I see absolutely no point in paying to put people in military training for 12 months only for them to come out no better off than they were before. If you're going to pay them a wage, get them doing something which gives them future skills. Put them on disaster recovery programs, start off by paying them to be labourers and train them to be truck drivers, bobcat drivers, carpenters, plumbers, landscapers, tilers, roofers and electricians.
Better for the unemployed, better for the community and better in the long term for the Government coffers when those newly trained tradies start to earn a real living and pay tax.
Simon
Are We Lost said
05:55 PM Mar 4, 2024
You do not appreciate the main benefits of being in the military. Apart from learning varius employment skills, perhaps more important is personal development.
I know in the corporate world where I worked, a prior career in the military was considered of great value because of the gained organisational skills, commitment and being a team player. Plus of course the benefit of the training in case of war.
One of my daughters is with an ex navy man, and he is a perfect example of someone with those skillsets.
Many of our youth don't need to be on the dole. A period in the military could be the wakeup call they need.
Possum3 said
06:17 PM Mar 4, 2024
I totally agree with smwhiskey - The Military requires personnel that are dedicated and fit with a certain mindset suitable for military life.
In the event of a possible conflict, nobody wants someone, looking at their six, that is not fully committed.
It is very expensive to train military personnel, (very much more than the Dole).
I also agree that many of the unemployed are unemployed, because they are unwilling to accept any position that, they believe is below their sense of entitlement. They are not people suited for the rigors and disciplines of military life.
Southern Cruizer said
07:22 PM Mar 4, 2024
On the other hand it might just put some sense into some of those heads that are completely empty and a fair bit of discipline to go with it. Might just brighten a few up a bit
smwhiskey said
08:45 PM Mar 4, 2024
Are We Lost wrote:
You do not appreciate the main benefits of being in the military.
Abuse, injuries (and subsequent poor injury management) with the possibility of dying on a training exercise are the benefits I'm familiar with either personally from my time in the green machine or relatives who went through it.
Probably not the wake up call those people need.
BarneyBDB said
10:28 PM Mar 4, 2024
Let us just keep throwing money at people who think they are entitled to it and do not need to earn it. I spent almost 27 years in the military and about the same in private industry paying taxes to support the people who have never worked a day in their life.
Australia, the lucky country. Yes, for some.
peter67 said
08:57 AM Mar 5, 2024
Southern Cruizer wrote:
On the other hand it might just put some sense into some of those heads that are completely empty and a fair bit of discipline to go with it. Might just brighten a few up a bit
A good answer. As an ex serviceman, I'd love to be a fly on the wall and watch our woke young generation try to stare down a good drill sargeant major in the barracks. Even after the short basic training course we'd see a huge attitude change, along with the mental discipline to get out there and do something constructive.
ps, I wouldn't like to cop a right hander off Jaquie Lambie either...
-- Edited by peter67 on Tuesday 5th of March 2024 09:01:34 AM
Gundog said
09:53 AM Mar 5, 2024
Im have mixed feelings about the topic, generally Im against compulsory military service.
But there are two compelling reasons for such an idea, firstly the defence force numbers are too low and secondarly there needs to be a circuit breaker to break youth unemployment.
There is another cohort of bludgers who are also a blight on the budget, those that will never repay their HECS debt. There are many of these nonsense degree holders on the rock and roll.
Is 12 months long enough, No perhaps 2 years for 17 year old with no qualifications who have been unemployed for 6 months or more, and 3 years for people with HECS debt and the entire debt waved on the compleation of 3 years service.
In reality this will never happen, its ok for Jackie make these statements because there is little chance the government of the day listening, because which ever party in government would consider this action as political suicide.
rgren2 said
01:45 PM Mar 5, 2024
Aussie1 wrote:
Personally I would like to see some of those that participated in that "alphabet parade" recently have a uniform designed to their liking chucked on them. Just the sight alone would scare the heck out of any adversary !
Hmmmm...Ms Lambie's time in the Military left a few unanswered questions...but you'd ask why after her alleged "struggles" with Mental and Physical Health issues, along with her fight for "compensation" for an alleged injury would she suggest compulsory National Service?
As has been noted above, any sort of discipline would not go astray for many of the wayward Youth of today. But...here is a curve ball, would it be racist today to not include Indigenous kids in the take up? (May I say on that front it wouldn't be a bad thing.)
