I have seen lots info about this over the years but wanted an update with new rules for different states.
My son in law has a 2022 Prado and a van which on paper everything looks ok until he starts loading car and van.
He had a mobile weighing station come to him only to be told was non-compliant and the only way to really fix his problems was a GVM upgrade to the Prado.
My understanding is that GVM upgrades will not increase the CVM (car+load+van+load) over the manufacters published CVM figures.
He states the weihing dude said that the upgade is aso additive to mamufacture published data and is applicable to ALL Sates and Territory rules and if carry certicate from the home state (nsw) transport authourity, all will be honky dory anywhere in Oz
So all this legit?
Also another question not currently involving soninlaw - if my van is loaded to the hilt including full water, gas tanks etc and sits at 3500kgs to match the ATM plate of also 3500kgs and assuming this now gives a max tow ball weight of 350kgs, does this mean you can increase the van ATM buy 350kgs also.This sounds very dodgy to me
Thanks for your thoughts
Cheers
Greg 1 said
04:15 PM Jul 6, 2023
That depends on the State your son is in as different States have different rules but for starters.
A GVM upgrade does not increase your GCM (total of van and tow vehicle Max weight.) It only increases the carrying capacity of the actual tow vehicle but may not solve the issue as the car is likely limited by either it's GCM, towball weight or rear axle capacity.
WA does not allow GCM upgrades only GVM. I think Queensland maybe the only State allowing GCM upgrades. Be aware if your vehicle is garaged in another State, a Queensland upgrade won't count.
In answer to your other question, no. If you are pulled up and weighed, and the van is weighed separately, then it can only weigh what is it's plated ATM.
Personally I believe you are already playing with fire unless you are towing with a truck of some sort with a greater tow capacity than 3500kgs.
When you do the sums and check rear axle capacity, the reality is that pretty much nothing that the manufacturers rate at 3500kgs can actually tow that in any practical sense and remain legal.
I would be taking a long hard look at reducing the payload unless you have a vehicle such as a light truck, that is rated much higher.
Are We Lost said
06:57 PM Jul 6, 2023
The Prado GCM (the maximum combined weight) is 5990kg. Depending on model, the kerb weight is about 2300kg. So 2300 + 3500 = 5800 which is impractical. That only leaves 190kg for driver and everything else. So even on paper it does not look good. But the goal should be for the tow vehicle to be heavier than the van ... a popular guideline ... not a rule. Such a large disparity the other way makes it well into unsafe.
And that is before looking at the rear axle load on the Prado. A towball load of 350kg puts around 500kg load on the rear axle due to the leverage effect. I don't know what the Prado rating is but my guess that would make it over the rear axle limit.
There is no way to get a Prado to safely tow a 3500kg van. Load the Prado with passengers and average stuff and it probably weighs around 2600-2800kg. You then need to add the towball weight and it still has to fit within the GVM of 2990kg. And again, the tow vehicle should weigh more than the van. So the van needs to be less than 3000kg.
To answer your question on ATM in the last paragraph. No is the simple answer. The ATM is the maximum the van can weigh when standing on its jockey wheel. ATM never changes. When connected to the tow vehicle, part of the weight is supported by the tow vehicle (350kg in your example). The remainder (3150kg) is the load that is transmitted to the ground by the wheels. This also has a rating ... the GTM, or Gross Towing Mass. It will always be less than the ATM.
Note that the weight added onto the towball gets included in the weight of the tow vehicle, and that combined weight must not exceed the GVM (the maximum weight of the tow vehicle weight on the wheels).
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 6th of July 2023 07:12:28 PM
yobarr said
10:48 AM Jul 7, 2023
Are We Lost wrote:
The Prado GCM (the maximum combined weight) is 5990kg. Depending on model, the kerb weight is about 2300kg. So 2300 + 3500 = 5800 which is impractical. That only leaves 190kg for driver and everything else. So even on paper it does not look good. But the goal should be for the tow vehicle to be heavier than the van . a popular guideline ... not a rule. Such a large disparity the other way makes it well into unsafe.
And that is before looking at the rear axle load on the Prado. A towball load of 350kg puts around 500kg load on the rear axle due to the leverage effect. I don't know what the Prado rating is but my guess that would make it over the rear axle limit.
There is no way to get a Prado to safely tow a 3500kg van. Load the Prado with passengers and average stuff and it probably weighs around 2600-2800kg. You then need to add the towball weight and it still has to fit within the GVM of 2990kg. And again, the tow vehicle should weigh more than the van. So the van needs to be less than 3000kg.
