense should apply, you know... like don't point an unloaded firearm at someone... it's basic safety. So unless I was satisfied the boat fuel tank was at earth potential I would not fill it with petrol from a pump.
It is important to understand that there is no such thing as an electrical insulator there are only poor conductors and static electricity may have a potential of hundreds of thousands (millions?) of volts and thus may find pathways across/through materials we would generally consider to be insulators eg. plastic; so don't think this is only an issue for metal containers.
Someone asked about diesel: I don't believe there is a significant issue with static and diesel in domestic situations although I have it in mind that pumping it at high flow rates (not sure how high) can be a cause for concern.
Rather than bicker on this thread I suggest you Google this area, you'll find plenty of real world examples which have left a lot of dead people behind.
watsea said
10:45 PM Feb 19, 2022
"she replied, reasonably enough, that if she fills it on the ground she cannot lift it back onto the ute. I didn't say because I didn't want to labour the point but I'm sure had she asked any man who happened to be in the vicinity he would have done it for her. Ho hum...."
I am thinking that it would have been a nice and safe gesture to offer to lift the container down for her and lift it back up when she had done her filling.
Mike Harding said
07:24 AM Feb 20, 2022
watsea wrote:
I am thinking that it would have been a nice and safe gesture to offer to lift the container down for her and lift it back up when she had done her filling.
If you'll give me your phone number I'll be able to ask your advice regarding etiquette and manners in future?
Rob Driver said
08:19 AM Feb 20, 2022
The curry muncher attendant at the service station console cares less about the safety of filling a metal can, after all on todays values that tin full of fuel is a $40 sale to him.
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:18 AM Feb 20, 2022
Does racial discrimination come naturally to you?
Cheers,
Peter
Rob Driver said
09:35 AM Feb 20, 2022
deverall11 wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Fuel station operarors will usually shut the pump off if they notice anyone filling a container not on the ground. Cheers, Peter
Nothing against Indians but maybe this operator was and was more concerned about the income.
Peter said
Does racial discrimination come naturally to you?
Cheers, Peter
-
*Nothing against curry munchers or Indians but maybe this operator was more concerned about the income*
So we no longer have Poms Yanks etc the list could go on.
Then we have Nick names for even the Aussies that come from different states. Sandgropers, Croweaters etc.
It must be great to be absolutely perfect in this new world some have created.
TheHeaths said
09:39 AM Feb 20, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
watsea wrote:
I am thinking that it would have been a nice and safe gesture to offer to lift the container down for her and lift it back up when she had done her filling.
If you'll give me your phone number I'll be able to ask your advice regarding etiquette and manners in future?
Mike, it had nothing to do with manners or etiquette, it was a legitimate safety issue you raised. Now unless you offered to help, and she declined, you become part of the issue by simply leaving.
The standard you walk away from is the standard you accept! In this case you could have removed the risk for a minute or two of your time, instead of leaving it to the woman, and other men in the area.
You may gather I agree with Watsea on this occasion.
PS to others here, how do we know the attendant was Indian? I didnt see any reference from Mike about that. I know a lot of Caucasian operators on service station consoles. By the way Rob, some nicknames are terms of endearment. I dont think I have ever seen the name you chose used in that way.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 20th of February 2022 09:44:57 AM
Wanda said
09:50 AM Feb 20, 2022
Rob Driver wrote:
The curry muncher attendant at the service station console cares less about the safety of filling a metal can, after all on todays values that tin full of fuel is a $40 sale to him.
What a disgusting comment, you are nothing but a RACIST
Mike Harding said
09:54 AM Feb 20, 2022
TheHeaths wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
watsea wrote:
I am thinking that it would have been a nice and safe gesture to offer to lift the container down for her and lift it back up when she had done her filling.
If you'll give me your phone number I'll be able to ask your advice regarding etiquette and manners in future?
Mike, it had nothing to do with manners or etiquette, it was a legitimate safety issue you raised. Now unless you offered to help, and she declined, you become part of the issue by simply leaving.
The standard you walk away from is the standard you accept! In this case you could have removed the risk for a minute or two of your time, instead of leaving it to the woman, and other men in the area.
Well... well... well....
What assumed conclusions you gleefully leap to... how do you know that I did not suggest doing that?
Whenarewethere said
10:04 AM Feb 20, 2022
I would have used steel fuel tanks as the mining industry does for the lowest static risk. It is documented ad nauseam.
Regulations do not allowed to carry petrol on the rear of the car, no room for long range tank in our vehicle, so we put fuel on the roof & we can't get a bigger car in our 3 water front properties.
We use 5 & 10L containers as they are easy to lift, mostly so we can get the fuel off the roof & into the tank at the earliest opportunity, simple, easy & quick rotation of fuel. 180 seconds to empty 10L, & hold up the container easily. On our yacht tender we use the Australian approved 20L steel tank.
Warning. Previously posted image, some people here say I repeat myself & contribute 'rubbish'. To date yet to see anything constructive from said people.
I am capable of learning unlike others. All I could get in Halls Creek, 3.5 tyres better than 3 tyres. We had another spare, but we like multiple redundancy. I did once lose 2 tyres in one situation, so have put backup in place to minimise risk. I spoke to a Road Train Driver who destroyed 18 tyres in one incident. We got off lightly losing only 2 tyres in one incident.
