Because I usually travel more slowly than most motorists, in the car and van by choice, and in the Roadtrain simply because it's hard to maintain 100km/hr with 130 ton on board, I regularly am overtaken by other vehicles.
In days gone by we were taught to hold the steering wheel with both hands, in the "10 to 2" position, but there seems to be a growing trend, unsafe in my opinion, for drivers to hold the steering wheel with hands in the "8 and 4" (20 past 8, or 20 to 4) position, palms upwards on the outside of the wheel.
This surely means that a driver has severely limited ability to turn the steering without "shuffling" their hands around the wheel's perimeter? Some might say that it takes only a second or so to move their hands to a position where the steering wheel can be easily turned, but at 100km/hr this means that the vehicle would have travelled nearly 28 metres before any effective steering input was possible. Driver could quite easily wake-up dead!
A few months ago, in a major city, I was driving my car in the left lane at 60km/hr in a 60km/hr zone when I was overtaken by a Driving School car. The "driver" was a young man, while the instructor (co-pilot?) was a middle aged man, and as well as exceeding the speed limit this "driver" had his hands at "8 and 4 on the steering wheel, so had little effective control of the car.
At the next traffic light I pulled alongside the car and questioned the instructor about the position on the steering wheel of the "driver's" hands. Imagine my disbelief when the instructor proudly announced that "This is the new way we teach drivers because it's found to be safer".
In both my car and the Roadtrain I drive mostly with only one hand on the steering wheel, usually left hand at the "10 o'clock" position and the other arm on the window ledge, or right hand at "2 o'clock" with other arm on the beer fridge between the seats. In either case I have immediate ability to quickly turn the wheel if required. Cheers.
P.S One of the best-ever speedway drivers was a chap named "Sleepy" Tripp.(1980s) He always drive with only one hand on the steering wheel.
Possum3 said
01:10 PM Dec 20, 2022
"Ten to Two" - Is how we were taught - Is also how I taught as a 4WD Instructor. Also placing thumbs under the steering wheel (encircling the grip) is not approved, particularly in 4WD, as thumbs can be broken if/when steering is jerked by hitting rock or pothole.
Driving with one hand and turning wheel with heel of palm (quite doable in modern vehicles with power assisted steering) would be an immediate fail.
People in trucks should not be looking down into vehicles (and up ladies skirts).
Edit spelling and 10 X 2 Either uncle Al or just thumb in bum and mind in neutral.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Tuesday 20th of December 2022 01:27:56 PM
Wannabe nomad said
01:23 PM Dec 20, 2022
This is what I learned when I did a 4x4 wheel driving course last year, and I bow to my instructors years of knowledge/experience.
10 & 2 (was the recommended one)
9 & 3
9 & 2
But whatever way you choose always have both hands on the wheel as much as possible to give yourself more control in the event of the unexpected. AND keep your thumbs on the outside of the steering wheel because if you get a blow out or hit a pot hole and your thumbs are on the inside you may well be to busy nursing damaged hands to be able to control your vehicle. This is super important if going off road, because a minor deviation in the road surface could cause your thumbs to get hurt quite badly.
Wannabe nomad said
01:25 PM Dec 20, 2022
You beat me to it possum
Possum3 said
01:31 PM Dec 20, 2022
Wannabe nomad wrote:
You beat me to it possum
But you got it right first time;
I was lucky enough to be taught pursuit and defensive by some of the best; They had some pretty good "Solo 1" riders as well.
Bobdown said
03:29 PM Dec 20, 2022
I thought all truckies had a 'joint' in one hand and a stubby in the other.......
vince56 said
03:35 PM Dec 20, 2022
9 and 3 if going quick, ie racing, 10 and 2 on the highway thumbs in, 4x4 as Possum pointed out, thumbs definitely outside of the wheel.
Bicyclecamper said
04:21 PM Dec 20, 2022
10 to 2 for me trained as an ECN T109 driver(Army), and as an Instructor, in same said license class, was always the way to use the steering wheel.
yobarr said
04:22 PM Dec 20, 2022
Bobdown wrote:
I thought all truckies had a 'joint' in one hand and a stubby in the other.......
