I know this topic has nothing whatever to do with caravans or tugs or any other related matter but I am hoping that by posting it here there may be others in the same position and may offer some advice or thoughts on the matter.
I hope Cindy approves as this kind of treatment is far too often swept under the carpet and turning a blind eye seems to be the norm.
After undergoing yet ANOTHER harrowing day at the ADMINISTRATIVE APPELAS TRIBUNAL with Blue and seeing the effect this has had on him I AM AN UNHAPPY JAN to say the least.
When are the powers that be going to give our veteran's the respect they are due and especially when it has been proven that the injuries they sustained in the course of their military service (physical or otherwise) are backed up not just by one Doctor but by four, and stop finding every loop hole they can possibly find, even going back 25 years, so that they don't have to pay them the pension that they are entitled to.
There must be some way we can bring all this out into the world at large.
I know all you Vets out there will say it's all happened before and probably that there isn't much that can be done but somewhere, somehow, someway there must be something.
I have put this on the open part of this forum in the hopes that some of those who haven't joined the forum will join and enlighten me/us as to what their own cases have been or are like with the Department of Veteran's Affairs.
Thanks for reading. Just had to let off some steam.
P.S. It's not just the veteran's who suffer, it's the wives especially and the family as a whole.
Gerty Dancer said
07:28 PM Oct 14, 2011
Ma wrote:
P.S. It's not just the veteran's who suffer, it's the wives especially and the family as a whole.
Oh Ma, you are so right!!! You have my wholehearted support, but honestly I have no idea what can be done to change this problem. Things are a bit better now than when they first came home from Vietnam... but when politicians go to war themselves instead of sending other peoples sons/brothers/husbands/fathers things might change.
Ma said
07:31 PM Oct 14, 2011
That is true Gert, but being politicians they would find some loop hole to keep themselves and those nearest and dearest out of any conflict I reckon.
Part of what the DVA base their case on is an act that was brought in in 1980 which has little bearing on the cases that are coming before them now that the veterans are older.
Just another case of living in yesterday.
Landfall said
08:11 PM Oct 14, 2011
Ma,
Have you got a veterans welfare officer looking after your case?
These people belong to various ESP organisations such as the RS&L, Vietnam Veterans Assoc. They know all the correct procedures, can represent you and have a wealth of other cases to draw a precedent from.
They are trained by T.I.P. and are insured against giving you bad advice.
May I suggest you seek one out urgently.
Dusty
President NMBVAA Inc (Tasmania)
PS:- I have nothing but the highest of praise for our DVA here in Hobart.
-- Edited by Landfall on Friday 14th of October 2011 08:12:11 PM
Ma said
08:38 PM Oct 14, 2011
Have PM'd you Dusty
We are at a loss as to what NMBVAA Inc. means. Could you enlighten us.
-- Edited by Ma on Friday 14th of October 2011 08:45:21 PM
Landfall said
09:20 PM Oct 14, 2011
Easy,
National Malaya Borneo Veterans Association Australia. (inc)
Dusty
Ma said
09:33 PM Oct 14, 2011
Yeah Dusty, easy to remember when your memory gets jogged.
You have Blue's honour and respect as indeed mine too.
NeilandRaine said
10:01 PM Oct 14, 2011
I've had dealings with DVA since 1992, in NSW and Tasmania, and after a few hickups at the start my dealings with them have always been good. Don't blame the people at DVA blame the Government who make and change the rules to save a buck. I remember reading Blue was a RAAFie and I wish him luck but you must get a good advocate from the RSL or VVA and if that fails go to Legal Aid. If I was asked to guess I would say you are in Victoria. Good Luck
Ma said
10:23 PM Oct 14, 2011
NSW Neil and yes a RAFFIE. We have a very good Advocate and the people at Legal Aid and the Barrister they got on Blue's behalf couldn't be faulted.
It goes back to an act that was passed in 1980 and the definition of the word "MAY" in section 24c of the act.
Like you say, it's not the DVA so much as the Government. All the DVA can do is go according to the guidelines.
