Towball Weight, Caravan Design and Proper Loading.
yobarr said
10:13 PM Dec 16, 2022
Recently I visited a business that supplies a wide range of caravan parts, and also offers a complete caravan repair service. As I neared the entrance to the business I noticed an older couple messing around with one of those so-called "towball weight scales", so I stopped to chat. The van was a single axle so-called "off road" model, with good ground clearance and wide 15" wheels with flash AT tyres, but the axle was waaay too far back, with very little rear overhang. They had just purchased a flash new jockey wheel which had two wheels, and was allegedly the "bees' knees" of jockey wheels, and they now were in the process of pre-purchase testing a "towball weight scale". Seems their previous factory fitted jockey wheel had simply collapsed under the towball weight when they dropped the van at a van park to go exploring. Because I had previously bought and tested several different models of towball scales I knew how hopelessly inaccurate they are, with my tests not only giving a wide range of readings, but none was anywhere near correct, so I offered to test their weight for them. Towball weight was close to 350kg so we then looked for ways to reduce this, but it soon became apparent that the problem was simply poor design. All 3 water tanks were in front of the axle, with nothing except a couple of bicycles on the rear bumper. The solitary spare wheel sat on the drawbar, in front of a HUGE factory-fitted "toolbox" that had all manner of "stuff" in it. Because their tow vehicle was a single-cab 79 series Landcruiser ute with an enclosed steel canopy we discussed putting the van's spare wheel in there for a start, but they already had 2 spare 16" wheels in there, along with all sorts of other "essentials". The previous day they had weighed the 'van and told that, loaded and ready for travel, it weighed 2600kg. Because towball weight was 350kg it followed that GTM ( weight on van wheels) was 2250kg, but ATM was only 2600kg, so I was snookered. Because the 79 has a rear axle capacity of 2300kg ex-factory, and this car had had a GVM upgrade, we decided to run the whole thing over a weighbridge to check axle weights. Bad news! Front axle was only 1200kg, rear axle 2600kg and van's axle was 2250kg, for all-up weight (GCM?) of 6050kg. Clearly their car was poorly loaded. The van's AGR (Axle group rating) was 2600kg so I suggested that it might be worth getting an ATM upgrade to maybe 2900kg and shifting a couple of water tanks to behind the axle. Problem was that they were around 4000km from their home. Since I could do little more to assist I suggested that they simply had to get rid of weight out of the car and run with empty water tanks, perhaps carrying a couple of 20 litre jerry cans of water inside the van, behind the axle. Like so many people, this couple had little understanding of weights, thinking that they were safe with their GVM upgraded LC79, but they had been caught out by poor caravan design that had the forward length at least 3 times the rear overhang. Caveat Emptor. Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 16th of December 2022 10:19:03 PM
simply poor design. All 3 water tanks were in front of the axle, with nothing...
A bit of free advice, these caravan companies should use an engineer to figure out the load distribution, or for that matter at least get the services of a primary school student to do the calcs, not difficult stuff.
Possum3 said
05:42 AM Dec 17, 2022
Whilst ever manufacturers are not facing any consequences for advising customers of incorrect total weights and bad designs that are dangerous, they will continue to dupe the gullible public - when they are buying caravans and dare say I tow-vehicles that are not suitable for the task.
The quality issue with caravans is another issue that seriously needs to be addressed by legislators.
Warren-Pat_01 said
09:13 AM Dec 17, 2022
My wife reckons that I am pedantic when I look at buying a 2nd hand car, caravan. Yes, it's nice to check out the inside including under the seats but it's equally important to CHECK the UNDERNEATH! Th,,at's where the hidden secrets live. I got caught once - never again!
There is a tale of woe also in the Techies column where a member bought a 2nd hand D-Max - complete with some after market "modifications" such as a bashed sump & fuel tank as well as under body cracks
A caravan built this way should never have been allowed on the road especially when there are three water tanks fitted in front of the axle & the temptation to fill them up every time the van is used. Were they there originally or was one added by a previous owner if it was a 2nd hand unit? No-one would know unless the installation was done unprofessionally.
With a number of shonky suppliers of vehicles, vans these days it is important to check everything.
RickJ said
10:34 AM Dec 17, 2022
I can picture Yobarr popping out like *wallet wizard* to save yet another unsuspecting caravanner.
Yobarr you either must be a good fighter or a fast runner.
yobarr said
11:32 AM Dec 17, 2022
RickJ wrote:
I can picture Yobarr popping out like *wallet wizard* to save yet another unsuspecting caravanner.
Yobarr you either must be a good fighter or a fast runner.
