Fridge working ok not withstanding freezer door but that is a known fault i'll sort that out later. Yes the little battery is in the same place as the big batteries go and using the same wiring, looking more and more like battery problem. The overnite drain is about what is to be expected and the solar is good and doesn't require long to charge the little battery back up. Wont know for a few days about big batteries.
Thank you everybody for advice and putting up with my whining. There is light the end of tunnel.............maybe. lol
Whenarewethere said
02:40 PM Oct 10, 2021
Hope you are out of the tunnel before more could be added!
rgren2 said
03:25 PM Oct 10, 2021
looking more and more like battery problem
My thoughts too.
oldbloke said
07:31 PM Oct 10, 2021
rgren2 wrote:
looking more and more like battery problem
My thoughts too.
Looking like it
Bass said
07:29 PM Oct 12, 2021
Well.... The jury has returned and the verdict is.....BOTH 260Ahr Preditor batteries FAILED. On the 1st slow draw down test 1 battery lasted 40 minutes and the other 30 minutes. On the 2nd draw down test 1 battery lasted smidge over 40minutes and other was still being tested but wasn't looking good. Battery bloke said he expected at least 500 minutes as batteries were march 2020. The answer is lithium but the question is 1 x 200 or 2x 120, Gunna do a bit or research i think. Thank you one and all.
Whenarewethere said
08:00 PM Oct 12, 2021
Like lead acid which you can draw down 100% occasionally, for extended inclement weather you need to calculate the total AH so you have X number of days up your sleeve before you need to turn the engine to charge.
In theory I have a week.
oldbloke said
08:30 PM Oct 12, 2021
Well, at least it's an easy if not so cheap fix.
Any chance of a warranty claim. ?
yobarr said
09:37 PM Oct 12, 2021
Bass wrote:
Well.... The jury has returned and the verdict is.....BOTH 260Ahr Preditor batteries FAILED. On the 1st slow draw down test 1 battery lasted 40 minutes and the other 30 minutes. On the 2nd draw down test 1 battery lasted smidge over 40minutes and other was still being tested but wasn't looking good. Battery bloke said he expected at least 500 minutes as batteries were march 2020. The answer is lithium but the question is 1 x 200 or 2x 120, Gunna do a bit or research i think. Thank you one and all.
Don't make the mistake of buying El Cheapo Lithium. There is no gas appliance in my van,and with my solar-powered batteries I am running my AC 24/7 in 35-40 heat,run a microwave,toaster,electric frypan,slow cooker,air fryer,TV,175 litre fridge/freezer, stereo etc etc,and I have NEVER hooked up to 240 or a generator.Do it once,do it well.Good luck,but do NOT not make the mistake of buying El Cheapo. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 12th of October 2021 09:39:37 PM
peatop said
02:38 PM Oct 14, 2021
Bass wrote:
Well.... The jury has returned and the verdict is.....BOTH 260Ahr Preditor batteries FAILED. On the 1st slow draw down test 1 battery lasted 40 minutes and the other 30 minutes. On the 2nd draw down test 1 battery lasted smidge over 40minutes and other was still being tested but wasn't looking good. Battery bloke said he expected at least 500 minutes as batteries were march 2020. The answer is lithium but the question is 1 x 200 or 2x 120, Gunna do a bit or research i think. Thank you one and all.
I've been away camping for a few days without internet, but glad to hear the fault has been found, and it actually sounds like your fridge is quite efficient.
In regards to you purchasing lithium, I would tend to buy 2 batteries of equal Amperage as then if one fails you have one to keep you out of trouble. Make sure you can run the batteries in parallel and wire them up accordingly, and you should get many years of service from them.
I think the biggest/hardest choice now will be what brand to buy, I am relatively new to lithium 12v but it is my belief that if the cells are 3.2v nominal then you only need 4 cells, unlike a lot of these drop in replacement batteries flogged cheaply on the net that contain 28+ cells and a lot of them are way over rated, I noticed in the section on teardown batteries that Whenarewethere showed a victron battery that only had 4 cells, this is in my opinion how a battery should look. I only found one supplier when I was looking for a drop in replacement that had only 4 cells in his batteries but then took the plunge to make my own, which the cells and BMS should arrive in the next week or 2.
So I will keep everyone informed how that goes, as I test the capacity of each cell before assembly (and no I will not be testing the tester ).