I can honestly see why some Veteran's end up topping themselves after going through all the channels and still not getting anywhere. Thankfully Blue isn't at that stage (YET).
pricey43 said
10:38 PM Oct 14, 2011
I understand what you are going through. My mother thankfully had a wonderful advocate working for her. She was ready to give up numerous times but he insisted on fighting back. It got to the stage of being taken to court. They eventually backed off and she won her case. The support she now gets takes a load of stress of all the family. It seems the same with most groups, insurance companies, centrelink, etc. I'm sure they think that if they baffle you with form after form, appointment after appointment, and obstacle after obstacle people will give up.
Just keep jumping those hurdles Ma and Blue, and eventually you will get to the post hopefully as the Winners.
Ma said
11:00 PM Oct 14, 2011
The DVA bloke has asked a number of times if we are ready to give up.
DEFINITE NO was the answer.
Glad everything worked out for your Mum though.
Dunco said
11:07 PM Oct 14, 2011
Sorry, I would like to know the WHOLE story ????
Ma said
11:22 PM Oct 14, 2011
If you would like to send me your email addy I would be more than happy to tell you the whole story.
Elaine
Travel Bug said
11:31 PM Oct 14, 2011
Elaine, I'm so sorry to hear that you and Rob have copped even more shoddy treatment.
I can't offer a solution as I have no experience in this area...I just want you both to know that you are in my thoughts.
Take care.
tonyd said
12:28 AM Oct 15, 2011
Ma, you and Blue have my deep sympathy. I have been very angry for years about how our politicians (I stress politicians, rather than any others involved) treat our returned service personnel. Hypocrisy and callow disregard are words that come to mind. That wonderful poet Rudyard Kipling summed it up thus (writing about British 'Tommies'):
Yes, makin' mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep/ Is cheaper than them uniforms and they're starvation cheap/ Then it's Tommy this and Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, 'ow's your soul?'/ But it's 'Thin red line of 'eroes' when the drums begin to roll./
Indeed.
Salutations and support, Tony.
ozi2 said
10:01 AM Oct 15, 2011
Ma wrote:
NSW Neil and yes a RAFFIE. We have a very good Advocate and the people at Legal Aid and the Barrister they got on Blue's behalf couldn't be faulted.
It goes back to an act that was passed in 1980 and the definition of the word "MAY" in section 24c of the act.
Like you say, it's not the DVA so much as the Government. All the DVA can do is go according to the guidelines.
I can honestly see why some Veteran's end up topping themselves after going through all the channels and still not getting anywhere. Thankfully Blue isn't at that stage (YET).
Hi Ma & Blue, using the same act, what happened to...based on the balance of probabilities? Are they saying it didnt happen? ( Veterans Repat Act 1986)
The DVA of today are a much improved govt dept who can only use the rules and guidelines of the act presented to them by a govt of the day that keeps moving the goal posts. My view of the definition of guidelines is that they are simply a guide, an indicator........not a definative view one way or the other as much as delegates would like to think they are in their decision making.
I would like to think that delegates with no medical background can no longer over rule their own DMO (Dept Medical Officer) opinion when making a decision on a veterans initial claim; because that was the case when my claim was determined.
If it wasnt for the freedom of information act avail at that time and the determination of VVAA pension officers I would never have known that the Veterans Affairs own doctors had assessed medically recorded Vietnam injuries at 70% (before lifestyle assessment) whilst the delegate saw fit to award me 20% and to this day I have never forgotten that sleight of hand and the hypocrisy of govts towards veterans of all wars and service periods. ( and yes Ma, they still fought all the way to the AAT.)
I would also like to believe that todays reviews are conducted by appointee's who can deliver a fair and just decision free of political interference; after all, the health and welfare of a veteran and his/her family must surely take precedence over their extremely lucrative position for 15hrs part time work with such generous travel allowances?
I make no apologies for the cynacism and I perfectly understand Blue's anger for a system that refuses to change but I wish him a successful outcome....eventually,
Go Blue!
cheers,ozi2
Ma said
10:34 AM Oct 15, 2011
Thank you Ozi2 for your thoughts and also thankyou to everyone who has replied to my original post.
There was a complete unconsulted change of job description for Blue.
He knew he would not be able to handle the job due to the effects of his war injuries and rather than bringing the company into disrepute by his failure to carry out the new tasks he resigned.
