Darwin Clamps Down On Illegal Campers - GN Nomads Website Story
msg said
08:27 PM Apr 26, 2013
I think you want too much. Secured areas? Farmers Land? Roads? This seems to me to be getting to be unofficial caravan parks. Why not just allow parking in some of the nice areas near already established parks and toilets. Remove some of those no camping signs. Police patrols or council rangers to move people on after a short period of time if they are becoming an eyesore.? Open up some of the national parks and state forests to casual parking without dog restrictions. All you need is a nice quiet spot that is safe from local yahoos. Theres got to be lots of quiet places that are not being used. My problem is CP's don't offer me anything I need. Other than a very expensive car park.
herbie said
08:33 PM Apr 26, 2013
msg wrote:
I think you want too much. Secured areas? Farmers Land? Roads? This seems to me to be getting to be unofficial caravan parks. Why not just allow parking in some of the nice areas near already established parks and toilets. Remove some of those no camping signs. Police patrols or council rangers to move people on after a short period of time if they are becoming an eyesore.? Open up some of the national parks and state forests to casual parking without dog restrictions. All you need is a nice quiet spot that is safe from local yahoos. Theres got to be lots of quiet places that are not being used. My problem is CP's don't offer me anything I need. Other than a very expensive car park.
It is not that i want too much , it is just the way the process works these days.It is not as easy as some people would think it to be,Once that farmer starts to charge money to people to PARK UP ..in the eyes of the land that becomes a business,and to run a business rules/ laws and regulations come into play...I am all for the park up on some farmers land,but not the extent of sending the farmer to the wall over it.
msg said
09:53 PM Apr 26, 2013
Sorry Herbie, I wasn't referring to you in particular. Its just that there seems to be a requirement for free parks that offer all the facilities for nothing. I don't expect any facilities. All I want is somewhere to park to enjoy the surroundings in a safe enviornment.
Old Crofter said
09:56 PM Apr 26, 2013
Over the last three years we have allowed visitors to our farm to park up, stipulated 48 hours initially but have extended it to suit the visitor. Mostly self contained rigs either motor homes but have had vans also. We have found that our visitors have enjoyed there stays in a secure safe envirionment.
We only offer our friend ship and sharing of knowledge, the washing machine if needed and pure spring water for a tank refill. We would hope that when we get out there the same can be offered to us.
We do have a network of places to stay as a result of our efforts.
Mobile housing, camps and caravan parks are not just for the occasional tourist or visitor, they represent permanent housing for people, even where those people are mobile at times, and councils should be taking up their responsibility to provide clean, accessible and budget priced public parks to suit. To seek to avoid that responsibility is to attempt to pass the buck elsewhere.
Obviously what is needed in Darwin is a bit of lateral thinking and creativity. A good first step would be for planners to consult directly with those most affected and to work out some practical options. One solution will likely not fit all and that also needs to be taken into account.
What about Darwin leading on this? Caravans and mobile homes will not just go away. The demand for low cost, basic service caravan parks can only increase.
Golddetectornomad said
11:00 PM Apr 26, 2013
As soon as a precedent is set, many will follow I feel. Caravan Parks have been fiddling with the Zoning of their properties for years.i.e. turning substantial parts of their Parks into mini housing estates under the guise they are really Mobile Homes...they are owned and occupied by the Licencees under 'Licence to Occupy'...are re-sold like normal Real Estate and commissions earnt upon re-sale....this was never the intention for Caravan Parks under their original Council Zoning requirements in many cases...mostly carried out under the radar...and once established often with retirees occupying its very difficult for Councils to monitor and control.... This practice has been to the detriment of genuine R/V travellers with ever reducing sites available as they are swallowed up....so I believe enterprising farmers can also test their Zoning Regulations as they are not setting up ablution blocks etc etc...just sites for self contained R/V's..... I have seen one particular Caravan Park in Gawler S.A. that went from being a traditional Caravan Park to a mini housing estate by osmosis and passage of time...now there is NOT ONE site available for travelling R/V's...yet still called a 'Park'....I would think most Grey Nomads would have seen similar examples of diminishing sites.....not to mention those Parks that have closed having been purchased by Developers and re-developed as Housing Estates... Of course vested interests will make it extremely difficult for anyone thinking outside the current framework which is patently not working for Grey Nomads/Baby Boomer travellers travelling without kids and different requirements than holidaying family's...I believe it will happen it's only a matter of when rather than if...... As a former Country Bank Manager, and Real Estate Agent who has been involved with Developers who are invariably able to obtain Zoning changes to suit their requirements I have more than an idea what I am talking about...I was also involved with selling Caravan Parks, some now developed/ear marked for housing, and others substantially cabins/mobile homes/and owner occupied homettes under Licence.. with powered and unpowered sites disappearing as finances allow, to increase the value of their Parks by increasing their net incomes.........my overview is that there will be much needed changes to 'the system' brought by demand and common sense...Hoo Roo
-- Edited by Golddetectornomad on Friday 26th of April 2013 11:06:31 PM
herbie said
11:15 PM Apr 26, 2013
florinhill wrote:
Over the last three years we have allowed visitors to our farm to park up, stipulated 48 hours initially but have extended it to suit the visitor. Mostly self contained rigs either motor homes but have had vans also. We have found that our visitors have enjoyed there stays in a secure safe envirionment.