As has also been noted, any attempt to Legislate compulsory National Service in this country would likely be Political suicide....but...a hell of a lot of Country's still do have a compulsory period of Military service.
I recall when "Nasho's" was a part of growing up and Australian history, we all held out breath when our 18th Birthday was imminent, would our birth date be drawn? For the record my Birth date was not called...
rgren2 said
06:08 PM Mar 5, 2024
Hitting the road wrote:
Hmmmm...Ms Lambie's time in the Military left a few unanswered questions...but you'd ask why after her alleged "struggles" with Mental and Physical Health issues, along with her fight for "compensation" for an alleged injury would she suggest compulsory National Service?
As has been noted above, any sort of discipline would not go astray for many of the wayward Youth of today. But...here is a curve ball, would it be racist today to not include Indigenous kids in the take up? (May I say on that front it wouldn't be a bad thing.)
As has also been noted, any attempt to Legislate compulsory National Service in this country would likely be Political suicide....but...a hell of a lot of Country's still do have a compulsory period of Military service.
I recall when "Nasho's" was a part of growing up and Australian history, we all held out breath when our 18th Birthday was imminent, would our birth date be drawn? For the record my Birth date was not called...
I had to register for National Service at 20. My number didnt come up, I was also in Essential Service, but I still had to present my rejection to my employer. This was in 1972 in Australia.
BasilB said
06:58 PM Mar 5, 2024
why settle for cannon fodder when trades and higher education would be much more useful?
Sarco Harris said
09:39 PM Mar 5, 2024
This is a suggestion that crops up regularly and to me is just so much BS.
Who is going to train them? Particularly when all their lives they have had no discipline and fed the firm belief in our educational system that they are 'entitled'
How are you going to retain them to give them training - you cannot lock them in, there is no practical discipline that can be enforced. Bush boot camps are just more BS.
Their parents would be outraged, force my darling Johnny to do absolutely anything, NO WAY!
The Labor/Greens coalition would never allow it.
The Federal budget would not be capable of supporting it, even if they only continued pay the dole, let alone a higher level to at least make it more attractive.
I could go on and on, but will not.
Gundog said
11:33 AM Mar 6, 2024
Sarco Harris wrote:
This is a suggestion that crops up regularly and to me is just so much BS.
Who is going to train them? Particularly when all their lives they have had no discipline and fed the firm belief in our educational system that they are 'entitled' How are you going to retain them to give them training - you cannot lock them in, there is no practical discipline that can be enforced. Bush boot camps are just more BS. Their parents would be outraged, force my darling Johnny to do absolutely anything, NO WAY! The Labor/Greens coalition would never allow it. The Federal budget would not be capable of supporting it, even if they only continued pay the dole, let alone a higher level to at least make it more attractive.
I could go on and on, but will not.
So what's your solution to generational unemployment ?
No matter which party is in government all they do is tinker with the problem, with no real effect, now we have the NDIS becoming the biggest cash cow deceitful thrives, stealing from those who most need it.
As an ex serviceman who joined of my own free will during the nasho period, its not a perfect solution but its time to do something rather maintaining the status quo.
You will be surprised how quickly they will conform to discipline, when the is no phones, computers, xbox etc, and their days work them hard all day.
Many nacho has memories of tin city at Kapooka mid winter.
Izabarack said
02:30 PM Mar 6, 2024
Jacqui is doing a bit of attention seeking here. A couple of generations ago might have benefited from the forced injection of a bit of self-discipline and national responsibility as it might have turned out a better crop of kids. Jacquis thoughts only divide the population into about 40% for it, 40% against the idea, and about 60% who could not care less. Until Centrelink stops paying a living wage to the chronically and habitually unemployed, any National Service type obligation would be actively resisted by those most likely to be targeted by a NS program.
Jacqui has clearly not considered the difficulties of turning Australia into a Militarised society. A very large percentage of Australias current population are migrants or first generation Australians. Might be hard to convince many of those to don a military uniform and develop some level of war readiness and skills.
littledick said
05:57 PM Mar 6, 2024
BasilB wrote:
why settle for cannon fodder when trades and higher education would be much more useful?
