My eyesight may not be whatit once was,but this van looks to be severely unbalanced? If I am not wrong,the rear overhang,or distance from rear axis to rear extremity of the van must be less than the distance from the rear axis to the front of the load area? (front of van body).Looks to me that this is not the case here? Cheers
you'd need to be very careful when loading this van
montie said
09:20 PM Jan 8, 2021
From a dimension perspective it looks like it's legal...just.
Measured from the centre of the axle group the front load area cannot legally exceed the rear load area.
Sorry I might need to explain further...too many Merlots, The rear overhang or load area, measured from the centre of the axle group, cannot legally exceed the front load area.
-- Edited by montie on Friday 8th of January 2021 09:26:40 PM
landy said
09:59 PM Jan 8, 2021
You may be right there Yobar. by putting a ruler on the screen probably not a very scientific way to do it the rear does appear to be longer.
erad said
11:03 PM Jan 8, 2021
My main comment with this rig would be regarding the ground clearance and the propensity to scrape the front and rear ends of the van when going over uneven ground. The approach and departure angles seem to be far too low for my liking.
One has to assume that the designers considered the weight distribution when laying out this van. I cannot see for sure where the kitchen ie fridge, stove etc are but it looks as if they are in the middle. The shower seems to be at the rear. Now, if the rear also houses the kitchen area, then this looks like it has a strong weight bias to the rear of the van - not good. The front looks like the bed area to me, and normally there isn't much weight there. Not knowing the design, I would prefer some more weight over the front section of the van to compensate for the long rear overhang.
KJB said
08:37 AM Jan 9, 2021
No good guessing ....just weigh it and measure it ....then you will know. (the rear half might be made from cardboard and the front from steel plate....)
I am sure it would be "legal" if it has been registered correctly but does not have to be the "ideal" set up to suit all people.
There are many vans of this style/configuration travelling in Europe generally towed by "family sedans " - and the Laws of Physics operate the same in Europe as in Australia......
yobarr said
09:08 AM Jan 9, 2021
Seems to be some confusion.My reference was to the fact that the length of the body behind the rear axis,or midpoint between the two axles,appears to be greater than is the length of the body from that rear axis,to the front of the BODY...not towbar.As Robert has stated,the positioning of any appliances would be critical,but apart from looking stupid,if that van is light enough to be towed by that car,a decent gust of wind is likely to unsettle it,with catastrophic results.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 9th of January 2021 10:31:55 AM
My main comment with this rig would be regarding the ground clearance and the propensity to scrape the front and rear ends of the van when going over uneven ground. The approach and departure angles seem to be far too low for my liking.
My Jayco would have a slightly higher ground clearence, and optical illusion of location of the axle group.
As that van and mine are closer to the ground your not towing a 3 story building lke the majority you see on the road today, ours offer a distinct advantage in that we can acheive great fuel economy, and stability. You would be surprised how easy it is to get a good balance when distributing weight within the van, as for the departure and approach angles if you a black top traveller with good driving skills a spoon drain or steep servo entry present no issues.
Teo said
09:23 AM Jan 9, 2021
Montie. I have to ask you a question about your comment.
What merlot were you drinking?
montie said
09:27 AM Jan 9, 2021
It looks a European van which is light and low. Strictly black top only.
Road conditions in Europe are different to Aus.
It looks like it is legal with the rear load space just equal to the front load space. As a matter of interest any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space.
It would have been measured before registration.
montie said
09:33 AM Jan 9, 2021
Teo wrote:
Montie. I have to ask you a question about your comment.
What merlot were you drinking?
A very nice bottle of Penfolds Kanunga Hill.
erad said
09:57 AM Jan 9, 2021
I agree with Yobarr on his points about weight distribution etc, but the comments apply to a person who recognises that there MAY be a problem with instability and then compensates for it. Sadly, there are too many people out there who either don't understand the potential problems or choose to ignore the consequences until the brown stuff hits the whirring blades. We live in a Nanny society - we have speed limits, laws regarding using phones whole driving etc to 'protect the masses from themselves' yet thusfar the laws don't consider that the rig coming towards you may be either very unstable or being driven by a fully licensed but totally incapable driver. Much as I hate further regulation, I believe that a person should be licensed to tow anything over a 8 x 5 box trailer, or maybe any trailer which by law requires brakes. Part of the licensing process should include a training course which covers both management of the rig and understanding the dynamics of such systems as well.
