I don't think we should have to pay to SEE our own country, irrespective of who owns it. Camping is a slightly different matter, if services are provided, IF we need to use them.
'National' Parks (read 'State' Parks) in some States are treated as profit centres.WA is possibly the worst, with very significant 'ENTRY' fees charged to popular parks.
In NT on the other hand, (and much or all of Victoria?), ENTRY to National Parks is FREE (except for Uluru, for 'different' reasons). Kakadu (which is Commonwealth controlled, NOT State) is free entry. This is possibly the most visited National Park in Australia. There are even free campsites (providing toilets only). Campsites with showers plus other amenities carry an appropriate charge. Which you use is your choice. That's the way it should be IMHO.
Cheers, Peter
Basil Faulty said
11:32 AM Oct 13, 2008
I tend to agree, In the ACT we have some National parks and all are free, even free facilities in some but Camping is charged for simply for the hot showers etc and I guess it's a fair situation. The ACT Rangers generally are a helpful group and from my experience seem to have their jobs because they are suited to them. From my experience in NSW it is a diiferent situation entirely, the NP&WS is definatley a profit making concern, the Rangers have powers that one expects to find only in military dictatorships with the power to sieze vehicles and equipement if you are breaking the "rules" along with very substantial on the spot fines that seem only to be applied at times of peak visitation. The Royal National Park near Sydney used to be a great place to relax when I lived in Sydney (many years ago, when I was young and charming - we used to ride there on our bicycles with girlfrinds and "enjoy the isolation") these days its just a money making exercise. You can on weekends get there by real vintage tram from Sutherland on the park link service, Id reccome3nd it because finding a car park when you get there is near impossible http://www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/routes.html something that brings back memeories.... The Kosiosko NP is another story completley, that is the "Ripp Off Totalle" of all NP's, fully commercialised and extortionatley priced in winter because there is "SNOW" there but the parts where there is no snow are free.... As a TPI I get a card that gives me free access to most NP's, Uluru and Kosiosko (in winter) excluded. Personally if I use facilities I'm prepared to pay a sensible fee, I don't consider driving along a very poorly made road that in some cases requires 4 wheel drive to have a picnic or a swim at a beach "using" facilities, but camping/holidaying and showering etc are, someone has to pay for the squillions of super feet of CCA treated pine logs used by the NP&WS I guess. In NSW we also have State recreation areas (SRA) and "forests" that we are encouraged to use for recreation and they are free and you can take your dog, cat or canary as long as they are under control and these are a more "friendly" environment than a NP where you are scared to relieve yourself for fear of being harrassed by a Ranger in a NP. http://www.forest.nsw.gov.au/publication/forest_facts/recreation_vehicles/default.asp Interesting topic.....
twobob said
10:15 PM Oct 13, 2008
Kakadu is NOT free. A vistor is "encouraged" to drop into the "pay office" on entry. If same is not paid, NPW officers can check you at the many camp sites. When I was there this was a bit lazy, but as the times change to pay, I am sure these same officers will be forced to do a real check.
I as with most post, do not have trouble with paying for "services" provided, but where there are no services, why should I pay to see my country.
I balance this with the knowedge of knowing there are few, that make problems for most. I visited a local waterhole here near Rocky. Some "B", has decided to relieve themselves (#2), at the trunk of a tree. No Dig, just leave it as they finished, paper and all!!!, within cooee of the main spot - hard to miss.
Its the same old problem, a few stuff it up for the normally considerate majority.
drongo & wendy said
07:44 AM Oct 14, 2008
G,day On paying for use of NPs, if going over MT HOTHAM during the ski season a fee applies using the GREAT ALPINE RD. But if not stopping on the MT no fee applies, if u stop to use toilets ect u can be fined. Toilets ect, Harrietville on one side Omeo on the other
Basil Faulty said
10:38 AM Oct 14, 2008
drongo & wendy wrote:
G,day On paying for use of NPs, if going over MT HOTHAM during the ski season a fee applies using the GREAT ALPINE RD. But if not stopping on the MT no fee applies, if u stop to use toilets ect u can be fined. Toilets ect, Harrietville on one side Omeo on the other
No doubt if you went in the snow you could expect incarceration for life but only 7 years if you took out the person who sprung you going in the snow....