This would help sort the dole bludgers out that don't want to work or learn a trade!
JayDee said
08:24 AM Mar 7, 2024
Back in 1958-9, I was drafted into the National Service ( Nasho)
77 days at Wacol military training centre at Wacol in Brisbane Qld.
I was a member of 11 platoon Charle Company.
It instilled the discipline of supporting your fellow man.
Respect for the people in command, and also for your fellow serviceman. (Women were not drafted into Nasho.)
Respect is something that does not exist in many of today's youth.
I then served in the Reserve Army for a number of years.
The disciplines I followed in Nasho are still a major part of my life today.
I had just met the DEE of my life and thankfully she stayed the distance.
Nasho to me was the best thing to happen to a young person.
I went in a bit wet behind the ears and came out a man.
Jay&Dee
smwhiskey said
08:51 AM Mar 7, 2024
JayDee wrote:
Respect for the people in command, and also for your fellow serviceman. (Women were not drafted into Nasho.) Respect is something that does not exist in many of today's youth.
Jay&Dee
Certainly agree with the 2nd sentence but the difference today from back when you did it, you probably already had a certain amount of respect for your elders and authority so it wasn't a huge leap. As you've pointed out, that certainly isn't the case now. And so the question has to be asked how military service would achieve that without the bleeding hearts complaining that forced marches, constant drills, exercises out bush in the heat, the cold and/or rain, guard duty, getting up at dawn, making their beds and the lack of internet was on some level against the "rights" of those concerned.
Simon
DMaxer said
09:33 AM Mar 9, 2024
I think this is yet another problem we have solved. We seem to agree that canings and physical beltings will get the young people into the right frame of mind. We also agree that anyone that goes astray needs a good stretch in some hideous prison. What next? Oh yes. A stint in the military getting a good spray each day should have the miscreants shaping up to our standard.
There seems to be something missing. How about a Youth Movement where we can get into their heads at an early age and indoctrinate them into which people and ethnicities are acceptable to us.
I can see us marching forward with our youth possessing a whole new sense of purpose.
dorian said
10:16 AM Mar 9, 2024
Respect must be earned, not automatically granted. Unearned respect forms the basis of the aristocracy, totalitarian states, dictatorships, and all those "entitled" aspects of society that most people in this place complain about, although such criticisms are mostly directed at the young generation.
As for marching, I only need to reread Catch 22 to understand the absurdity of it.
By the way, when you demand unqualified respect for authority, just reflect on the image of the "honourable" member for New England, lying on his back in the gutter, and swearing into his phone.
-- Edited by dorian on Saturday 9th of March 2024 10:21:42 AM
smwhiskey said
02:35 PM Mar 9, 2024
DMaxer wrote:
There seems to be something missing. How about a Youth Movement where we can get into their heads at an early age and indoctrinate them into which people and ethnicities are acceptable to us.
Worked in the 1930's. Then again a swift kick up the backside when required also worked in the 1930's without the subsequent world devastation and loss of life.
smwhiskey said
02:37 PM Mar 9, 2024
dorian wrote:
By the way, when you demand unqualified respect for authority, just reflect on the image of the "honourable" member for New England, lying on his back in the gutter, and swearing into his phone.
I've lived in Canberra and it would be a pretty safe bet to say that he probably wasn't the only one. He was just the most "famous" one.
DMaxer said
03:11 PM Mar 9, 2024
Worked in the 1930's did it. Worked for whom?
smwhiskey said
03:40 PM Mar 9, 2024
DMaxer wrote:
Worked in the 1930's did it. Worked for whom?
Germany in the 1930's. The Hitler Youth indoctrinated a whole generation of German youth into the superiority of the German race and the "sub-humanness" of the Jewish and Slavic races. From the point of view of achieving the goals that it set out to do it could be argued that it was incredibly successful in that large number of German youth believed the rhetoric. Unfortunately it was the success of that indoctrination that ensured such atrocities as the Holocaust were allowed to happen.
Sadly, it seems the mists of time are now obscuring those lessons that were so painfully learnt back then.
peter67 said
08:09 PM Mar 9, 2024
DMaxer wrote:
I think this is yet another problem we have solved. We seem to agree that canings and physical beltings will get the young people into the right frame of mind. We also agree that anyone that goes astray needs a good stretch in some hideous prison. What next? Oh yes. A stint in the military getting a good spray each day should have the miscreants shaping up to our standard.
