Currently my batteries are AGM: hence this thread.
Warren-Pat_01 said
09:30 PM Aug 14, 2021
Cheap arse Chinese cells?
I got a surprise this past week when I had to replace my AGM battery. I was told by the proprietor of Battery World that ALL AGM batteries are made in China because there is the only one factory. I had intended to buy a Century to support the Australian industry, the other choice I had was an American based Remco but both were made in "C". Look out if fisty-cuffs commence with China!
I was going to look seriously at lithium for a couple of reasons - weight & usability but didn't have the time to "muck around" changing a few vital bits to make the system work.
So I took the easier way out & replaced a battery that was made in China & weighed 31.5kg - with a 1 year warranty & has lasted nearly 5 years that we've had the van (it was in the van when we bought it second hand) with another that weighs 30kg & has a 2 years warranty. I know lithium will make big inroads into the caravan industry in the near future, hopefully I'll still be around to see the changes.
Mike - sent you a PM.
Gundog said
09:09 AM Aug 15, 2021
Like many I also considered building my own lithium battery, because of the weight saving and better discharge amp hours, evworks in perth appears to be a reputable company who could supply my needs at reasonable prices i thought.
Any way I had a WTF moment and decided I could shave weight by getting rid of the feel good rubbish that we carried but never used, along with the desire to free camp dissolved prefering the comfort of caravan parks, 2 100ah have reached the end of their service life after 6 years and are gone a 100ah deep cycle battery remains which is nearing the end of its service life, it will be replaced with a 60ah AGM in due course.
peatop said
01:19 PM Aug 15, 2021
I think it comes down to why do you want to make your own batteries? I watched that video on the Voltax battery and was not impressed with it's contents, this is not how I see a 100Ah rv battery, to me I see a problem waiting to happen, in my opinion an rv battery should have only 4 cells for 12v, 8 cells for 24 and so on in one battery box, however the exception to this could be cells in parallel but not like what was in the voltax video which was a 7P4S battery, for me 7p should happen outside the battery box, my expectations for a battery would be a max of 2p inside the box but this would be with 75-100Ah cells, if I was to build my own battery system from scratch it would consist of 1P4s per box and then run them in parallel via cable or bus bars, when looking at batteries like in the video it just makes me wonder what am I buying when I cant see whats inside? I guess this is where the term"you get what you pay for" comes from.
I'm not saying don't buy these cheaper batteries, but I am saying be wary of what you do buy and read the warranty information before you purchase ;) I would much prefer to buy all the correct components and make my own battery than buy what I saw in that video as I know it's junk. If I make my own then I now it's not, I think this is why I would want to build my own battery.
I have no affiliation to any company nor do I recommend, I give my point of view and expect you to do your homework, buy your 3.2 cells from who you prefer but ask the right questions when you get all the right answers, then ask for confirmation in writing (email), if you buy direct from china ask for pictures of them matching the cells while they write the voltages on a piece of paper with your name on it and include that in the delivery, if buying local (aus stock) do the same, but they will cost you a bit more as freight, commission and handling charges will be added.
would I buy direct from China? yes why not? there are some well known good suppliers, the only issue is the delay in ordering to receiving and at present this could be a deciding factor, given the current status of whats going on, I think I would buy locally and pay the extra just so I have a reasonable expectancy of the delivery date.
Tony LEE said
04:03 PM Aug 15, 2021
Peatop, might surprise you to know that batteries made up using cylindrical lithium cells might be 20 to 40P 4S
Dick0 said
04:26 PM Aug 15, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
Dick0 wrote:
What LiFePO4 battery brand do you use Mike?
None.
Currently my batteries are AGM: hence this thread.
Good luck with your DIY endeavors Mike.
Post your progress. I will always be interested in DIY high quality LiFePO4 batteries especially those not made from Cheap Arse Chinese components.
My research always led to Chinese products.
Peter_n_Margaret said
04:42 PM Aug 15, 2021
Dick0 wrote:
Post your progress. I will always be interested in DIY high quality LiFePO4 batteries especially those not made from Cheap Arse Chinese components.
