Now, I decided to read through pages of stuff after doing the search thing on this great forum but no where does it state if the, for example and in my case I have a van that weighs in at 2.7t so 3t min is needed by the shackle, my shackles have 2t on them BUT is 3t needed per shackle or both combined.So,
I went off to an expert in the field that supplies these things here in Townsville. He stated that as I have a van 2.7t I only need a shackle rated at 2t as I have 2 chains and the 2 shakles total 4t.
I rang QLD roads people and they said the same thing. I then rang VIC roads in VIC and same thing.
I always thought in my old mind it would be combined and I am covered with my two × 2t rated shackles but not once anywhere have I read that.
I hope I haven't
Mike Harding said
06:13 PM Aug 4, 2017
Are the two chains/shackles in parallel? If so, then at any given time one chain/shackle could be tolerating the whole 2.7t load - which will be worse under snatch condition I suspect.
In reality that probably won't happen much and as 2t shackles probably won't break at much less than five or six tonne it probably doesn't matter - a lot of probablies in that sentence though.
Frankly I'm astonished that QLD and Vic roads people are prepared to give such advice - ask them to put it in writing, I bet they won't.
Shackles are not too expensive I'd be inclined to be using 4t ones if you can. Incidentally... what's the chain rated to?
iana said
06:14 PM Aug 4, 2017
Two posts in the techies section in less than a month, what's come over you.
My reading of the attached bulletin reads safety chain and shackle, singular. The size of the shackle relates directly to the size of the safety chain.
Sip!
I.E. the strength of a chain is that of its weakest link.
The 2 X 2 tonne shackles will not equal 4 tonne unless the chains that the shackles are attached to are exactly the same length and equally share the load.
If for example the towball snaps and the drawbar drops, if one chain is just one link shorter than the other, then that shorter chain will take all the load and will be under capacity!
But I'm probably wrong and I also can see worms.
Regards
PeterD said
07:28 PM Aug 4, 2017
There currently is no specifications for shackles for light trailers in any of the legislation. Previously VSB-01 stated that the shackles had to have a breaking strain of 1.5 times the total weight of the trailer. The breaking strain of a shackle is many times the the continuous rating of the shackle, I for get whether it is 5 or 6 times. If we use the figure is 5 times then a 1 tonne shackle can be used on a van with an ATM of 3.3 tonnes.
Sarge9 said
08:05 PM Aug 4, 2017
Doug you should be ashamed of stirring the pot: In fact, what possessed you to do it?????
PeterD is close to the mark ""There currently is no specifications for shackles for light trailers in any of the legislation."" you realise that someone will now come up with all sorts of regulations written for Shackles used in the lifting/towing/crane type industry.... Fit for purpose is the Victoria standard, and no-body actually knows anybody personally who has had a real fair/dinkum case made against them because of the shackles they were using... unless they were not using any.
From a safety point of view ""fit for Purpose"" means you and you manufacturer need to be satisfied that the shackle is appropriate.... Like everything else about your van....
Now, how about you ask a questions about reverse charging solar panels with a flat battery....
Sarge.
Dougwe said
08:06 PM Aug 4, 2017
iana wrote:
Two posts in the techies section in less than a month, what's come over you.
My reading of the attached bulletin reads safety chain and shackle, singular. The size of the shackle relates directly to the size of the safety chain.
Sip!
I.E. the strength of a chain is that of its weakest link.
Sip!
Maybe I should have talked about generators instead mate
Cruising Cruze said
08:49 PM Aug 4, 2017
Hi Doug
What brand you've got??
Cheers John
macka17 said
09:39 PM Aug 4, 2017
Hmmm.
Go into a lifting tackle supplier sometime.
and LOOK at the dia of Properly Rated. 2 ton shackles
and their pins.
They differ for lifting and tugging.
The pins are way thicker in Dia.
And NEVER use Stainless shackles.
Brittle when snatched.
Just make sure you use 10mm chain link on bigger vans.
Then. When they do get round to stating shackle sizes.
You'll get your pins through the links. Maybe.
PS my 2 ton rated wouldn't.....
Oh. Ex Crane, dozer, etc driver.