Wombat 280 said
03:36 PM Oct 14, 2008
In NSW pensioners can apply for an all parks pass and it's free. If you want to camp then its an everyone pays the site fee situation .
Many campers have noticed that the space available for camping in NSW NP's is becoming rather limited and facilities if you can call them that are extremely basic.
Not sure but the Dark Greens seem to have taken over NSW NP and if they get their way you will be looking through the wire fence at the bush .
Not that I'm a lover of the USA or their way of life but we could do worst than follow their model in managing NP's, at least they encourage entry and provide all weather sealed access right up to the points of interest. The US and Canada believe that the seniors of or community have paid over the years to create and maintain these parks and realize that not all have undergone SAS combat training to enable them to access a look out position.
Granted when the DH's get into our NP's hooning around and just breaking up things because they can it a hard pill to swallow, the coppers feel this type of crime is just a social inconvenience and refuse to follow up concrete evidence as to who did it.
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:41 PM Oct 14, 2008
twobob wrote:
Kakadu is NOT free. A vistor is "encouraged" to drop into the "pay office" on entry. If same is not paid, NPW officers can check you at the many camp sites. When I was there this was a bit lazy, but as the times change to pay, I am sure these same officers will be forced to do a real check.
Wobat 280, does the free permit for NSW apply just for NSW pensioners, or all states, do you know? Good information. Thanks.
Cheers, Peter
twobob said
08:11 PM Oct 14, 2008
Pete
I will take your word on that, no need for me to check the web address.
it was a farce in the first place. Only the gullible paid to start with. I lived in Jabiru (town of Kakadu), and we were given exception, but not if we had visitors. Never paid a cent!
kakadu is over rated. Too see it, you must live there, and have knowledge. The wet lands in the wet season, from an airboat, cannot be matched. Most tourist only see it in the dry, as during the wet, it is not accessible.
Litchfield park is better, but it has changed.
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:19 PM Oct 14, 2008
twobob wrote:
Pete I will take your word on that, no need for me to check the web address.
it was a farce in the first place. Only the gullible paid to start with. I lived in Jabiru (town of Kakadu), and we were given exception, but not if we had visitors. Never paid a cent!
kakadu is over rated. Too see it, you must live there, and have knowledge. The wet lands in the wet season, from an airboat, cannot be matched. Most tourist only see it in the dry, as during the wet, it is not accessible.
Litchfield park is better, but it has changed.
(My emphasis) I reccon that goes for most places, twobob. No doubt that you are right about the wet too. One of my unsatisfied ambitions. Margaret really enjoyed Litchfield because of the swimming available. I disliked the crowds.
Cheers, Peter
Wombat 280 said
08:31 PM Oct 16, 2008
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
twobob wrote:
Kakadu is NOT free. A vistor is "encouraged" to drop into the "pay office" on entry. If same is not paid, NPW officers can check you at the many camp sites. When I was there this was a bit lazy, but as the times change to pay, I am sure these same officers will be forced to do a real check.
Wobat 280, does the free permit for NSW apply just for NSW pensioners, or all states, do you know? Good information. Thanks.
Cheers, Peter
Not sure on the status of interstate pensioners by will check it out and let you know .
It always amazes me that how they are call National Parks and use up a lot of tax dollars provided by the Feds but they are state controlled and only employ those Dark Green people . In NSW we have NP's and State Reserves NP. I think NP stands for NO People or Pets while in the state reserves you can camp take your hound, unless sign posted otherwise, and really enjoy the experince. Either way they all cost a lot of tax payer dollars to ensure we mere mortals can't get walk on the grass or smell the flowers. The freebie pass is great when you go to the snow fields otherwise it's $24 per day just to drive up to the snow, after you reach the snow that's when the real charges hit home .
