I'm interested in how you would resolve this issue.
Just for putting face to it for an example the vehicle a LC200 fully loaded with 2 pax GVM is ok, F&R axle weights are within specs. The van is a Jayco 22ft laden for trip, ATM & GTM are ok TBW is 11%.
When the LC200 and Jayco are connected GCM is ok, but the steering appear to be light and has massive understeer.
yobarr said
06:08 PM Jan 23, 2024
Gundog wrote:
I'm interested in how you would resolve this issue.
Just for putting face to it for an example the vehicle a LC200 fully loaded with 2 pax GVM is ok, F&R axle weights are within specs. The van is a Jayco 22ft laden for trip, ATM & GTM are ok TBW is 11%.
When the LC200 and Jayco are connected GCM is ok, but the steering appear to be light and has massive understeer.
That's what you get with stupidly short wheelbase and 11% (high) towball weight.
BUT van must be light to be able to do that and not exceed rear axle capacity. Cheers
P.s Solution? Buy a decent car.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 23rd of January 2024 06:10:28 PM
Eaglemax said
04:40 PM Jan 24, 2024
transfer the mother in law from the roof to the bonnet... :)
I suppose I've become used to changes in a vehicles behaviour when towing or heavy boot loads. If it bothers that much then perhaps slimmer tyres on the front of the cruiser?. Higher tyre pressure on the front might help with less tyre wall flex
Tony
yobarr said
07:54 PM Jan 24, 2024
Eaglemax wrote:
transfer the mother in law from the roof to the bonnet... :)
I suppose I've become used to changes in a vehicles behaviour when towing or heavy boot loads. If it bothers that much then perhaps slimmer tyres on the front of the cruiser?. Higher tyre pressure on the front might help with less tyre wall flex
Tony
Ha Ha! Yes Tony, it all is a joke, with thevpost apparently designed to get the gullible to say "Derr, you juz godda gedda WDH".
For heavens sake,if removing a miserable 120kg from the front axle creates a life or death situation there definitely is something wrong with the car.
Just put a bullbar and a winch on the front of the car, and always carry a passenger! You'll be SO much safer. Yeah, right.
In case anybody has forgotten, I will iterate that a WDH, whether mandated or not, is used solely in an effort to make a car do things for which it never was designed. Cheers
P.S These fellas crossed the Simpson Desert (?) in this old Landrover, towing a heavy Dog Trailer laden with fuel.
Don't know how they managed without a WDH! Musta been lucky????
A dog trailer is not a pig trailer, so a WDH would not have helped. You know that, Yobarr.
Gundog said
07:35 AM Jan 25, 2024
It's very easy to be negative and make smart arse remarks, but then again then again his offhand comment must add a bull bar and winch must have been a joke because those items could exceed the GVM-GCM.
The question was put up as a discussion about how to resolve a light front axle weight, in any vehicle combination the LC200 was just an example.
One solution maybe a WDH but we have to be able to consider how to resolve it in the event the use of one may not available or permitted.
watsea said
11:38 PM Jan 25, 2024
Usually to help correct understeer, the front wheels need to have increased tyre pressures.
Eaglemax said
02:19 PM Jan 26, 2024
So lets assume the van ATM is 2800kg and is that.
By reducing the TBW down to 8%, no less, you'll have 30kg less on the towball. Pump up your tyres like Watsea said. Could make the world of difference.
Tony
yobarr said
10:39 PM Jan 26, 2024
watsea wrote:
A dog trailer is not a pig trailer, so a WDH would not have helped. You know that, Yobarr.
Yes Ted, of course I realise that the picture is of a Dog trailer, but it simply was a sarcastic response to what I considered to be a silly question. My comment about adding a bullbar and winch simply was a continuation of that theme.
Running at 11% towball weight is simply encouraging the car to handle strangely, but the universal cure-all WDH, wound up until the car is level, or whatever the alleged criteria may be, could promote oversteer.