-- Edited by peatop on Thursday 14th of October 2021 02:40:26 PM
Terryt said
02:55 PM Oct 14, 2021
What is your solar/battery setup. Must be huge (talking to Yobar)
-- Edited by Terryt on Thursday 14th of October 2021 02:56:48 PM
yobarr said
03:40 PM Oct 14, 2021
Terryt wrote:
What is your solar/battery setup. Must be huge (talking to Yobar)
Used to have 9x190 watt Trina panels (1710 watts) but broke a couple on dirt roads.Impossible to get replacements,as they were an older model,and I could not fit physically bigger panels amongst the remaining 190s.Took them all off,and ditched them,but replaced with 6x275 watt Suntech Polys.(1650 watts) In the van I have a 5kw Victron inverter (plus 2kw Victron in car as a totally separate system for beer fridge!) and 540ah Victron Lithium Batteries. (6x90ah). Car has 2x90ah Victron Lithium batteries.Where I presently am travelling,it was 40 degrees yesterday,and again today it is 40 degrees,so I left my 2.5kw MHI AC running all night. Batteries dropped to 88% overnight,and were back at 100% just after 10am. Cheers YobaRR
Terryt said
01:01 PM Oct 15, 2021
impressive
peatop said
06:05 PM Oct 15, 2021
Terryt wrote:
impressive
x2 and I thought I was doing ok now
Bass said
12:47 PM Oct 19, 2021
Just an update...... Waiting for the predator rep to show up at the battery place, they going to see if they can get some sort of credit back for me, A big shout out to the boys at Kyabram batteries , they also doing me a deal on 2 x 120Ahr lithiums. Would of liked to put Victron in but $$$$$$$$ Later on will add another 120 to it, given my health record don't know if it was worth spending big bucks for little long term gain. ( thats life.
PeterD said
01:27 PM Oct 19, 2021
second thoughts
-- Edited by PeterD on Tuesday 19th of October 2021 01:28:34 PM
Mike Harding said
01:38 PM Oct 19, 2021
Bass wrote:
Would of liked to put Victron in but $$$$$$$$
Victron make some brilliant inverters and solar controllers but I would not buy Victron batteries because, afaik, Victron do not make batteries so are rebadging another and, I suspect, putting a hefty profit margin on the battery. Find a reputable manufacturer (Powersonic amongst other) and buy their product.
peatop said
01:59 PM Oct 19, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
Bass wrote:
Would of liked to put Victron in but $$$$$$$$
Victron make some brilliant inverters and solar controllers but I would not buy Victron batteries because, afaik, Victron do not make batteries so are rebadging another and, I suspect, putting a hefty profit margin on the battery. Find a reputable manufacturer (Powersonic amongst other) and buy their product.
Hey Mike I had a quick look on the EV website and their batteries seem to be worth looking at or investigating as a drop in replacement, although I didn't go much further than looking at the build and price but for around $750 for a 4s 12v it seems ok to investigate for someone going down that path?
Oh wait I just looked again and they use,
" Whats Inside the Box? One thing that differentiates EV Power from other Lithium battery suppliers is that we know what is in the box and we also tell the client what is in the box. In addition our phone App allows the customer to see exactly what is happening with the cells in the battery. Our EVH batteries use high quality cylindrical cells of the 32700 size format, LiFePO4 3.2V 6Ah. Internally the cells are spot welded in a 20P4S format into a rigid, vibration proof unitary structure. We are aware of a disinformation campaign suggesting that cylindrical cells are inferior to prismatic (box shaped) cells, this is false. We have experience with both cell types over 13 years and the defining factor is the quality of manufacture of cells and battery packs. Tesla Electric Vehicles use cylindrical cells of a similar format."
-- Edited by peatop on Tuesday 19th of October 2021 02:07:06 PM
Bass said
02:01 PM Oct 23, 2021
Well the Preditor rep would not come to the party, said that the batteries were left dead flat for to long and that it was my fault. and I would get no credit at all. Ended up buying 3x120ahr lithium batteries ( NOT PREDITOR BRAND ). Big Thank you to Kyabram Batteries.
Bass said
01:36 PM Jan 14, 2022
Well Well Well, Update on fridge sarga seems i got ripped off by the installers who originally upgraded system, predater batteries where redated when put in, solar controler started playing up when connected to new batteries so pulled it out Made in china ( no problem there ) but DATE OF MANAFACTURE, JAN 2010 bloody thing was 10years old when installed and used. new Victron controller installed. All going perfect fridge doing what it is suposed to and all's well in my world UNTILL other day 39 degs, in park on 240 volt fridge not copeing, fridge running flat out on fast freeze and just keeping frezer at - 5 degs, any other setting and temp goes to positive , at 6pm fridge -1.5 deg. by 3am fridge finally down to -21 degs, next day 38 deg same story. my 50lt Waceo from car put in van and set to -2 deg no problems. SO I removed the 240 volt wires from fridge and ran it on 12volt that seemed to work a bit. at home now and van out in sun 28degs and all good. Pricing 3 way fridges had enuf this bloody thing.
oldbloke said
03:01 PM Jan 14, 2022
Hell, your having a bad run. They are just bastards. Im very sypathetic.
