You miss the point completely, the original thread was has anyone had experience with lead crystal batteries? It was the first time I had heard of them, and asked whether it was the same technology as the CSIRO battery, unfortunately I mentioned I had a good run with AGMs, my bad. The discussion was not about the merits of Lithium batteries. I think that lithium has its place where weight and size is an issue, in RVs as you pointed out. On a houseboat or off grid this is less of an issue, so the alternative technologies to lithium still have a place. By the way as you well know there are a number of non commercial sites that discuss alternatives to lithium batteries in a dispassionate way. Just use Google.
-- Edited by Muskat55 on Friday 23rd of June 2017 04:39:09 PM
My reaction was the direct comparison to lithium batteries for house battery use. Each type has its own domain, lithium batteries are useless as stand by batteries so not suitable for a UPS unless the intention is to cycle the system every day or so, then they are by far the most suitable. Lithium batteries don't make good pets, they like to work and the harder they work the more they like it......maybe a comparison to leaving a diesel engine idling for long periods to heat water with no other load, they don't like that at all. Starting batteries require a very small capacity but delivered in a big lump for a very short period, 400 amps for 30secs, the rest of the time is does very little. The high amp draw would be no problem for lithium batteries, it's the doing nothing for the other period they don't like nor do they like the very high under bonnet temp just like AGM or Gel batteries, so thin plate flooded cell lead acid do this job very well so I see no value in replacing them with any other chemistry battery.
Where do lead crystal or lead carbon batteries come into this equation? About the same area as lead calcium that has been around for yrs, they did a job while there was nothing better available but now there is a better option for this type of load requirement I can't see a slot empty for them to fill, lead calcium has already filled that little corner of the market and that corner is rapidly getting smaller.
If someone came up with a better buggy whip, or better button up shoes or even a better penny farthing pushbike, would you change back to that technology for main stream use now you have far more advanced technology available?
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Saturday 24th of June 2017 01:03:10 PM
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Saturday 24th of June 2017 01:03:44 PM
T1 Terry said
01:23 PM Jun 24, 2017
Mike Harding wrote:
Terry: you frequently sing the praises of LiFeP04 batteries - and that's fair enough - but I'm interested in hearing your opinion of their negative aspects?
More negative aspects:
(1) LifeP04 cells need to be strapped to stop the plastic cases bulging. This is not just for looks, they contain very little electrolyte as this is probably the most expensive component in the cell. If the cases bulge there is more area for the electrolyte to pool in and more space between the cell plates and separator material. without the electrolyte to carry the lithium ions from one plate surface to the other through the separator nothing happens inside the cell. Only the area where the electrolyte comes into contact between the cell plates is now active so capacity is lost. fortunately when the cell is again compressed the electrolyte again saturates the plate surfaces and the capacity returns.
(2) Modern quality LiFeP04 batteries have a Yttrium component added to the active material so they can handle up to 60*C and down to -20*C without any serious problems for house battery use. This is one of the areas where information regarding electric vehicle use is not relevant to RV house battery use as RV use doesn't require the huge discharge and recharge rates seen in electric vehicles when they accelerate from a stand still or regenerative brake to slow down.
Having said that, LiFeP04 or LYP cells are not suited to under the bonnet use as the heat there even kills AGM and Gel batteries, this is the realm of flood cell batteries as the water loss can be replaced.
(3) LiFeP04 batteries can take more abuse than lead acid batteries, but they are not invincible so to get a long cycle life they do need a protection system to keep them within the individual cells safe voltage limits. You can ignore this and still maybe get a similar cycle life to that of lead acid batteries but did you really pay the extra $$ just throw them down the drain?
There aren't a lot of negatives but if I think of more I'll add them later, they are not the perfect technology but they are certainly the best available at the moment for RV house battery use
T1 Terry
Mike Harding said
05:00 PM Jun 24, 2017
Thanks for those replies Terry - I shall absorb them at my leisure :)
goldenyears said
06:36 PM Oct 30, 2018
Hi terry just bought a ranger habitat motorhome all the bells and whistles .. has a 150A lead crystal battery and I have found it great unlike agm batterys can discharge to o with no hassles ..any way so far so good ..sunliner swear by them step up from agm.
T1 Terry said
03:24 PM Oct 31, 2018
Contact the manufacturer and ask what steps you need to take to keep the battery alive. There is no mention of the added requirements in any of the sales stuff so the manufacturer wouldn't know to pass on the additional info, so they are not to blame, more a case of not telling the negative stuff.
I believe if you have only been recharging using solar/DC to DC? on board RV mains charger.