Hi Rick.Your "Wallet Wizard" analogy is funny (Ha Ha) in that the vast majority of people I meet and speak with about weights are actually most interested to learn, although I still get the occasional furphy from older folk "I've been towing this 3500kg van with this Triton (or whatever) for a million miles mate. No worries mate. Ya just gotta drive to the conditions mate", or other such rubbish. Recently I spoke with a couple who had a huge van behind their Ram 1500, having been convinced by a salesman that the Ram 1500 can "Tow 4500kg Mate. No worries Mate" but when I showed them the facts and figures they just looked at each other. "I knew we should have bought that Ram 2500" he said, and they decided on the spot to head back to Perth to get rid of the much over rated and misunderstood Ram 1500. Generally, many owners of the popular twin-cab utes understand that these cars can't safely tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer, and select their van accordingly, but these folk then make the mistake of piling heaps of "essentials" into the tray of the car. Party over. LC200 owners are another group that seems to have little real understanding of weights, but once I show them the facts, which often includes me doing their towball weight and calculations, they generally understand. The rubbish about this car being "The most popular tow vehicle in Australia" does not stand scrutiny as this car cannot safely tow much more than about 3000kg, GVM upgrade or not, but the "sheep" mentality is apparent. Those who have paid $4000 (or whatever the cost is) for a GVM upgrade often are most indignant and have to be treated with kid gloves when facts are pointed out and explained. Because I am now a bit too old to be either a good fighter or a fast runner, at Happy Hour, if asked about weights, I speak only in general terms, saving the specifics for the next day. Many of the people I speak with are most thankful for advice, but the occasional Pig Headed fella just doesn't want to know. C'est la vie. Cheers
I have only one word to say to you... paragraphs.... :)
yobarr said
01:12 PM Dec 17, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
Yobarr:
I have only one word to say to you... paragraphs.... :)
Mike, I'm not sure if you're simply being pedantic, or your memory is failing, but this matter has been addressed previously. To stop the incessant bleatings of one member I now separate full stops from the first letter of a new sentence, but because I am not at all computer literate I cannot get a new paragraph to start at the side of a page. If I write in this manner it all looks good until I press "submit post" and then the new sentence is likely to start anywhere on the page! Disaster. From the many responses that I get to my posts it seems that the vast majority of readers manage to understand what is written. Perhaps you're different, or are you simply being difficult? Cheers
P.S Couple of funnies to brighten your apparently dull day!
Mike, I'm not sure if you're simply being pedantic,
Yobarr!
Coming from the man who frequently corrects people's grammar that is priceless :)
Craig1 said
01:37 PM Dec 17, 2022
Yobarr, just try " Enter or Return " every couple of sentence's, after your full stop and space bar. That will at least give a small break.
yobarr said
02:26 PM Dec 17, 2022
Craig1 wrote:
Yobarr, just try " Enter or Return " every couple of sentence's, after your full stop and space bar. That will at least give a small break.
Thanks Craig. I'll give that a shot! Cheers
Bobdown said
03:27 PM Dec 17, 2022
Craig1 wrote:
Yobarr, just try " Enter or Return " every couple of sentence's, after your full stop and space bar. That will at least give a small break.
Yobarr should give us all a small break from the usual Ram 1500, LC 200 lecture every time he makes a post........
Shouldn't this be in the weights section anyway?
Are We Lost said
03:30 PM Dec 17, 2022
You managed it with a separate paragraph to say "P.S A couple of funnies ....".
Not that hard is it?
Compare the readability of your 11:32am post today with Warren's 4 separate paragraphs a couple of hours earlier. In fact, compare to just about anyone's posts on this forum.
Dougwe said
04:31 PM Dec 17, 2022
Bobdown wrote:
Craig1 wrote:
Yobarr, just try " Enter or Return " every couple of sentence's, after your full stop and space bar. That will at least give a small break.
Yobarr should give us all a small break from the usual Ram 1500, LC 200 lecture every time he makes a post........
Shouldn't this be in the weights section anyway?
Spot on Bob.
Ooops, that's my head on the chopping block now.
I did come into this thread by mistake anyway.
yobarr said
04:32 PM Dec 17, 2022
Bobdown wrote:
Craig1 wrote:
Yobarr, just try " Enter or Return " every couple of sentence's, after your full stop and space bar. That will at least give a small break.
Yobarr should give us all a small break from the usual Ram 1500, LC 200 lecture every time he makes a post........
Shouldn't this be in the weights section anyway?
As always, Bob, great to see your another of your positive contributions. The reason that I chose the General section for this thread is that this is where newbies and others with little understanding of weights would be more likely to stumble across the topic and be alerted to another of the many dangers faced by the gullible, and those that are uneducated in weights etc. As you'd no doubt understand, ignorance is bliss. My rote-learning method of presenting indisputable facts is a most effective method of alerting owners to the inadequacies of vehicles that may have been misrepresented to them at the time of purchase.The fact that owners are not overjoyed by my indisputable advice is of little concern to me. Don't shoot the messenger. Cheers
P.S Nic's cafe does a lovely breakfast, does it not?
Bobdown said
05:20 PM Dec 17, 2022
yobarr wrote:
Bobdown wrote:
Craig1 wrote:
Yobarr, just try " Enter or Return " every couple of sentence's, after your full stop and space bar. That will at least give a small break.
Yobarr should give us all a small break from the usual Ram 1500, LC 200 lecture every time he makes a post........
Shouldn't this be in the weights section anyway?
As always, Bob, great to see your another of your positive contributions. The reason that I chose the General section for this thread is that this is where newbies and others with little understanding of weights would be more likely to stumble across the topic and be alerted to another of the many dangers faced by the gullible, and those that are uneducated in weights etc. As you'd no doubt understand, ignorance is bliss. My rote-learning method of presenting indisputable facts is a most effective method of alerting owners to the inadequacies of vehicles that may have been misrepresented to them at the time of purchase.The fact that owners are not overjoyed by my indisputable advice is of little concern to me. Don't shoot the messenger. Cheers
P.S Nic's cafe does a lovely breakfast, does it not?
Yobarr, I only state what a lot of others are thinking..........it's been done to death, and I'm not talking about your punctuation marks.