We had a similar run with dodgy instillation of brake controllers in two seperate tugs. Unbelievable what goes on.
Hope it all works out.
Whenarewethere said
04:45 PM Jan 14, 2022
I have done lots of tests on my 28L fridge. The lowest I got it to was -25°C.
When I ran it for 72 hours straight in a heated room at 35°C & sometime heated to 40°C. It had no issues cooling, but I did notice that it generally could only cool to about 45°C below ambient temperature. So if it is 45°C you will only get it down to 0°C.
So in hot environments like a car or the sun hitting the side of the caravan where the fridge is, one could easily have +60°C and the fridge will struggle.
It is clear in very hot ambient temperatures a fridge needs really good air flow through the condenser, good insulation, away from sun and extra heavy wire to the battery to get that last 0.1 volt instead of going up in heat through thin wiring.
So look at the fridges data sheet at how many degree is can reduce by.
Whenarewethere said
04:49 PM Jan 14, 2022
One could run water cooling over the condenser. Would be an interesting project.
DeBe said
07:42 PM Jan 14, 2022
In yachts you can get water cooled condencers for fridge units. On the cray boat i worked the cool room refrigeration had water cooled condencer/heat exchanger which was fed water from the pump supplying the well.
Whenarewethere said
04:57 PM Jan 16, 2022
My sister's yacht has a water cooled heat exchanger fridge. Works really well, amazing how quick they freeze.
My 28L fridge I swapped the original 92mm fan with a 120mm Noctua fan, which had about the same volume of airflow but much lower power consumption.
Since I did all the fridge testing, I swapped the 120mm fan for a new high volume & higher pressure Noctua fan, which being a new generation didn't use much more power but had much better airflow.
Just a reminder, blow the dust out of the condenser. It is amazing how quickly the dust builds up to form a blanket.
This photo has the first 120mm fan I installed. There is an air gun on the end of blue air hose. Also since this photo have upgraded the air system from 90psi to 135psi, only for short periods but nevertheless very handy to clean dust out, have a second air tank which helps. The fridge motor area was filthy only after 3 months traveling.
Bass, just ensure they guarantee they install to the manurfacturers requirements. Few 3 way fridges are. And thats the problem.
Bass said
05:02 PM Jan 19, 2022
Got one more thing to do oldbloke will try that. Mate said that there is a slow start fridge that runs of a 1000w inverter that will fit in my space and to look at that before going to 3 way, I have the battery cappacity and already have a 2000w inverter thats used for toaster and hearing aid charger thats all so will check them out also.
joffa61 said
01:15 PM Feb 10, 2022
Hello Bass we have a 210l evakool 12v fridge and have the same problem since day one. 2 x 120ah agm batteries and 340w of solar. Could never keep up with the fridge and everything else so i installed another panel all to no avail. Another vent and a fan all to no avail. Being a fridgie i decided the thermostat was at fault but discovered it wasn't the problem. Did some homework on the fridge (which is not avail anymore because i believe the fridge is too big for the compressor) and found out that the manual indicates the fridge draws about 2.5amps but doing some homework on the danfoss/secop BD50 compressor i know draws about 5 amps @ -20 sst on a 38 deg day which it is where i come from. The -20 sst refers to the suction temp of the refrigerant in the evaperator equating to about -15 in the freezer. The BD50 in the evakool runs at full speed which is 3500rpm and needs to because it is undersized for the fridge. I decided to install a bushman 190l fridge but first rang bushman and asked the amp draw. I was told approx 2.5amps and when i asked what speed they run the BD50 (it has a various speeds depending on how it is setup with diodes) i was told 3500rpm which still equates to 5 amps @ -20. I explained this to the bloke at bushman and he agreed the 2.5amps was @ about 25 ambient. So that ended the bushman installation as i would be nearly back to square one although not completely because the bushman was a smaller fridge and was kinder to the compressor. Still pulling my hair out as you did nearly 2 years down the track i really began to believe that although i had a uneconomical fridge power wise the agm's would never handle it. I researched lithiums and i am glad i did. Installed 2 x 120 ah lithiums and overnight my hair started growing back. I would wake up in the morning with still half or more of the batteries remaining as opposed to no batteries and 11 volts. As we know the agm's don't like to be drawn down deyond 50% and that was the problem. My uneconomical fridge was using about 100 ah a day thus leaving approx 20ah for everything else, whereas the lithiums can be drawn down to almost nothing and still perform. If the fridge used 100ah i was still left with at least 100ah for everything else which is more than enough. All i can say now is "lithiums rock" and the expense was well worth it as i sleep now and no longer get up a 3am to check the battery meter. Hope this helps
joffa61 said
01:17 PM Feb 10, 2022
PS I don't think a 3 way is necessarily a good thing
oldbloke said
08:55 AM Mar 23, 2022
Was there ever a solution found to this by bass?