We only offer our friend ship and sharing of knowledge, the washing machine if needed and pure spring water for a tank refill. We would hope that when we get out there the same can be offered to us.
We do have a network of places to stay as a result of our efforts.
Bob
What a fantastic idea, but i am guessing you do not charge money to these people to park up.Or are you in a very remote area where this service goes unnoticed.We are talking about Darwin here ,and with the c/ parks having a bonanza of a time dictating prices/ and i guess to some extent the issue about where and not where not to park up...I could not see that these park owners would let some thing like a cheaper place to park up for awhile, would not be to warmly welcomed by them.At the moment they have the market tied up, with no other competition close by.And some how reading between the lines the crouds are not heading that far North this season,so they will not be in any hurry to bring the prices down,due to the fact they do not have a very long season up that way, to pull the travelling public in to their businesses.
Old Crofter said
12:03 AM Apr 27, 2013
No charge
Gerty Dancer said
04:41 AM Apr 27, 2013
Someone came onto this forum a couple of years ago who offered bush camping out of Darwin somewhere, cant remember if he wanted money. Does anybody else remember him?
herbie said
06:51 AM Apr 27, 2013
Golddetectornomad wrote:
As soon as a precedent is set, many will follow I feel. Caravan Parks have been fiddling with the Zoning of their properties for years.i.e. turning substantial parts of their Parks into mini housing estates under the guise they are really Mobile Homes...they are owned and occupied by the Licencees under 'Licence to Occupy'...are re-sold like normal Real Estate and commissions earnt upon re-sale....this was never the intention for Caravan Parks under their original Council Zoning requirements in many cases...mostly carried out under the radar...and once established often with retirees occupying its very difficult for Councils to monitor and control.... This practice has been to the detriment of genuine R/V travellers with ever reducing sites available as they are swallowed up....so I believe enterprising farmers can also test their Zoning Regulations as they are not setting up ablution blocks etc etc...just sites for self contained R/V's..... I have seen one particular Caravan Park in Gawler S.A. that went from being a traditional Caravan Park to a mini housing estate by osmosis and passage of time...now there is NOT ONE site available for travelling R/V's...yet still called a 'Park'....I would think most Grey Nomads would have seen similar examples of diminishing sites.....not to mention those Parks that have closed having been purchased by Developers and re-developed as Housing Estates... Of course vested interests will make it extremely difficult for anyone thinking outside the current framework which is patently not working for Grey Nomads/Baby Boomer travellers travelling without kids and different requirements than holidaying family's...I believe it will happen it's only a matter of when rather than if...... As a former Country Bank Manager, and Real Estate Agent who has been involved with Developers who are invariably able to obtain Zoning changes to suit their requirements I have more than an idea what I am talking about...I was also involved with selling Caravan Parks, some now developed/ear marked for housing, and others substantially cabins/mobile homes/and owner occupied homettes under Licence.. with powered and unpowered sites disappearing as finances allow, to increase the value of their Parks by increasing their net incomes.........my overview is that there will be much needed changes to 'the system' brought by demand and common sense...Hoo Roo
-- Edited by Golddetectornomad on Friday 26th of April 2013 11:06:31 PM
I agree with you 100% in what you are saying.In a lot of cases these operators only use the word c/ van park to minipulate their own greed..