My research always led to Chinese products.
The best are also made in China.
Cheers,
Peter
Tony LEE said
12:35 PM Aug 16, 2021
"My research always led to Chinese products."
Might be hard to find any lithium cells not made in China.
As for unfounded aversions to Chinese-made products, you would be hard put to find any major European, Japanese or North American company that does not have a direct supply chain connection to china.
Dicko1 said
02:48 PM Aug 16, 2021
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
Cheap arse Chinese cells? I got a surprise this past week when I had to replace my AGM battery. I was told by the proprietor of Battery World that ALL AGM batteries are made in China because there is the only one factory. I had intended to buy a Century to support the Australian industry, the other choice I had was an American based Remco but both were made in "C". Look out if fisty-cuffs commence with China!
I was going to look seriously at lithium for a couple of reasons - weight & usability but didn't have the time to "muck around" changing a few vital bits to make the system work. So I took the easier way out & replaced a battery that was made in China & weighed 31.5kg - with a 1 year warranty & has lasted nearly 5 years that we've had the van (it was in the van when we bought it second hand) with another that weighs 30kg & has a 2 years warranty. I know lithium will make big inroads into the caravan industry in the near future, hopefully I'll still be around to see the changes.
Mike - sent you a PM.
Unfortunately this is absolute crap. There are many manufacturers and suppliers in China. Just google it and you,ll see many factories producing every type of battery. Lifeline agm are made in America...
-- Edited by Dicko1 on Monday 16th of August 2021 02:58:22 PM
-- Edited by Dicko1 on Monday 16th of August 2021 04:27:08 PM
kesa32 said
03:07 PM Aug 16, 2021
Yes unfortunately china is the main producer for lithium batteries, most OEM cells are made there too , it's just the resellers you deal with are usually selling various quality stuff , from cells that are end of runs / overstocked to not quite making the grade , to b grade and used / rewrapped- labeled etc ...... l got my 280ah cells last year for $70 US each plus delivery , so they're good value for money at that though not perfectly matched
If you ordered the new certified ones now ( with laser welded studs ) they're around $130 each US from Amy at Shenzhen Luyuan , and anything coming from china takes about 2-3 months
Most of the manufacturers over there normally do minimum order runs of like 5000 cells , so Amy has to go with that to get them with certification etc , so its about the only way we can buy our little orders of cells otherwise it's take the grey market gamble with other suppliers
-- Edited by kesa32 on Monday 16th of August 2021 03:08:31 PM
Warren-Pat_01 said
09:51 PM Aug 16, 2021
Thanks for the info Dicko1,
I've just looked up your Lifeline batteries - the price of them would drive me straight to lithium!
Also where in Townsville could I get hold of one? I had only a few days grace to replace the one that failed before we headed south-west.
peatop said
11:39 PM Aug 16, 2021
Tony LEE wrote:
Peatop, might surprise you to know that batteries made up using cylindrical lithium cells might be 20 to 40P 4S
Not at all, but it does create some concerning thoughts, I contacted another AUS supplier of drop in batteries and yes they use 15Ah cylindrical batteries, if they are going to sit in one location like your workshop or house they may be fine but to have a 12-48v system made from so many batteries just make alarm bells ring in my head, vibration, balancing, are they balanced? If you make your own using 4 cells in series, a BMS and balancing board that suits inside a normal camping battery box or box from Bunnings, then if you have an issue with a cell some time down the track then you just replace, repair that cell, fairly cheap and easy repair not throwing the battery away.
Look as I said I'm not saying don't buy them, I personally don't think they are worth the money nor my time, someone said that bigweibatteries were suspect when he looked at them but if you ask for them to be warranted to your specifications and written conformation stating this, and then test them when they arrive, be it 3.2 cells or one of their complete batteries then I don't see an issue paying $690 for a battery atleast half decent compared to buying one made to a price for maximum profit not built to a standard of quality, when I did my trades I was tought quality over quantity.