Better to simply buy a car with a good wheelbase, decent rear axle carrying capacity, short TBO etc that is capable of safely towing the subject van. OR get a more suitable van. Easy stuff. Cheers
P.S Even used on a Dog trailer a WDH would take weight off the car's rear axle and transfer it to the front axle, as well as the trailer's Dolly, would it not?
With a Dog trailer there is VERY little towball weight, and MOST of us understand that towball weight is not changed by a WDH, but still there would be weight distributed to the car's front axle and the axle of the Dolly, but in different percentages from those applicable when towing a caravan because of the shorter distance fron hitchpoint to trailer axle. Cheers.
Usually to help correct understeer, the front wheels need to have increased tyre pressures.
Thats not correct, the tyre pressures must be lowered with less weight on the front wheels. What tyre pressures are you running?
watsea said
01:46 PM Jan 28, 2024
Bulldozer,
I had thought the same as you until I did a websearch to check my thinking. Do you have some other information?
We know that a vehicle towing behaves differently to one that is not towing. However most of us increase tyre pressures in the rear when towing. I gather that higher rear tyre pressure is to reduce oversteer.
Most likely one needs to adjust the pressures to match the actual loading to the respective wheels. I attached some links.
For normal highway use, the appropriate pressure for a tyre is directly related to the load it carries.
Cheers,
Peter
Bulldozer said
04:50 PM Jan 28, 2024
watsea wrote:
Bulldozer, I had thought the same as you until I did a websearch to check my thinking. Do you have some other information? We know that a vehicle towing behaves differently to one that is not towing. However most of us increase tyre pressures in the rear when towing. I gather that higher rear tyre pressure is to reduce oversteer.
Most likely one needs to adjust the pressures to match the actual loading to the respective wheels. I attached some links.
Hands on experience for me. I'm a retired Motor Mechanic, 55 years on the tools. Worked fo a Bridgestone tyre dealer for a number of years doing wheel alignments. Also in my younger years drove a rally car doing it in the dirt.
Bulldozer said
05:02 PM Jan 28, 2024
Just as a basic example, the tyre pressures on an early VW beetle, say about 1960 the tyre pressures were for cross ply tyres , 17 psi in the front and 21 psi in the rear. All the weight was in the rear with the engine and transmission. Bugger all weight in the front. If you put too much air in the front they felt light and skittish. dangerous in the wet.
Wazza..
Long Weekend said
05:55 PM Jan 28, 2024
Hi Yobarr,
I have to ask - where was the photo taken of the Swift van being towed by that tiny car? With the entrance door on the right hand side it was either America or Europe.
I have to say if I encountered that combination on the road I would not be game to get in front of it. Never mind about how it managed to tow it I would worry about it ever being able to stop!
Then perhaps it was only a spoof photo like the one floating around of a van coupled up to a new model Beatle.
(That Land Rover photo is very dated - how long is it since bar tread tyres were available?)
Murray
yobarr said
07:42 PM Jan 28, 2024
Long Weekend wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
I have to ask - where was the photo taken of the Swift van being towed by that tiny car? With the entrance door on the right hand side it was either America or Europe.
I have to say if I encountered that combination on the road I would not be game to get in front of it. Never mind about how it managed to tow it I would worry about it ever being able to stop!
Then perhaps it was only a spoof photo like the one floating around of a van coupled up to a new model Beatle.
(That Land Rover photo is very dated - how long is it since bar tread tyres were available?)
Murray
Hi Murray, unfortunately I cannot help as that photo is simply one of many in my files.
Something tells me that originally it was posted here on our forum?
The setup is not unlike some I see in my travels, encouraged by stupidly high tow ratings being issued to toy cars.
"Derr, my 2800kg spitbix can tow 3500kg Mate. No worries Mate. Just gotta drive to the conditions Mate". Yeah, right.
