Took my caravan to the weighbridge and weighed it. I'm not happy. Tow vehicle weights are fine except the tow ball mass is right on the limit at 160kg. The weight on the caravan axle was 1120kg in the configuration that I would like to tow in with annex and annex poles etc, water hose, power lead, van jack, empty water tank and so on.
Compliance plate says GTM of 1066kg so I'm over 54kg. emptied van of all accessories including cooking gear plates etc and it now weighs 1040kg on the axle. This gives me 16kg of luggage that I can legally carry. This is totally unrealistic as we need sheets blankets, jug frypan etc.
The van has been fitted with a roll out awning so I assume this is not included in the tare weight which the compliance plate says is 914kg so I think the van does not match the compliance plate.
I hope I haven't got a rebirthed caravan. The ATM is 1214kg so I am over by 66kg. It's a Roadstar van with a fairly long towball to axle measurement.
Any suggestions as to where I go from here or do I just sell it as an spare room to someone.
Black-Pete
Possum3 said
05:47 PM Jan 30, 2024
BP, you did not state whether this is a new van or not. There may be a remedy under Australian Consumer Law. Even if this is a secondhand van from a dealer you still may have some redress, if sold and was purported to be suitable for your vehicle. Private purchases are strictly buyer beware.
Annex is usually ballast as they take too long to set up and weigh too much - roll out awning and privacy screens tend to be the modern way to go.
Gundog said
06:08 PM Jan 30, 2024
I completely disagree with the previous post regarding the annex, which is great asset as it provides an additional room with can be valuable.But a note of caution to carry an annex you are best prepared to carry it in your tow vehicle,
Perhaps you may want to consider a GTM/ATM upgrade.
I did a spreadsheet down to each phone charging cable & was shocked how easily one is over payload.
Are We Lost said
07:24 PM Jan 30, 2024
The Tare is what it should have weighed when it left the factory. If the awing and annex were dealer supplied then it is quite correct that they would not be included in the Tare. Gas would also be excluded.
As Gundog said an annex can be useful, but definitely carry it in the tow vehicle. I make a practice of putting everything I reasonably can in the tow vehicle to reduce towed weight. This includes power leads, jockey wheel, hoses and most of what I need to establish the camp.
You may find that by relocating those items that you can squeeze inside the limits. And moving them from the van (presumably forward of the wheels) will probably drop the towball weight.
If those don't solve it, the next step is to investigate getting those ratings upgraded. The ATM is exactly 300kg more than the plated Tare, so presumably a stroke of the pen rather than what the maximum should be. When you say 66kg over ATM, is that as you would like to travel or with a lot of stuff removed?
You don't say what vehicle you have and how close to limits you are. If you relocate items are you still OK?
As Possum said, if there is an unrealistic payload, and you bought from a dealer then maybe there is possible recourse.
Black-Pete said
07:29 PM Jan 30, 2024
It's a 1997 model and was bought privately. It does not have any luxuries such as batteries or solar. It may have come originally with foam mattresses but when we bought it it had inner spring singles so there is a bit of weight that could be saved if I put foam mattresses in but I find them not as comfortable and hotter. There is not much that I can remove to make it lighter except the table which is handy to have in it.
It tow very well but that means nothing if its overweight.
Black-Pete
Black-Pete said
07:49 PM Jan 30, 2024
To Are we lost,
I said it was 66kg over, this is on the atm which I worked out would be 1280kg which exceeds the rated atm of 1214kg by 66kg. On the chassis is a separate tag which states that the chassis is good to carry 1300kg but it is not on the compliance plate so I believe that is meaningless.
The tow vehicle is a 2015 ford territory 2.7 diesel titanium 2 wheel drive. specs for it are gcm 4850kg, gvm 2635kg, tare 2102kg , rear axle load rating of 1535kg. I weighed the territory separately and it came in at 2160kg with fuel tank half empty and with a few items in the car with one occupant. I want to travel with 2 occupants so would need to add another 80kg for them and about 30kg for the extra fuel with the tank full.
Black-Pete
Are We Lost said
08:58 PM Jan 30, 2024
Black-Pete wrote:
To Are we lost, I said it was 66kg over,
Yes, I was just confirming that 66kg over is before removing those items. Reading your post again I believe that to be the case. I don't know what your annex weighs, but mine is heavy. So if yours is say 30kg with poles, and you move that and a few other things to the tow vehicle you will be pretty close to squeezing inside the rating. Are these things all stored near the front? You may find relocating them substantially lowers the towball weight.
