This may be interesting, initially doomed to failure simply because vehicle manufacturers wont standardise battery designs/sizes. How good would it be if an EV could just spend 2 minutes swapping batteries rather than lengthy recharging on the go.
-- Edited by Phlipper on Friday 1st of April 2022 10:19:06 AM
Whenarewethere said
10:33 AM Apr 1, 2022
The issue is that batteries are so heavy it would be difficult to design a car without adding considerably more weight for the battery to be removable. Plus a heavy removable structurally around the battery pack.
If you have pulled a professional power tool battery pack apart, the amount of material holding the batteries together is quite a heavy percentage of the pack.
Are We Lost said
01:45 PM Apr 1, 2022
Would it really add so much more weight to make it removable?
I think the remove/replace part would be solvable at a service centre designed for the purpose. Vehicle design would have to change, but I could imagine driving over a pit. A special jack would support the battery from underneath to facilitate easy removal and replacement. It could be done in a similar time as recharging would take. The cost of someone's time to do the swap would need to be factored in, so it would be dearer than recharging.
Of course, standardisation down to a few different models would be needed, but the bigger problem is what to do about differing battery ages. If I have a one year old car, do I want a 5 year old battery that may have been recharged hundreds of times? Do I get paid to do such a s swap? Vice versa, would I have to pay big $$ for a newer battery? Hardly a viable solution.
I can see a way around that, but requiring a fundamental change in our thinking. Buy the car, but never actually own the battery. It's always on rental, like leasing a car. We pay to top it up but the leasing/rental company must replace it if needed at their cost. Maybe lease costs will reduce as it ages.
Whenarewethere said
02:10 PM Apr 1, 2022
Battery age is not an issue. The battery has a complete history of how it was used & abused. Every cycle & it's percentage, rate of discharge charge. Environmental effects of heat & cold. Even my 2008 DSLR camera has basic information in the camera for up to 6 batteries on battery performance.
So the battery you take out of the car will have a whole life value of X & the replacement of Y. Then you get charged a battery life value factor.
Not to forget that a new car battery starts its life at a percentage of its capacity & is gradually ramped up as the battery ages. Your new car is probably using about 80% of the actual capacity, but you as the driver will see it as 100% when you have fully charged the car. So in 10 years the battery is now being charged to 100%.
dabbler said
02:24 PM Apr 1, 2022
EV battery exchange is already happening in Norway, India and China. The most recent battery exchange stations are automated and take just minutes. There is a degree of standardization and the first stations were built by the vehicle manufacturers. Later ones are being built by third party interests. They're apparently quite successful and popular so the cost must be reasonable.
Jaahn said
05:33 PM Apr 1, 2022
dabbler wrote:
EV battery exchange is already happening in Norway, India and China. The most recent battery exchange stations are automated and take just minutes. There is a degree of standardization and the first stations were built by the vehicle manufacturers. Later ones are being built by third party interests. They're apparently quite successful and popular so the cost must be reasonable.
Well you can be certain that our backward looking federal gov will do nothing as sensible as encouraging this like these countries above. But private centers might do it. However there is no standard so far between manufacturers of size or type of batteries or even working voltage.
I think we are in the early days of modern battery power so various ideas will be tried. Whether battery swapping is one of the accepted ones will be known in a few years. Certainly it might suit some but I think most people will like to baby their own battery and normally charge it at their usual station. But your crystal ball is as opaque as mine so far !!
I think the technology and availability of stations for quick charging has moved forward in some big steps in the last couple of years so the time to recharge on a trip is almost not a issue now.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 1st of April 2022 05:39:24 PM
Phlipper said
09:09 PM Apr 1, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
Would it really add so much more weight to make it removable?
I think the remove/replace part would be solvable at a service centre designed for the purpose. Vehicle design would have to change, but I could imagine driving over a pit. A special jack would support the battery from underneath to facilitate easy removal and replacement. It could be done in a similar time as recharging would take. The cost of someone's time to do the swap would need to be factored in, so it would be dearer than recharging.
Of course, standardisation down to a few different models would be needed, but the bigger problem is what to do about differing battery ages. If I have a one year old car, do I want a 5 year old battery that may have been recharged hundreds of times? Do I get paid to do such a s swap? Vice versa, would I have to pay big $$ for a newer battery? Hardly a viable solution.
I can see a way around that, but requiring a fundamental change in our thinking. Buy the car, but never actually own the battery. It's always on rental, like leasing a car. We pay to top it up but the leasing/rental company must replace it if needed at their cost. Maybe lease costs will reduce as it ages.
Yes, batteries would not be owned outright, and should have a life span of at least 10 yrs before noticeable degradation. Every service station could have racks full of exchange batteries being charged ready for the next customer, possibly all being recharged via Solar installations.