Bass said
10:49 PM May 4, 2022
Hi guys sorry for the late reply been a bit distracted of late seems cancer may have returned. to the fridge, I have given up worrying about the system I fitted 2x vent fans to the top vent with an isolator switch (Fans being hard wired in) parked at home not in use fans off , using van fans on, this has had some effect and if the fridge drains 3x120A/Hr batteries over night then it will be parked closer to road at home.
Thank you one and all, enjoy your day, Bass
Thank you everybody for advice and putting up with my whining. There is light the end of tunnel.............maybe. lol
Hope you are out of the tunnel before more could be added!
My thoughts too.
Looking like it
Like lead acid which you can draw down 100% occasionally, for extended inclement weather you need to calculate the total AH so you have X number of days up your sleeve before you need to turn the engine to charge.
In theory I have a week.
Any chance of a warranty claim. ?
Don't make the mistake of buying El Cheapo Lithium. There is no gas appliance in my van,and with my solar-powered batteries I am running my AC 24/7 in 35-40 heat,run a microwave,toaster,electric frypan,slow cooker,air fryer,TV,175 litre fridge/freezer, stereo etc etc,and I have NEVER hooked up to 240 or a generator.Do it once,do it well.Good luck,but do NOT not make the mistake of buying El Cheapo. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 12th of October 2021 09:39:37 PM
I've been away camping for a few days without internet, but glad to hear the fault has been found, and it actually sounds like your fridge is quite efficient.
In regards to you purchasing lithium, I would tend to buy 2 batteries of equal Amperage as then if one fails you have one to keep you out of trouble. Make sure you can run the batteries in parallel and wire them up accordingly, and you should get many years of service from them.
I think the biggest/hardest choice now will be what brand to buy, I am relatively new to lithium 12v but it is my belief that if the cells are 3.2v nominal then you only need 4 cells, unlike a lot of these drop in replacement batteries flogged cheaply on the net that contain 28+ cells and a lot of them are way over rated, I noticed in the section on teardown batteries that Whenarewethere showed a victron battery that only had 4 cells, this is in my opinion how a battery should look. I only found one supplier when I was looking for a drop in replacement that had only 4 cells in his batteries but then took the plunge to make my own, which the cells and BMS should arrive in the next week or 2.
So I will keep everyone informed how that goes, as I test the capacity of each cell before assembly (and no I will not be testing the tester
).
-- Edited by peatop on Thursday 14th of October 2021 02:40:26 PM
What is your solar/battery setup. Must be huge (talking to Yobar)
-- Edited by Terryt on Thursday 14th of October 2021 02:56:48 PM
Used to have 9x190 watt Trina panels (1710 watts) but broke a couple on dirt roads.Impossible to get replacements,as they were an older model,and I could not fit physically bigger panels amongst the remaining 190s.Took them all off,and ditched them,but replaced with 6x275 watt Suntech Polys.(1650 watts) In the van I have a 5kw Victron inverter (plus 2kw Victron in car as a totally separate system for beer fridge!) and 540ah Victron Lithium Batteries. (6x90ah). Car has 2x90ah Victron Lithium batteries.Where I presently am travelling,it was 40 degrees yesterday,and again today it is 40 degrees,so I left my 2.5kw MHI AC running all night. Batteries dropped to 88% overnight,and were back at 100% just after 10am. Cheers YobaRR
x2 and I thought I was doing ok now
second thoughts
-- Edited by PeterD on Tuesday 19th of October 2021 01:28:34 PM
Victron make some brilliant inverters and solar controllers but I would not buy Victron batteries because, afaik, Victron do not make batteries so are rebadging another and, I suspect, putting a hefty profit margin on the battery. Find a reputable manufacturer (Powersonic amongst other) and buy their product.
Hey Mike I had a quick look on the EV website and their batteries seem to be worth looking at or investigating as a drop in replacement, although I didn't go much further than looking at the build and price but for around $750 for a 4s 12v it seems ok to investigate for someone going down that path?