When you weighed the Territory did you weigh the axles separately? The extra 110kg for passenger and fuel, I am guessing would add about 75kg to the rear axle. The towball load of 160kg (if not reduced by relocating things) will add about 140% of that to the rear axle (say 220kg), and anything loaded in the luggage area just a little more than the actual weight. As long as you aren't planning on taking a lot of other stuff it should be OK.
But for peace of mind, perhaps you should see if an ATM and/or GTM upgrade can be approved. Rather than constantly being troubled by how close you are to the limit that would mean you no longer need to be concerned. The Territory is substantially heavier than the van which is good for stability.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 30th of January 2024 09:02:33 PM
yobarr said
09:45 PM Jan 30, 2024
Black-Pete wrote:
To Are we lost, I said it was 66kg over, this is on the atm which I worked out would be 1280kg which exceeds the rated atm of 1214kg by 66kg. On the chassis is a separate tag which states that the chassis is good to carry 1300kg but it is not on the compliance plate so I believe that is meaningless.
The tow vehicle is a 2015 ford territory 2.7 diesel titanium 2 wheel drive. specs for it are gcm 4850kg, gvm 2635kg, tare 2102kg , rear axle load rating of 1535kg. I weighed the territory separately and it came in at 2160kg with fuel tank half empty and with a few items in the car with one occupant. I want to travel with 2 occupants so would need to add another 80kg for them and about 30kg for the extra fuel with the tank full. Black-Pete
Hi Pete, Unfortunately I cannot devote time at the moment to help you, but first up I'll say that "alleged" tare means NOTHING.
Zip, zero, zilch, nil, nada. It would be helpful if you could provide photos of both the compliance plate and the "separate tag", with the van's serial number blacked-out, just for security, if you wish.
We then can do some maths for you, but nothing is impossible.
As always the limiting factor will be the car's rear axle carrying capacity, so it would be helpful if you could give us that with your passenger and a full tank of fuel. Remember that the weight applied to your rear axle is around 150% of the weight on your towball.
The extra weight is shifted from the front axle, but the maths is easy.
Ditch the annexe, but consider a roll-out awning if you must, as Possum suggests.
When I was setting up my van I discarded the full annexe, complete with skirts etc, and installed a rollout awning that takes only a minute to roll out to give shelter if needed. At just over a ton your van is a smaller model so likely only two occupants, meaning you don't need extra room and annexe is simply unwanted ballast.
Lastly, where are you based? May have contacts to help you. Again, don't worry as I"m sure that we can help. Cheers.
P.S Could be tied up for few days, but Stephen (Are we lost) has a good understanding and may be able to provide advice?
montie said
12:30 PM Feb 2, 2024
First cab off the rank, off to the weighbridge and get the real weights.
The plated tare means very little.
it is the dry empty weight of the van when it left the factory in 1997...a lot of water under the bridge since then.
You need the unhitched weight of the van to compare with the plated ATM which will allow you to calculate what available payload you have if any.
You also need the hitched weight of the van only which will allow you to calculate your actual ball weight and weight on the axle (GTM).
Unfortunately back in 1997 it was Rafferty's rules when it came to weights.
Monty
RV Dealer (retired)
Possum3 said
01:38 PM Feb 2, 2024
montie wrote:
Unfortunately back in 1997 it was Rafferty's rules when it came to weights.
They're same rules as today's lot.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Friday 2nd of February 2024 04:58:03 PM
Black-Pete said
09:02 AM Feb 3, 2024
Just an update on where I'm at with the van. I used the wife's bathroom scales and weighed everything in the boot and it came to 62kg.
By folding down the back seat in the territory I can put in the annex and poles, camp chairs and the porta potti and a few other items. I have removed the 9kg gas bottle and replaced it with a 4.5kg bottle.
In the van a previous owner has made up 3 draws in the kitchen cupboards using 15mm mbf and they weighed 15kg so they have been removed.
Total weight removed from van is now 85kg so I think I have the GTM down to 1035kg which gives me 31kg to play with. I'll go back to the weighbridge next week and double check that my calculations are right. My tow ball weight is down from 160Kg to 130Kg with the front boot empty. Now I should be able to travel with the water tank half full.
Black-Pete
Are We Lost said
09:29 AM Feb 3, 2024
Good news. 85kg reduction makes a huge difference. And by folding down the back seat in the Territory you can make sure the heavier items are placed forward of the rear axle.