The sooner that the laws that apply to vehicles over 4500kg towing PIG trailers are introduced for ALL vehicles towing PIG trailers the safer we all will be. Cheers
P.S Is the car an Audi, which might suggest the photo was taken in Europe?
P.P.S The Landrover picture is one of the Leyland Bros vehicles that they used to cross Australia in 1966.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 28th of January 2024 07:53:47 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 28th of January 2024 08:28:20 PM
I don't know why anybody would want to tow a trailer across the Simpson! Looks impressive though!
Yes Montie, but the Leyland Bros made a name for themselves by crossing West-East in this 1956 Landrover.
I think this was done in 1966, but not 100% sure. Seems that they carried plenty of fuel too! Cheers
A group of us did a double crossing in 1980...French Line and WA line.
I had a BJ40 Landcruiser which had no power steering or Air Conditioning...(that all came later in the BJ42).
Big Red required Armstrong power steering.
One of our group decided he would beat the odds and built a "driven trailer" through his pto especially for the the trip......it's still out there around benchmark 8364 on the French Line!
The difference was the Leyland Bros had more support on their one way trip than General McArthur so nothing could possibly go wrong on TV.
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:05 PM Feb 2, 2024
Margaret and I crossed Australia S-N (and back) in a Mini in 1967.
Not quite the same, but it was an adventure for us......
Absolutely no support.
Refueling.
North of Alice. This was supposed to be bitumen, but not any more.
Visiting the sites in the West Macs.
North of Coober Pedy, on the way home.
EDIT... ps.... the inspirational trip of that time for us was the figure 8 trip across Australia by Gelignite Jack Murray and Evan Green in an Austin 1800 and a Mini in 1965.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 2nd of February 2024 08:09:59 PM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 2nd of February 2024 08:17:20 PM
Would have been an adventure for anybody....wish I was there!
How did the CV joints stand up?
yobarr said
08:15 PM Feb 2, 2024
Big rocks on the road for 10 wheels to cope with, Peter.
Completing that trip would have been quite an achievement in those days, let alone in a mini. Cheers
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:21 PM Feb 2, 2024
montie wrote:
Would have been an adventure for anybody....wish I was there!
How did the CV joints stand up?
No problem with the CVs. We did break an engine mount just south of Coober Pedy, got a new one up on the bus and fixed it the following morning.
2 punctures. One in the pic when Margaret 'lost' the Mini and it finished up off the road and another 15km from home on the last day caused by a piece of steel.
Pretty stupid in hind sight, but the whole trip was 3 weeks and we spent a week in Darwin and visited the Rock etc, etc.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 2nd of February 2024 08:32:54 PM
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:34 PM Feb 2, 2024
Cross Roads Alice.
Cheers,
Peter
Are We Lost said
08:38 PM Feb 2, 2024
yobarr wrote:... the Leyland Bros made a name for themselves by crossing West-East in this 1956 Landrover.
...
P.S They got bogged a few times too, I believe.
And sometimes staged for the photo opportunity.
I don't recall when or where now (maybe NW NSW in early seventies) but we were driving along and there were a few cars parked by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. Stopping to have a look, there were the Leylands, bogged on the side road. Photographers with big video cameras on tripods were there to capture the drama. There was absolutely no reason for them to be on the side road, but a grader was sitting there ready to pull them out when needed.
After sitting there for a few minutes and no sign of activity, we drove on.
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:45 PM Feb 2, 2024
They inspired a lot of overland travelers.
Cheers,
Peter
montie said
07:16 AM Feb 3, 2024
It was great TV at the time...
Bulldozer said
07:49 AM Feb 3, 2024
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Cross Roads Alice.
Cheers,
Peter
What happened when you got something heavier than a light shower of rain? Mini's stopped with water in the distributer. Mine did.
I'm interested in how you would resolve this issue.