A lesson learnt unlike others, 'A tyre pressure monitor wont give you any indication as to wether there actually is a positive connection between your brain and your mouth or even your typing fingers'
We have TPMS & it have saved us 4 tyres to date, Net saving $1150.00. So a brain connection, unlike said others.
We also have 2 fire extinguishers In the car & 2 fire extinguishers in the garage. Multiple extinguishers in our adjoining properties, more than NSW registrations, which we have at the ready when filling tank. Also give them a bash every few weeks as the powder settles to a solid block.
P.S. leave your mobile phone in the car while filling with fuel.
The curry muncher attendant at the service station console cares less about the safety of filling a metal can, after all on todays values that tin full of fuel is a $40 sale to him.
What a disgusting comment, you are nothing but a RACIST
I would much rather be called a name than be blown to kingdom come as a direct result of the inactions of a console operator to shut down the pump.
This topic is truly amazing.
The ones with their Pope uniforms on are all sitting in their armchairs and offering advice to others when no one knows the true situation.
Many people dont want help.
The fault is with the console operator or the manager of the outlet. It doesnt matter what country they come from they are still at fault.
Wether that console operator is from another country has nothing to do with it apart from if he did see the misuse of the bowser nozzle and didnt act then it was because he considered the $40 more important than the safety of all others.
I said this above,
Nothing against curry munchers or Indians but maybe this operator was more concerned about the income*
So we no longer have Poms Yanks etc the list could go on.
Then we have Nick names for even the Aussies that come from different states. Sandgropers, Croweaters etc.
It must be great to be absolutely perfect in this new world some have created.
It's very simple; put the petrol can (or approved plastic container) on the ground next to the petrol pump and fill it.
Today I passed through Ararat in Victoria and dropped into the Safeway fuel station; as I walked back to my vehicle I noticed a lady of about 70 years filling a 25L petrol container which was located on the back of her ute. I don't usually interfere with others but I did stop and advise her this was not a wise thing to do; she replied, reasonably enough, that if she fills it on the ground she cannot lift it back onto the ute. I didn't say because I didn't want to labour the point but I'm sure had she asked any man who happened to be in the vicinity he would have done it for her. Ho hum....
This is not a trivial matter of obeying the rules; regular readers will know I am not a "rules" person but I believe it is a requirement under law to put the container on the ground before filling it. There is a *very* good reason for this: static electricity.
The intent behind putting the container on the ground is to ensure all components of the petrol filling system are at the same (earth) electrical potential and this is important because, if they are not, then when a human (or pump nozzle) touches one of them it is more than likely a spark will occur and petrol vapour and sparks do not go well together - a number of people have died an unpleasant death in this situation over the years.
I'm sure we have all experienced a static "zap" one time or another and there is enough energy there to make it most unpleasant - that level of energy is also more than enough to ignite the vapour from a 25L can of petrol and turn it into a flame thrower right into your face!
An example of Static causing a fire.
-- Edited by elliemike on Friday 18th of February 2022 04:35:46 PM
-- Edited by elliemike on Friday 18th of February 2022 10:58:47 PM
Used to work with a woman who was a walking spark........every time she bumped into someone, she zapped them, bloody hurt too.
Walking thru those plastic fly strips at the deli, pushing a shopping trolley or whatever, she just constantly zapped everyone.
We said she needed one of those old car, anti-static straps hanging out of her bum.
You are right Mike, on the ground and holding the handle at the top so no new spark can occur.
Cheers Bob
Cheers,
Peter
For 20 years I pulled up to the fuel pumps, jumped into the boat while on its trailer & filled both 25 litre fuel tanks that fed my 70hp Yamaha outboard motor.
Was I breaking the law?
Nothing against Indians but maybe this operator was and was more concerned about the income.
Good point. Not intimate enough with the wording of the law to make an educated comment.
Don't know, don't care and am not interested in debating it.
I understand this stuff: and what I will tell you is that if you have different electrical potentials around a gaseous installation you run a significant risk of ignition and it won't be nice - it happens, around the world, much more often than is appreciated.
The variables in this are area manifold and unable to be assessed with confidence in such environments hence the regulations err on the side of caution. Perhaps your boat found an earth through its trailer mountings... maybe it didn't and you got lucky... the trouble is when you play the numbers on this kind of gamble you only get to lose once.
As for the dangers of spark while filling a boat ... I don't believe it. Many thousands would be refuelled that way every day. A boat attached to the car is insulated from the road by the tyres. I don't see why that's any different from filling a drum on the tailgate.
Neverthelss, it's a good rule to stop overflow into the vehicle.
No, risk is negligible.
If you believe that, you don't know much about tyres or static.
Tyres are full of carbon black, it is what makes them black and it conducts electricity.
Static is vey low amps at very high voltage. It can travel through high resistances.