Only when on dirt roads, Bob, or at least 50km from towns. Important to obey other laws so there is less likelihood of being stopped. Cheers
jontee said
04:40 PM Dec 20, 2022
G`day ,
Mate is a driving instructor , 9 : 3 is the preferred position now because it is deemed safer when an air bag in steering wheel deploys
.
Cheers ,
Jontee
Long Weekend said
05:41 PM Dec 20, 2022
I seem to remember hearing fairly recently that the switch from the approved 10 to 2 to the 20 to 4 position on the steering wheel was because of the introduction of air bags. That would account for all old time drivers sticking to 10 to 2 while younger ones are using the 20 to 4 position.
(iontee - you got in just as I started to type. A quarter to three would probably be better than twenty to four.)
Murray
Possum3 said
06:38 PM Dec 20, 2022
The deployment of steering wheel airbag/s should only occur after a frontal impact in which case the elevated hands 10:10 position would assist in preventing facial fractures by dampening some of the airbag velocity.
The hands being in 3:3 or 8:4 may twist arms back and injure the clavicle/s.
The clavicle or collarbone is a long bone that serves as a strut between the shoulder blade and the sternum or breastbone.
There are two clavicles, one on the left and one on the right. The clavicle is the only long bone in the body that lies horizontally. Together with the shoulder blade it makes up the shoulder girdle.
10:2 is still the correct position for hands.
Ivan 01 said
07:24 PM Dec 20, 2022
jontee wrote:
G`day , Mate is a driving instructor , 9 : 3 is the preferred position now because it is deemed safer when an air bag in steering wheel deploys . Cheers , Jontee
Yes, this is now the current suggestion.
In the past it was 10 to 2 but the new 9 to 3 apparently is being recommended now due to motor vehicle design with many controls on the steering wheel
at the outer area of the spoke and as well as the air bag statement.
The other argument is wether we should push the steering wheel or pull the steering wheel when turning.
One handed steering is cool, apparently, as are knobs on steering wheels. The biggest worry is which hand do you have on the *knob*
Whenarewethere said
07:28 PM Dec 20, 2022
Usually about 9 & 3 to press all the buttons on the steering wheel with thumbs, to launch nukes, that sort of stuff!
Aus-Kiwi said
09:09 PM Dec 20, 2022
Left hand at 11 ! Right arm resting on arm rest . Have to be comfortable !! Swap when changing gears !!
gold dandelion said
11:04 PM Dec 20, 2022
No one has even bothered to mention the distance from the steering wheel, just as important and taught in all high pursuit training
Possum3 said
08:26 AM Dec 21, 2022
Steering Knobs (Spinners) are illegal in all States of Australia unless fitted and approved as a Disability Control and vehicle registered with said modification.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Wednesday 21st of December 2022 10:18:08 AM
Possum3 said
08:36 AM Dec 21, 2022
Whenarewethere wrote:
Usually about 9 & 3 to press all the buttons on the steering wheel with thumbs, to launch nukes, that sort of stuff!
Steering Wheels with audio controls, etc - controls are fitted at 9:3 - the area between 10:11:12:1:2 & 8:7:6:5:4 remains clear. To grip steering wheel at 9:3 your palm of hand is likely to foul audio controls.
Whenarewethere said
08:45 AM Dec 21, 2022
gold dandelion wrote:
No one has even bothered to mention the distance from the steering wheel, just as important and taught in all high pursuit training
The handbook for my car notes safe distance from steering wheel airbag.
I have noticed quite a few drivers who take this to the extreme & they have their the driver's seat in a nanometre of horizontal position. I am surprised that they can actually see over the dashboard.
A bit like a neighbour who is vertically challenged & has the seat more upright than the Pope with a quoir full on school boys after hours & the still has issues seeing the real situation!
Roy E said
11:16 AM Dec 21, 2022
When I lived in Dubai, I occasionally saw Arab youths driving large 4WDs, steering with their feet with driver's seat a long way back, seat back partly reclined, a phone in one hand and a water bottle in the other.