Regarding caravan design, you cannot rely on the integrity of caravan designers to provide a safe product. And indeed, what may be 'safe' when being towed by Vehicle A could be totally unsafe when being towed by Vehicle B, and the caravan manufacturer certainly has no control over that situation. As far as I am aware, there is no standard to which a caravan should be built, so the manufacturers just do what will sell. Even if there was a standard, they probably wouldn't comply fully with it anyway. In my lifetime, I have bought 2 new caravans, and each of them had major faults. My last new van (Jayco) was attrocious. The compliance plate seriously understates the loads. We ordered an air conditioner and a specially shortened drawbar. The A/C is mounted on the front corner of the van and its position and I am certain that the weight have not been included in the compliance plate weights. I tow the van with a Pajero, and the towing weight is far below the car's legal capacity, but if it was being towed by something smaller, I would be worried about the weighbridge police. One major plus in my case is that we have a very heavy towball loading, and this results in a very stable rig for towing purposes. I have at times deliberately tried to unsettle the rig when driving to verify that it is still OK, and every time, it immediately dampens out the sway so I am confident that my wife can drive the rig safely.
The axle was mounted nearly 25 mm off centre (Great quality control Jayco), resulting in a bent chassis where the U bolt hit the chassis in at least on large pothole. The left brake electrics were not even connected when we took delivery of the van, but that is a quality control issue not a design fault. I re-routed the wiring to the brakes though because I could see the cabling being ripped off at some stage later on. Also, being a poptop, the whole rig doesn't get buffeted by oncoming B Doubles etc, but seeing the latest round of juggernauts being towed by vehicles with near nominal towing capacity, it worries me greatly. Nearly all the photos you see of wrecked caravans are late model vans being towed by 4WDs or utes and they are huge rigs.
Regarding the length and ground clearance, I had to put rollers under the rear bumper mounts on my van, and reverse the rear stabilisers because they continually dragged on the ground when crossing our driveway but also when entering or exiting service stations or large carparks, yet the approach and departure angles on my van are far less that those in the photo above. My van sits level when being towed by the Pajero. At least that van in the photo would offer better fuel consumption than the juggernauts with 500 + mm ground clearance that you see out on the road these days. I can only hope that they have been built heavy so that they are stable. Yes - the lower ground clearance would assist in crosswind stability when towing.
yobarr said
10:06 AM Jan 9, 2021
montie wrote:
It looks a European van which is light and low. Strictly black top only. Road conditions in Europe are different to Aus.
It looks like it is legal with the rear load space just equal to the front load space. As a matter of interest any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space. It would have been measured before registration.
"...any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space".That's interesting,Montie.Would a rack for gas bottles,or a bolted down toolbox be acceptable,or would we need an actual storage 'tray',do you think? I'm not querying your assertions,but I am definitely interested to learn more.Cheers
Bill B said
10:12 AM Jan 9, 2021
montie wrote:
It looks a European van which is light and low. Strictly black top only.
Almost certain it is a Geist which were imported in the early 2000's to about 2010
yobarr said
10:44 AM Jan 9, 2021
Similar markings etc? If so,ithe subject van has a very low ATM.Last imported 2008,when importer went bust.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 9th of January 2021 10:51:59 AM
Measure from the centre of the axle group to rear most point which can not be more then the forward measurement to the front of the caravan trailer, the towball attachment.
yobarr said
01:15 PM Jan 9, 2021
Radar wrote:
I would say that caravan is legal.
Measure from the centre of the axle group to rear most point which can not be more then the forward measurement to the front of the caravan trailer, the towball attachment.
Hi Ralph....that is incorrect.The rear overhang must not exceed the length of the front loading space,or 3.7 metres,whicher is the lesser. Montie advises that "any fixed storage space on the front drawbar is included in the front load space",and I am trying to determine if a permanently mounted toolbox,or a rack for gas bottles would be able to be included in this "front load space". Even so,the front load space certainly does not extend to the towball attachment.The measurement from the rear axis (midpoint of axle group) to the extreme front of a vehicle,or its load, is referred to as the "forward length",and must not exceed 8.5 metres on a pig trailer.Hope this helps? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 10th of January 2021 10:07:36 AM
A number of the European van's are like this. I have commented to my wife on a number of occasions that I am not keen on the rather forward positioning of their axle group. The strange thing is is that they seem to tow quite well so their weight balance must be reasonable even if it looks a bit doubtful.