We now have learnt that had he tried to do the job and failed he would have full TPI NOW!!
Go figure.
Do these blokes have to be brought RIGHT down. Surely they can be left with some dignity.
Vic said
11:16 AM Oct 15, 2011
Ma, I did 20 years ADF full time service, when I enlisted I had A1 (perfect) hearing, at the end of my service through service related noise etc my hearing had detiorated badly and got worse over the years.
As my hearing was documented with the ADF before and after service, when it got to a stage where I needed hearing aids I applied to DVA for hearing aids and a white card, however while they accepted responsibility for a small part of the hearing loss (eg; you must have been using lawn mowers, your civilian jobs after (all none noise jobs) etc and at one stage actually paid me a small amount of compo (without prejudice, that is did not exclude future hearing aids or treatment) when that time came they refused to pay for my hearing aids etc.
Although I went through their channels I got no where. I did not get an advocate, which in retrospect I probably should have. As by this time I was eligible for the government age hearing aid tests and part financial assistance in the end I gave up. I have a hearing aid for each ear now but they (the aids) frustrate me and are annoying so I don't wear them.
I feel for Blue, their treatment of him stinks.
Much back slapping and photo opportunities by pollies while you are in, but once your service is over they don't want to know you.
delapan said
11:38 AM Oct 15, 2011
hi Ma, i know exactly how you feel, i gave up in the end with DVA trying to up my disability pension, every obstacle is put in your way at all points, and to Vic i agree wholeheartedly with your comments, regards, gary
Ma said
01:18 PM Oct 15, 2011
We are ALMOST at that stage Gary. Will wait and see what they come back with I guess.
ozi2 said
02:28 PM Oct 15, 2011
Hi again Ma & Blue; I firmly believe that until such time that the end process becomes the first process then all veterans and their families who have suffered for their service in whatever capacity will have to endure a unique process of torture by civil servants operating as the government of the day's proxy.
Why should any veteran be denied legal representation until the third AND FINAL stage of the process? When a veteran lodges a claim, that claim is poured over by DVA experts who are out to deny, delay and frustrate a claimant out of his/her entitlement.
Part of the process is to diminish the veteran & their claim in the hope they drop it or accept a fraction of what they are entitled. This has happened to thousands, yes, thousands of service men and woman from all service across active service to injuries suffered at home.
The appeal process is an industry in itself. How many medical specialist opinions are sought during the ordeal, legal opinions....too many and costing too much. There are too many people enriching themselves at the cost of veterans and taxpayer.
Make the final process the beginning, allow legal representation on lodging a claim and then see what a difference it makes! Our illegal immigrants get a better deal on their claims and a lawyer!
I hope you win Blue because everyone who has gone before you know what you are going through.
cheers
ozi2
Ma said
02:37 PM Oct 15, 2011
How true is everything you have posted here ozi2.
Maybe we should jump in our little tinny and motor out into the ocean until our petrol runs out and then send out a mayday and of course not having any papers we might get some attention.
Sorry, not going to start a political argument here on boat people but, IF THE CAP FITS as they say.
signwilson said
03:23 PM Oct 15, 2011
join the tri services web site there is a lot of guys there that might be able to help http://www.tri-service.org/ some really good people there
Ma said
03:40 PM Oct 15, 2011
Thanks Ian will do that.
ken thomas said
03:43 PM Oct 15, 2011
Not in your position but I reckon all of the veterans should be bombarding every member of parliament with their complaints and lack of compassion or else apply for citizenship as a refugee Ken
Ma said
03:44 PM Oct 15, 2011
My sentiments too Ken.