There seems to be something missing. How about a Youth Movement where we can get into their heads at an early age and indoctrinate them into which people and ethnicities are acceptable to us.
I can see us marching forward with our youth possessing a whole new sense of purpose.
You crack me up, and perhaps you are being too subtle here for some people. I therefore challenge you to rewrite this quoted post in a more obviously sarcastic tone.
I don't agree with this.
I see absolutely no point in paying to put people in military training for 12 months only for them to come out no better off than they were before. If you're going to pay them a wage, get them doing something which gives them future skills. Put them on disaster recovery programs, start off by paying them to be labourers and train them to be truck drivers, bobcat drivers, carpenters, plumbers, landscapers, tilers, roofers and electricians.
Better for the unemployed, better for the community and better in the long term for the Government coffers when those newly trained tradies start to earn a real living and pay tax.
Simon
I know in the corporate world where I worked, a prior career in the military was considered of great value because of the gained organisational skills, commitment and being a team player. Plus of course the benefit of the training in case of war.
One of my daughters is with an ex navy man, and he is a perfect example of someone with those skillsets.
Many of our youth don't need to be on the dole. A period in the military could be the wakeup call they need.
In the event of a possible conflict, nobody wants someone, looking at their six, that is not fully committed.
It is very expensive to train military personnel, (very much more than the Dole).
I also agree that many of the unemployed are unemployed, because they are unwilling to accept any position that, they believe is below their sense of entitlement. They are not people suited for the rigors and disciplines of military life.
Abuse, injuries (and subsequent poor injury management) with the possibility of dying on a training exercise are the benefits I'm familiar with either personally from my time in the green machine or relatives who went through it.
Probably not the wake up call those people need.
Australia, the lucky country. Yes, for some.
A good answer. As an ex serviceman, I'd love to be a fly on the wall and watch our woke young generation try to stare down a good drill sargeant major in the barracks. Even after the short basic training course we'd see a huge attitude change, along with the mental discipline to get out there and do something constructive.
ps, I wouldn't like to cop a right hander off Jaquie Lambie either...
-- Edited by peter67 on Tuesday 5th of March 2024 09:01:34 AM
Im have mixed feelings about the topic, generally Im against compulsory military service.
But there are two compelling reasons for such an idea, firstly the defence force numbers are too low and secondarly there needs to be a circuit breaker to break youth unemployment.
There is another cohort of bludgers who are also a blight on the budget, those that will never repay their HECS debt. There are many of these nonsense degree holders on the rock and roll.
Is 12 months long enough, No perhaps 2 years for 17 year old with no qualifications who have been unemployed for 6 months or more, and 3 years for people with HECS debt and the entire debt waved on the compleation of 3 years service.
In reality this will never happen, its ok for Jackie make these statements because there is little chance the government of the day listening, because which ever party in government would consider this action as political suicide.
Just for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-2jLLMdEBw
As has been noted above, any sort of discipline would not go astray for many of the wayward Youth of today. But...here is a curve ball, would it be racist today to not include Indigenous kids in the take up? (May I say on that front it wouldn't be a bad thing.)
As has also been noted, any attempt to Legislate compulsory National Service in this country would likely be Political suicide....but...a hell of a lot of Country's still do have a compulsory period of Military service.
I recall when "Nasho's" was a part of growing up and Australian history, we all held out breath when our 18th Birthday was imminent, would our birth date be drawn? For the record my Birth date was not called...
I had to register for National Service at 20. My number didnt come up, I was also in Essential Service, but I still had to present my rejection to my employer. This was in 1972 in Australia.
why settle for cannon fodder when trades and higher education would be much more useful?
Who is going to train them? Particularly when all their lives they have had no discipline and fed the firm belief in our educational system that they are 'entitled'
How are you going to retain them to give them training - you cannot lock them in, there is no practical discipline that can be enforced. Bush boot camps are just more BS.
Their parents would be outraged, force my darling Johnny to do absolutely anything, NO WAY!
The Labor/Greens coalition would never allow it.
The Federal budget would not be capable of supporting it, even if they only continued pay the dole, let alone a higher level to at least make it more attractive.