Eaglemax said
09:48 PM Jan 9, 2021
When I built my caravan I built it 240mm longer at the front than the back. However looks are deceiving, the rear always looks longer...but isn't
Measure from the centre of the axle group to rear most point which can not be more then the forward measurement to the front of the caravan trailer, the towball attachment.
Hi Ralph....that is incorrect,I believe.The rear overhang must not exceed the length of the front loading space,or 3.7 metres,whicher is the lesser. Montie advises that "any fixed storage space on the front drawbar is included in the front load space",and I am trying to determine if a permanently mounted toolbox,or a rack for gas bottles would be able to be included in this "front load space". Even so,the front load space certainly does not extend to the towball attachment.The measurement from the rear axis (midpoint of axle group) to the extreme front of a vehicle,or its load, is referred to as the "forward length",and must not exceed 8.5 metres on a pig trailer.Hope this helps?
I understand what I need, sometimes have trouble making other people understand can be trying.
That measurement centre to front of load means duck over.
The only measure on a pig style trailer is from the centre of axle/axle group to the either ends that count for law.
But there is a but until you go to bend it as in turning.
Once again that pig style caravan is legal and probably tows well because how low it sits on the road, my thoughts only.
montie said
07:06 AM Jan 10, 2021
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
It looks a European van which is light and low. Strictly black top only. Road conditions in Europe are different to Aus.
It looks like it is legal with the rear load space just equal to the front load space. As a matter of interest any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space. It would have been measured before registration.
"...any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space".That's interesting,Montie.Would a rack for gas bottles,or a bolted down toolbox be acceptable,or would we need an actual storage 'tray',do you think? I'm not querying your assertions,but I am definitely interested to learn more.Cheers
We clarified this with TMR as we do our own registrations. Any fixed unremovable storage area is included but not gas obviously because they are removable. A welded storage box qualifies. We do not measure the internal floor length rather the external extremities.
yobarr said
10:04 AM Jan 10, 2021
montie wrote:
yobarr wrote:
montie wrote:
It looks a European van which is light and low. Strictly black top only. Road conditions in Europe are different to Aus.
It looks like it is legal with the rear load space just equal to the front load space. As a matter of interest any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space. It would have been measured before registration.
"...any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space".That's interesting,Montie.Would a rack for gas bottles,or a bolted down toolbox be acceptable,or would we need an actual storage 'tray',do you think? I'm not querying your assertions,but I am definitely interested to learn more.Cheers
We clarified this with TMR as we do our own registrations. Any fixed unremovable storage area is included but not gas obviously because they are removable. A welded storage box qualifies. We do not measure the internal floor length rather the external extremities.
Hi Montie....thanks for clarifying what is law.Unfortunately,another poster seems well confused with his interpretation,and fails to understand the required measurements that I provided in a previous post,and highlighted with a red arrow.The only thing to remember with forward length,or distance from rear axis to end of towbar,is that this must not exceed 8.5 metres on a PIG trailer. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 10th of January 2021 10:06:02 AM
Being in research and development in mechanical engineering for over 25 years I tended to design things that looked right, if it didn't look right usually it wasn't right.
Just looking at this van it does not look right. Too low, axle set not far enough rearward. Even equally balanced still does not sit right with me.
Look at videos of trucks and trailer in Europe and the USA and see the amount overhang behind the rear wheels and see them turn tight corners, some videos I have seen where the end of the trailer or truck describe a large arc outside the rear wheel track, then they catch on parked cars and fences etc. This caravan will have these issues, I would be careful turning tight corners in close quarters.
In Australia most trucks and semi trailers I have seen have the rear wheel set almost at the rear of the body and this poses no problem with the arc of the body causing any damage.
These dimensions are prescribed in design rules.
Look at some cars and buildings and machinery etc, if it doesn't look right usually it is not popular and mostly have some unseen issues.