Only ever been to Nic's for lunch, not bad........ but not a fan of old grade one chairs and tables. Cheers Bob
Edit: To suggest to someone that they could upgrade to 2900 kg on a single axle van is not good advice IMHO, off road van or not.
-- Edited by Bobdown on Saturday 17th of December 2022 05:49:00 PM
yobarr said
06:29 PM Dec 17, 2022
Bobdown wrote:
yobarr...it's been done to death, and I'm not talking about your punctuation marks.
Bob, surely you would realise that no matter how many times something is written, always there will be new readers, be they members new to the forum, or current members who have suddenly realised, or suspect, that their weights are not quite right and are seeking help. This is why many of my posts appear repetitive. Using your logic, would you suggest that because the local maths teacher taught maths in 2022 he should not bother teaching maths in 2023? Of course not. New pupils. Simple stuff. Because last years students should already have learned the lessons there is no need for them to take part. Same here. If my posts discuss WDHs or the inadequacies of certain vehicles, and you think that you already know about such things or have no interest in learning, just skip to the next topic. The distressed couple that I helped last week thought that because they had a GVM upgraded LC79 and were towing a caravan with ATM of only 2600kg, everything would he Honky Dory. It wasn't, and their car's rear axle was overloaded to the point of stupidity. These are the sorts of people that I regularly help, sometimes by PM, sometimes in person, and if my posting of their experience helps just one other person to avoid falling for the spiel of caravan sellers or car salesmen, it will all have been worthwhile. The more often I point out the indesputable inadequacies of the 2 vehicles you mention, the greater is the chance of me helping prevent another poor buyer falling for the rubbish in the advertising brochures, and the spiel of a slick salesman. Cheers
P.S You no doubt will have noticed that for around 2 months I posted very little. This was because I was doing loooong hours on the Roadtrain and couldn't devote the time, or the level of concentration needed to post helpful facts. A dispute over meals saw me park the truck,start the car and depart. Too old to bother with people who try to change the rules in the middle of the game! Have a great Xmas Bob. Cheers
RickJ said
06:48 PM Dec 17, 2022
Hi Yobarr,
Have you ever given any thought to becoming a weights advisor for the towing fraternity?
It appears that you have a caravan and a vehicle that is all compliant and with a little sign writing and maybe some printed point check forms and informative pamphlets and business cards you could become the
*Wandering Weight Warrior*
travelling our land and ensuring that all those who dont know about towing weights, actually learn from an expert.
Rather than rely on public weighbridges, for not too much cost you could invest in a set of those portable type scales that would then give you the flexibility to correct those needing correction while on the spot.
Food for thought yobarr.
PS if you use that WWW for a business name I want a kickback.
-- Edited by RickJ on Saturday 17th of December 2022 06:50:32 PM
yobarr said
07:21 PM Dec 17, 2022
RickJ wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
Have you ever given any thought to becoming a weights advisor for the towing fraternity?
It appears that you have a caravan and a vehicle that is all compliant and with a little sign writing and maybe some printed point check forms and informative pamphlets and business cards you could become the
*Wandering Weight Warrior*
travelling our land and ensuring that all those who dont know about towing weights, actually learn from an expert.
Rather than rely on public weighbridges, for not too much cost you could invest in a set of those portable type scales that would then give you the flexibility to correct those needing correction while on the spot.
Food for thought yobarr.
PS if you use that WWW for a business name I want a kickback.
Hi Rick. What you suggest sounds like a great idea, but I get great satisfaction from simply helping those folk who don't really understand weights, or have been led astray by shifty salesmen, or by well-intentioned but ill-informed friends, family or forum members. Small family type businesses are OK because their staff are unlikely to be on a commission-based income structure. One of the biggest problems I face when addressing a group of caravanners is the one Big Mouth Know-it-all who knows nothing but argues everything. It is not uncommon for me to simply stop, then say "Hey I'll do the talking. You do the listening". Sometimes the noisy one takes his bat and ball, and heads for home, but usually his mates will then tell him to simply listen. Once they actually stop arguing with me,and listen to what I'm saying they soon realise that I know what I'm talking about. Many times on this forum I have been challenged to produce evidence of qualifications, and every time my response has been the same. With weights there is no need for any formal qualifications, as it's all simple physics. One does not need to be a meteorologist to know it's raining! Cheers
Bobdown said
07:27 PM Dec 17, 2022
Yobarr wrote: P.S You no doubt will have noticed that for around 2 months I posted very little. This was because I was doing loooong hours on the Roadtrain and couldn't devote the time, or the level of concentration needed to post helpful facts. A dispute over meals saw me park the truck, start the car and depart. Too old to bother with people who try to change the rules in the middle of the game! Have a great Xmas Bob. Cheers
Hey Wallet Wizard, don't think we didn't notice how quiet it was without you, nice and peaceful. Maybe you can get another job after the New Year.
Merry Xmas Chris.
Cheers Bob
-- Edited by Bobdown on Saturday 17th of December 2022 07:28:04 PM
yobarr said
07:31 PM Dec 17, 2022
Edit: To suggest to someone that they could upgrade to 2900 kg on a single axle van is not good advice IMHO, off road van or not.