Phlipper said
09:12 PM Apr 1, 2022
dabbler wrote:
EV battery exchange is already happening in Norway, India and China. The most recent battery exchange stations are automated and take just minutes. There is a degree of standardization and the first stations were built by the vehicle manufacturers. Later ones are being built by third party interests. They're apparently quite successful and popular so the cost must be reasonable.
In a place like Australia, exchange batteries like in the video seem to make a lot of sense. Just needs all batteries shape and sizes standardised to fit all vehicle models
Buzz Lightbulb said
12:00 PM Apr 2, 2022
A long time ago there used to be such a system for electric buses (Might have been England). They drove into a garage, the batteries (acid in a frame in those days) were lowered down then new ones raised up into the bus.
There are battery swapping on small vehicles in Korea somewhere. Little EVs, like the Toyota iRoad, would be quite serviceable for the majority of city driving, most of which is with one occupant going to our from work or going shopping. If those smaller vehicles were the majority of road users then it would help with congestion and parking.
I could see battery swapping would probably work like gas bottle swapping. You just swap them and the managers of the 'service stations' would replace the old ones when needed.
I believe that it's sometimes only one or so cells that need replacing so an EV qualified, service station mechanic could easily replace those and a serviceable battery pack would be available.
Of course one wouldn't need to swap batteries that often if one could charge their EV at home, work, shopping centre, roadhouse, etcetera. It would only be necessary when someone wants to go on a long, quick trip.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Saturday 2nd of April 2022 12:06:18 PM
Bicyclecamper said
03:29 PM Apr 2, 2022
Their is a truck company in Newcastle, that is doing just this, they swap the batteries in Newcastle and Brisbane, The truck just drives up, the batteries are in the front, and they use a forklift to remove the batt pack, and put a new one in, and the old batt pack is recharged. They will do the change over to electric for I think it is about $100k plus your trade in of ICE engine. Cannot remember the name. These are B double truck and trailers, and that is the range of the battery, Newcastle to Brisbane. Saw this on ABC mid last year, and at that time they have fitted about 20 trucks. Everyone whom had done it said it paid for itself in 7 months, saving fuel and wear and tear
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Saturday 2nd of April 2022 03:45:53 PM
Phlipper said
05:51 PM Apr 2, 2022
Bicyclecamper wrote:
Their is a truck company in Newcastle, that is doing just this, they swap the batteries in Newcastle and Brisbane, The truck just drives up, the batteries are in the front, and they use a forklift to remove the batt pack, and put a new one in, and the old batt pack is recharged. They will do the change over to electric for I think it is about $100k plus your trade in of ICE engine. Cannot remember the name. These are B double truck and trailers, and that is the range of the battery, Newcastle to Brisbane. Saw this on ABC mid last year, and at that time they have fitted about 20 trucks. Everyone whom had done it said it paid for itself in 7 months, saving fuel and wear and tear
Yes, that is what the video is about...Janus Truck company....it's very doable
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Saturday 2nd of April 2022 03:45:53 PM
Phlipper said
06:13 PM Apr 2, 2022
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
A long time ago there used to be such a system for electric buses (Might have been England). They drove into a garage, the batteries (acid in a frame in those days) were lowered down then new ones raised up into the bus.
There are battery swapping on small vehicles in Korea somewhere. Little EVs, like the Toyota iRoad, would be quite serviceable for the majority of city driving, most of which is with one occupant going to our from work or going shopping. If those smaller vehicles were the majority of road users then it would help with congestion and parking.
I could see battery swapping would probably work like gas bottle swapping. You just swap them and the managers of the 'service stations' would replace the old ones when needed.
I believe that it's sometimes only one or so cells that need replacing so an EV qualified, service station mechanic could easily replace those and a serviceable battery pack would be available.
Of course one wouldn't need to swap batteries that often if one could charge their EV at home, work, shopping centre, roadhouse, etcetera. It would only be necessary when someone wants to go on a long, quick trip.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Saturday 2nd of April 2022 12:06:18 PM
I believe it's quite doable but only if....if the mega rich vehicle manufacturers puts their heads together and come up with a " One for all, Swap 'n Go " system . If they, and Governments are really are serious about greenhouse gases, global warming etc then it cant be an insurmountable idea, but a worthy pursuit with a few pluses for companies and individuals. Perhaps even discourage home charging which saves $$$ on individual charge point installation, and make it all Swap 'n go Batteries that are actually owned by manufacturing companies, and thereby greatly reducing the cost of EV's purchase for individuals. Possibly also create employment in large Swap n Go Service Stations, and various battery manufacturing busineses across the country. One thing for sure is the rise of the EV is going to put a lot of mechanics on the unemployed lists, but Swap 'n Go battery manufactures will I think create jobs.