Eaglemax said
06:22 PM Jan 25, 2021
oxleigh wrote:
Being in research and development in mechanical engineering for over 25 years I tended to design things that looked right, if it didn't look right usually it wasn't right. Just looking at this van it does not look right. Too low, axle set not far enough rearward. Even equally balanced still does not sit right with me. Look at videos of trucks and trailer in Europe and the USA and see the amount overhang behind the rear wheels and see them turn tight corners, some videos I have seen where the end of the trailer or truck describe a large arc outside the rear wheel track, then they catch on parked cars and fences etc. This caravan will have these issues, I would be careful turning tight corners in close quarters. In Australia most trucks and semi trailers I have seen have the rear wheel set almost at the rear of the body and this poses no problem with the arc of the body causing any damage. These dimensions are prescribed in design rules. Look at some cars and buildings and machinery etc, if it doesn't look right usually it is not popular and mostly have some unseen issues.
Hi oxleigh
See my previous post.
Also, how do you think it got registered if it was legal (legal meaning what has been well told by Monte).
So my previous post stated that, like my home build (axle 240mm rear of centre of load area) looks can be deceiving as the rear overhang looks longer.
How can anyone let alone a professional like yourself conclude it is unsafe...? And unsafe because it "Doesn't look right".
As another example of judgemental busybodies I've lost count of the number of older caravanners out there that make rash statements. In my case "that van would be too heavy for that old car" and "that axle is too far forward".
The van pictured was built by me. Ultra lightweight at 730kg tare 998kg atm full ensuite blah blah. The car fools most "experts" ("old")as it's a 2001 kit car tare 1240kg. V6 Holden engine full chassis strengthened and engineered to tow 1000kg. The van axle was positioned carefully so as not to exceed the 85kg towball limit and make the van easy to achieve that 85kg downforce with loaded items distributed.
So unless I'm provided information relevant to making a sound judgement I presume innocence until found guilty. I'd never judge because "it doesn't look right."
Tony.
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Monday 25th of January 2021 06:23:33 PM
Being in research and development in mechanical engineering for over 25 years I tended to design things that looked right, if it didn't look right usually it wasn't right. Just looking at this van it does not look right. Too low, axle set not far enough rearward. Even equally balanced still does not sit right with me. Look at videos of trucks and trailer in Europe and the USA and see the amount overhang behind the rear wheels and see them turn tight corners, some videos I have seen where the end of the trailer or truck describe a large arc outside the rear wheel track, then they catch on parked cars and fences etc. This caravan will have these issues, I would be careful turning tight corners in close quarters. In Australia most trucks and semi trailers I have seen have the rear wheel set almost at the rear of the body and this poses no problem with the arc of the body causing any damage. These dimensions are prescribed in design rules. Look at some cars and buildings and machinery etc, if it doesn't look right usually it is not popular and mostly have some unseen issues.
Hi oxleigh
See my previous post.Also, how do you think it got registered if it was legal (legal meaning what has been well told by Monte).So my previous post stated that, like my home build (axle 240mm rear of centre of load area) looks can be deceiving (deceptive)as the rear overhang looks longer.How can anyone let alone a professional like yourself(you) conclude it is unsafe...? And unsafe because it "Doesn't look right".As another example of judgemental busybodies I've lost count of the number of older caravanners out there that make rash statements. In my case "that van would be too heavy for that old car" and "that axle is too far forward".
The van pictured was built by me. Ultra lightweight at 730kg tare 998kg atm full ensuite blah blah. The car fools most "experts" ("old")as it's a 2001 kit car tare 1240kg. V6 Holden engine full chassis strengthened and engineered to tow 1000kg. The van axle was positioned carefully so as not to exceed the 85kg towball limit and make the van easy to achieve that 85kg downforce with loaded items distributed.So unless I'm provided information relevant to making a sound judgement I presume innocence until found guilty. I'd never judge because "it doesn't look right."
Tony.-- Edited by Eaglemax on Monday 25th of January 2021 06:23:33 PM
The way that that it got registered,as far as I can determine,is that the flat plate in front of the end of the actual caravan body was included in the "front loading space",thus making this obviously unbalanced van "legal".There is no way known that the length of the body in front of the rear axis exceeds the rear overhang,or distance from rear axis to rear extremity.Always there is somebody trying to manipulate the well-intentioned rules in an effort. to make their unsafe setups "legal".Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 25th of January 2021 06:59:28 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 25th of January 2021 07:00:01 PM
I suspect Yobarr, that it's possible the manufacturer included load space on the drawbar to include it to m asked it legal...but legal it would be.
Unless a crusade led by the likes of yourself is levelled at the authorities that make the rules to amend them then people will judge these set ups harshly even though they're legal. Where's the proof it is less safe?