They didn't seem to care at all where their feet were placed on the steering wheel.
Cheers,
Roy.
Whenarewethere said
11:24 AM Dec 21, 2022
Forget to mention the arm rests left & right, & the power steering when hitting potholes. Not really aware of potholes.
Aus-Kiwi said
12:30 PM Dec 21, 2022
What are pot holes ? Ahahaha
Gundog said
02:45 PM Dec 21, 2022
You could use a suicide knob.
86GTS said
03:32 PM Dec 21, 2022
Hylife said
04:37 PM Dec 22, 2022
The modern steering wheel is designed for 20 to 4 and to hook in the index finger (and perhaps the thumb) around the radial.
Better control when your arms can use your torso to lessen movement.
Watch a vid on high performance vehicles that don't have a full circle wheel, the hand holds are 20 to 4.
Oh, and the old hand over hand for tight turns with a wheel is no longer taught, just palms now.
Whenarewethere said
05:37 PM Dec 22, 2022
I had my own car & a company car at the same time.
One had a steering wheel a metre diameter with 4 turns lock to lock.
The other 2.7 lock to lock turned with little finger.
If I hadn't driven my car for some time I forget the effort it took. My arm muscles have disappeared due to power steering.
iana said
06:38 PM Dec 22, 2022
The proper way to work the steering wheel, if you watch Mark Webber driving his cars, is to put the palm of your right hand at about 2 0clock and keep the left hand on the gear stick. With the pressure of the ball of your hand on the wheel, you can easily turn the wheel in any direction. (Yeah, I know, but he's meant to lead by example)
yobarr said
09:23 PM Dec 22, 2022
Hylife wrote:
The modern steering wheel is designed for 20 to 4 and to hook in the index finger (and perhaps the thumb) around the radial.
Better control when your arms can use your torso to lessen movement.
Watch a vid on high performance vehicles that don't have a full circle wheel, the hand holds are 20 to 4.
Oh, and the old hand over hand for tight turns with a wheel is no longer taught, just palms now.
Would be most interesting to learn where you sourced this "information". We are not discussing high performance cars, such as F1 models, where the steering is much more direct, and there never is a need to turn the wheel anywhere near a full turn. We are discussing everyday cars, 4wds and tow vehicles etc that we all drive, and without "shuffling" your hands it is physically impossible to turn a steering wheel more than a few degrees if you have your hands at 20 to 4, not to mention the extended time that this takes. Try it, and see how long it takes you to turn the wheel 360 degrees by "shuffling" your hands on the wheel. Ian clearly understands the wisdom of the "10 and 2" position, where it is easy to swing the wheel in either direction, even with only one hand on the wheel. Just watch Sleepy Tripp in action. Although I haven't studied racing drivers' actions I would be most surprised, even astounded, to see any one of them holding the steering wheel at 20 to 4. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 22nd of December 2022 10:59:33 PM
Greg 1 said
02:49 AM Dec 23, 2022
As someone who has been a driving instructor, taught advanced driving and raced cars as a hobby including taking instruction from some very experienced ex touring car drivers, you never ever drive with your hands at 20 to 4.
10 to 2 or 9 and 3 are the two correct positions to maintain proper control of the car. Anyone teaching otherwise isn't a drivers fundamental.
In a race car the 9 and 3 position is preferred or just slightly above.
It is frowned upon by good racing driver instructors to drive one handed and very few do. Change gear, hand back on wheel until next gear change. At high corner speeds and quick racks you need both hands on the wheel to muscle the car around the corner.
Whilst most people will never drive at the speeds reached on a race track, the fundamental things that make for good car control on the track, translate straight across to driving our road cars. I would like to see more people take the opportunity to take some advanced instruction on a race track because I believe it makes for better drivers, both in skill and attitude.
Possum3 said
08:18 AM Dec 23, 2022
Greg 1 wrote:
I would like to see more people take the opportunity to take some advanced instruction on a racetrack because I believe it makes for better drivers, both in skill and attitude.