Used lotsa chains in my life.
and spliced lotsa wire ope ropes too.
KevinC said
08:00 AM Aug 5, 2017
Those folk who have certain HR style towbars fitted will know that the holes in the bar are too small to take a high rated shackle. So we have to use WLL 1.5T shackles just to make the connection. So maybe towbar manufacturers know more than the average blokes.
-- Edited by KevinC on Saturday 5th of August 2017 08:12:13 AM
Crackles said
08:15 AM Aug 5, 2017
Went into Moree last week to get two 2 tonne rated / stamped shackles and was asked is the chain rated / stamped as well.
The engineering supply shop bloke seemed to think it was also required.
Cheers
Craig
SouthernComfort said
09:28 AM Aug 5, 2017
Why on earth mess around with shackles so close to (or even potentially under) the required rating? I only have 2t all up, but I'm using 3t shackles on each chain. I prefer a good margin and erase the doubt!
Dougwe said
12:35 PM Aug 5, 2017
Cruising Cruze wrote:
Hi Doug
What brand you've got??
Cheers John
I have a nice red one John that is from the Honda tribe.
I only ever use it around 2am cos everyone is asleep and wouldn't hear it.
Bill B said
04:57 PM Aug 5, 2017
PeterD wrote:
There currently is no specifications for shackles for light trailers in any of the legislation. Previously VSB-01 stated that the shackles had to have a breaking strain of 1.5 times the total weight of the trailer. The breaking strain of a shackle is many times the the continuous rating of the shackle, I for get whether it is 5 or 6 times. If we use the figure is 5 times then a 1 tonne shackle can be used on a van with an ATM of 3.3 tonnes.
It is 6 times Peter so long as it has a S rating.
Dougwe said
07:48 PM Aug 5, 2017
Mmmm, It's interesting how the so called expert and the authorities say both combined shackles but most here say it is per shackle.
If I understand Peter D correctly one rated 2t shackle alone would cover a 2.7t van so 2x2t well and truly covers it
macka17 said
05:13 AM Aug 6, 2017
8 (small vans) or 10mm link, on rated chains will cover 99%. 12mm serious rigs.
Both they and shackles are important.
Full Half link weld is good idea too Or through bolts and backing plates.
Any lifting suppliers will sell you the proper "rated" gear. and the range of Shackle types will make you blink too.
Plus. a Full on Snatch load.will put around 5 times or more.
a shackle\chain rated load figures.
Ratings are constant. Not snatch loads.
I use 2.5 or 3 ton rated lifting shackles
(Had them from working days)
Also. another one.
Cross your chains. disconnect hitch then lower drawbar
to length of crossed chains.
Make sure the cup end DOES NOT. get to ground level.
The next trailer to flip over it's tongue. WON'T be the first.
Don't give it the chance.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 6th of August 2017 05:22:01 AM
Mike Harding said
07:36 AM Aug 6, 2017
KevinC wrote:
So maybe towbar manufacturers know more than the average blokes.
No, no, no, no....
Repeat after me until you fully understand it:
"Laymen posting to internet forums always have a deeper knowledge of technical matters than experts with qualifications and decades of experience".
macka17 said
10:46 AM Aug 6, 2017
Another little one used to be NEVER use a shackle of any model. Of lesser Dia than the chain links it connecting.
You ever seen a shackle, wire rope or sling give way under loads. The Physical damage is amazing. In a bad way.
Little piccy. Vernier set at 12.5 (1\2 in)
for reference.
No 1 = 2.5 ton Rated. Colour pins.
No 2 =3.5 ton Rated.
No 3 = 4 ton Rated
Yellow item below is a small Hammerlock I had kicking round in shed from old days.
Used them, sized to suit
to make up temporary 2 or 3 leg\anchor Moorings
when leaving yacht anywhere for a while.
Very efficient in Cyclones too..
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 6th of August 2017 11:32:21 AM
KevinC wrote: So maybe towbar manufacturers know more than the average blokes.
No, no, no, no.... Repeat after me until you fully understand it: "Laymen posting to internet forums always have a deeper knowledge of technical matters than experts with qualifications and decades of experience".