You are right China is the worlds largest manufacturer of Lithium batteries and there is a website with an article all about how they are gearing up to supply the world with it's constant needs for stored power, another worrying sign in uncertain times having all out apple in one barrel if you know what I mean but hey that's politics and I shouldn't go down that path.
ps: there is a guy that builds Lithium batteries in Bayswater Melb. FPV-power he has a video on you tube "howto make Lithium batteries" not sure on the title but if you want a simple video hmm he does tend to dribble a little but he does know what he's doing and exports purpose built kayak batteries and other electronic builds all over the world again no affiliation.
I don't know how I write such long posts as I never learnt to read or write lol
Dicko1 said
01:56 PM Aug 17, 2021
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
Thanks for the info Dicko1, I've just looked up your Lifeline batteries - the price of them would drive me straight to lithium!
Also where in Townsville could I get hold of one? I had only a few days grace to replace the one that failed before we headed south-west.
Mate...just go for Fullriver. A top quality agm that receives excellent reviews all the time. I,ve used them for over 20 years, until recently when I switched to lithium for weight issues. Looked after you should get 8 years with no problems My mates use Fullriver and also are very happy with them. You can buy Fullriver in townsville
Dick0 said
02:27 PM Aug 17, 2021
A review on how "cheap arse Chinese" batteries perform.
We previously had a 100 amp hour LiFePo4 (Lithium ion Phosphate) "Mono block" battery which was great in our pop top.
Having more than 20 years experience with solar I set it app up myself without a hitch.
The problem was the Vision brand LiFePO4 battery had an internal current limiting device set at 50 amps, it turned out I needed 54 amp to start the microwave, and 58 amps to start the coffee machine and it would drop out every time.
However, it would run every thing else perfectly and never once went into LVDC.
My solution to this issue was to purchase 4 x 200 amp LiFpo4 Prismatic cells from China and build a new system.
The biggest issue with going down this path is the BMS! I purchased a Daly 250 amp BMS (yes they make them up to 500 amps), as there is not really many choices at the current level.
For several reasons I bought a "separate port" BMS, a lot of people say this is a bad idea because the charging current is low, but in my case it is 50 amps and my inputs would never get anywhere near that, so not an issue.
First problem, the first BMS I received was DOA, had to send it back to china, and wait two months for the replacement, the second problem was there are NO settings on these things, what you get is what you get.
Next problem there is absolutely no indication to show if the device is working or not, not even an LED, so if it appears to be limiting charging and discharging correctly that is the best you can hope for.
So all my other devices are Victron brand, that is a MPPT 75/15 with built in Bluetooth, Victron BMV-712 monitor (both networked), Victron Smart shunt & Temp sensor etc. etc.
Whilst I really like Victron gear I have a massive beef with them, they have stated they "will not manufacture BMS for other brands of batteries"!
This is like saying we won't sell you a car unless you use X brand of petrol in it, and begs the question do they think ever Victron regulator is used exclusively with Victron (VERY) expensive batteries??
The RV market is crying out for a reliable high amperage European made programmable BMS, and somebody is going to eventually step in and make one, I just wish Victron would because their gear is great.
One thing to note that even though my Merc is wired with an Anderson plug I am not running a DC to DC charger system to the van, it's just an extra layer of complexity and not required.
So after two years of setting up and tweaking this system my advice is this:
A. DON'T start with anything less than 200 amp capacity.
DO buy lithium, the difference in performance and weight is chalk and cheese and the performance is spectacular.
DO buy a "Monoblock" battery with built in BMS.
Everything else is up to you, but I would recommend a BMV-712 for piece of mind.
You can see the latest addition to my system build, and read about my many trials ands tribulations here: https://tinyurl.com/4brcsutu
And I would say that I do wish Will would stop saying once Prismatic cells are balanced they stay that way, because they just don't! he never goes back to demonstrate the proof of anything.
There is no way a BMS can push current through those little cables fast enough to keep them balanced and they do get out of whack regularly no matter what anyone says.
If you want to see just how complicated and deep this rabbit hole can get have a look at "The Off Grid Garage" on YouTube.
I'm looking at the Daly BMS too and I take your point about its lack of information output. Perhaps one or two Hall Effect devices hooked up to a small micro would be worthwhile.