jimbo said
07:28 PM Oct 15, 2011
I'm sorry ma too hear of your treatment with this Govt.....I say this with tongue in cheeck We... )The Govt).... have too look after the new Boat and Air craft Que jumpers......And give them Homes and Dole cheques and Phone cards And discount Daily Planet vouchers to stop them seeking Virgins ( 72 I think the latest was.....My Father died In the ww11 for this too happen.Thank Goddness this site allows us to voice an opinion
Cruising Granny said
07:40 PM Oct 15, 2011
Don't give up whatever you do!!! Do not give up! Take a deep breath, stand by the claim, and keep fighting. You will triumph in the end, but they make it bloody hard. If you're prepared to weaken and fold, they'll let you, rather than support you. Work with your Advocate. They have the best understanding of the "system", and can work it to your advantage if you stick to it and keep fighting. It's important to stand strong, believe in your case with all your strength, and work with your Advocate. Have faith! Let him do the hard work for you, on your behalf. That's his job. Help him to do it. Don't let them demoralise you. The system aims to keep your claim to a minimum. If you give in they'll let you. Several of my mates have had to go through what you're going through now. In the end, the fight was worth it, but it' a hard, demoralising fight. There will be a time when you'll wonder if you were ever in the services and fought for this country to defend them. My thoughts are with you. You're entitled.
Ma said
07:52 PM Oct 15, 2011
jimbo wrote:
I'm sorry ma too hear of your treatment with this Govt.....I say this with tongue in cheeck We... )The Govt).... have too look after the new Boat and Air craft Que jumpers......And give them Homes and Dole cheques and Phone cards And discount Daily Planet vouchers to stop them seeking Virgins ( 72 I think the latest was.....My Father died In the ww11 for this too happen.Thank Goddness this site allows us to voice an opinion
Yes Jimbo, we do live in a lucky country and are able to voice our opinion and that's what people like your father and my Uncles (killed in New Guinea) and Blue fought for as you have said.
Think this Government should get their priorities right
Ma said
07:56 PM Oct 15, 2011
Thanks Christine you sure do have a way with words and they have all been relayed to Blue as have everyone elses too. Thank you all very very much. Your encouragement and shared experiences have gone a long way to help make this fight just that bit easier for us.
It is so good and indeed comforting to know that we are part of a great "family" and that we support each other as and when we can.
We have already met quite a few of you now in our travels and I sincerely hope that we can meet all the rest of you one day somewhere in this great land.
I know this topic has nothing whatever to do with caravans or tugs or any other related matter but I am hoping that by posting it here there may be others in the same position and may offer some advice or thoughts on the matter.
I hope Cindy approves as this kind of treatment is far too often swept under the carpet and turning a blind eye seems to be the norm.
After undergoing yet ANOTHER harrowing day at the ADMINISTRATIVE APPELAS TRIBUNAL with Blue and seeing the effect this has had on him I AM AN UNHAPPY JAN to say the least.
When are the powers that be going to give our veteran's the respect they are due and especially when it has been proven that the injuries they sustained in the course of their military service (physical or otherwise) are backed up not just by one Doctor but by four, and stop finding every loop hole they can possibly find, even going back 25 years, so that they don't have to pay them the pension that they are entitled to.
There must be some way we can bring all this out into the world at large.
I know all you Vets out there will say it's all happened before and probably that there isn't much that can be done but somewhere, somehow, someway there must be something.
I have put this on the open part of this forum in the hopes that some of those who haven't joined the forum will join and enlighten me/us as to what their own cases have been or are like with the Department of Veteran's Affairs.
Thanks for reading. Just had to let off some steam.
P.S. It's not just the veteran's who suffer, it's the wives especially and the family as a whole.
Oh Ma, you are so right!!! You have my wholehearted support, but honestly I have no idea what can be done to change this problem. Things are a bit better now than when they first came home from Vietnam... but when politicians go to war themselves instead of sending other peoples sons/brothers/husbands/fathers things might change.
That is true Gert, but being politicians they would find some loop hole to keep themselves and those nearest and dearest out of any conflict I reckon.
Part of what the DVA base their case on is an act that was brought in in 1980 which has little bearing on the cases that are coming before them now that the veterans are older.
Just another case of living in yesterday.
Ma,
Have you got a veterans welfare officer looking after your case?
These people belong to various ESP organisations such as the RS&L, Vietnam Veterans Assoc. They know all the correct procedures, can represent you and have a wealth of other cases to draw a precedent from.
They are trained by T.I.P. and are insured against giving you bad advice.
May I suggest you seek one out urgently.
Dusty
President NMBVAA Inc (Tasmania)
PS:- I have nothing but the highest of praise for our DVA here in Hobart.