Hi Far be it from myself to introduce some facts into this informed discussion but here is a reference to look at ! My reading of it would be in the references to chains and standards the shackle would be considered part of the safety chain. So the shackle would have to conform to the standard for the chain stipulated in each size catergory as far as rating etc. Jaahn https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx I have extracted some paragraphs from it below:
Vehicle Standards Bulletin VSB1
Building small trailers, information for manufacturers and summarised construction requirements for trailers less than 4.5 tonnes aggregate trailer mass.
16.Drawbars, Safety Chains, Safety Chain Attachments and Couplings.
----------
trailers that do not exceed 2.5 tonnes ATM must have at least one safety chain complying with Australian Standard AS 4177.4-1994 or Australian Standard AS 4177.4-2004 Caravan and light trailer towing components Part 4: Safety chains up to 3500kg capacity, or be a safety cable with a certified load capacity of the same;
trailers over 2.5 tonnes and not exceed 3.5 tonnes ATM must have two safety chains of designation of 3500 kg complying with Australian Standard AS 4177.4-1994 or Australian Standard AS 4177.42004;
trailers over 3.5 tonnes ATM must have two safety chains made from steel of a minimum 800 MPa breaking stress that conforms to the mechanical properties of Grade T chain as specified in Australian Standard AS 2321-1979Short Link Chain for Lifting Purposes (non calibrated) or Australian Standard AS 2321-2006Short Link Chain for Lifting Purposes. Each chain must be sized such that the minimum breaking load exceeds the ATM.
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 6th of August 2017 04:00:11 PM
Big Mal said
05:12 PM Aug 6, 2017
To be brief the loading on the chains and shackles from a breakaway would be more than the van weighs, speed also comes into play so 2 ton shackles would be okay since neither the shackles, chain or draw bar would be rated for the forces that apply, plus if you put 3 or 4 ton shackles on you would have to adjust the eyes on the tow bar as they wouldn't fit, but like the breakaway brake set up they will only slow down the mess.
Basically use gear that has been stamped and drive safely.
PeterD said
05:23 PM Aug 6, 2017
Jaahn, there is no argument as to what chain is required. The problem is the required specification for the shackles, I see no reference to them there.
As I said earlier, I can't find any current legislation covering shackles, only superseded legislation regarding the breaking strength requirement to be 1.5 times the weight of the van. Iana's quoted Vehicle Safety and Standards Circular to Industry seems to be the closest thing to legislation and reflects the requirement of the earlier VSB-01 issue.
oldbloke said
05:54 PM Aug 6, 2017
It is my understanding that the requirements are that they must withstand 2.5 times the load before deforming.
So 1 t is good for 2.5t . I think 2 x 2t should be plenty.
iana said
07:52 PM Aug 6, 2017
PeterD, I think I came across a new amendment (some time ago), I haven't bothered to find it again, but the specification for shackles was down graded to shackles which met the specification, i.e. imported ones that may not be rated. I suspect it was pressure from our trailer and RV industry getting their way, and being able to import the cheaper unit.
Sorry that the attachment in my previous answer didn't open, I did have trouble getting it to load up.
And Dougwe I haven't mentioned gen------ors
-- Edited by iana on Sunday 6th of August 2017 07:54:14 PM
Jaahn said
08:06 PM Aug 6, 2017
PeterD wrote:
Jaahn, there is no argument as to what chain is required. The problem is the required specification for the shackles, I see no reference to them there.
As I said earlier, I can't find any current legislation covering shackles, only superseded legislation regarding the breaking strength requirement to be 1.5 times the weight of the van. Iana's quoted Vehicle Safety and Standards Circular to Industry seems to be the closest thing to legislation and reflects the requirement of the earlier VSB-01 issue.
Hi Peter
I must confess I overlooked Iana's referenced document. Interesting.
Yes there is no direct reference to shackles in the other document I referenced. However as I said I would consider them a part of the safety chain, if you choose to use one, so it must have the same load rating and conform to the same standards. WA appears to be showing a sensible lead in documenting what people want to know !