Sounds like you are on a winner.
montie said
04:21 PM Feb 3, 2024
Black-Pete wrote:
Just an update on where I'm at with the van. I used the wife's bathroom scales and weighed everything in the boot and it came to 62kg. By folding down the back seat in the territory I can put in the annex and poles, camp chairs and the porta potti and a few other items. I have removed the 9kg gas bottle and replaced it with a 4.5kg bottle. In the van a previous owner has made up 3 draws in the kitchen cupboards using 15mm mbf and they weighed 15kg so they have been removed.
Total weight removed from van is now 85kg so I think I have the GTM down to 1035kg which gives me 31kg to play with. I'll go back to the weighbridge next week and double check that my calculations are right. My tow ball weight is down from 160Kg to 130Kg with the front boot empty. Now I should be able to travel with the water tank half full. Black-Pete
When you say you have your GTM down to 1035 plus ball weight of 130kg gives you a loaded weight of 1165kg, does this mean you used the weighbridge to get these figures. If not it's all guesswork.
The all up measured weight of your unhitched van must not legally exceed the plated ATM. That you say is 1216kg so you have a legal payload capacity of 51kg in the van based on the figures you have provided.
Black-Pete said
11:32 AM Feb 6, 2024
Hi Montie,
You are correct that the figures I came up with are guess work. That's the reason that when I have the van loaded to travel I'm going back to the weighbridge to make sure That my figures were correct.
Black-Pete
montie said
04:03 PM Feb 6, 2024
Black-Pete wrote:
Hi Montie, You are correct that the figures I came up with are guess work. That's the reason that when I have the van loaded to travel I'm going back to the weighbridge to make sure That my figures were correct. Black-Pete
Good idea.
As far a your van goes your loaded unhitched weight must not exceed your plated ATM.
yobarr said
04:26 PM Feb 6, 2024
montie wrote:
Black-Pete wrote:
Hi Montie, You are correct that the figures I came up with are guess work. That's the reason that when I have the van loaded to travel I'm going back to the weighbridge to make sure That my figures were correct. Black-Pete
Good idea.
As far a your van goes your loaded unhitched weight must not exceed your plated ATM.
Could I take a minute to congratulate you on being so responsible with your weights? Cheers
Took my caravan to the weighbridge and weighed it. I'm not happy. Tow vehicle weights are fine except the tow ball mass is right on the limit at 160kg. The weight on the caravan axle was 1120kg in the configuration that I would like to tow in with annex and annex poles etc, water hose, power lead, van jack, empty water tank and so on.
Compliance plate says GTM of 1066kg so I'm over 54kg. emptied van of all accessories including cooking gear plates etc and it now weighs 1040kg on the axle. This gives me 16kg of luggage that I can legally carry. This is totally unrealistic as we need sheets blankets, jug frypan etc.
The van has been fitted with a roll out awning so I assume this is not included in the tare weight which the compliance plate says is 914kg so I think the van does not match the compliance plate.
I hope I haven't got a rebirthed caravan. The ATM is 1214kg so I am over by 66kg. It's a Roadstar van with a fairly long towball to axle measurement.
Any suggestions as to where I go from here or do I just sell it as an spare room to someone.
Black-Pete
Annex is usually ballast as they take too long to set up and weigh too much - roll out awning and privacy screens tend to be the modern way to go.
I completely disagree with the previous post regarding the annex, which is great asset as it provides an additional room with can be valuable.But a note of caution to carry an annex you are best prepared to carry it in your tow vehicle,
Perhaps you may want to consider a GTM/ATM upgrade.
Maybe solar, batteries & controller/inverter added later, a spare wheel, floor mats...
I did a spreadsheet down to each phone charging cable & was shocked how easily one is over payload.
As Gundog said an annex can be useful, but definitely carry it in the tow vehicle. I make a practice of putting everything I reasonably can in the tow vehicle to reduce towed weight. This includes power leads, jockey wheel, hoses and most of what I need to establish the camp.
You may find that by relocating those items that you can squeeze inside the limits. And moving them from the van (presumably forward of the wheels) will probably drop the towball weight.
If those don't solve it, the next step is to investigate getting those ratings upgraded. The ATM is exactly 300kg more than the plated Tare, so presumably a stroke of the pen rather than what the maximum should be. When you say 66kg over ATM, is that as you would like to travel or with a lot of stuff removed?
You don't say what vehicle you have and how close to limits you are. If you relocate items are you still OK?
As Possum said, if there is an unrealistic payload, and you bought from a dealer then maybe there is possible recourse.
It tow very well but that means nothing if its overweight.
Black-Pete
I said it was 66kg over, this is on the atm which I worked out would be 1280kg which exceeds the rated atm of 1214kg by 66kg. On the chassis is a separate tag which states that the chassis is good to carry 1300kg but it is not on the compliance plate so I believe that is meaningless.