-- Edited by Landfall on Friday 14th of October 2011 08:12:11 PM
Have PM'd you Dusty
We are at a loss as to what NMBVAA Inc. means. Could you enlighten us.
-- Edited by Ma on Friday 14th of October 2011 08:45:21 PM
Easy,
National Malaya Borneo Veterans Association Australia. (inc)
Dusty
Yeah Dusty, easy to remember when your memory gets jogged.
You have Blue's honour and respect as indeed mine too.
Don't blame the people at DVA blame the Government who make and change the rules to save a buck.
I remember reading Blue was a RAAFie and I wish him luck but you must get a good advocate from the RSL or VVA and if that fails go to Legal Aid.
If I was asked to guess I would say you are in Victoria.
Good Luck
NSW Neil and yes a RAFFIE. We have a very good Advocate and the people at Legal Aid and the Barrister they got on Blue's behalf couldn't be faulted.
It goes back to an act that was passed in 1980 and the definition of the word "MAY" in section 24c of the act.
Like you say, it's not the DVA so much as the Government. All the DVA can do is go according to the guidelines.
I can honestly see why some Veteran's end up topping themselves after going through all the channels and still not getting anywhere. Thankfully Blue isn't at that stage (YET).
Just keep jumping those hurdles Ma and Blue, and eventually you will get to the post hopefully as the Winners.
The DVA bloke has asked a number of times if we are ready to give up.
DEFINITE NO was the answer.
Glad everything worked out for your Mum though.
If you would like to send me your email addy I would be more than happy to tell you the whole story.
Elaine
Elaine, I'm so sorry to hear that you and Rob have copped even more shoddy treatment.
I can't offer a solution as I have no experience in this area...I just want you both to know that you are in my thoughts.
Take care.
That wonderful poet Rudyard Kipling summed it up thus (writing about British 'Tommies'):
Yes, makin' mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep/
Is cheaper than them uniforms and they're starvation cheap/
Then it's Tommy this and Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, 'ow's your soul?'/
But it's 'Thin red line of 'eroes' when the drums begin to roll./
Indeed.
Salutations and support, Tony.
Hi Ma & Blue, using the same act, what happened to...based on the balance of probabilities? Are they saying it didnt happen? ( Veterans Repat Act 1986)
The DVA of today are a much improved govt dept who can only use the rules and guidelines of the act presented to them by a govt of the day that keeps moving the goal posts. My view of the definition of guidelines is that they are simply a guide, an indicator........not a definative view one way or the other as much as delegates would like to think they are in their decision making.
I would like to think that delegates with no medical background can no longer over rule their own DMO (Dept Medical Officer) opinion when making a decision on a veterans initial claim; because that was the case when my claim was determined.
If it wasnt for the freedom of information act avail at that time and the determination of VVAA pension officers I would never have known that the Veterans Affairs own doctors had assessed medically recorded Vietnam injuries at 70% (before lifestyle assessment) whilst the delegate saw fit to award me 20% and to this day I have never forgotten that sleight of hand and the hypocrisy of govts towards veterans of all wars and service periods. ( and yes Ma, they still fought all the way to the AAT.)
I would also like to believe that todays reviews are conducted by appointee's who can deliver a fair and just decision free of political interference; after all, the health and welfare of a veteran and his/her family must surely take precedence over their extremely lucrative position for 15hrs part time work with such generous travel allowances?
I make no apologies for the cynacism and I perfectly understand Blue's anger for a system that refuses to change but I wish him a successful outcome....eventually,
Go Blue!
cheers,ozi2
Thank you Ozi2 for your thoughts and also thankyou to everyone who has replied to my original post.
There was a complete unconsulted change of job description for Blue.
He knew he would not be able to handle the job due to the effects of his war injuries and rather than bringing the company into disrepute by his failure to carry out the new tasks he resigned.
We now have learnt that had he tried to do the job and failed he would have full TPI NOW!!
Go figure.
Do these blokes have to be brought RIGHT down. Surely they can be left with some dignity.