To answer your question on ATM in the last paragraph. No is the simple answer. The ATM is the maximum the van can weigh when standing on its jockey wheel. ATM never changes. When connected to the tow vehicle, part of the weight is supported by the tow vehicle (350kg in your example). The remainder (3150kg) is the load that is transmitted to the ground by the wheels. This also has a rating ... the GTM, or Gross Towing Mass. It will always be less than the ATM.
Note that the weight added onto the towball gets included in the weight of the tow vehicle, and that combined weight must not exceed the GVM (the maximum weight of the tow vehicle weight on the wheels).
Some good points here, Stephen, particularly the rear axle load. Don't have my records with me, but I'm guessing 1850kg TOPS.
Later today I will again post on this, but I wonder if tge OP is perhaps referring to 2 different vehicles? He initially discusses his son-in-law's Prado and later mentions his own van, which appears to have 3500kg ATM?
If the son-in-law is planning to tow a 3500kg PIG trailer with a Prado he's living in LaLa Land. Later. Cheers
Fridge65 said
11:14 AM Jul 7, 2023
Thanks for the comments.
These are 2 different vehicles. The first is about the Prado and a van and was about legalites of AGM upgrades, views of the differt states etc and i guess the bull**** of upgrade companies that everything is agreed by all the states and be no problem in any of them. A $6.5k bill is a lot too pay if it isn't recognised australia wide OR the fact toyota will most likely reject any warranty claims related iny way to suspension.
The second qestion was a generic question about my boat trailer (but could be about any traller/van). The sheer number of people who ask why i worry about3.5t when all i was "really" towing was 3.5 -0.35=3.15T. It could equally apply to a atm of 2.5t becoming ""really" 2.25T. This was a concept i could not logically follow.
(BTW, I would never consider a Prado to tow 3.5T)
Thanks again
yobarr said
12:09 PM Jul 7, 2023
Fridge65 wrote:
Thanks for the comments.
These are 2 different vehicles. The first is about the Prado and a van and was about legalites of AGM upgrades, views of the differt states etc and i guess the bull**** of upgrade companies that everything is agreed by all the states and be no problem in any of them. A $6.5k bill is a lot too pay if it isn't recognised australia wide OR the fact toyota will most likely reject any warranty claims related iny way to suspension.
The second qestion was a generic question about my boat trailer (but could be about any traller/van). The sheer number of people who ask why i worry about3.5t when all i was "really" towing was 3.5 -0.35=3.15T. It could equally apply to a atm of 2.5t becoming ""really" 2.25T. This was a concept i could not logically follow.
(BTW, I would never consider a Prado to tow 3.5T)
Thanks again
What is the ATM of son-in-law's van? This is important to know before we go much further. My understanding is that although states have different rules regarding upgrades, if your vehicle is legal in your state of registration you are legal anywhere you travel.
Greg will no doubt know about this? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 7th of July 2023 12:11:45 PM
yobarr said
08:20 PM Jul 7, 2023
Fridge65 wrote:
Hi all,
I have seen lots info about this over the years but wanted an update with new rules for different states.
My son in law has a 2022 Prado and a van which on paper everything looks ok until he starts loading car and van.
He had a mobile weighing station come to him only to be told was non-compliant and the only way to really fix his problems was a GVM upgrade to the Prado.
My understanding is that GVM upgrades will not increase the CVM (car+load+van+load) over the manufacters published CVM figures.
He states the weihing dude said that the upgade is aso additive to mamufacture published data and is applicable to ALL Sates and Territory rules and if carry certicate from the home state (nsw) transport authourity, all will be honky dory anywhere in Oz
So all this legit?
Also another question not currently involving soninlaw - if my van is loaded to the hilt including full water, gas tanks etc and sits at 3500kgs to match the ATM plate of also 3500kgs and assuming this now gives a max tow ball weight of 350kgs, does this mean you can increase the van ATM buy 350kgs also.This sounds very dodgy to me
Thanks for your thoughts
Cheers
Unfortunately, because the car already is registered, you cannot now increase the GCM. Had research been done, and an upgrade been done before initial registration, it would have been possible to increase GVM to 3500kg and GCM to 6500Kg. The good news is that you still can upgrade to 3500kg GVM, although you have NO chance of ever reaching that figure when towing. Current rear axle rating is only 1850kg but upgraded rear axle is 2050kg. Front axle rating increases to 1450Kg, which is a good figure, although unreachable when towing.