It would be more practical to take an advanced driving course period. Most GN readers will never drive Rally Sport (Rallye) nor Formula 1 - But Defensive Driving and Vehicle Control may save someone's life.
It is a pity that the average Australian Male believes themselves to be above the average with regard to their capabilities - as one that has witnessed the aftermath of many of these "better than average drivers" tragedies that occur on our roads daily, all I can say is they are delusional to the extreme.
Because I usually travel more slowly than most motorists, in the car and van by choice, and in the Roadtrain simply because it's hard to maintain 100km/hr with 130 ton on board, I regularly am overtaken by other vehicles.
In days gone by we were taught to hold the steering wheel with both hands, in the "10 to 2" position, but there seems to be a growing trend, unsafe in my opinion, for drivers to hold the steering wheel with hands in the "8 and 4" (20 past 8, or 20 to 4) position, palms upwards on the outside of the wheel.
This surely means that a driver has severely limited ability to turn the steering without "shuffling" their hands around the wheel's perimeter? Some might say that it takes only a second or so to move their hands to a position where the steering wheel can be easily turned, but at 100km/hr this means that the vehicle would have travelled nearly 28 metres before any effective steering input was possible. Driver could quite easily wake-up dead!
A few months ago, in a major city, I was driving my car in the left lane at 60km/hr in a 60km/hr zone when I was overtaken by a Driving School car. The "driver" was a young man, while the instructor (co-pilot?) was a middle aged man, and as well as exceeding the speed limit this "driver" had his hands at "8 and 4 on the steering wheel, so had little effective control of the car.
At the next traffic light I pulled alongside the car and questioned the instructor about the position on the steering wheel of the "driver's" hands. Imagine my disbelief when the instructor proudly announced that "This is the new way we teach drivers because it's found to be safer".
In both my car and the Roadtrain I drive mostly with only one hand on the steering wheel, usually left hand at the "10 o'clock" position and the other arm on the window ledge, or right hand at "2 o'clock" with other arm on the beer fridge between the seats. In either case I have immediate ability to quickly turn the wheel if required. Cheers.
P.S One of the best-ever speedway drivers was a chap named "Sleepy" Tripp.(1980s) He always drive with only one hand on the steering wheel.
"Ten to Two" - Is how we were taught - Is also how I taught as a 4WD Instructor. Also placing thumbs under the steering wheel (encircling the grip) is not approved, particularly in 4WD, as thumbs can be broken if/when steering is jerked by hitting rock or pothole.
Driving with one hand and turning wheel with heel of palm (quite doable in modern vehicles with power assisted steering) would be an immediate fail.
Edit again 10 X 2.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
People in trucks should not be looking down into vehicles (and up ladies skirts).
Edit spelling and 10 X 2 Either uncle Al or just thumb in bum and mind in neutral.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Tuesday 20th of December 2022 01:27:56 PM
10 & 2 (was the recommended one)
9 & 3
9 & 2
But whatever way you choose always have both hands on the wheel as much as possible to give yourself more control in the event of the unexpected. AND keep your thumbs on the outside of the steering wheel because if you get a blow out or hit a pot hole and your thumbs are on the inside you may well be to busy nursing damaged hands to be able to control your vehicle. This is super important if going off road, because a minor deviation in the road surface could cause your thumbs to get hurt quite badly.
You beat me to it possum
But you got it right first time;
I was lucky enough to be taught pursuit and defensive by some of the best; They had some pretty good "Solo 1" riders as well.
I thought all truckies had a 'joint' in one hand and a stubby in the other.......
Only when on dirt roads, Bob, or at least 50km from towns. Important to obey other laws so there is less likelihood of being stopped. Cheers
Mate is a driving instructor , 9 : 3 is the preferred position now because it is deemed safer when an air bag in steering wheel deploys
.
Cheers ,
Jontee
(iontee - you got in just as I started to type. A quarter to three would probably be better than twenty to four.)
Murray
The hands being in 3:3 or 8:4 may twist arms back and injure the clavicle/s.
The clavicle or collarbone is a long bone that serves as a strut between the shoulder blade and the sternum or breastbone.