Just for putting face to it for an example the vehicle a LC200 fully loaded with 2 pax GVM is ok, F&R axle weights are within specs. The van is a Jayco 22ft laden for trip, ATM & GTM are ok TBW is 11%.
When the LC200 and Jayco are connected GCM is ok, but the steering appear to be light and has massive understeer.
That's what you get with stupidly short wheelbase and 11% (high) towball weight.
BUT van must be light to be able to do that and not exceed rear axle capacity. Cheers
P.s Solution? Buy a decent car.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 23rd of January 2024 06:10:28 PM
transfer the mother in law from the roof to the bonnet... :)
I suppose I've become used to changes in a vehicles behaviour when towing or heavy boot loads. If it bothers that much then perhaps slimmer tyres on the front of the cruiser?. Higher tyre pressure on the front might help with less tyre wall flex
Tony
Ha Ha! Yes Tony, it all is a joke, with thevpost apparently designed to get the gullible to say "Derr, you juz godda gedda WDH".
For heavens sake,if removing a miserable 120kg from the front axle creates a life or death situation there definitely is something wrong with the car.
Just put a bullbar and a winch on the front of the car, and always carry a passenger! You'll be SO much safer. Yeah, right.
In case anybody has forgotten, I will iterate that a WDH, whether mandated or not, is used solely in an effort to make a car do things for which it never was designed. Cheers
P.S These fellas crossed the Simpson Desert (?) in this old Landrover, towing a heavy Dog Trailer laden with fuel.
Don't know how they managed without a WDH! Musta been lucky????
It's very easy to be negative and make smart arse remarks, but then again then again his offhand comment must add a bull bar and winch must have been a joke because those items could exceed the GVM-GCM.
The question was put up as a discussion about how to resolve a light front axle weight, in any vehicle combination the LC200 was just an example.
One solution maybe a WDH but we have to be able to consider how to resolve it in the event the use of one may not available or permitted.
So lets assume the van ATM is 2800kg and is that.
By reducing the TBW down to 8%, no less, you'll have 30kg less on the towball. Pump up your tyres like Watsea said. Could make the world of difference.
Tony
Yes Ted, of course I realise that the picture is of a Dog trailer, but it simply was a sarcastic response to what I considered to be a silly question. My comment about adding a bullbar and winch simply was a continuation of that theme.
Running at 11% towball weight is simply encouraging the car to handle strangely, but the universal cure-all WDH, wound up until the car is level, or whatever the alleged criteria may be, could promote oversteer.
Better to simply buy a car with a good wheelbase, decent rear axle carrying capacity, short TBO etc that is capable of safely towing the subject van. OR get a more suitable van. Easy stuff. Cheers
P.S Even used on a Dog trailer a WDH would take weight off the car's rear axle and transfer it to the front axle, as well as the trailer's Dolly, would it not?
With a Dog trailer there is VERY little towball weight, and MOST of us understand that towball weight is not changed by a WDH, but still there would be weight distributed to the car's front axle and the axle of the Dolly, but in different percentages from those applicable when towing a caravan because of the shorter distance fron hitchpoint to trailer axle. Cheers.
Thats not correct, the tyre pressures must be lowered with less weight on the front wheels. What tyre pressures are you running?
I had thought the same as you until I did a websearch to check my thinking. Do you have some other information?
We know that a vehicle towing behaves differently to one that is not towing. However most of us increase tyre pressures in the rear when towing. I gather that higher rear tyre pressure is to reduce oversteer.
Most likely one needs to adjust the pressures to match the actual loading to the respective wheels. I attached some links.
www.google.com.au/search
www.onallcylinders.com/2014/08/15/oversteer-vs-understeer-correct/
Cheers,
Peter
Hands on experience for me. I'm a retired Motor Mechanic, 55 years on the tools. Worked fo a Bridgestone tyre dealer for a number of years doing wheel alignments. Also in my younger years drove a rally car doing it in the dirt.
Wazza..