The Prado has tow capacity of 3000kg, so with the generally accepted 10% towball weight, you would have a van with 2700kg on its wheels behind a car with potentially up to 3350kg on its wheels. This would mean that the car would be more than 20% heavier than the van, and very safe in spite of the Prados short wheel base.
This should help you, but please feel free to ask more questions if you wish. Your other question has been well answered by Greg and Stephen. Cheers
yobarr said
10:03 PM Jul 7, 2023
Are We Lost wrote:
T To answer your question on ATM in the last paragraph. No is the simple answer. The ATM is the maximum the van can weigh when standing on its jockey wheel. ATM never changes. When connected to the tow vehicle, part of the weight is supported by the tow vehicle (350kg in your example). The remainder (3150kg) is the load that is transmitted to the ground by the wheels. This also has a rating ... the GTM, or Gross Towing Mass. It will always be less than the ATM.
Hi Stephen. For your reference please see figures on photo below which clearly show a GTM waaay above ATM rating.
That van was subsequently upgraded to 3180kg ATM, and later to 3500kg ATM, with a 3200kg axle rating. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 7th of July 2023 11:43:22 PM
Hi Stephen. For your reference please see figures on photo below which clearly show a GTM waaay above ATM rating.
No. It's the The Axle Group Rating (AGR) that is way above the ATM (as well as GTM). Nothing wrong with that. A little unusual for such a large difference but nothing wrong. Look again. ATM 2180, GTM 1960, AGR 2800. Remember the AGR is only one of the elements that determine the GTM, which then allows the ATM to be determined.
For example the axle group could be removed from that van and fitted to my lightweight box trailer. The AGR will still be the same 2800, but the lightweight chassis and coupling amongst other things would still limit the GTM and ATM.
This same situation came up in my discussion with the Technical Enquiries Officer, Regulatory Operations at Transport for NSW. As part of that discussion, both verbal and written he wrote:
The axle group rating is its maximum load carrying capability as specified by its manufacturer ( not required to be on a trailer manufacturers plate ). The axle group rating has no relation to a trailers Gross Trailer Mass other than needing to be equal to or higher than the Gross Trailer Mass.
A four tonne rated axle group may be able to be fitted to a 1 tonne trailer, However the maximum Gross and Aggregate Trailer Mass will be determined by other components such as the structural integrity of the trailers body/chassis, brake type, the sum of the load rating of tyres fitted, safety chain and coupling load rating.
I am sure you have seen that paste before because I posted it previously in threads you also contributed.
In the example you posted the photo, it's quite possible that an engineer may approve an update to 2800kg GTM, but absolutely no such guarantee. The chassis may be the limiting factor.
EDIT: I see you responded when I was making some tweaks, so this does not quite match what is in your response. Good to see we are in agreement. I too slipped up a bit in my earlier post by not realising there were two different scenarios. Apologies to Fridge65.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 7th of July 2023 10:51:14 PM
yobarr said
10:43 PM Jul 7, 2023
Are We Lost wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Hi Stephen. For your reference please see figures on photo below which clearly show a GTM waaay above ATM rating.
No. It's the The Axle Group Rating (AGR) that is way above the ATM (as well as GTM). Nothing wrong with that. A little unusual but nothing wrong. Look again. ATM 2180, GTM 1960, AGR 2800. Remember the AGR is only one of the elements that determine the GTM, which then allows the ATM to be determined.
For example the axle group could be removed from that van and fitted to my lightweight box trailer. The AGR will still be the same 2800, but the tiny chassis and other things would still limit the GTM and ATM.
This same situation came up in my discussion with the Technical Enquiries Officer, Regulatory Operations at Transport for NSW. As part of that discussion, both verbal and written he wrote:
The axle group rating is its maximum load carrying capability as specified by its manufacturer ( not required to be on a trailer manufacturers plate ). The axle group rating has no relation to a trailers Gross Trailer Mass other than needing to be equal to or higher than the Gross Trailer Mass.
A four tonne rated axle group may be able to be fitted to a 1 tonne trailer, However the maximum Gross and Aggregate Trailer Mass will be determined by other components such as the structural integrity of the trailers body/chassis, brake type, the sum of the load rating of tyres fitted, safety chain and coupling load rating.
I am sure you have seen this before because I posted it previously in threads you also contributed.