There's nothing humiliating about being legal until it no longer is.
Tony
yobarr said
08:19 AM Jan 26, 2021
Eaglemax wrote:
I suspect Yobarr, that it's possible the manufacturer included load space on the drawbar to include it to m asked it legal...but legal it would be. Unless a crusade led by the likes of yourself is levelled at the authorities that make the rules to amend them then people will judge these set ups harshly even though they're legal. Where's the proof it is less safe? There's nothing humiliating about being legal until it no longer is. Tony
"Where's the proof it's less safe?"you ask. May I suggest that you type into your browser "effects of yaw",or something similar,read up on yaw,take the time to absorb supplied information,again look at the original picture,and it now all should become clear. Cheers
Eaglemax said
08:44 AM Jan 26, 2021
I've built caravans Yobarr, studied yaw and all sorts of necessary research.
Can I suggest you Google "humility?"
kesa32 said
09:29 AM Jan 26, 2021
Hi guys , our Bailey is similar re length and height to that first one pictured
We did a half lap a couple of years ago and no issues re approach angles etc in servos etc ,, except one which l gave a miss, short and steep
You have to pick your marks when it came to gravel roads and use common sense
It handles well on the black top and sure , wind gusts side on can effect speed and stability to a certain degree , same as all vans l guess...the low centre of gravity assists here
Ours has an upgraded ATM of 1800kg , kitchens in the centre , dining forward of that and full ensuite at rear
Spare is located underneath , rear of axles
We averaged 13.5 litres per 100 ks over 20,000k sitting on a bit bit below highway limits , sometimes on the limit
It's great for what we could afford and tows extremely well , of course not for everyone but works for us
As already mentioned here , caravans have to be loaded pretty right of else it's a disaster waiting to happen , we shudder seeing some of the shocking setups some people tow around
Safe travels , cheers
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:17 AM Jan 26, 2021
Eaglemax wrote:
I've built caravans Yobarr, studied yaw and all sorts of necessary research. Can I suggest you Google "humility?"
What an arrogant and unnecessary response.
Since you claim to know all the answers, maybe you can tell me about this?
I towed this 10m long trailer all over SE Australia, mostly behind a Cortina.
My eyesight may not be what it once was,but this van looks to be severely unbalanced? If I am not wrong,the rear overhang,or distance from rear axis to rear extremity of the van must be less than the distance from the rear axis to the front of the load area? (front of van body).Looks to me that this is not the case here? Cheers
From a dimension perspective it looks like it's legal...just.
Measured from the centre of the axle group the front load area cannot legally exceed the rear load area.
Sorry I might need to explain further...too many Merlots, The rear overhang or load area, measured from the centre of the axle group, cannot legally exceed the front load area.
-- Edited by montie on Friday 8th of January 2021 09:26:40 PM
One has to assume that the designers considered the weight distribution when laying out this van. I cannot see for sure where the kitchen ie fridge, stove etc are but it looks as if they are in the middle. The shower seems to be at the rear. Now, if the rear also houses the kitchen area, then this looks like it has a strong weight bias to the rear of the van - not good. The front looks like the bed area to me, and normally there isn't much weight there. Not knowing the design, I would prefer some more weight over the front section of the van to compensate for the long rear overhang.
No good guessing ....just weigh it and measure it ....then you will know. (the rear half might be made from cardboard and the front from steel plate....)
I am sure it would be "legal" if it has been registered correctly but does not have to be the "ideal" set up to suit all people.
There are many vans of this style/configuration travelling in Europe generally towed by "family sedans " - and the Laws of Physics operate the same in Europe as in Australia......
Seems to be some confusion.My reference was to the fact that the length of the body behind the rear axis,or midpoint between the two axles,appears to be greater than is the length of the body from that rear axis,to the front of the BODY...not towbar.As Robert has stated,the positioning of any appliances would be critical,but apart from looking stupid,if that van is light enough to be towed by that car,a decent gust of wind is likely to unsettle it,with catastrophic results.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 9th of January 2021 10:31:55 AM
My Jayco would have a slightly higher ground clearence, and optical illusion of location of the axle group.
As that van and mine are closer to the ground your not towing a 3 story building lke the majority you see on the road today, ours offer a distinct advantage in that we can acheive great fuel economy, and stability. You would be surprised how easy it is to get a good balance when distributing weight within the van, as for the departure and approach angles if you a black top traveller with good driving skills a spoon drain or steep servo entry present no issues.