Shackles now seem to be "de regueur" for caravan towing, but previously other methods were used for the chain attachment for trailers. Caravan and 4WD retailers therefore supply cheap imported untested questionable shackles just the same as some other stuff they offer to the punters to buy. Now they also have yellow pins etc to mislead.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 6th of August 2017 08:24:17 PM
macka17 said
09:28 PM Aug 6, 2017
ALSO.
BOW shackles are more "flexible" in load adjustment than D.
Hence safer again. (inner bearing radius more circular). Chain slips on load rather than bind and twist shackle.
Blue and Green painted pins. (From memory) are lifting shackles
Long link chain. SH-t.
Rated long./ OK.
Rated short link we use for lifting seriously.
The next long link lifting chain I see with "stretched" links.
Won't be the first. When you near dozers and excavators.
Don't mix lifting and towing chain\shackles.
The towing shackles "Normally" have bigger dia pins than rated Lifting.
To absorb the extra loading. snatching and twisting.
Towing chains normally Long Link.Rated. Or rubbish chains that stretch easy.
Lifting chains (specially 2\3\4 leggers) are short link rated.
I'm a long time out of it now (lifting) so memory a little cloudy.
Just do everybody a favour. and use only Rated shackles\Chain.
Welded onto backing plates preferably.
Plus next size UP on recommended dia. = extra safety for ALL.
Malc0lm said
01:18 PM Aug 7, 2017
So a number say no regulations, perhaps just need to look in the correct place.
See link attached from the Feds that is current in the remade VSB1 and state requirements (Tas).
The document you have referred us to is just a circular and not legislation. What is this remade VSB1 you are talking about.
Bill B said
03:18 PM Aug 7, 2017
Go to Qld Transport site ( https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Loads-and-towing/Safe-towing.aspx ) and download the safe towing guide and all is explained on page 5.
For a van with an ATM of 3,500 kgs a 10mm S Rated shackle is all that is legally required.
macka17 said
01:43 AM Aug 8, 2017
Here's an example of some sizes.Example of sizes.
didn't add Stainless. they not a good idea towing.
Left is Rated and Tested WLL 2t.
Next one R+ T WLL 3.2 ton
Next one notice it's size. Stamped WLL 1.1t But not tested.
(Cheap Galv shackle.)
Last one on Prev post.
is a Bow Shackle. WLL 4.7t Grade S.
with lock nut \split pin system.
Used for Basically, mooring rods opes. and fixtures.
Any van over 2 ton.
I'd be using my WLL 3.2 X2, as a min.
My sub 2 ton van has the 2 ton ones.
-- Edited by macka17 on Tuesday 8th of August 2017 01:44:50 AM
Go to Qld Transport site ( https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Loads-and-towing/Safe-towing.aspx ) and download the safe towing guide and all is explained on page 5.
For a van with an ATM of 3,500 kgs a 10mm S Rated shackle is all that is legally required.
Note:
Table-1 Selection of D Shackle (Guide only)
Again a good guide but not spelt out in the legislation.
Sorry all but couldn't help myself.
Now, I decided to read through pages of stuff after doing the search thing on this great forum but no where does it state if the, for example and in my case I have a van that weighs in at 2.7t so 3t min is needed by the shackle, my shackles have 2t on them BUT is 3t needed per shackle or both combined.So,
I went off to an expert in the field that supplies these things here in Townsville. He stated that as I have a van 2.7t I only need a shackle rated at 2t as I have 2 chains and the 2 shakles total 4t.
I rang QLD roads people and they said the same thing. I then rang VIC roads in VIC and same thing.
I always thought in my old mind it would be combined and I am covered with my two × 2t rated shackles but not once anywhere have I read that.
I hope I haven't
Are the two chains/shackles in parallel? If so, then at any given time one chain/shackle could be tolerating the whole 2.7t load - which will be worse under snatch condition I suspect.
In reality that probably won't happen much and as 2t shackles probably won't break at much less than five or six tonne it probably doesn't matter - a lot of probablies in that sentence though.
Frankly I'm astonished that QLD and Vic roads people are prepared to give such advice - ask them to put it in writing, I bet they won't.
Shackles are not too expensive I'd be inclined to be using 4t ones if you can. Incidentally... what's the chain rated to?
Two posts in the techies section in less than a month, what's come over you.