Golddetectornomad said
09:09 AM Apr 27, 2013
I'm happy to help the first farmer set up a fenced area and if I arrive with my Van and I happen to have 15 like minded friends in self contained Independant R/V's who want to stay for a week and change our minds to perhaps stay longer...lets see MR Council Zoning Regulation policeman come and evict us....we are there as we have a common interest in the extremely rare Foggo Woggo butterfly that breeds in farmers cow pats....so rare it is yet to actually be seen..but if there is one we will see it your Honour...... The worst that can happen is the farmer ends up with a securely fenced paddock with a nice all weather access road...no great expense...and farmers are quite adept at fencing believe it or not....I used to hold their beers for them while I helped them fence.... Caravan Parks can use 'creative interpretations' in relation to the Zoning approvals for their Parks.....so can farmers with land immediate adjacent to Country Towns....and the Town business's will love them for it.....just not the vested interests who dont want the status quo touched...and in many cases Parks are actually now over capitalised for their true market...how sad...adapt to the changing demographics or ignore it to your business peril......many are for sale openly or open to offer I have found....many want out at guesstimation prices if they can achieve them...times are 'a' changin'....not just blowin' in the wind.....Hoo Roo
P.S. As Will Rogers observed...'There are three kinds of men......The ones that learn by reading.....the few who learn by observation.....The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves......&
If you're riding ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure its still there.....
-- Edited by Golddetectornomad on Saturday 27th of April 2013 09:34:26 AM
Duh said
02:44 PM Apr 27, 2013
This is a quote from a previous Darwin Mayor on the problem in Darwin;
Snip......
"Lord Mayor Graeme Sawyer said that rangers were expected to fine nearly 1000 illegal campers this back-packer season.
"It's the same thing every dry," he said. "We issued about 890 fines last year, and they're worth about $130 each." Darwinites were up in arms over backpackers littering Darwin's coastline after using it as a sleeping spot in past years.
Mr Sawyer said the council had been trying to find ways to solve the issues.
"Last year we looked at opening some super low-cost accommodation, but the caravan parks didn't like it, and we got stuck in the middle between them and the backpackers," he said".......snip....
See this link for the full story in my previous post;
-- Edited by Duh on Saturday 27th of April 2013 03:25:38 PM
Duh said
03:29 PM Apr 27, 2013
johnq wrote:
I came across a site that links to a number of government and other reports relating to c'parks and grey nomads. That should be of benefit to those who asked for statistics, or at least some practical research,. The is a report by the Queensland government that is interesting for instance.
Sorry to those with slow gear and limits on downloads, but much of it is too long to copy and paste here.
Very good link John, thanks, perhaps you could start another thread "Freedom Of Choice Camping" and repost the link, as there is a lot of interest in that aspect in general....
-- Edited by Duh on Saturday 27th of April 2013 03:30:13 PM
Ontos45 said
06:39 PM Apr 27, 2013
Open up some of the national parks and state forests to casual parking without dog restrictions.
Now, there's a go. Sue and I travel with a dog and find it hard to get Park accommodation even if prepared to pay a bond, as Sasha is a BIG dog. Because of this we free-camp as much as possible. We have many National Parks and State Forest dotted all over our Great Land that we would put on our destination list if open to dogs. A well behaved dog causes less damage than a miss-behaving child in such areas.
Peter
msg said
08:12 PM Apr 27, 2013
My dog would not be allowed out of the van in NP. The wildlife might get her. LOL
Duh said
08:44 PM Apr 27, 2013
Lets not be too hard on Darwin Council, this problem on illegal campers has been going on for year, so must be particularly frustrating for them. See these 2011 stories ;
I came across a site that links to a number of government and other reports relating to c'parks and grey nomads. That should be of benefit to those who asked for statistics, or at least some practical research,. The is a report by the Queensland government that is interesting for instance.
-- Edited by Duh on Saturday 27th of April 2013 03:25:38 PM
Duh,
Thanks for the links. After reading them and the letters therein I realise I was barking up the wrong tree in my earlier suggestions, having misunderstood the problem described diplomatically. Having visited Darwin not so long ago, I can only confirm the disgusting excrement and other problems from the visiting 'long grassers' and others.