Agree with the wet season in the NT , have flown heaps of hours over the NT and really enjoy the changes the wet brings. When I get the time I will post some pics of the changes I've managed to capture.
twobob said
08:44 PM Oct 16, 2008
Wombat Post the photo's, most who have visited KNP, will not believe them. My job in Kakadu, was such, in the wet I had to fly in to certain spots. As I knew the pilots, they would do the over fly's, and it is incredible. Just like the promo's they use to sucker people in to start with.
For travellers that get to KNP in the wet: Take the tourist flights, just magic
dave06 said
10:51 AM Oct 17, 2008
I will pay a reasonable price for seeing our natural wonders if (1) they are looked after (2) they have facilities (3) if the cost is directly corealated to the ammount of amenities that are presented, (no ameniaties, no cost) I dont mind not being able to get to the far reaches of national parks, just knowing they are there is enough, we have seen kakadu but not the interior, we have seen the kimberleys but not the interior, but one gets the "spirit of place" feeling, the aborigines call it sacred ground, I agree, we dont have to walk on every bit of australia or boat on it or fly over it, leave it alone, let it do its own thing as it has for millions of years, just to know it is there is enough, leave the magic for imagination and the freedom of animals, we own the properties, bought by grants, we own the ameniaties, bought by grants our money built the structures, and to have to pay on top as well hurts a bit, but as long as they survive then I am a happy man, but what really hurts is to see the gestapo (wildlife officers) not caring about the weeds or feral animals, not emptying the rubbish bins, not replacing endangered wildlife or protecting it in the first place, watching the march of the cane toads, but chasing up the day pass tickets and watching that people are paying the correct ammount at all times, this is why I refuse to "volunteer" my labour, because bottom line they dont give a fat rats ass about the places they fence off and charge admission for, if it wasnt for the money generated and shot straight through to government coffers it would be left to die. once something has a monetary value it is "protected" to a certain extent, take that value away. in come the developers and it is lost to the commomn people
Wombat 280 said
11:24 PM Oct 17, 2008
dave06 wrote:
I will pay a reasonable price for seeing our natural wonders if (1) they are looked after (2) they have facilities (3) if the cost is directly corealated to the ammount of amenities that are presented, (no ameniaties, no cost) I dont mind not being able to get to the far reaches of national parks, just knowing they are there is enough, we have seen kakadu but not the interior, we have seen the kimberleys but not the interior, but one gets the "spirit of place" feeling, the aborigines call it sacred ground, I agree, we dont have to walk on every bit of australia or boat on it or fly over it, leave it alone, let it do its own thing as it has for millions of years, just to know it is there is enough, leave the magic for imagination and the freedom of animals, we own the properties, bought by grants, we own the ameniaties, bought by grants our money built the structures, and to have to pay on top as well hurts a bit, but as long as they survive then I am a happy man, but what really hurts is to see the gestapo (wildlife officers) not caring about the weeds or feral animals, not emptying the rubbish bins, not replacing endangered wildlife or protecting it in the first place, watching the march of the cane toads, but chasing up the day pass tickets and watching that people are paying the correct ammount at all times, this is why I refuse to "volunteer" my labour, because bottom line they dont give a fat rats ass about the places they fence off and charge admission for, if it wasnt for the money generated and shot straight through to government coffers it would be left to die. once something has a monetary value it is "protected" to a certain extent, take that value away. in come the developers and it is lost to the commomn people
I understand where you are coming from . The problem I see and have witnessed is that the NP's have gone completely academic in their hiring of staff , gone are the days where parks rangers did anything remotely like clear the bins or wash out a shower block or clean a BBQ. Today unless you come with a degree in some obscure environmental science ypou have a snow balls chance in hell of getting a start .