Cheers,
Peter
So are you saying that there would be no static buildup because it would have dissipated through the tyres to ground? But the point remains that I don't see how there would be a difference in static buildup between inbuilt boat tanks, and a drum on the tailgate. Or even a difference in static buildup between those and refuelling the vehicle tank.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 18th of February 2022 10:34:52 PM
I'm sure many people would have experienced a decent static shock off their car doors at some stage.
Boat fuel tank alloy or plastic set in fibreglass in the boat somewhere. Both contact the ground by the tyres. Why is one more dangerous than the other?
No I am not saying that.
Cheers,
Peter
I'm not interested in debating it either.
I was asking a question.
I know a lot of you blokes want to say it but it is against your good nature.
Well I will say it then.
All Metal Gerry Cans should be Banned.
While I am on the subject, why are the majority of them still painted camouflage green when many travellers still put a flammable liquid into them?
I lay in bed of a night pondering this very topic.
I have no idea whether boats on trailers are covered in the regulations or not... nor do I know if petrol driven concrete mixers are mentioned... or trailer mounted generators or....
What I do know is that this is an area where common sense should apply, you know... like don't point an unloaded firearm at someone... it's basic safety. So unless I was satisfied the boat fuel tank was at earth potential I would not fill it with petrol from a pump.
Worksafe Victoria do mention trailers
It is important to understand that there is no such thing as an electrical insulator there are only poor conductors and static electricity may have a potential of hundreds of thousands (millions?) of volts and thus may find pathways across/through materials we would generally consider to be insulators eg. plastic; so don't think this is only an issue for metal containers.
Someone asked about diesel: I don't believe there is a significant issue with static and diesel in domestic situations although I have it in mind that pumping it at high flow rates (not sure how high) can be a cause for concern.
Rather than bicker on this thread I suggest you Google this area, you'll find plenty of real world examples which have left a lot of dead people behind.
I am thinking that it would have been a nice and safe gesture to offer to lift the container down for her and lift it back up when she had done her filling.
If you'll give me your phone number I'll be able to ask your advice regarding etiquette and manners in future?
Cheers,
Peter
Peter said
Does racial discrimination come naturally to you?
Cheers,
Peter
-
*Nothing against curry munchers or Indians but maybe this operator was more concerned about the income*
So we no longer have Poms Yanks etc the list could go on.
Then we have Nick names for even the Aussies that come from different states. Sandgropers, Croweaters etc.
It must be great to be absolutely perfect in this new world some have created.
Mike, it had nothing to do with manners or etiquette, it was a legitimate safety issue you raised. Now unless you offered to help, and she declined, you become part of the issue by simply leaving.
The standard you walk away from is the standard you accept! In this case you could have removed the risk for a minute or two of your time, instead of leaving it to the woman, and other men in the area.
You may gather I agree with Watsea on this occasion.
PS to others here, how do we know the attendant was Indian? I didnt see any reference from Mike about that. I know a lot of Caucasian operators on service station consoles. By the way Rob, some nicknames are terms of endearment. I dont think I have ever seen the name you chose used in that way.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 20th of February 2022 09:44:57 AM
What a disgusting comment, you are nothing but a RACIST
Well... well... well....
What assumed conclusions you gleefully leap to... how do you know that I did not suggest doing that?
I would have used steel fuel tanks as the mining industry does for the lowest static risk. It is documented ad nauseam.
Regulations do not allowed to carry petrol on the rear of the car, no room for long range tank in our vehicle, so we put fuel on the roof & we can't get a bigger car in our 3 water front properties.
We use 5 & 10L containers as they are easy to lift, mostly so we can get the fuel off the roof & into the tank at the earliest opportunity, simple, easy & quick rotation of fuel. 180 seconds to empty 10L, & hold up the container easily. On our yacht tender we use the Australian approved 20L steel tank.
Warning. Previously posted image, some people here say I repeat myself & contribute 'rubbish'. To date yet to see anything constructive from said people.
A lesson learnt unlike others, 'A tyre pressure monitor wont give you any indication as to wether there actually is a positive connection between your brain and your mouth or even your typing fingers'
We have TPMS & it have saved us 4 tyres to date, Net saving $1150.00. So a brain connection, unlike said others.
We also have 2 fire extinguishers In the car & 2 fire extinguishers in the garage. Multiple extinguishers in our adjoining properties, more than NSW registrations, which we have at the ready when filling tank. Also give them a bash every few weeks as the powder settles to a solid block.
P.S. leave your mobile phone in the car while filling with fuel.
I would much rather be called a name than be blown to kingdom come as a direct result of the inactions of a console operator to shut down the pump.
This topic is truly amazing.
The ones with their Pope uniforms on are all sitting in their armchairs and offering advice to others when no one knows the true situation.
Many people dont want help.
The fault is with the console operator or the manager of the outlet. It doesnt matter what country they come from they are still at fault.
Wether that console operator is from another country has nothing to do with it apart from if he did see the misuse of the bowser nozzle and didnt act then it was because he considered the $40 more important than the safety of all others.
I said this above,
Nothing against curry munchers or Indians but maybe this operator was more concerned about the income*
So we no longer have Poms Yanks etc the list could go on.
Then we have Nick names for even the Aussies that come from different states. Sandgropers, Croweaters etc.
It must be great to be absolutely perfect in this new world some have created.