I have to ask - where was the photo taken of the Swift van being towed by that tiny car? With the entrance door on the right hand side it was either America or Europe.
I have to say if I encountered that combination on the road I would not be game to get in front of it. Never mind about how it managed to tow it I would worry about it ever being able to stop!
Then perhaps it was only a spoof photo like the one floating around of a van coupled up to a new model Beatle.
(That Land Rover photo is very dated - how long is it since bar tread tyres were available?)
Murray
Hi Murray, unfortunately I cannot help as that photo is simply one of many in my files.
Something tells me that originally it was posted here on our forum?
The setup is not unlike some I see in my travels, encouraged by stupidly high tow ratings being issued to toy cars.
"Derr, my 2800kg spitbix can tow 3500kg Mate. No worries Mate. Just gotta drive to the conditions Mate". Yeah, right.
The sooner that the laws that apply to vehicles over 4500kg towing PIG trailers are introduced for ALL vehicles towing PIG trailers the safer we all will be. Cheers
P.S Is the car an Audi, which might suggest the photo was taken in Europe?
P.P.S The Landrover picture is one of the Leyland Bros vehicles that they used to cross Australia in 1966.
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 28th of January 2024 07:53:47 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 28th of January 2024 08:28:20 PM
Looks impressive though!
Yes Montie, but the Leyland Bros made a name for themselves by crossing West-East in this 1956 Landrover.
I think this was done in 1966, but not 100% sure. Seems that they carried plenty of fuel too! Cheers
P.S They got bogged a few times too, I believe.
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 2nd of February 2024 08:09:55 PM
A group of us did a double crossing in 1980...French Line and WA line.
I had a BJ40 Landcruiser which had no power steering or Air Conditioning...(that all came later in the BJ42).
Big Red required Armstrong power steering.
One of our group decided he would beat the odds and built a "driven trailer" through his pto especially for the the trip......it's still out there around benchmark 8364 on the French Line!
The difference was the Leyland Bros had more support on their one way trip than General McArthur so nothing could possibly go wrong on TV.
Margaret and I crossed Australia S-N (and back) in a Mini in 1967.
Not quite the same, but it was an adventure for us......
Absolutely no support.
Refueling.
North of Alice. This was supposed to be bitumen, but not any more.
Visiting the sites in the West Macs.
North of Coober Pedy, on the way home.
EDIT... ps.... the inspirational trip of that time for us was the figure 8 trip across Australia by Gelignite Jack Murray and Evan Green in an Austin 1800 and a Mini in 1965.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 2nd of February 2024 08:09:59 PM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 2nd of February 2024 08:17:20 PM
Would have been an adventure for anybody....wish I was there!
How did the CV joints stand up?
Big rocks on the road for 10 wheels to cope with, Peter.
Completing that trip would have been quite an achievement in those days, let alone in a mini. Cheers
No problem with the CVs. We did break an engine mount just south of Coober Pedy, got a new one up on the bus and fixed it the following morning.
2 punctures. One in the pic when Margaret 'lost' the Mini and it finished up off the road and another 15km from home on the last day caused by a piece of steel.
Pretty stupid in hind sight, but the whole trip was 3 weeks and we spent a week in Darwin and visited the Rock etc, etc.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 2nd of February 2024 08:32:54 PM
Cross Roads Alice.
Cheers,
Peter
And sometimes staged for the photo opportunity.
I don't recall when or where now (maybe NW NSW in early seventies) but we were driving along and there were a few cars parked by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. Stopping to have a look, there were the Leylands, bogged on the side road. Photographers with big video cameras on tripods were there to capture the drama. There was absolutely no reason for them to be on the side road, but a grader was sitting there ready to pull them out when needed.
After sitting there for a few minutes and no sign of activity, we drove on.
Cheers,
Peter
What happened when you got something heavier than a light shower of rain? Mini's stopped with water in the distributer. Mine did.