What merlot were you drinking?
Road conditions in Europe are different to Aus.
It looks like it is legal with the rear load space just equal to the front load space. As a matter of interest any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space.
It would have been measured before registration.
A very nice bottle of Penfolds Kanunga Hill.
Regarding caravan design, you cannot rely on the integrity of caravan designers to provide a safe product. And indeed, what may be 'safe' when being towed by Vehicle A could be totally unsafe when being towed by Vehicle B, and the caravan manufacturer certainly has no control over that situation. As far as I am aware, there is no standard to which a caravan should be built, so the manufacturers just do what will sell. Even if there was a standard, they probably wouldn't comply fully with it anyway. In my lifetime, I have bought 2 new caravans, and each of them had major faults. My last new van (Jayco) was attrocious. The compliance plate seriously understates the loads. We ordered an air conditioner and a specially shortened drawbar. The A/C is mounted on the front corner of the van and its position and I am certain that the weight have not been included in the compliance plate weights. I tow the van with a Pajero, and the towing weight is far below the car's legal capacity, but if it was being towed by something smaller, I would be worried about the weighbridge police. One major plus in my case is that we have a very heavy towball loading, and this results in a very stable rig for towing purposes. I have at times deliberately tried to unsettle the rig when driving to verify that it is still OK, and every time, it immediately dampens out the sway so I am confident that my wife can drive the rig safely.
The axle was mounted nearly 25 mm off centre (Great quality control Jayco), resulting in a bent chassis where the U bolt hit the chassis in at least on large pothole. The left brake electrics were not even connected when we took delivery of the van, but that is a quality control issue not a design fault. I re-routed the wiring to the brakes though because I could see the cabling being ripped off at some stage later on. Also, being a poptop, the whole rig doesn't get buffeted by oncoming B Doubles etc, but seeing the latest round of juggernauts being towed by vehicles with near nominal towing capacity, it worries me greatly. Nearly all the photos you see of wrecked caravans are late model vans being towed by 4WDs or utes and they are huge rigs.
Regarding the length and ground clearance, I had to put rollers under the rear bumper mounts on my van, and reverse the rear stabilisers because they continually dragged on the ground when crossing our driveway but also when entering or exiting service stations or large carparks, yet the approach and departure angles on my van are far less that those in the photo above. My van sits level when being towed by the Pajero. At least that van in the photo would offer better fuel consumption than the juggernauts with 500 + mm ground clearance that you see out on the road these days. I can only hope that they have been built heavy so that they are stable. Yes - the lower ground clearance would assist in crosswind stability when towing.
"...any fixed storage area on the front drawbar is included in the front load space".That's interesting,Montie.Would a rack for gas bottles,or a bolted down toolbox be acceptable,or would we need an actual storage 'tray',do you think? I'm not querying your assertions,but I am definitely interested to learn more.Cheers
Almost certain it is a Geist which were imported in the early 2000's to about 2010
Similar markings etc? If so,ithe subject van has a very low ATM.Last imported 2008,when importer went bust.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 9th of January 2021 10:51:59 AM
I would say that caravan is legal.
Measure from the centre of the axle group to rear most point which can not be more then the forward measurement to the front of the caravan trailer, the towball attachment.
Hi Ralph....that is incorrect.The rear overhang must not exceed the length of the front loading space,or 3.7 metres,whicher is the lesser. Montie advises that "any fixed storage space on the front drawbar is included in the front load space",and I am trying to determine if a permanently mounted toolbox,or a rack for gas bottles would be able to be included in this "front load space". Even so,the front load space certainly does not extend to the towball attachment.The measurement from the rear axis (midpoint of axle group) to the extreme front of a vehicle,or its load, is referred to as the "forward length",and must not exceed 8.5 metres on a pig trailer.Hope this helps? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 10th of January 2021 10:07:36 AM
When I built my caravan I built it 240mm longer at the front than the back. However looks are deceiving, the rear always looks longer...but isn't
Tony
I understand what I need, sometimes have trouble making other people understand can be trying.
That measurement centre to front of load means duck over.
The only measure on a pig style trailer is from the centre of axle/axle group to the either ends that count for law.
But there is a but until you go to bend it as in turning.
Once again that pig style caravan is legal and probably tows well because how low it sits on the road, my thoughts only.