Second hand info so you need to double check it to confirm, but, the story goes that if deeply discharged they require a high output charger to rapidly bring them up to 100% SOC and then discharged again, then the rapid discharge repeated to clear what ever the build up is, otherwise the capacity dwindles rapidly and can't be recovered if left for an extended period. As I say, contact the manufacturer to get the info directly from them, cause they should know eh ;)
T1 Terry
Mountain man said
05:31 PM May 23, 2021
I'm new here and just posted about Lead Crystal batteries as I was wondering whos using LC Batteries , after reading posts below i can tell you how long my AGM and lithium batteries lasted.
AGM 2 x 100amp lasted 4 years 7 mths in my Landcruiser as Aux batteries with dc to dc charge controller and a 250watt solar panel running normal things, fridge LED lights never discharged below 60%. cost $749 for 2.
Lithium 2 x 100amp lasted 5 years 9 mths in same application as above, cost $1589 for 2.
This why I'm looking at lead crystal, I know there twice the weight of lithium but after looking at the polymer lead crystal design, it appears to be better, with a cycle life of 8000 and a float life of 18 years and a working life of 10 to 12 years and a cost of $900 for 2x100Ah.
So I think I'll buy 2 and repost when they die.
Cheers Scott
Wanda said
09:45 AM May 24, 2021
Hi, just fljnd this post, far tooo many to read.!
We have 2 x120amp Lead Crystal batteries in our van, so far after 4yrs we have experienced no issues.
I think the only negative so far is their weight, like agm and others they are heavy where as the Lithium are much lighter, and cost more$$.
If we have any problems down the track we will investigate Lithium, but all good so far eith these LCs.
Cheers
Ian
Aus-Kiwi said
05:08 PM May 24, 2021
Im too scared to say as I may jinks myself !! My AGMs are working fine ! Near 7 years now !! Replaced the starter batteries last year . I have VSR between battery banks motorhome. Continuous use 400amp solar 200AH or so . 220litre fridge / freezer .
gdayjr said
06:16 AM May 26, 2021
Wanda wrote:
Hi, just fljnd this post, far tooo many to read.! We have 2 x120amp Lead Crystal batteries in our van, so far after 4yrs we have experienced no issues. I think the only negative so far is their weight, like agm and others they are heavy where as the Lithium are much lighter, and cost more$$. If we have any problems down the track we will investigate Lithium, but all good so far eith these LCs. Cheers Ian
I have just ordered a new caravan, and i have ordered 2x 200ah Lithium batteries, plus and extra solar pannel, making it 3x 170w
Whenarewethere said
07:12 AM May 26, 2021
Have you specified the wire gauge in the new caravan?
No point having to rip the caravan apart because of there cost cutting manufacturing.
The Travelling Dillberries said
08:01 PM May 31, 2021
Pure Energy Pb Crystal Batteries are the latest development in Lead-Crystal type batteries.
Ideal for all Deep Cycle applications such as RV & Caravan, Marine Deep Cycle and Solar Storage, they are also superb in high-discharge applications due to their high purity active material. Pure Energy Pb Crystal batteries can also recharge up to twice as fast as traditional Lead Acid variants such as AGM.
After several years in the Australian Market, and in some of the most demanding applications, the Pb Crystal Range has proven itself as a drop-in replacement for most AGM batteries, without product recalls or the requirement to increase charging rates up to 30%, as has been the case with some well other known brands.
They boast a wide operating temperature range and are perfect for applications such as RV Caravan and Camping, Solar Storage, Standby Power (UPS and Telecoms). They are also superb in high-discharge applications due to their high purity active material.
Apart from the improved cycle life, the main advantage of Pure Energy Pb Crystal Batteries is that they can recover from being fully discharged repeatedly, and from being left flat for weeks at a time.
Drop-In replacement for AGM
Super-fast recharge time up to twice as fast as AGM
Huge Cycle life, typically 2-3 times greater than AGM to same DoD.
SiO2 Electrolyte
Lead-Crystal Technology
Maintenance Free Fully Sealed
99% Recyclable Non-dangerous goods
2 Year replacement warranty
These batteries are 100% fresh, fully charged and ready to go!
My reaction was the direct comparison to lithium batteries for house battery use. Each type has its own domain, lithium batteries are useless as stand by batteries so not suitable for a UPS unless the intention is to cycle the system every day or so, then they are by far the most suitable. Lithium batteries don't make good pets, they like to work and the harder they work the more they like it......maybe a comparison to leaving a diesel engine idling for long periods to heat water with no other load, they don't like that at all. Starting batteries require a very small capacity but delivered in a big lump for a very short period, 400 amps for 30secs, the rest of the time is does very little. The high amp draw would be no problem for lithium batteries, it's the doing nothing for the other period they don't like nor do they like the very high under bonnet temp just like AGM or Gel batteries, so thin plate flooded cell lead acid do this job very well so I see no value in replacing them with any other chemistry battery.
Where do lead crystal or lead carbon batteries come into this equation? About the same area as lead calcium that has been around for yrs, they did a job while there was nothing better available but now there is a better option for this type of load requirement I can't see a slot empty for them to fill, lead calcium has already filled that little corner of the market and that corner is rapidly getting smaller.