Warren-Pat_01 said
09:00 PM Apr 2, 2022
All very interesting for the future of motor vehicles if we are to go electric!
And I guess these batteries will withstand driving on corrugations ok?? I'd guess that swapping batteries over would only occur in larger towns - not the likes of Julia Creek?
I also saw a posting today about eVs being stuck on roads that have been affected by snow (how do you keep warm waiting for the road to be cleared), traffic accidents, etc. What are the operating temperatures of these batteries? Lots of questions that need to be sorted out in the near future. I guess Canada will be the perfect example when looking at operating temperatures as they go from -40 up to the +40s & a lot of their roads are covered in salt to prevent them icing up (but adding to the corrosion of the vehicle).
dabbler said
12:01 AM Apr 3, 2022
The question of how snowbound EVs fare has been answered with some severe storms and subsequent highway blockages in the US and Europe in Jan this year. Basically they came out better than ICE vehicles both during and after the highway closures. During the storms a greater percentage of ICE ran out if fuel than the percentage of EV left with no charge. After the roads opened, fuel stations couldn't handle the demand and drivers couldn't find them anyway. The EVs actually mapped out a route to the nearest suitable charge station for their drivers.
Dicko1 said
06:51 AM Apr 3, 2022
Canada has a lot of electric planes doing the short cargo runs in all kinds of temperatures. Lithium , like other batteries dont like very cold weather. Technology will sort it out. Thousands of off road vehicles and campers travelling the outback of Oz and the lithium actually holds up better to corrugations than your lead acid battery.
Whenarewethere said
07:42 AM Apr 3, 2022
When countries have these cold snaps people get caught with the wrong diesel in their tanks. Often the supply chain is caught up in a different season. Diesel has a cetane rating (petrol version of octane). Depending on the temperature of the season more additives are added so diesel will work at these lower temperatures, a sudden extreme cold snap will stop diesel engines.
Aus-Kiwi said
10:38 AM Apr 3, 2022
When top gear went to one of the poles ( north ?) they added about half ethanol to their diesel fuel . If not it hardens / waxs up ! My GM 6.5 Detroit diesel has heater in fuel system !! Not required here ! But theres places in US / Canada / Alaska that gets to -40* below overnight !! One issue with EV as said is keeping warm in vehicle!
deverall11 said
11:09 AM Apr 3, 2022
Phlipper wrote:
This may be interesting, initially doomed to failure simply because vehicle manufacturers wont standardise battery designs/sizes. How good would it be if an EV could just spend 2 minutes swapping batteries rather than lengthy recharging on the go.
-- Edited by Phlipper on Friday 1st of April 2022 10:19:06 AM
Like you do when swapping gas cylinders. Great idea moved onto a different area. One could make the design so as to facilitate easy removal. That's what I call positive thinks.
This may be interesting, initially doomed to failure simply because vehicle manufacturers wont standardise battery designs/sizes. How good would it be if an EV could just spend 2 minutes swapping batteries rather than lengthy recharging on the go.
copy/paste the link in your search engine
https://www.facebook.com/dw.business/videos/2909989829273936
-- Edited by Phlipper on Friday 1st of April 2022 10:19:06 AM
The issue is that batteries are so heavy it would be difficult to design a car without adding considerably more weight for the battery to be removable. Plus a heavy removable structurally around the battery pack.
If you have pulled a professional power tool battery pack apart, the amount of material holding the batteries together is quite a heavy percentage of the pack.
I think the remove/replace part would be solvable at a service centre designed for the purpose. Vehicle design would have to change, but I could imagine driving over a pit. A special jack would support the battery from underneath to facilitate easy removal and replacement. It could be done in a similar time as recharging would take. The cost of someone's time to do the swap would need to be factored in, so it would be dearer than recharging.
Of course, standardisation down to a few different models would be needed, but the bigger problem is what to do about differing battery ages. If I have a one year old car, do I want a 5 year old battery that may have been recharged hundreds of times? Do I get paid to do such a s swap? Vice versa, would I have to pay big $$ for a newer battery? Hardly a viable solution.
I can see a way around that, but requiring a fundamental change in our thinking. Buy the car, but never actually own the battery. It's always on rental, like leasing a car. We pay to top it up but the leasing/rental company must replace it if needed at their cost. Maybe lease costs will reduce as it ages.
Battery age is not an issue. The battery has a complete history of how it was used & abused. Every cycle & it's percentage, rate of discharge charge. Environmental effects of heat & cold. Even my 2008 DSLR camera has basic information in the camera for up to 6 batteries on battery performance.
So the battery you take out of the car will have a whole life value of X & the replacement of Y. Then you get charged a battery life value factor.