We clarified this with TMR as we do our own registrations. Any fixed unremovable storage area is included but not gas obviously because they are removable. A welded storage box qualifies. We do not measure the internal floor length rather the external extremities.
Hi Montie....thanks for clarifying what is law.Unfortunately,another poster seems well confused with his interpretation,and fails to understand the required measurements that I provided in a previous post,and highlighted with a red arrow.The only thing to remember with forward length,or distance from rear axis to end of towbar,is that this must not exceed 8.5 metres on a PIG trailer. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 10th of January 2021 10:06:02 AM
Just looking at this van it does not look right. Too low, axle set not far enough rearward. Even equally balanced still does not sit right with me.
Look at videos of trucks and trailer in Europe and the USA and see the amount overhang behind the rear wheels and see them turn tight corners, some videos I have seen where the end of the trailer or truck describe a large arc outside the rear wheel track, then they catch on parked cars and fences etc. This caravan will have these issues, I would be careful turning tight corners in close quarters.
In Australia most trucks and semi trailers I have seen have the rear wheel set almost at the rear of the body and this poses no problem with the arc of the body causing any damage.
These dimensions are prescribed in design rules.
Look at some cars and buildings and machinery etc, if it doesn't look right usually it is not popular and mostly have some unseen issues.
Hi oxleigh
See my previous post.
Also, how do you think it got registered if it was legal (legal meaning what has been well told by Monte).
So my previous post stated that, like my home build (axle 240mm rear of centre of load area) looks can be deceiving as the rear overhang looks longer.
How can anyone let alone a professional like yourself conclude it is unsafe...? And unsafe because it "Doesn't look right".
As another example of judgemental busybodies I've lost count of the number of older caravanners out there that make rash statements. In my case "that van would be too heavy for that old car" and "that axle is too far forward".
The van pictured was built by me. Ultra lightweight at 730kg tare 998kg atm full ensuite blah blah. The car fools most "experts" ("old")as it's a 2001 kit car tare 1240kg. V6 Holden engine full chassis strengthened and engineered to tow 1000kg. The van axle was positioned carefully so as not to exceed the 85kg towball limit and make the van easy to achieve that 85kg downforce with loaded items distributed.
So unless I'm provided information relevant to making a sound judgement I presume innocence until found guilty. I'd never judge because "it doesn't look right."
Tony.
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Monday 25th of January 2021 06:23:33 PM
The way that that it got registered,as far as I can determine,is that the flat plate in front of the end of the actual caravan body was included in the "front loading space",thus making this obviously unbalanced van "legal".There is no way known that the length of the body in front of the rear axis exceeds the rear overhang,or distance from rear axis to rear extremity.Always there is somebody trying to manipulate the well-intentioned rules in an effort. to make their unsafe setups "legal".Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 25th of January 2021 06:59:28 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 25th of January 2021 07:00:01 PM
Unless a crusade led by the likes of yourself is levelled at the authorities that make the rules to amend them then people will judge these set ups harshly even though they're legal. Where's the proof it is less safe?
There's nothing humiliating about being legal until it no longer is.
Tony
"Where's the proof it's less safe?" you ask. May I suggest that you type into your browser "effects of yaw",or something similar,read up on yaw,take the time to absorb supplied information,again look at the original picture,and it now all should become clear. Cheers
Can I suggest you Google "humility?"
We did a half lap a couple of years ago and no issues re approach angles etc in servos etc ,, except one which l gave a miss, short and steep
You have to pick your marks when it came to gravel roads and use common sense
It handles well on the black top and sure , wind gusts side on can effect speed and stability to a certain degree , same as all vans l guess...the low centre of gravity assists here
Ours has an upgraded ATM of 1800kg , kitchens in the centre , dining forward of that and full ensuite at rear
Spare is located underneath , rear of axles
We averaged 13.5 litres per 100 ks over 20,000k sitting on a bit bit below highway limits , sometimes on the limit
It's great for what we could afford and tows extremely well , of course not for everyone but works for us
As already mentioned here , caravans have to be loaded pretty right of else it's a disaster waiting to happen , we shudder seeing some of the shocking setups some people tow around
Safe travels , cheers
What an arrogant and unnecessary response.
Since you claim to know all the answers, maybe you can tell me about this?
I towed this 10m long trailer all over SE Australia, mostly behind a Cortina.