Hi Bob. Forgot to address your assertion above. This van already had AGR (Axle Group Rating) of 2600kg, so 2900kg ATM was simply a number I picked to illustrate a point. If he chose to upgrade his AGR above 2800kg he would have needed to fit 12" brakes, I believe. There are some who claim that ATM can't exceed AGR, but they're wrong. As far as I can recall you're allowed up to 3000kg on a single axle, and this fella already was running 2600kg on his car's rear axle! My car (and van) tyres are rated at 1550kg each. Cheers
yobarr said
07:54 PM Dec 17, 2022
Bobdown wrote:
Yobarr wrote: P.S You no doubt will have noticed that for around 2 months I posted very little. This was because I was doing loooong hours on the Roadtrain and couldn't devote the time, or the level of concentration needed to post helpful facts. A dispute over meals saw me park the truck, start the car and depart. Too old to bother with people who try to change the rules in the middle of the game! Have a great Xmas Bob. Cheers
Hey Wallet Wizard, don't think we didn't notice how quiet it was without you, nice and peaceful. Maybe you can get another job after the New Year.
Merry Xmas Chris.
Cheers Bob
No plans at this stage Bob. Was going to go West to Bunbury etc but roads are too busy to travel at a leisurely speed without holding up traffic. Maybe a few weeks on Nullarbor Plain, but still have lots of things to do and see. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 17th of December 2022 07:56:38 PM
Gee yobarr, you're not going far!
A few weeks on the Nullabor - on the bitumen or the dirt along the Trans Line? If the latter, yes that could be interesting but too hot at this time of the year.
If the former - there are two signs near Nullarbor homestead (or road house) stating that you are entering the Nullarbor Plain - if my memory is correct, they are about 15kms apart. So is that where you are holidaying? Mind you there is quite a bit to keep yourself occupied - blow holes, caves & just south west of the Roadhouse, there is one break in the cliffs. Don't fall in as there is a lot of water below the cliffs.
It was amazing what some of us found as we spent many a day on the EYRE HIGHWAY working on the East-West microwave system - both in SA & WA, & both on the old dirt & new highways between the late 1960s & 2000s.
Merry Christmas.
Blues Man said
08:35 AM Dec 18, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
Yobarr:
I have only one word to say to you... paragraphs.... :)
I agree with Mike Harding Yobarr, you must learn to paragraph.
I started to read your post then about half way through it i gave up . All the words were so close together that i lost my place
and then i gave up reading the rest , but hey , each to their own.
Cheers.
yobarr said
12:06 PM Dec 18, 2022
Blues Man wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Yobarr:
I have only one word to say to you... paragraphs.... :)
I agree with Mike Harding Yobarr, you must learn to paragraph.
I started to read your post then about half way through it i gave up . All the words were so close together that i lost my place
and then i gave up reading the rest , but hey , each to their own.
Cheers.
Hi Patrick. Perhaps, unlike Mike, you have not seen my previous explanations of why my posts have no paragraphs, as such. You can rest assured that I have a very good command of grammar, punctuation and the English language, but my iPad won't play the game!
If I start a new paragraph at the left margin, when I post the script the paragraph seems to start in any one of a number of places on the viewer's screen.
In order to assist those whose concentration span does not seem long enough to uninterruptedly read a few lines I will make enquiries with an iPad expert when next I am in a bigger town. Cheers.
yobarr said
12:31 PM Dec 18, 2022
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
Gee yobarr, you're not going far! A few weeks on the Nullabor - on the bitumen or the dirt along the Trans Line? If the latter, yes that could be interesting but too hot at this time of the year. If the former - there are two signs near Nullarbor homestead (or road house) stating that you are entering the Nullarbor Plain - if my memory is correct, they are about 15kms apart. So is that where you are holidaying? Mind you there is quite a bit to keep yourself occupied - blow holes, caves & just south west of the Roadhouse, there is one break in the cliffs. Don't fall in as there is a lot of water below the cliffs.
It was amazing what some of us found as we spent many a day on the EYRE HIGHWAY working on the East-West microwave system - both in SA & WA, & both on the old dirt & new highways between the late 1960s & 2000s.
Merry Christmas.
Hi Warren. Interesting post tgat I will address later today. Thanks for advice so far. Cheers
RickJ said
03:43 PM Dec 18, 2022
yobarr wrote:
RickJ wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
Have you ever given any thought to becoming a weights advisor for the towing fraternity?
It appears that you have a caravan and a vehicle that is all compliant and with a little sign writing and maybe some printed point check forms and informative pamphlets and business cards you could become the
*Wandering Weight Warrior*
travelling our land and ensuring that all those who dont know about towing weights, actually learn from an expert.
Rather than rely on public weighbridges, for not too much cost you could invest in a set of those portable type scales that would then give you the flexibility to correct those needing correction while on the spot.
Food for thought yobarr.
PS if you use that WWW for a business name I want a kickback.
Hi Rick. What you suggest sounds like a great idea, but I get great satisfaction from simply helping those folk who don't really understand weights, or have been led astray by shifty salesmen, or by well-intentioned but ill-informed friends, family or forum members. Small family type businesses are OK because their staff are unlikely to be on a commission-based income structure. One of the biggest problems I face when addressing a group of caravanners is the one Big Mouth Know-it-all who knows nothing but argues everything. It is not uncommon for me to simply stop, then say "Hey I'll do the talking. You do the listening". Sometimes the noisy one takes his bat and ball, and heads for home, but usually his mates will then tell him to simply listen. Once they actually stop arguing with me,and listen to what I'm saying they soon realise that I know what I'm talking about. Many times on this forum I have been challenged to produce evidence of qualifications, and every time my response has been the same. With weights there is no need for any formal qualifications, as it's all simple physics. One does not need to be a meteorologist to know it's raining! Cheers
Yobarr, I have noted that you have been asked on many occasions to qualify your knowledge or more to the point, the advice you offer to others.