Not to forget that a new car battery starts its life at a percentage of its capacity & is gradually ramped up as the battery ages. Your new car is probably using about 80% of the actual capacity, but you as the driver will see it as 100% when you have fully charged the car. So in 10 years the battery is now being charged to 100%.
Well you can be certain that our backward looking federal gov will do nothing as sensible as encouraging this like these countries above. But private centers might do it. However there is no standard so far between manufacturers of size or type of batteries or even working voltage.
I think we are in the early days of modern battery power so various ideas will be tried. Whether battery swapping is one of the accepted ones will be known in a few years. Certainly it might suit some but I think most people will like to baby their own battery and normally charge it at their usual station. But your crystal ball is as opaque as mine so far !!
I think the technology and availability of stations for quick charging has moved forward in some big steps in the last couple of years so the time to recharge on a trip is almost not a issue now.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 1st of April 2022 05:39:24 PM
Yes, batteries would not be owned outright, and should have a life span of at least 10 yrs before noticeable degradation. Every service station could have racks full of exchange batteries being charged ready for the next customer, possibly all being recharged via Solar installations.
In a place like Australia, exchange batteries like in the video seem to make a lot of sense. Just needs all batteries shape and sizes standardised to fit all vehicle models
A long time ago there used to be such a system for electric buses (Might have been England). They drove into a garage, the batteries (acid in a frame in those days) were lowered down then new ones raised up into the bus.
There are battery swapping on small vehicles in Korea somewhere. Little EVs, like the Toyota iRoad, would be quite serviceable for the majority of city driving, most of which is with one occupant going to our from work or going shopping. If those smaller vehicles were the majority of road users then it would help with congestion and parking.
I could see battery swapping would probably work like gas bottle swapping. You just swap them and the managers of the 'service stations' would replace the old ones when needed.
I believe that it's sometimes only one or so cells that need replacing so an EV qualified, service station mechanic could easily replace those and a serviceable battery pack would be available.
Of course one wouldn't need to swap batteries that often if one could charge their EV at home, work, shopping centre, roadhouse, etcetera. It would only be necessary when someone wants to go on a long, quick trip.
-- Edited by Buzz Lightbulb on Saturday 2nd of April 2022 12:06:18 PM
Their is a truck company in Newcastle, that is doing just this, they swap the batteries in Newcastle and Brisbane, The truck just drives up, the batteries are in the front, and they use a forklift to remove the batt pack, and put a new one in, and the old batt pack is recharged. They will do the change over to electric for I think it is about $100k plus your trade in of ICE engine. Cannot remember the name. These are B double truck and trailers, and that is the range of the battery, Newcastle to Brisbane. Saw this on ABC mid last year, and at that time they have fitted about 20 trucks. Everyone whom had done it said it paid for itself in 7 months, saving fuel and wear and tear
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Saturday 2nd of April 2022 03:45:53 PM
I believe it's quite doable but only if....if the mega rich vehicle manufacturers puts their heads together and come up with a " One for all, Swap 'n Go " system . If they, and Governments are really are serious about greenhouse gases, global warming etc then it cant be an insurmountable idea, but a worthy pursuit with a few pluses for companies and individuals. Perhaps even discourage home charging which saves $$$ on individual charge point installation, and make it all Swap 'n go Batteries that are actually owned by manufacturing companies, and thereby greatly reducing the cost of EV's purchase for individuals. Possibly also create employment in large Swap n Go Service Stations, and various battery manufacturing busineses across the country. One thing for sure is the rise of the EV is going to put a lot of mechanics on the unemployed lists, but Swap 'n Go battery manufactures will I think create jobs.
And I guess these batteries will withstand driving on corrugations ok?? I'd guess that swapping batteries over would only occur in larger towns - not the likes of Julia Creek?
I also saw a posting today about eVs being stuck on roads that have been affected by snow (how do you keep warm waiting for the road to be cleared), traffic accidents, etc. What are the operating temperatures of these batteries? Lots of questions that need to be sorted out in the near future. I guess Canada will be the perfect example when looking at operating temperatures as they go from -40 up to the +40s & a lot of their roads are covered in salt to prevent them icing up (but adding to the corrosion of the vehicle).
Canada has a lot of electric planes doing the short cargo runs in all kinds of temperatures. Lithium , like other batteries dont like very cold weather. Technology will sort it out. Thousands of off road vehicles and campers travelling the outback of Oz and the lithium actually holds up better to corrugations than your lead acid battery.
When countries have these cold snaps people get caught with the wrong diesel in their tanks. Often the supply chain is caught up in a different season. Diesel has a cetane rating (petrol version of octane). Depending on the temperature of the season more additives are added so diesel will work at these lower temperatures, a sudden extreme cold snap will stop diesel engines.
Like you do when swapping gas cylinders. Great idea moved onto a different area. One could make the design so as to facilitate easy removal. That's what I call positive thinks.