My reading of the attached bulletin reads safety chain and shackle, singular. The size of the shackle relates directly to the size of the safety chain.
Sip!
I.E. the strength of a chain is that of its weakest link.
Sip!
If for example the towball snaps and the drawbar drops, if one chain is just one link shorter than the other, then that shorter chain will take all the load and will be under capacity!
But I'm probably wrong and I also can see worms.
Regards
PeterD is close to the mark ""There currently is no specifications for shackles for light trailers in any of the legislation."" you realise that someone will now come up with all sorts of regulations written for Shackles used in the lifting/towing/crane type industry.... Fit for purpose is the Victoria standard, and no-body actually knows anybody personally who has had a real fair/dinkum case made against them because of the shackles they were using... unless they were not using any.
From a safety point of view ""fit for Purpose"" means you and you manufacturer need to be satisfied that the shackle is appropriate.... Like everything else about your van....
Now, how about you ask a questions about reverse charging solar panels with a flat battery....
Sarge.
Maybe I should have talked about generators instead mate
What brand you've got??
Cheers John
Go into a lifting tackle supplier sometime.
and LOOK at the dia of Properly Rated. 2 ton shackles
and their pins.
They differ for lifting and tugging.
The pins are way thicker in Dia.
And NEVER use Stainless shackles.
Brittle when snatched.
Just make sure you use 10mm chain link on bigger vans.
Then. When they do get round to stating shackle sizes.
You'll get your pins through the links. Maybe.
PS my 2 ton rated wouldn't.....
Oh. Ex Crane, dozer, etc driver.
Used lotsa chains in my life.
and spliced lotsa wire
ope ropes too.
Those folk who have certain HR style towbars fitted will know that the holes in the bar are too small to take a high rated shackle. So we have to use WLL 1.5T shackles just to make the connection. So maybe towbar manufacturers know more than the average blokes.
-- Edited by KevinC on Saturday 5th of August 2017 08:12:13 AM
The engineering supply shop bloke seemed to think it was also required.
Cheers
Craig
I have a nice red one John that is from the Honda tribe.
I only ever use it around 2am cos everyone is asleep and wouldn't hear it.
It is 6 times Peter so long as it has a S rating.
Mmmm, It's interesting how the so called expert and the authorities say both combined shackles but most here say it is per shackle.
If I understand Peter D correctly one rated 2t shackle alone would cover a 2.7t van
so 2x2t well and truly covers it 
8 (small vans) or 10mm link, on rated chains will cover 99%.
12mm serious rigs.
Both they and shackles are important.
Full Half link weld is good idea too
Or through bolts and backing plates.
Any lifting suppliers will sell you the proper "rated" gear.
and the range of Shackle types will make you blink too.
Plus. a Full on Snatch load.will put around 5 times or more.
a shackle\chain rated load figures.
Ratings are constant. Not snatch loads.
I use 2.5 or 3 ton rated lifting shackles
(Had them from working days)
Also. another one.
Cross your chains. disconnect hitch then lower drawbar
to length of crossed chains.
Make sure the cup end DOES NOT. get to ground level.
The next trailer to flip over it's tongue. WON'T be the first.
Don't give it the chance.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 6th of August 2017 05:22:01 AM
No, no, no, no....
Repeat after me until you fully understand it:
"Laymen posting to internet forums always have a deeper knowledge of technical matters than experts with qualifications and decades of experience".
Another little one used to be NEVER use a shackle of any model.
Of lesser Dia than the chain links it connecting.
You ever seen a shackle, wire rope or sling
give way under loads.
The Physical damage is amazing.
In a bad way.
Little piccy. Vernier set at 12.5 (1\2 in)
for reference.
No 1 = 2.5 ton Rated. Colour pins.
No 2 =3.5 ton Rated.
No 3 = 4 ton Rated
Yellow item below is a small Hammerlock I had kicking round in shed from old days.
Used them, sized to suit
to make up temporary 2 or 3 leg\anchor Moorings
when leaving yacht anywhere for a while.
Very efficient in Cyclones too..