The tow vehicle is a 2015 ford territory 2.7 diesel titanium 2 wheel drive. specs for it are gcm 4850kg, gvm 2635kg, tare 2102kg , rear axle load rating of 1535kg. I weighed the territory separately and it came in at 2160kg with fuel tank half empty and with a few items in the car with one occupant. I want to travel with 2 occupants so would need to add another 80kg for them and about 30kg for the extra fuel with the tank full.
Black-Pete
Yes, I was just confirming that 66kg over is before removing those items. Reading your post again I believe that to be the case. I don't know what your annex weighs, but mine is heavy. So if yours is say 30kg with poles, and you move that and a few other things to the tow vehicle you will be pretty close to squeezing inside the rating. Are these things all stored near the front? You may find relocating them substantially lowers the towball weight.
When you weighed the Territory did you weigh the axles separately? The extra 110kg for passenger and fuel, I am guessing would add about 75kg to the rear axle. The towball load of 160kg (if not reduced by relocating things) will add about 140% of that to the rear axle (say 220kg), and anything loaded in the luggage area just a little more than the actual weight. As long as you aren't planning on taking a lot of other stuff it should be OK.
But for peace of mind, perhaps you should see if an ATM and/or GTM upgrade can be approved. Rather than constantly being troubled by how close you are to the limit that would mean you no longer need to be concerned. The Territory is substantially heavier than the van which is good for stability.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 30th of January 2024 09:02:33 PM
Hi Pete, Unfortunately I cannot devote time at the moment to help you, but first up I'll say that "alleged" tare means NOTHING.
Zip, zero, zilch, nil, nada. It would be helpful if you could provide photos of both the compliance plate and the "separate tag", with the van's serial number blacked-out, just for security, if you wish.
We then can do some maths for you, but nothing is impossible.
As always the limiting factor will be the car's rear axle carrying capacity, so it would be helpful if you could give us that with your passenger and a full tank of fuel. Remember that the weight applied to your rear axle is around 150% of the weight on your towball.
The extra weight is shifted from the front axle, but the maths is easy.
Ditch the annexe, but consider a roll-out awning if you must, as Possum suggests.
When I was setting up my van I discarded the full annexe, complete with skirts etc, and installed a rollout awning that takes only a minute to roll out to give shelter if needed. At just over a ton your van is a smaller model so likely only two occupants, meaning you don't need extra room and annexe is simply unwanted ballast.
Lastly, where are you based? May have contacts to help you. Again, don't worry as I"m sure that we can help. Cheers.
P.S Could be tied up for few days, but Stephen (Are we lost) has a good understanding and may be able to provide advice?
First cab off the rank, off to the weighbridge and get the real weights.
The plated tare means very little.
it is the dry empty weight of the van when it left the factory in 1997...a lot of water under the bridge since then.
You need the unhitched weight of the van to compare with the plated ATM which will allow you to calculate what available payload you have if any.
You also need the hitched weight of the van only which will allow you to calculate your actual ball weight and weight on the axle (GTM).
Unfortunately back in 1997 it was Rafferty's rules when it came to weights.
Monty
RV Dealer (retired)
They're same rules as today's lot.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Friday 2nd of February 2024 04:58:03 PM
By folding down the back seat in the territory I can put in the annex and poles, camp chairs and the porta potti and a few other items. I have removed the 9kg gas bottle and replaced it with a 4.5kg bottle.
In the van a previous owner has made up 3 draws in the kitchen cupboards using 15mm mbf and they weighed 15kg so they have been removed.
Total weight removed from van is now 85kg so I think I have the GTM down to 1035kg which gives me 31kg to play with. I'll go back to the weighbridge next week and double check that my calculations are right. My tow ball weight is down from 160Kg to 130Kg with the front boot empty. Now I should be able to travel with the water tank half full.
Black-Pete
Sounds like you are on a winner.
When you say you have your GTM down to 1035 plus ball weight of 130kg gives you a loaded weight of 1165kg, does this mean you used the weighbridge to get these figures. If not it's all guesswork.
The all up measured weight of your unhitched van must not legally exceed the plated ATM. That you say is 1216kg so you have a legal payload capacity of 51kg in the van based on the figures you have provided.
You are correct that the figures I came up with are guess work. That's the reason that when I have the van loaded to travel I'm going back to the weighbridge to make sure That my figures were correct.
Black-Pete
Good idea.
As far a your van goes your loaded unhitched weight must not exceed your plated ATM.
Could I take a minute to congratulate you on being so responsible with your weights? Cheers