I could go on and on, but will not.
So what's your solution to generational unemployment ?
No matter which party is in government all they do is tinker with the problem, with no real effect, now we have the NDIS becoming the biggest cash cow deceitful thrives, stealing from those who most need it.
As an ex serviceman who joined of my own free will during the nasho period, its not a perfect solution but its time to do something rather maintaining the status quo.
You will be surprised how quickly they will conform to discipline, when the is no phones, computers, xbox etc, and their days work them hard all day.
Many nacho has memories of tin city at Kapooka mid winter.
Jacqui is doing a bit of attention seeking here. A couple of generations ago might have benefited from the forced injection of a bit of self-discipline and national responsibility as it might have turned out a better crop of kids. Jacquis thoughts only divide the population into about 40% for it, 40% against the idea, and about 60% who could not care less. Until Centrelink stops paying a living wage to the chronically and habitually unemployed, any National Service type obligation would be actively resisted by those most likely to be targeted by a NS program.
Jacqui has clearly not considered the difficulties of turning Australia into a Militarised society. A very large percentage of Australias current population are migrants or first generation Australians. Might be hard to convince many of those to don a military uniform and develop some level of war readiness and skills.
This would help sort the dole bludgers out that don't want to work or learn a trade!
77 days at Wacol military training centre at Wacol in Brisbane Qld.
I was a member of 11 platoon Charle Company.
It instilled the discipline of supporting your fellow man.
Respect for the people in command, and also for your fellow serviceman. (Women were not drafted into Nasho.)
Respect is something that does not exist in many of today's youth.
I then served in the Reserve Army for a number of years.
The disciplines I followed in Nasho are still a major part of my life today.
I had just met the DEE of my life and thankfully she stayed the distance.
Nasho to me was the best thing to happen to a young person.
I went in a bit wet behind the ears and came out a man.
Jay&Dee
Certainly agree with the 2nd sentence but the difference today from back when you did it, you probably already had a certain amount of respect for your elders and authority so it wasn't a huge leap. As you've pointed out, that certainly isn't the case now. And so the question has to be asked how military service would achieve that without the bleeding hearts complaining that forced marches, constant drills, exercises out bush in the heat, the cold and/or rain, guard duty, getting up at dawn, making their beds and the lack of internet was on some level against the "rights" of those concerned.
Simon
I think this is yet another problem we have solved. We seem to agree that canings and physical beltings will get the young people into the right frame of mind. We also agree that anyone that goes astray needs a good stretch in some hideous prison. What next? Oh yes. A stint in the military getting a good spray each day should have the miscreants shaping up to our standard.
There seems to be something missing. How about a Youth Movement where we can get into their heads at an early age and indoctrinate them into which people and ethnicities are acceptable to us.
I can see us marching forward with our youth possessing a whole new sense of purpose.
Respect must be earned, not automatically granted. Unearned respect forms the basis of the aristocracy, totalitarian states, dictatorships, and all those "entitled" aspects of society that most people in this place complain about, although such criticisms are mostly directed at the young generation.
As for marching, I only need to reread Catch 22 to understand the absurdity of it.
By the way, when you demand unqualified respect for authority, just reflect on the image of the "honourable" member for New England, lying on his back in the gutter, and swearing into his phone.
-- Edited by dorian on Saturday 9th of March 2024 10:21:42 AM
Worked in the 1930's. Then again a swift kick up the backside when required also worked in the 1930's without the subsequent world devastation and loss of life.
I've lived in Canberra and it would be a pretty safe bet to say that he probably wasn't the only one. He was just the most "famous" one.
Worked in the 1930's did it. Worked for whom?
Germany in the 1930's. The Hitler Youth indoctrinated a whole generation of German youth into the superiority of the German race and the "sub-humanness" of the Jewish and Slavic races. From the point of view of achieving the goals that it set out to do it could be argued that it was incredibly successful in that large number of German youth believed the rhetoric. Unfortunately it was the success of that indoctrination that ensured such atrocities as the Holocaust were allowed to happen.
Sadly, it seems the mists of time are now obscuring those lessons that were so painfully learnt back then.
You crack me up, and perhaps you are being too subtle here for some people. I therefore challenge you to rewrite this quoted post in a more obviously sarcastic tone.