As my hearing was documented with the ADF before and after service, when it got to a stage where I needed hearing aids I applied to DVA for hearing aids and a white card, however while they accepted responsibility for a small part of the hearing loss (eg; you must have been using lawn mowers, your civilian jobs after (all none noise jobs) etc and at one stage actually paid me a small amount of compo (without prejudice, that is did not exclude future hearing aids or treatment) when that time came they refused to pay for my hearing aids etc.
Although I went through their channels I got no where. I did not get an advocate, which in retrospect I probably should have. As by this time I was eligible for the government age hearing aid tests and part financial assistance in the end I gave up. I have a hearing aid for each ear now but they (the aids) frustrate me and are annoying so I don't wear them.
I feel for Blue, their treatment of him stinks.
Much back slapping and photo opportunities by pollies while you are in, but once your service is over they don't want to know you.
hi Ma, i know exactly how you feel, i gave up in the end with DVA trying to up my disability pension, every obstacle is put in your way at all points, and to Vic i agree wholeheartedly with your comments, regards, gary
We are ALMOST at that stage Gary. Will wait and see what they come back with I guess.
Hi again Ma & Blue; I firmly believe that until such time that the end process becomes the first process then all veterans and their families who have suffered for their service in whatever capacity will have to endure a unique process of torture by civil servants operating as the government of the day's proxy.
Why should any veteran be denied legal representation until the third AND FINAL stage of the process? When a veteran lodges a claim, that claim is poured over by DVA experts who are out to deny, delay and frustrate a claimant out of his/her entitlement.
Part of the process is to diminish the veteran & their claim in the hope they drop it or accept a fraction of what they are entitled. This has happened to thousands, yes, thousands of service men and woman from all service across active service to injuries suffered at home.
The appeal process is an industry in itself. How many medical specialist opinions are sought during the ordeal, legal opinions....too many and costing too much. There are too many people enriching themselves at the cost of veterans and taxpayer.
Make the final process the beginning, allow legal representation on lodging a claim and then see what a difference it makes! Our illegal immigrants get a better deal on their claims and a lawyer!
I hope you win Blue because everyone who has gone before you know what you are going through.
cheers
ozi2
How true is everything you have posted here ozi2.
Maybe we should jump in our little tinny and motor out into the ocean until our petrol runs out and then send out a mayday and of course not having any papers we might get some attention.
Sorry, not going to start a political argument here on boat people but, IF THE CAP FITS as they say.
Thanks Ian will do that.
Ken
My sentiments too Ken.
I'm sorry ma too hear of your treatment with this Govt.....I say this with tongue in cheeck We... )The Govt).... have too look after the new Boat and Air craft Que jumpers......And give them Homes and Dole cheques and Phone cards And discount Daily Planet vouchers to stop them seeking Virgins ( 72 I think the latest was.....My Father died In the ww11 for this too happen.Thank Goddness this site allows us to voice an opinion
You will triumph in the end, but they make it bloody hard. If you're prepared to weaken and fold, they'll let you, rather than support you.
Work with your Advocate. They have the best understanding of the "system", and can work it to your advantage if you stick to it and keep fighting.
It's important to stand strong, believe in your case with all your strength, and work with your Advocate. Have faith! Let him do the hard work for you, on your behalf. That's his job. Help him to do it. Don't let them demoralise you.
The system aims to keep your claim to a minimum. If you give in they'll let you.
Several of my mates have had to go through what you're going through now. In the end, the fight was worth it, but it' a hard, demoralising fight.
There will be a time when you'll wonder if you were ever in the services and fought for this country to defend them.
My thoughts are with you. You're entitled.
Yes Jimbo, we do live in a lucky country and are able to voice our opinion and that's what people like your father and my Uncles (killed in New Guinea) and Blue fought for as you have said.
Think this Government should get their priorities right
Thanks Christine you sure do have a way with words and they have all been relayed to Blue as have everyone elses too. Thank you all very very much. Your encouragement and shared experiences have gone a long way to help make this fight just that bit easier for us.
It is so good and indeed comforting to know that we are part of a great "family" and that we support each other as and when we can.
We have already met quite a few of you now in our travels and I sincerely hope that we can meet all the rest of you one day somewhere in this great land.
Thanks again everyone, much appreciated