As I was reading some posts of yours it got me wondering how valid your advice is when you clearly and openly state that the use of a WDH when towing a caravan is not required and I have noticed that you have gone further at times suggesting that the use of such equipment would be dangerous in your opinion.
It is a brave man that may be quoting information which may be in fact incorrect and that the recommendation of not using approved equipment that has been designed and marketed to achieve a certain result, might be bordering on litigious.
I am not here arguing that you are in fact correct or incorrect, I dont know and will leave it to others.
The forum admin is very liberal when it comes to some comments within topics on here. I wonder if their concern would ever be related to the possibility of incorrect and, or, dangerous advice being offered.
I wonder also could the forum become liable for permitting comments, if they were deemed to be dangerous or litigious in a court of law.
Your reference to others in previous topics at times has been quite demeaning to those members.
Maybe if you were to become a recognised instructor or to gain some cred, you might follow a new tactic to get your view across.
Here is a small tale which may help you when trying to help others.
An old man meets a young man who asks:
Do you remember me?
And the old man says no. Then the young man tells him he was his student, And the teacher asks:
What do you do, what do you do in life?
The young man answers:
Well, I became a teacher.
ah, how good, like me? Asks the old man.
Well, yes. In fact, I became a teacher because you inspired me to be like you.
The old man, curious, asks the young man at what time he decided to become a teacher. And the young man tells him the following story:
One day, a friend of mine, also a student, came in with a nice new watch, and I decided I wanted it and I stole it, I took it out of his pocket.
Shortly after, my friend noticed the flight and immediately complained to our teacher, who was you. Then you went to the class:
This students watch was stolen during classes today. Whoever stole it, please return it.
I didnt give it back because I didnt want to. Then you closed the door and told us all to get up and you were going to search our pockets one by one until the watch was found. But you told us to close our eyes, because you would only look for his watch if we all had our eyes closed.
So we did, and you went from pocket to pocket, and when you went through my pocket, you found the watch and took it. You kept searching everyones pockets, and when you were done you said
open your eyes. We have the watch.
You didnt tell me and you never mentioned the episode. You never said who stole the watch either. That day you saved my dignity forever. It was the most shameful day of my life.
But this is also the day my dignity was saved and I decided not to become a thief, a bad person, etc. You never said anything, nor even scold me or took me aside to give me a moral lesson, I received your message clearly.
And thanks to you, I understood what a real educator needs to do. Do you remember this episode, professor?
And the professor answers:
I remember the situation, the stolen watch, which I was looking for in everyones pocket, but I didnt remember you, because I also closed my eyes while looking.
This is the essence of teaching:
If to correct you must humiliate; you dont know how to teach.
-- Edited by RickJ on Sunday 18th of December 2022 03:49:39 PM
jegog said
01:18 AM Jan 26, 2023
Just checking for the effect described by Yobar of his entries submitted by iPad.
New paragraph.
Seems ok so far.
But I have my iPad in a cover with an incorporated keyboard.
This is my fourth iPad and I have never experienced what Yobar describes.
Maybe Yobar needed to trade in his trusty old iPad.
That is not the iPads normal behavior.
Greg 1 said
03:30 AM Jan 26, 2023
If you enter the forum under the section of new posts, my tablet and phone will not put in paragraphs despite actually typing it in like that.
It might look good with paragraphs on the screen but when you push post, it comes out with no paragraphs. It is something weird with this particular forum.
If i enter the forum into the full site and then into my section, the paragraphs that I put in the reply stay there when I post the reply.
jegog said
04:44 PM Jan 27, 2023
I see what you mean Greg.
New subject posts are composed in a markup editorwheere the composer can add styling to the text whereas the replies are composed in a text box where line breaks are converted to html paragraphs tags.
But it has tabs to switch between Visual and HTML.
I tried and entered several lines of test and then switched to HTMP and all the lines are enclosed within p tags.
Looked at an old new subject post and there were p tags where expected.
Can't understand it.