Tony LEE said
09:25 AM Aug 27, 2021
I have a Daly smart bms which uses Bluetooth and a phone app to provide all the customisation and control you will ever need.
It also has a battery SOC feature which never varies from the victron battery meter by more than a couple of percent. Forget the expensive victron meter and that will more than pay for the Daly bms
kesa32 said
10:09 AM Aug 27, 2021
Same as Tony , mines a 200a version , also added qnbbm active balancing as my cells are large and not perfectly matched so these help keep them in balance ...... l even top balanced the cells in series this way rather than parallel with a lab supply etc
With factory matched and batched cells you'd probably never need to worry about extra balancing as standard bms would be ample
Tex260Z said
04:52 PM Aug 31, 2021
Hi,
They must have come onto the market after I bought mine, can I get the model number please?
They're easy to google too , direct for china is cheaper , BUT , think warranty backup if your concerned , and make sure you order what you need ( like the on/off power level switch ) , the biggest problem with Daly is inconsistency with their ports and wires , they seem to alter stuff and that makes things confusing
l got mine through the battery supplier shipped with batteries, they get Daly to make them for their sales so it hasn't got Daly anywhere on it , works as it should and the most it'll see is the microwave , about 120A going through it ,200A model
-- Edited by kesa32 on Wednesday 1st of September 2021 02:18:26 PM
None.
Currently my batteries are AGM: hence this thread.
I got a surprise this past week when I had to replace my AGM battery. I was told by the proprietor of Battery World that ALL AGM batteries are made in China because there is the only one factory. I had intended to buy a Century to support the Australian industry, the other choice I had was an American based Remco but both were made in "C". Look out if fisty-cuffs commence with China!
I was going to look seriously at lithium for a couple of reasons - weight & usability but didn't have the time to "muck around" changing a few vital bits to make the system work.
So I took the easier way out & replaced a battery that was made in China & weighed 31.5kg - with a 1 year warranty & has lasted nearly 5 years that we've had the van (it was in the van when we bought it second hand) with another that weighs 30kg & has a 2 years warranty. I know lithium will make big inroads into the caravan industry in the near future, hopefully I'll still be around to see the changes.
Mike - sent you a PM.
Like many I also considered building my own lithium battery, because of the weight saving and better discharge amp hours, evworks in perth appears to be a reputable company who could supply my needs at reasonable prices i thought.
Any way I had a WTF moment and decided I could shave weight by getting rid of the feel good rubbish that we carried but never used, along with the desire to free camp dissolved prefering the comfort of caravan parks, 2 100ah have reached the end of their service life after 6 years and are gone a 100ah deep cycle battery remains which is nearing the end of its service life, it will be replaced with a 60ah AGM in due course.
I think it comes down to why do you want to make your own batteries? I watched that video on the Voltax battery and was not impressed with it's contents, this is not how I see a 100Ah rv battery, to me I see a problem waiting to happen, in my opinion an rv battery should have only 4 cells for 12v, 8 cells for 24 and so on in one battery box, however the exception to this could be cells in parallel but not like what was in the voltax video which was a 7P4S battery, for me 7p should happen outside the battery box, my expectations for a battery would be a max of 2p inside the box but this would be with 75-100Ah cells, if I was to build my own battery system from scratch it would consist of 1P4s per box and then run them in parallel via cable or bus bars, when looking at batteries like in the video it just makes me wonder what am I buying when I cant see whats inside? I guess this is where the term"you get what you pay for" comes from.
I'm not saying don't buy these cheaper batteries, but I am saying be wary of what you do buy and read the warranty information before you purchase ;) I would much prefer to buy all the correct components and make my own battery than buy what I saw in that video as I know it's junk. If I make my own then I now it's not, I think this is why I would want to build my own battery.