The Lord Mayor has my sympathy. It is a problem that is not restricted to Darwin and there is no easy solution.
-- Edited by johnq on Saturday 27th of April 2013 11:23:44 PM
Duh said
07:01 AM Apr 28, 2013
No worries John, it is closely related, but I reckon another thread on the subject as suggested would be good, there are a couple of other threads on General that would fit into that subject as well.
When I was up there they had a warning in the local paper about "long grasses" (their description) stealing from cars at Howard Springs and at the Army Museum, both of which have the carparks next to long grass where they hide.
I actually had an experience with them in a similar situation at Fitzroy Crossing in a heavily grassed area not normally frequented by tourists.
It is not that i want too much , it is just the way the process works these days.It is not as easy as some people would think it to be,Once that farmer starts to charge money to people to PARK UP ..in the eyes of the land that becomes a business,and to run a business rules/ laws and regulations come into play...I am all for the park up on some farmers land,but not the extent of sending the farmer to the wall over it.
Over the last three years we have allowed visitors to our farm to park up, stipulated 48 hours initially but have extended it to suit the visitor. Mostly self contained rigs either motor homes but have had vans also. We have found that our visitors have enjoyed there stays in a secure safe envirionment.
We only offer our friend ship and sharing of knowledge, the washing machine if needed and pure spring water for a tank refill. We would hope that when we get out there the same can be offered to us.
We do have a network of places to stay as a result of our efforts.
Bob
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/key/CaravanParks/$File/Caravan+Parks+E+Brief+11,+2011.pdf
Mobile housing, camps and caravan parks are not just for the occasional tourist or visitor, they represent permanent housing for people, even where those people are mobile at times, and councils should be taking up their responsibility to provide clean, accessible and budget priced public parks to suit. To seek to avoid that responsibility is to attempt to pass the buck elsewhere.
Obviously what is needed in Darwin is a bit of lateral thinking and creativity. A good first step would be for planners to consult directly with those most affected and to work out some practical options. One solution will likely not fit all and that also needs to be taken into account.
What about Darwin leading on this? Caravans and mobile homes will not just go away. The demand for low cost, basic service caravan parks can only increase.
As soon as a precedent is set, many will follow I feel. Caravan Parks have been fiddling with the Zoning of their properties for years.i.e. turning substantial parts of their Parks into mini housing estates under the guise they are really Mobile Homes...they are owned and occupied by the Licencees under 'Licence to Occupy'...are re-sold like normal Real Estate and commissions earnt upon re-sale....this was never the intention for Caravan Parks under their original Council Zoning requirements in many cases...mostly carried out under the radar...and once established often with retirees occupying its very difficult for Councils to monitor and control....
This practice has been to the detriment of genuine R/V travellers with ever reducing sites available as they are swallowed up....so I believe enterprising farmers can also test their Zoning Regulations as they are not setting up ablution blocks etc etc...just sites for self contained R/V's.....
I have seen one particular Caravan Park in Gawler S.A. that went from being a traditional Caravan Park to a mini housing estate by osmosis and passage of time...now there is NOT ONE site available for travelling R/V's...yet still called a 'Park'....I would think most Grey Nomads would have seen similar examples of diminishing sites.....not to mention those Parks that have closed having been purchased by Developers and re-developed as Housing Estates...
Of course vested interests will make it extremely difficult for anyone thinking outside the current framework which is patently not working for Grey Nomads/Baby Boomer travellers travelling without kids and different requirements than holidaying family's...I believe it will happen it's only a matter of when rather than if......
As a former Country Bank Manager, and Real Estate Agent who has been involved with Developers who are invariably able to obtain Zoning changes to suit their requirements I have more than an idea what I am talking about...I was also involved with selling Caravan Parks, some now developed/ear marked for housing, and others substantially cabins/mobile homes/and owner occupied homettes under Licence.. with powered and unpowered sites disappearing as finances allow, to increase the value of their Parks by increasing their net incomes.........my overview is that there will be much needed changes to 'the system' brought by demand and common sense...Hoo Roo
-- Edited by Golddetectornomad on Friday 26th of April 2013 11:06:31 PM
No charge
I'm happy to help the first farmer set up a fenced area and if I arrive with my Van and I happen to have 15 like minded friends in self contained Independant R/V's who want to stay for a week and change our minds to perhaps stay longer...lets see MR Council Zoning Regulation policeman come and evict us....we are there as we have a common interest in the extremely rare Foggo Woggo butterfly that breeds in farmers cow pats....so rare it is yet to actually be seen..but if there is one we will see it your Honour......