Recently I visited a business that supplies a wide range of caravan parts, and also offers a complete caravan repair service. As I neared the entrance to the business I noticed an older couple messing around with one of those so-called "towball weight scales", so I stopped to chat. The van was a single axle so-called "off road" model, with good ground clearance and wide 15" wheels with flash AT tyres, but the axle was waaay too far back, with very little rear overhang. They had just purchased a flash new jockey wheel which had two wheels, and was allegedly the "bees' knees" of jockey wheels, and they now were in the process of pre-purchase testing a "towball weight scale". Seems their previous factory fitted jockey wheel had simply collapsed under the towball weight when they dropped the van at a van park to go exploring. Because I had previously bought and tested several different models of towball scales I knew how hopelessly inaccurate they are, with my tests not only giving a wide range of readings, but none was anywhere near correct, so I offered to test their weight for them. Towball weight was close to 350kg so we then looked for ways to reduce this, but it soon became apparent that the problem was simply poor design. All 3 water tanks were in front of the axle, with nothing except a couple of bicycles on the rear bumper. The solitary spare wheel sat on the drawbar, in front of a HUGE factory-fitted "toolbox" that had all manner of "stuff" in it. Because their tow vehicle was a single-cab 79 series Landcruiser ute with an enclosed steel canopy we discussed putting the van's spare wheel in there for a start, but they already had 2 spare 16" wheels in there, along with all sorts of other "essentials". The previous day they had weighed the 'van and told that, loaded and ready for travel, it weighed 2600kg. Because towball weight was 350kg it followed that GTM ( weight on van wheels) was 2250kg, but ATM was only 2600kg, so I was snookered. Because the 79 has a rear axle capacity of 2300kg ex-factory, and this car had had a GVM upgrade, we decided to run the whole thing over a weighbridge to check axle weights. Bad news! Front axle was only 1200kg, rear axle 2600kg and van's axle was 2250kg, for all-up weight (GCM?) of 6050kg. Clearly their car was poorly loaded. The van's AGR (Axle group rating) was 2600kg so I suggested that it might be worth getting an ATM upgrade to maybe 2900kg and shifting a couple of water tanks to behind the axle. Problem was that they were around 4000km from their home. Since I could do little more to assist I suggested that they simply had to get rid of weight out of the car and run with empty water tanks, perhaps carrying a couple of 20 litre jerry cans of water inside the van, behind the axle. Like so many people, this couple had little understanding of weights, thinking that they were safe with their GVM upgraded LC79, but they had been caught out by poor caravan design that had the forward length at least 3 times the rear overhang. Caveat Emptor. Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 16th of December 2022 10:19:03 PM
A bit of free advice, these caravan companies should use an engineer to figure out the load distribution, or for that matter at least get the services of a primary school student to do the calcs, not difficult stuff.
The quality issue with caravans is another issue that seriously needs to be addressed by legislators.
There is a tale of woe also in the Techies column where a member bought a 2nd hand D-Max - complete with some after market "modifications" such as a bashed sump & fuel tank as well as under body cracks
A caravan built this way should never have been allowed on the road especially when there are three water tanks fitted in front of the axle & the temptation to fill them up every time the van is used. Were they there originally or was one added by a previous owner if it was a 2nd hand unit? No-one would know unless the installation was done unprofessionally.
With a number of shonky suppliers of vehicles, vans these days it is important to check everything.
Yobarr you either must be a good fighter or a fast runner.
Hi Rick.Your "Wallet Wizard" analogy is funny (Ha Ha) in that the vast majority of people I meet and speak with about weights are actually most interested to learn, although I still get the occasional furphy from older folk "I've been towing this 3500kg van with this Triton (or whatever) for a million miles mate. No worries mate. Ya just gotta drive to the conditions mate", or other such rubbish. Recently I spoke with a couple who had a huge van behind their Ram 1500, having been convinced by a salesman that the Ram 1500 can "Tow 4500kg Mate. No worries Mate" but when I showed them the facts and figures they just looked at each other. "I knew we should have bought that Ram 2500" he said, and they decided on the spot to head back to Perth to get rid of the much over rated and misunderstood Ram 1500. Generally, many owners of the popular twin-cab utes understand that these cars can't safely tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer, and select their van accordingly, but these folk then make the mistake of piling heaps of "essentials" into the tray of the car. Party over. LC200 owners are another group that seems to have little real understanding of weights, but once I show them the facts, which often includes me doing their towball weight and calculations, they generally understand. The rubbish about this car being "The most popular tow vehicle in Australia" does not stand scrutiny as this car cannot safely tow much more than about 3000kg, GVM upgrade or not, but the "sheep" mentality is apparent. Those who have paid $4000 (or whatever the cost is) for a GVM upgrade often are most indignant and have to be treated with kid gloves when facts are pointed out and explained. Because I am now a bit too old to be either a good fighter or a fast runner, at Happy Hour, if asked about weights, I speak only in general terms, saving the specifics for the next day. Many of the people I speak with are most thankful for advice, but the occasional Pig Headed fella just doesn't want to know. C'est la vie. Cheers
"All legal Mate". Yeah, right.
Yobarr:
I have only one word to say to you... paragraphs.... :)
Mike, I'm not sure if you're simply being pedantic, or your memory is failing, but this matter has been addressed previously. To stop the incessant bleatings of one member I now separate full stops from the first letter of a new sentence, but because I am not at all computer literate I cannot get a new paragraph to start at the side of a page. If I write in this manner it all looks good until I press "submit post" and then the new sentence is likely to start anywhere on the page! Disaster. From the many responses that I get to my posts it seems that the vast majority of readers manage to understand what is written. Perhaps you're different, or are you simply being difficult? Cheers
P.S Couple of funnies to brighten your apparently dull day!
Yobarr!
Coming from the man who frequently corrects people's grammar that is priceless :)
Thanks Craig. I'll give that a shot! Cheers
Yobarr should give us all a small break from the usual Ram 1500, LC 200 lecture every time he makes a post........
Shouldn't this be in the weights section anyway?
Not that hard is it?
Compare the readability of your 11:32am post today with Warren's 4 separate paragraphs a couple of hours earlier. In fact, compare to just about anyone's posts on this forum.
Spot on Bob.
Ooops, that's my head on the chopping block now.
I did come into this thread by mistake anyway.