I have no affiliation to any company nor do I recommend, I give my point of view and expect you to do your homework, buy your 3.2 cells from who you prefer but ask the right questions when you get all the right answers, then ask for confirmation in writing (email), if you buy direct from china ask for pictures of them matching the cells while they write the voltages on a piece of paper with your name on it and include that in the delivery, if buying local (aus stock) do the same, but they will cost you a bit more as freight, commission and handling charges will be added.
would I buy direct from China? yes why not? there are some well known good suppliers, the only issue is the delay in ordering to receiving and at present this could be a deciding factor, given the current status of whats going on, I think I would buy locally and pay the extra just so I have a reasonable expectancy of the delivery date.
Good luck with your DIY endeavors Mike.
Post your progress. I will always be interested in DIY high quality LiFePO4 batteries especially those not made from Cheap Arse Chinese components.
My research always led to Chinese products.
The best are also made in China.
Cheers,
Peter
Unfortunately this is absolute crap. There are many manufacturers and suppliers in China. Just google it and you,ll see many factories producing every type of battery. Lifeline agm are made in America...
-- Edited by Dicko1 on Monday 16th of August 2021 02:58:22 PM
-- Edited by Dicko1 on Monday 16th of August 2021 04:27:08 PM
Yes unfortunately china is the main producer for lithium batteries, most OEM cells are made there too , it's just the resellers you deal with are usually selling various quality stuff , from cells that are end of runs / overstocked to not quite making the grade , to b grade and used / rewrapped- labeled etc ......
l got my 280ah cells last year for $70 US each plus delivery , so they're good value for money at that though not perfectly matched
If you ordered the new certified ones now ( with laser welded studs ) they're around $130 each US from Amy at Shenzhen Luyuan , and anything coming from china takes about 2-3 months
Most of the manufacturers over there normally do minimum order runs of like 5000 cells , so Amy has to go with that to get them with certification etc , so its about the only way we can buy our little orders of cells otherwise it's take the grey market gamble with other suppliers
-- Edited by kesa32 on Monday 16th of August 2021 03:08:31 PM
I've just looked up your Lifeline batteries - the price of them would drive me straight to lithium!
Also where in Townsville could I get hold of one? I had only a few days grace to replace the one that failed before we headed south-west.
Not at all, but it does create some concerning thoughts, I contacted another AUS supplier of drop in batteries and yes they use 15Ah cylindrical batteries, if they are going to sit in one location like your workshop or house they may be fine but to have a 12-48v system made from so many batteries just make alarm bells ring in my head, vibration, balancing, are they balanced? If you make your own using 4 cells in series, a BMS and balancing board that suits inside a normal camping battery box or box from Bunnings, then if you have an issue with a cell some time down the track then you just replace, repair that cell, fairly cheap and easy repair not throwing the battery away.
Look as I said I'm not saying don't buy them, I personally don't think they are worth the money nor my time, someone said that bigweibatteries were suspect when he looked at them but if you ask for them to be warranted to your specifications and written conformation stating this, and then test them when they arrive, be it 3.2 cells or one of their complete batteries then I don't see an issue paying $690 for a battery atleast half decent compared to buying one made to a price for maximum profit not built to a standard of quality, when I did my trades I was tought quality over quantity.
You are right China is the worlds largest manufacturer of Lithium batteries and there is a website with an article all about how they are gearing up to supply the world with it's constant needs for stored power, another worrying sign in uncertain times having all out apple in one barrel if you know what I mean but hey that's politics and I shouldn't go down that path.
ps: there is a guy that builds Lithium batteries in Bayswater Melb. FPV-power he has a video on you tube "howto make Lithium batteries" not sure on the title but if you want a simple video hmm he does tend to dribble a little but he does know what he's doing and exports purpose built kayak batteries and other electronic builds all over the world again no affiliation.
I don't know how I write such long posts as I never learnt to read or write lol
Mate...just go for Fullriver. A top quality agm that receives excellent reviews all the time. I,ve used them for over 20 years, until recently when I switched to lithium for weight issues. Looked after you should get 8 years with no problems My mates use Fullriver and also are very happy with them. You can buy Fullriver in townsville
A review on how "cheap arse Chinese" batteries perform.
Solar Energy System: Voltage check: 2 x Voltax LiFePO4 12V 100Ah 50A BMS operating in series = 24V - YouTube
Build a 200ah LiFePO4 from scratch with no spot welding.