If someone came up with a better buggy whip, or better button up shoes or even a better penny farthing pushbike, would you change back to that technology for main stream use now you have far more advanced technology available?
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Saturday 24th of June 2017 01:03:10 PM
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Saturday 24th of June 2017 01:03:44 PM
More negative aspects:
(1) LifeP04 cells need to be strapped to stop the plastic cases bulging. This is not just for looks, they contain very little electrolyte as this is probably the most expensive component in the cell. If the cases bulge there is more area for the electrolyte to pool in and more space between the cell plates and separator material. without the electrolyte to carry the lithium ions from one plate surface to the other through the separator nothing happens inside the cell. Only the area where the electrolyte comes into contact between the cell plates is now active so capacity is lost. fortunately when the cell is again compressed the electrolyte again saturates the plate surfaces and the capacity returns.
(2) Modern quality LiFeP04 batteries have a Yttrium component added to the active material so they can handle up to 60*C and down to -20*C without any serious problems for house battery use. This is one of the areas where information regarding electric vehicle use is not relevant to RV house battery use as RV use doesn't require the huge discharge and recharge rates seen in electric vehicles when they accelerate from a stand still or regenerative brake to slow down.
Having said that, LiFeP04 or LYP cells are not suited to under the bonnet use as the heat there even kills AGM and Gel batteries, this is the realm of flood cell batteries as the water loss can be replaced.
(3) LiFeP04 batteries can take more abuse than lead acid batteries, but they are not invincible so to get a long cycle life they do need a protection system to keep them within the individual cells safe voltage limits. You can ignore this and still maybe get a similar cycle life to that of lead acid batteries but did you really pay the extra $$ just throw them down the drain?
There aren't a lot of negatives but if I think of more I'll add them later, they are not the perfect technology but they are certainly the best available at the moment for RV house battery use
T1 Terry
Thanks for those replies Terry - I shall absorb them at my leisure :)
Hi terry just bought a ranger habitat motorhome all the bells and whistles .. has a 150A lead crystal battery and I have found it great unlike agm batterys can discharge to o with no hassles ..any way so far so good ..sunliner swear by them step up from agm.
I believe if you have only been recharging using solar/DC to DC? on board RV mains charger.
Second hand info so you need to double check it to confirm, but, the story goes that if deeply discharged they require a high output charger to rapidly bring them up to 100% SOC and then discharged again, then the rapid discharge repeated to clear what ever the build up is, otherwise the capacity dwindles rapidly and can't be recovered if left for an extended period. As I say, contact the manufacturer to get the info directly from them, cause they should know eh ;)
T1 Terry
I'm new here and just posted about Lead Crystal batteries as I was wondering whos using LC Batteries , after reading posts below i can tell you how long my AGM and lithium batteries lasted.
AGM 2 x 100amp lasted 4 years 7 mths in my Landcruiser as Aux batteries with dc to dc charge controller and a 250watt solar panel running normal things, fridge LED lights never discharged below 60%. cost $749 for 2.
Lithium 2 x 100amp lasted 5 years 9 mths in same application as above, cost $1589 for 2.
This why I'm looking at lead crystal, I know there twice the weight of lithium but after looking at the polymer lead crystal design, it appears to be better, with a cycle life of 8000 and a float life of 18 years and a working life of 10 to 12 years and a cost of $900 for 2x100Ah.
So I think I'll buy 2 and repost when they die.
Cheers Scott
We have 2 x120amp Lead Crystal batteries in our van, so far after 4yrs we have experienced no issues.
I think the only negative so far is their weight, like agm and others they are heavy where as the Lithium are much lighter, and cost more$$.
If we have any problems down the track we will investigate Lithium, but all good so far eith these LCs.
Cheers
Ian
I have just ordered a new caravan, and i have ordered 2x 200ah Lithium batteries, plus and extra solar pannel, making it 3x 170w
Have you specified the wire gauge in the new caravan?
No point having to rip the caravan apart because of there cost cutting manufacturing.
After several years in the Australian Market, and in some of the most demanding applications, the Pb Crystal Range has proven itself as a drop-in replacement for most AGM batteries, without product recalls or the requirement to increase charging rates up to 30%, as has been the case with some well other known brands.
They boast a wide operating temperature range and are perfect for applications such as RV Caravan and Camping, Solar Storage, Standby Power (UPS and Telecoms). They are also superb in high-discharge applications due to their high purity active material.
Apart from the improved cycle life, the main advantage of Pure Energy Pb Crystal Batteries is that they can recover from being fully discharged repeatedly, and from being left flat for weeks at a time.
These batteries are 100% fresh, fully charged and ready to go!
Mechanical Specifications
Electrical Specifications
Charge Voltages