As always, Bob, great to see your another of your positive contributions. The reason that I chose the General section for this thread is that this is where newbies and others with little understanding of weights would be more likely to stumble across the topic and be alerted to another of the many dangers faced by the gullible, and those that are uneducated in weights etc. As you'd no doubt understand, ignorance is bliss. My rote-learning method of presenting indisputable facts is a most effective method of alerting owners to the inadequacies of vehicles that may have been misrepresented to them at the time of purchase.The fact that owners are not overjoyed by my indisputable advice is of little concern to me. Don't shoot the messenger. Cheers
P.S Nic's cafe does a lovely breakfast, does it not?
Yobarr, I only state what a lot of others are thinking..........it's been done to death, and I'm not talking about your punctuation marks.
Only ever been to Nic's for lunch, not bad........ but not a fan of old grade one chairs and tables. Cheers Bob
Edit: To suggest to someone that they could upgrade to 2900 kg on a single axle van is not good advice IMHO, off road van or not.
-- Edited by Bobdown on Saturday 17th of December 2022 05:49:00 PM
Bob, surely you would realise that no matter how many times something is written, always there will be new readers, be they members new to the forum, or current members who have suddenly realised, or suspect, that their weights are not quite right and are seeking help. This is why many of my posts appear repetitive. Using your logic, would you suggest that because the local maths teacher taught maths in 2022 he should not bother teaching maths in 2023? Of course not. New pupils. Simple stuff. Because last years students should already have learned the lessons there is no need for them to take part. Same here. If my posts discuss WDHs or the inadequacies of certain vehicles, and you think that you already know about such things or have no interest in learning, just skip to the next topic. The distressed couple that I helped last week thought that because they had a GVM upgraded LC79 and were towing a caravan with ATM of only 2600kg, everything would he Honky Dory. It wasn't, and their car's rear axle was overloaded to the point of stupidity. These are the sorts of people that I regularly help, sometimes by PM, sometimes in person, and if my posting of their experience helps just one other person to avoid falling for the spiel of caravan sellers or car salesmen, it will all have been worthwhile. The more often I point out the indesputable inadequacies of the 2 vehicles you mention, the greater is the chance of me helping prevent another poor buyer falling for the rubbish in the advertising brochures, and the spiel of a slick salesman. Cheers
P.S You no doubt will have noticed that for around 2 months I posted very little. This was because I was doing loooong hours on the Roadtrain and couldn't devote the time, or the level of concentration needed to post helpful facts. A dispute over meals saw me park the truck,start the car and depart. Too old to bother with people who try to change the rules in the middle of the game! Have a great Xmas Bob. Cheers
Hi Yobarr,
Have you ever given any thought to becoming a weights advisor for the towing fraternity?
It appears that you have a caravan and a vehicle that is all compliant and with a little sign writing and maybe some printed point check forms and informative pamphlets and business cards you could become the
*Wandering Weight Warrior*
travelling our land and ensuring that all those who dont know about towing weights, actually learn from an expert.
Rather than rely on public weighbridges, for not too much cost you could invest in a set of those portable type scales that would then give you the flexibility to correct those needing correction while on the spot.
Food for thought yobarr.
PS if you use that WWW for a business name I want a kickback.
-- Edited by RickJ on Saturday 17th of December 2022 06:50:32 PM
Hi Rick. What you suggest sounds like a great idea, but I get great satisfaction from simply helping those folk who don't really understand weights, or have been led astray by shifty salesmen, or by well-intentioned but ill-informed friends, family or forum members. Small family type businesses are OK because their staff are unlikely to be on a commission-based income structure. One of the biggest problems I face when addressing a group of caravanners is the one Big Mouth Know-it-all who knows nothing but argues everything. It is not uncommon for me to simply stop, then say "Hey I'll do the talking. You do the listening". Sometimes the noisy one takes his bat and ball, and heads for home, but usually his mates will then tell him to simply listen. Once they actually stop arguing with me,and listen to what I'm saying they soon realise that I know what I'm talking about. Many times on this forum I have been challenged to produce evidence of qualifications, and every time my response has been the same. With weights there is no need for any formal qualifications, as it's all simple physics. One does not need to be a meteorologist to know it's raining! Cheers
Yobarr wrote: P.S You no doubt will have noticed that for around 2 months I posted very little. This was because I was doing loooong hours on the Roadtrain and couldn't devote the time, or the level of concentration needed to post helpful facts. A dispute over meals saw me park the truck, start the car and depart. Too old to bother with people who try to change the rules in the middle of the game! Have a great Xmas Bob. Cheers
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hey Wallet Wizard, don't think we didn't notice how quiet it was without you, nice and peaceful. Maybe you can get another job after the New Year.
Merry Xmas Chris.
Cheers Bob
-- Edited by Bobdown on Saturday 17th of December 2022 07:28:04 PM
Hi Bob. Forgot to address your assertion above. This van already had AGR (Axle Group Rating) of 2600kg, so 2900kg ATM was simply a number I picked to illustrate a point. If he chose to upgrade his AGR above 2800kg he would have needed to fit 12" brakes, I believe. There are some who claim that ATM can't exceed AGR, but they're wrong. As far as I can recall you're allowed up to 3000kg on a single axle, and this fella already was running 2600kg on his car's rear axle! My car (and van) tyres are rated at 1550kg each. Cheers
No plans at this stage Bob. Was going to go West to Bunbury etc but roads are too busy to travel at a leisurely speed without holding up traffic. Maybe a few weeks on Nullarbor Plain, but still have lots of things to do and see. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 17th of December 2022 07:56:38 PM
A few weeks on the Nullabor - on the bitumen or the dirt along the Trans Line? If the latter, yes that could be interesting but too hot at this time of the year.