You are, of course, quite right. Not concentrating as trying to do too many things at once! Cheers
Greg 1 said
11:17 PM Jul 7, 2023
With regards the upgrades.
GVM upgrades are usually approved in most States.
GCM upgrades to my knowledge are only approved in Queensland and I believe with conditions attached.
You cannot have a GCM upgrade done in Queensland and then reticence in another State as the upgrade then becomes invalid.
If your vehicle is registered in Queensland and is just travelling through another State, then in most cases the upgrade will be recognised during the length of your journey provided you are not taking up long term residency in the State that does not approve GCM upgrades. You usually get 3 months before you are supposed to reregister in the State of residency.
Cuppa said
10:59 AM Jul 8, 2023
Greg 1 wrote:
With regards the upgrades. GVM upgrades are usually approved in most States.
That may depend upon when you get the GVM upgrade done.
Different rules apply to pre first registration & post first registration, at least that was the case on my vehicle, a 2006 model upgraded from a GVM of 3400kg to 3900kg in 2013 in Victoria. Whilst legal to drive it in all states if Australia it can only be sold registered with the GVM upgrade recognised in Victoria. If it were sold interstate the new state may or may not accept the upgrade, but would first have to get it re-'engineered'.Mine was a kit (Lovells) upgrade, but because the kit only had approval for 3 litre Patrols & mine is a 4.2, I had to get additional VASS engineer approval on top of the cost of the kit. The approval was state based.
Hi all,
I have seen lots info about this over the years but wanted an update with new rules for different states.
My son in law has a 2022 Prado and a van which on paper everything looks ok until he starts loading car and van.
He had a mobile weighing station come to him only to be told was non-compliant and the only way to really fix his problems was a GVM upgrade to the Prado.
My understanding is that GVM upgrades will not increase the CVM (car+load+van+load) over the manufacters published CVM figures.
He states the weihing dude said that the upgade is aso additive to mamufacture published data and is applicable to ALL Sates and Territory rules and if carry certicate from the home state (nsw) transport authourity, all will be honky dory anywhere in Oz
So all this legit?
Also another question not currently involving soninlaw - if my van is loaded to the hilt including full water, gas tanks etc and sits at 3500kgs to match the ATM plate of also 3500kgs and assuming this now gives a max tow ball weight of 350kgs, does this mean you can increase the van ATM buy 350kgs also.This sounds very dodgy to me
Thanks for your thoughts
Cheers
The Prado GCM (the maximum combined weight) is 5990kg. Depending on model, the kerb weight is about 2300kg. So 2300 + 3500 = 5800 which is impractical. That only leaves 190kg for driver and everything else. So even on paper it does not look good. But the goal should be for the tow vehicle to be heavier than the van ... a popular guideline ... not a rule. Such a large disparity the other way makes it well into unsafe.
And that is before looking at the rear axle load on the Prado. A towball load of 350kg puts around 500kg load on the rear axle due to the leverage effect. I don't know what the Prado rating is but my guess that would make it over the rear axle limit.
There is no way to get a Prado to safely tow a 3500kg van. Load the Prado with passengers and average stuff and it probably weighs around 2600-2800kg. You then need to add the towball weight and it still has to fit within the GVM of 2990kg. And again, the tow vehicle should weigh more than the van. So the van needs to be less than 3000kg.
To answer your question on ATM in the last paragraph. No is the simple answer. The ATM is the maximum the van can weigh when standing on its jockey wheel. ATM never changes. When connected to the tow vehicle, part of the weight is supported by the tow vehicle (350kg in your example). The remainder (3150kg) is the load that is transmitted to the ground by the wheels. This also has a rating ... the GTM, or Gross Towing Mass. It will always be less than the ATM.
Note that the weight added onto the towball gets included in the weight of the tow vehicle, and that combined weight must not exceed the GVM (the maximum weight of the tow vehicle weight on the wheels).
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 6th of July 2023 07:12:28 PM
Some good points here, Stephen, particularly the rear axle load. Don't have my records with me, but I'm guessing 1850kg TOPS.
Later today I will again post on this, but I wonder if tge OP is perhaps referring to 2 different vehicles? He initially discusses his son-in-law's Prado and later mentions his own van, which appears to have 3500kg ATM?