Oh wait I just looked again and they use,
" Whats Inside the Box?
One thing that differentiates EV Power from other Lithium battery suppliers is that we know what is in the box and we also tell the client what is in the box. In addition our phone App allows the customer to see exactly what is happening with the cells in the battery. Our EVH batteries use high quality cylindrical cells of the 32700 size format, LiFePO4 3.2V 6Ah. Internally the cells are spot welded in a 20P4S format into a rigid, vibration proof unitary structure. We are aware of a disinformation campaign suggesting that cylindrical cells are inferior to prismatic (box shaped) cells, this is false. We have experience with both cell types over 13 years and the defining factor is the quality of manufacture of cells and battery packs. Tesla Electric Vehicles use cylindrical cells of a similar format."
-- Edited by peatop on Tuesday 19th of October 2021 02:07:06 PM
We had a similar run with dodgy instillation of brake controllers in two seperate tugs. Unbelievable what goes on.
Hope it all works out.
I have done lots of tests on my 28L fridge. The lowest I got it to was -25°C.
When I ran it for 72 hours straight in a heated room at 35°C & sometime heated to 40°C. It had no issues cooling, but I did notice that it generally could only cool to about 45°C below ambient temperature. So if it is 45°C you will only get it down to 0°C.
So in hot environments like a car or the sun hitting the side of the caravan where the fridge is, one could easily have +60°C and the fridge will struggle.
It is clear in very hot ambient temperatures a fridge needs really good air flow through the condenser, good insulation, away from sun and extra heavy wire to the battery to get that last 0.1 volt instead of going up in heat through thin wiring.
So look at the fridges data sheet at how many degree is can reduce by.
One could run water cooling over the condenser. Would be an interesting project.
My sister's yacht has a water cooled heat exchanger fridge. Works really well, amazing how quick they freeze.
My 28L fridge I swapped the original 92mm fan with a 120mm Noctua fan, which had about the same volume of airflow but much lower power consumption.
Since I did all the fridge testing, I swapped the 120mm fan for a new high volume & higher pressure Noctua fan, which being a new generation didn't use much more power but had much better airflow.
Just a reminder, blow the dust out of the condenser. It is amazing how quickly the dust builds up to form a blanket.
This photo has the first 120mm fan I installed. There is an air gun on the end of blue air hose. Also since this photo have upgraded the air system from 90psi to 135psi, only for short periods but nevertheless very handy to clean dust out, have a second air tank which helps. The fridge motor area was filthy only after 3 months traveling.
Hello Bass we have a 210l evakool 12v fridge and have the same problem since day one. 2 x 120ah agm batteries and 340w of solar. Could never keep up with the fridge and everything else so i installed another panel all to no avail. Another vent and a fan all to no avail. Being a fridgie i decided the thermostat was at fault but discovered it wasn't the problem. Did some homework on the fridge (which is not avail anymore because i believe the fridge is too big for the compressor) and found out that the manual indicates the fridge draws about 2.5amps but doing some homework on the danfoss/secop BD50 compressor i know draws about 5 amps @ -20 sst on a 38 deg day which it is where i come from. The -20 sst refers to the suction temp of the refrigerant in the evaperator equating to about -15 in the freezer. The BD50 in the evakool runs at full speed which is 3500rpm and needs to because it is undersized for the fridge. I decided to install a bushman 190l fridge but first rang bushman and asked the amp draw. I was told approx 2.5amps and when i asked what speed they run the BD50 (it has a various speeds depending on how it is setup with diodes) i was told 3500rpm which still equates to 5 amps @ -20. I explained this to the bloke at bushman and he agreed the 2.5amps was @ about 25 ambient. So that ended the bushman installation as i would be nearly back to square one although not completely because the bushman was a smaller fridge and was kinder to the compressor. Still pulling my hair out as you did nearly 2 years down the track i really began to believe that although i had a uneconomical fridge power wise the agm's would never handle it. I researched lithiums and i am glad i did. Installed 2 x 120 ah lithiums and overnight my hair started growing back. I would wake up in the morning with still half or more of the batteries remaining as opposed to no batteries and 11 volts. As we know the agm's don't like to be drawn down deyond 50% and that was the problem. My uneconomical fridge was using about 100 ah a day thus leaving approx 20ah for everything else, whereas the lithiums can be drawn down to almost nothing and still perform. If the fridge used 100ah i was still left with at least 100ah for everything else which is more than enough. All i can say now is "lithiums rock" and the expense was well worth it as i sleep now and no longer get up a 3am to check the battery meter. Hope this helps
Thank you one and all, enjoy your day, Bass