The worst that can happen is the farmer ends up with a securely fenced paddock with a nice all weather access road...no great expense...and farmers are quite adept at fencing believe it or not....I used to hold their beers for them while I helped them fence....
Caravan Parks can use 'creative interpretations' in relation to the Zoning approvals for their Parks.....so can farmers with land immediate adjacent to Country Towns....and the Town business's will love them for it.....just not the vested interests who dont want the status quo touched...and in many cases Parks are actually now over capitalised for their true market...how sad...adapt to the changing demographics or ignore it to your business peril......many are for sale openly or open to offer I have found....many want out at guesstimation prices if they can achieve them...times are 'a' changin'....not just blowin' in the wind.....Hoo Roo
P.S. As Will Rogers observed...'There are three kinds of men......The ones that learn by reading.....the few who learn by observation.....The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves......&
If you're riding ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure its still there.....
-- Edited by Golddetectornomad on Saturday 27th of April 2013 09:34:26 AM
This is a quote from a previous Darwin Mayor on the problem in Darwin;
Snip......
"Lord Mayor Graeme Sawyer said that rangers were expected to fine nearly 1000 illegal campers this back-packer season.
"It's the same thing every dry," he said. "We issued about 890 fines last year, and they're worth about $130 each." Darwinites were up in arms over backpackers littering Darwin's coastline after using it as a sleeping spot in past years.
Mr Sawyer said the council had been trying to find ways to solve the issues.
"Last year we looked at opening some super low-cost accommodation, but the caravan parks didn't like it, and we got stuck in the middle between them and the backpackers," he said".......snip....
See this link for the full story in my previous post;
http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2011/05/10/231301_travel.html
The "poo" story is particularly worrying;
http://www.news.com.au/national-news/darwins-dirty-secret-washed-from-streets/story-e6frfkvr-1225989403540
-- Edited by Duh on Saturday 27th of April 2013 03:25:38 PM
Very good link John, thanks, perhaps you could start another thread "Freedom Of Choice Camping" and repost the link, as there is a lot of interest in that aspect in general....
-- Edited by Duh on Saturday 27th of April 2013 03:30:13 PM
Open up some of the national parks and state forests to casual parking without dog restrictions.
Now, there's a go. Sue and I travel with a dog and find it hard to get Park accommodation even if prepared to pay a bond, as Sasha is a BIG dog. Because of this we free-camp as much as possible. We have many National Parks and State Forest dotted all over our Great Land that we would put on our destination list if open to dogs. A well behaved dog causes less damage than a miss-behaving child in such areas.
Peter
Lets not be too hard on Darwin Council, this problem on illegal campers has been going on for year, so must be particularly frustrating for them. See these 2011 stories ;
http://www.news.com.au/national-news/darwins-dirty-secret-washed-from-streets/story-e6frfkvr-1225989403540
http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2011/05/10/231301_travel.html
http://www.freechoicecamps.com.au/studiesstats.html
Sorry to those with slow gear and limits on downloads, but much of it is too long to copy and paste here.
Duh,
Thanks for the links. After reading them and the letters therein I realise I was barking up the wrong tree in my earlier suggestions, having misunderstood the problem described diplomatically. Having visited Darwin not so long ago, I can only confirm the disgusting excrement and other problems from the visiting 'long grassers' and others.
The Lord Mayor has my sympathy. It is a problem that is not restricted to Darwin and there is no easy solution.
-- Edited by johnq on Saturday 27th of April 2013 11:23:44 PM
No worries John, it is closely related, but I reckon another thread on the subject as suggested would be good, there are a couple of other threads on General that would fit into that subject as well.
When I was up there they had a warning in the local paper about "long grasses" (their description) stealing from cars at Howard Springs and at the Army Museum, both of which have the carparks next to long grass where they hide.
I actually had an experience with them in a similar situation at Fitzroy Crossing in a heavily grassed area not normally frequented by tourists.