If the son-in-law is planning to tow a 3500kg PIG trailer with a Prado he's living in LaLa Land. Later. Cheers
These are 2 different vehicles. The first is about the Prado and a van and was about legalites of AGM upgrades, views of the differt states etc and i guess the bull**** of upgrade companies that everything is agreed by all the states and be no problem in any of them. A $6.5k bill is a lot too pay if it isn't recognised australia wide OR the fact toyota will most likely reject any warranty claims related iny way to suspension.
The second qestion was a generic question about my boat trailer (but could be about any traller/van). The sheer number of people who ask why i worry about3.5t when all i was "really" towing was 3.5 -0.35=3.15T. It could equally apply to a atm of 2.5t becoming ""really" 2.25T. This was a concept i could not logically follow.
(BTW, I would never consider a Prado to tow 3.5T)
Thanks again
What is the ATM of son-in-law's van? This is important to know before we go much further. My understanding is that although states have different rules regarding upgrades, if your vehicle is legal in your state of registration you are legal anywhere you travel.
Greg will no doubt know about this? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 7th of July 2023 12:11:45 PM
Unfortunately, because the car already is registered, you cannot now increase the GCM.
Had research been done, and an upgrade been done before initial registration, it would have been possible to increase GVM to 3500kg and GCM to 6500Kg.
The good news is that you still can upgrade to 3500kg GVM, although you have NO chance of ever reaching that figure when towing.
Current rear axle rating is only 1850kg but upgraded rear axle is 2050kg.
Front axle rating increases to 1450Kg, which is a good figure, although unreachable when towing.
The Prado has tow capacity of 3000kg, so with the generally accepted 10% towball weight, you would have a van with 2700kg on its wheels behind a car with potentially up to 3350kg on its wheels. This would mean that the car would be more than 20% heavier than the van, and very safe in spite of the Prados short wheel base.
This should help you, but please feel free to ask more questions if you wish.
Your other question has been well answered by Greg and Stephen. Cheers
Hi Stephen. For your reference please see figures on photo below which clearly show a GTM waaay above ATM rating.
That van was subsequently upgraded to 3180kg ATM, and later to 3500kg ATM, with a 3200kg axle rating. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 7th of July 2023 11:43:22 PM
No. It's the The Axle Group Rating (AGR) that is way above the ATM (as well as GTM). Nothing wrong with that. A little unusual for such a large difference but nothing wrong. Look again. ATM 2180, GTM 1960, AGR 2800. Remember the AGR is only one of the elements that determine the GTM, which then allows the ATM to be determined.
For example the axle group could be removed from that van and fitted to my lightweight box trailer. The AGR will still be the same 2800, but the lightweight chassis and coupling amongst other things would still limit the GTM and ATM.
This same situation came up in my discussion with the Technical Enquiries Officer, Regulatory Operations at Transport for NSW. As part of that discussion, both verbal and written he wrote:
The axle group rating is its maximum load carrying capability as specified by its manufacturer ( not required to be on a trailer manufacturers plate ). The axle group rating has no relation to a trailers Gross Trailer Mass other than needing to be equal to or higher than the Gross Trailer Mass.
A four tonne rated axle group may be able to be fitted to a 1 tonne trailer, However the maximum Gross and Aggregate Trailer Mass will be determined by other components such as the structural integrity of the trailers body/chassis, brake type, the sum of the load rating of tyres fitted, safety chain and coupling load rating.
I am sure you have seen that paste before because I posted it previously in threads you also contributed.
In the example you posted the photo, it's quite possible that an engineer may approve an update to 2800kg GTM, but absolutely no such guarantee. The chassis may be the limiting factor.
EDIT: I see you responded when I was making some tweaks, so this does not quite match what is in your response. Good to see we are in agreement. I too slipped up a bit in my earlier post by not realising there were two different scenarios. Apologies to Fridge65.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Friday 7th of July 2023 10:51:14 PM
You are, of course, quite right. Not concentrating as trying to do too many things at once! Cheers
That may depend upon when you get the GVM upgrade done.
Different rules apply to pre first registration & post first registration, at least that was the case on my vehicle, a 2006 model upgraded from a GVM of 3400kg to 3900kg in 2013 in Victoria. Whilst legal to drive it in all states if Australia it can only be sold registered with the GVM upgrade recognised in Victoria. If it were sold interstate the new state may or may not accept the upgrade, but would first have to get it re-'engineered'.Mine was a kit (Lovells) upgrade, but because the kit only had approval for 3 litre Patrols & mine is a 4.2, I had to get additional VASS engineer approval on top of the cost of the kit. The approval was state based.