For a 200ah the cost is reasonable in relation to the quality.
Build a DIY Lithium LiFePo4 Headway 12v Battery replacement - YouTube
Hi,
Ok, my advice (after two years) is DON'T
We previously had a 100 amp hour LiFePo4 (Lithium ion Phosphate) "Mono block" battery which was great in our pop top.
Having more than 20 years experience with solar I set it app up myself without a hitch.
The problem was the Vision brand LiFePO4 battery had an internal current limiting device set at 50 amps, it turned out I needed 54 amp to start the microwave, and 58 amps to start the coffee machine and it would drop out every time.
However, it would run every thing else perfectly and never once went into LVDC.
My solution to this issue was to purchase 4 x 200 amp LiFpo4 Prismatic cells from China and build a new system.
The biggest issue with going down this path is the BMS! I purchased a Daly 250 amp BMS (yes they make them up to 500 amps), as there is not really many choices at the current level.
For several reasons I bought a "separate port" BMS, a lot of people say this is a bad idea because the charging current is low, but in my case it is 50 amps and my inputs would never get anywhere near that, so not an issue.
First problem, the first BMS I received was DOA, had to send it back to china, and wait two months for the replacement, the second problem was there are NO settings on these things, what you get is what you get.
Next problem there is absolutely no indication to show if the device is working or not, not even an LED, so if it appears to be limiting charging and discharging correctly that is the best you can hope for.
So all my other devices are Victron brand, that is a MPPT 75/15 with built in Bluetooth, Victron BMV-712 monitor (both networked), Victron Smart shunt & Temp sensor etc. etc.
Whilst I really like Victron gear I have a massive beef with them, they have stated they "will not manufacture BMS for other brands of batteries"!
This is like saying we won't sell you a car unless you use X brand of petrol in it, and begs the question do they think ever Victron regulator is used exclusively with Victron (VERY) expensive batteries??
The RV market is crying out for a reliable high amperage European made programmable BMS, and somebody is going to eventually step in and make one, I just wish Victron would because their gear is great.
One thing to note that even though my Merc is wired with an Anderson plug I am not running a DC to DC charger system to the van, it's just an extra layer of complexity and not required.
So after two years of setting up and tweaking this system my advice is this:
A. DON'T start with anything less than 200 amp capacity.
DO buy lithium, the difference in performance and weight is chalk and cheese and the performance is spectacular.
DO buy a "Monoblock" battery with built in BMS.
Everything else is up to you, but I would recommend a BMV-712 for piece of mind.
You can see the latest addition to my system build, and read about my many trials ands tribulations here: https://tinyurl.com/4brcsutu
And I would say that I do wish Will would stop saying once Prismatic cells are balanced they stay that way, because they just don't! he never goes back to demonstrate the proof of anything.
There is no way a BMS can push current through those little cables fast enough to keep them balanced and they do get out of whack regularly no matter what anyone says.
If you want to see just how complicated and deep this rabbit hole can get have a look at "The Off Grid Garage" on YouTube.
Happy charging all.
Thanks for the post Tex.
I'm looking at the Daly BMS too and I take your point about its lack of information output. Perhaps one or two Hall Effect devices hooked up to a small micro would be worthwhile.
With factory matched and batched cells you'd probably never need to worry about extra balancing as standard bms would be ample
Hi,
They must have come onto the market after I bought mine, can I get the model number please?
Cheers
Tex
www.solar4rvs.com.au/daly-smart-lifepo4-lfp-4-cells-4s-12v-12.8v-250a-b
They're easy to google too , direct for china is cheaper , BUT , think warranty backup if your concerned , and make sure you order what you need ( like the on/off power level switch ) , the biggest problem with Daly is inconsistency with their ports and wires , they seem to alter stuff and that makes things confusing
l got mine through the battery supplier shipped with batteries, they get Daly to make them for their sales so it hasn't got Daly anywhere on it , works as it should and the most it'll see is the microwave , about 120A going through it ,200A model
-- Edited by kesa32 on Wednesday 1st of September 2021 02:18:26 PM