If the former - there are two signs near Nullarbor homestead (or road house) stating that you are entering the Nullarbor Plain - if my memory is correct, they are about 15kms apart. So is that where you are holidaying? Mind you there is quite a bit to keep yourself occupied - blow holes, caves & just south west of the Roadhouse, there is one break in the cliffs. Don't fall in as there is a lot of water below the cliffs.
It was amazing what some of us found as we spent many a day on the EYRE HIGHWAY working on the East-West microwave system - both in SA & WA, & both on the old dirt & new highways between the late 1960s & 2000s.
Merry Christmas.
I agree with Mike Harding Yobarr, you must learn to paragraph.
I started to read your post then about half way through it i gave up . All the words were so close together that i lost my place
and then i gave up reading the rest , but hey , each to their own.
Cheers.
Hi Patrick. Perhaps, unlike Mike, you have not seen my previous explanations of why my posts have no paragraphs, as such. You can rest assured that I have a very good command of grammar, punctuation and the English language, but my iPad won't play the game!
If I start a new paragraph at the left margin, when I post the script the paragraph seems to start in any one of a number of places on the viewer's screen.
In order to assist those whose concentration span does not seem long enough to uninterruptedly read a few lines I will make enquiries with an iPad expert when next I am in a bigger town. Cheers.
Hi Warren. Interesting post tgat I will address later today. Thanks for advice so far. Cheers
Yobarr, I have noted that you have been asked on many occasions to qualify your knowledge or more to the point, the advice you offer to others.
As I was reading some posts of yours it got me wondering how valid your advice is when you clearly and openly state that the use of a WDH when towing a caravan is not required and I have noticed that you have gone further at times suggesting that the use of such equipment would be dangerous in your opinion.
It is a brave man that may be quoting information which may be in fact incorrect and that the recommendation of not using approved equipment that has been designed and marketed to achieve a certain result, might be bordering on litigious.
I am not here arguing that you are in fact correct or incorrect, I dont know and will leave it to others.
The forum admin is very liberal when it comes to some comments within topics on here. I wonder if their concern would ever be related to the possibility of incorrect and, or, dangerous advice being offered.
I wonder also could the forum become liable for permitting comments, if they were deemed to be dangerous or litigious in a court of law.
Your reference to others in previous topics at times has been quite demeaning to those members.
Maybe if you were to become a recognised instructor or to gain some cred, you might follow a new tactic to get your view across.
Here is a small tale which may help you when trying to help others.
An old man meets a young man who asks:
Do you remember me?
And the old man says no. Then the young man tells him he was his student, And the teacher asks:
What do you do, what do you do in life?
The young man answers:
Well, I became a teacher.
ah, how good, like me? Asks the old man.
Well, yes. In fact, I became a teacher because you inspired me to be like you.
The old man, curious, asks the young man at what time he decided to become a teacher. And the young man tells him the following story:
One day, a friend of mine, also a student, came in with a nice new watch, and I decided I wanted it and I stole it, I took it out of his pocket.
Shortly after, my friend noticed the flight and immediately complained to our teacher, who was you. Then you went to the class:
This students watch was stolen during classes today. Whoever stole it, please return it.
I didnt give it back because I didnt want to. Then you closed the door and told us all to get up and you were going to search our pockets one by one until the watch was found. But you told us to close our eyes, because you would only look for his watch if we all had our eyes closed.
So we did, and you went from pocket to pocket, and when you went through my pocket, you found the watch and took it. You kept searching everyones pockets, and when you were done you said
open your eyes. We have the watch.
You didnt tell me and you never mentioned the episode. You never said who stole the watch either. That day you saved my dignity forever. It was the most shameful day of my life.
But this is also the day my dignity was saved and I decided not to become a thief, a bad person, etc. You never said anything, nor even scold me or took me aside to give me a moral lesson, I received your message clearly.
And thanks to you, I understood what a real educator needs to do. Do you remember this episode, professor?
And the professor answers:
I remember the situation, the stolen watch, which I was looking for in everyones pocket, but I didnt remember you, because I also closed my eyes while looking.
This is the essence of teaching:
If to correct you must humiliate; you dont know how to teach.
-- Edited by RickJ on Sunday 18th of December 2022 03:49:39 PM
New paragraph.
Seems ok so far.
But I have my iPad in a cover with an incorporated keyboard.
This is my fourth iPad and I have never experienced what Yobar describes.
Maybe Yobar needed to trade in his trusty old iPad.
That is not the iPads normal behavior.
It might look good with paragraphs on the screen but when you push post, it comes out with no paragraphs. It is something weird with this particular forum.
If i enter the forum into the full site and then into my section, the paragraphs that I put in the reply stay there when I post the reply.
New subject posts are composed in a markup editorwheere the composer can add styling to the text whereas the replies are composed in a text box where line breaks are converted to html paragraphs tags.
But it has tabs to switch between Visual and HTML.
I tried and entered several lines of test and then switched to HTMP and all the lines are enclosed within p tags.
Looked at an old new subject post and there were p tags where expected.
Can't understand it.