There are two clavicles, one on the left and one on the right. The clavicle is the only long bone in the body that lies horizontally. Together with the shoulder blade it makes up the shoulder girdle.
10:2 is still the correct position for hands.
Yes, this is now the current suggestion.
In the past it was 10 to 2 but the new 9 to 3 apparently is being recommended now due to motor vehicle design with many controls on the steering wheel
at the outer area of the spoke and as well as the air bag statement.
The other argument is wether we should push the steering wheel or pull the steering wheel when turning.
One handed steering is cool, apparently, as are knobs on steering wheels. The biggest worry is which hand do you have on the *knob*
Usually about 9 & 3 to press all the buttons on the steering wheel with thumbs, to launch nukes, that sort of stuff!
Steering Knobs (Spinners) are illegal in all States of Australia unless fitted and approved as a Disability Control and vehicle registered with said modification.
See Vehicle Standard, ADR 10/02 - Steering Column - 2008 Sect 3-2-1 & 7-1.
Edit Link added. Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 10/02 Steering Column) 2008 (legislation.gov.au)
-- Edited by Possum3 on Wednesday 21st of December 2022 10:18:08 AM
Steering Wheels with audio controls, etc - controls are fitted at 9:3 - the area between 10:11:12:1:2 & 8:7:6:5:4 remains clear. To grip steering wheel at 9:3 your palm of hand is likely to foul audio controls.
The handbook for my car notes safe distance from steering wheel airbag.
I have noticed quite a few drivers who take this to the extreme & they have their the driver's seat in a nanometre of horizontal position. I am surprised that they can actually see over the dashboard.
A bit like a neighbour who is vertically challenged & has the seat more upright than the Pope with a quoir full on school boys after hours & the still has issues seeing the real situation!
They didn't seem to care at all where their feet were placed on the steering wheel.
Cheers,
Roy.
Forget to mention the arm rests left & right, & the power steering when hitting potholes. Not really aware of potholes.
The modern steering wheel is designed for 20 to 4 and to hook in the index finger (and perhaps the thumb) around the radial.
Better control when your arms can use your torso to lessen movement.
Watch a vid on high performance vehicles that don't have a full circle wheel, the hand holds are 20 to 4.
Oh, and the old hand over hand for tight turns with a wheel is no longer taught, just palms now.
I had my own car & a company car at the same time.
One had a steering wheel a metre diameter with 4 turns lock to lock.
The other 2.7 lock to lock turned with little finger.
If I hadn't driven my car for some time I forget the effort it took. My arm muscles have disappeared due to power steering.
The proper way to work the steering wheel, if you watch Mark Webber driving his cars, is to put the palm of your right hand at about 2 0clock and keep the left hand on the gear stick. With the pressure of the ball of your hand on the wheel, you can easily turn the wheel in any direction. (Yeah, I know, but he's meant to lead by example)
Would be most interesting to learn where you sourced this "information". We are not discussing high performance cars, such as F1 models, where the steering is much more direct, and there never is a need to turn the wheel anywhere near a full turn. We are discussing everyday cars, 4wds and tow vehicles etc that we all drive, and without "shuffling" your hands it is physically impossible to turn a steering wheel more than a few degrees if you have your hands at 20 to 4, not to mention the extended time that this takes. Try it, and see how long it takes you to turn the wheel 360 degrees by "shuffling" your hands on the wheel. Ian clearly understands the wisdom of the "10 and 2" position, where it is easy to swing the wheel in either direction, even with only one hand on the wheel. Just watch Sleepy Tripp in action. Although I haven't studied racing drivers' actions I would be most surprised, even astounded, to see any one of them holding the steering wheel at 20 to 4. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 22nd of December 2022 10:59:33 PM
It would be more practical to take an advanced driving course period. Most GN readers will never drive Rally Sport (Rallye) nor Formula 1 - But Defensive Driving and Vehicle Control may save someone's life.
It is a pity that the average Australian Male believes themselves to be above the average with regard to their capabilities - as one that has witnessed the aftermath of many of these "better than average drivers" tragedies that occur on our roads daily, all I can say is they are delusional to the extreme.