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 6th of August 2017 11:32:21 AM
Hi
Far be it from myself to introduce some facts into this informed discussion but here is a reference to look at ! My reading of it would be in the references to chains and standards the shackle would be considered part of the safety chain. So the shackle would have to conform to the standard for the chain stipulated in each size catergory as far as rating etc.
Jaahn
https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx
I have extracted some paragraphs from it below:
Vehicle Standards Bulletin VSB1
Building small trailers, information for manufacturers and summarised construction requirements for trailers less than 4.5 tonnes aggregate trailer mass.
16. Drawbars, Safety Chains, Safety Chain Attachments and Couplings.
----------
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 6th of August 2017 04:00:11 PM
Basically use gear that has been stamped and drive safely.
As I said earlier, I can't find any current legislation covering shackles, only superseded legislation regarding the breaking strength requirement to be 1.5 times the weight of the van. Iana's quoted Vehicle Safety and Standards Circular to Industry seems to be the closest thing to legislation and reflects the requirement of the earlier VSB-01 issue.
So 1 t is good for 2.5t . I think 2 x 2t should be plenty.
PeterD, I think I came across a new amendment (some time ago), I haven't bothered to find it again, but the specification for shackles was down graded to shackles which met the specification, i.e. imported ones that may not be rated. I suspect it was pressure from our trailer and RV industry getting their way, and being able to import the cheaper unit.
Sorry that the attachment in my previous answer didn't open, I did have trouble getting it to load up.
And Dougwe I haven't mentioned gen------ors
-- Edited by iana on Sunday 6th of August 2017 07:54:14 PM
Hi Peter
I must confess I overlooked Iana's referenced document. Interesting.
Yes there is no direct reference to shackles in the other document I referenced. However as I said I would consider them a part of the safety chain, if you choose to use one, so it must have the same load rating and conform to the same standards. WA appears to be showing a sensible lead in documenting what people want to know !
Shackles now seem to be "de regueur" for caravan towing, but previously other methods were used for the chain attachment for trailers. Caravan and 4WD retailers therefore supply cheap imported untested questionable shackles just the same as some other stuff they offer to the punters to buy. Now they also have yellow pins etc to mislead.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 6th of August 2017 08:24:17 PM
BOW shackles are more "flexible" in load adjustment than D.
Hence safer again. (inner bearing radius more circular). Chain slips on load rather than bind and twist shackle.
Blue and Green painted pins. (From memory) are lifting shackles
Long link chain. SH-t.
Rated long./ OK.
Rated short link we use for lifting seriously.
The next long link lifting chain I see with "stretched" links.
Won't be the first. When you near dozers and excavators.
Don't mix lifting and towing chain\shackles.
The towing shackles "Normally" have bigger dia pins than rated Lifting.
To absorb the extra loading. snatching and twisting.
Towing chains normally Long Link.Rated. Or rubbish chains that stretch easy.
Lifting chains (specially 2\3\4 leggers) are short link rated.
I'm a long time out of it now (lifting) so memory a little cloudy.
Just do everybody a favour. and use only Rated shackles\Chain.
Welded onto backing plates preferably.
Plus next size UP on recommended dia. = extra safety for ALL.
So a number say no regulations, perhaps just need to look in the correct place.
See link attached from the Feds that is current in the remade VSB1 and state requirements (Tas).
https://infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/administrators_circulars/index.aspx
https://infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/administrators_circulars/files/0-1-3-1.pdf
Cheers
Mal
For a van with an ATM of 3,500 kgs a 10mm S Rated shackle is all that is legally required.
Here's an example of some sizes.Example of sizes.
didn't add Stainless. they not a good idea towing.
Left is Rated and Tested WLL 2t.
Next one R+ T WLL 3.2 ton
Next one notice it's size. Stamped WLL 1.1t But not tested.
(Cheap Galv shackle.)
Last one on Prev post.
is a Bow Shackle. WLL 4.7t Grade S.
with lock nut \split pin system.
Used for Basically, mooring rods
opes. and fixtures.
Any van over 2 ton.
I'd be using my WLL 3.2 X2, as a min.
My sub 2 ton van has the 2 ton ones.
-- Edited by macka17 on Tuesday 8th of August 2017 01:44:50 AM
Note:
Again a good guide but not spelt out in the legislation.