In my area alone they actually fenced off two popular swimming holes and camp sites to remove the cost of providing day labour from the operating budget. removing three labours ,three vehicles from the operational side of parks management . A week later 5 positions were advertised in the government gazette for chairborne division clerks in the main office hence the essential field operators were lost. The only thing to come out of NP's in recent is the Fat Cats well dressed at 4.30
Camping is a slightly different matter, if services are provided, IF we need to use them.
'National' Parks (read 'State' Parks) in some States are treated as profit centres.WA is possibly the worst, with very significant 'ENTRY' fees charged to popular parks.
In NT on the other hand, (and much or all of Victoria?), ENTRY to National Parks is FREE (except for Uluru, for 'different' reasons).
Kakadu (which is Commonwealth controlled, NOT State) is free entry. This is possibly the most visited National Park in Australia. There are even free campsites (providing toilets only). Campsites with showers plus other amenities carry an appropriate charge.
Which you use is your choice. That's the way it should be IMHO.
Cheers,
Peter
The Kosiosko NP is another story completley, that is the "Ripp Off Totalle" of all NP's, fully commercialised and extortionatley priced in winter because there is "SNOW" there but the parts where there is no snow are free....
As a TPI I get a card that gives me free access to most NP's, Uluru and Kosiosko (in winter) excluded.
Personally if I use facilities I'm prepared to pay a sensible fee, I don't consider driving along a very poorly made road that in some cases requires 4 wheel drive to have a picnic or a swim at a beach "using" facilities, but camping/holidaying and showering etc are, someone has to pay for the squillions of super feet of CCA treated pine logs used by the NP&WS I guess.
In NSW we also have State recreation areas (SRA) and "forests" that we are encouraged to use for recreation and they are free and you can take your dog, cat or canary as long as they are under control and these are a more "friendly" environment than a NP where you are scared to relieve yourself for fear of being harrassed by a Ranger in a NP. http://www.forest.nsw.gov.au/publication/forest_facts/recreation_vehicles/default.asp
Interesting topic.....
I as with most post, do not have trouble with paying for "services" provided, but where there are no services, why should I pay to see my country.
I balance this with the knowedge of knowing there are few, that make problems for most. I visited a local waterhole here near Rocky. Some "B", has decided to relieve themselves (#2), at the trunk of a tree. No Dig, just leave it as they finished, paper and all!!!, within cooee of the main spot - hard to miss.
Its the same old problem, a few stuff it up for the normally considerate majority.
On paying for use of NPs, if going over MT HOTHAM during the ski season a fee applies using the GREAT ALPINE RD.
But if not stopping on the MT no fee applies, if u stop to use toilets ect u can be fined. Toilets ect, Harrietville on one side Omeo on the other
http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/kakadu/visitor-information/park-fees.html
I hope it is a trend, but I doubt it!
Wobat 280, does the free permit for NSW apply just for NSW pensioners, or all states, do you know? Good information. Thanks.
Cheers,
Peter
I reccon that goes for most places, twobob.
No doubt that you are right about the wet too. One of my unsatisfied ambitions.
Margaret really enjoyed Litchfield because of the swimming available. I disliked the crowds.
Cheers,
Peter
Not sure on the status of interstate pensioners by will check it out and let you know .
It always amazes me that how they are call National Parks and use up a lot of tax dollars provided by the Feds but they are state controlled and only employ those Dark Green people . In NSW we have NP's and State Reserves NP. I think NP stands for NO People or Pets while in the state reserves you can camp take your hound, unless sign posted otherwise, and really enjoy the experince. Either way they all cost a lot of tax payer dollars to ensure we mere mortals can't get walk on the grass or smell the flowers. The freebie pass is great when you go to the snow fields otherwise it's $24 per day just to drive up to the snow, after you reach the snow that's when the real charges hit home .
Agree with the wet season in the NT , have flown heaps of hours over the NT and really enjoy the changes the wet brings. When I get the time I will post some pics of the changes I've managed to capture.
Post the photo's, most who have visited KNP, will not believe them. My job in Kakadu, was such, in the wet I had to fly in to certain spots. As I knew the pilots, they would do the over fly's, and it is incredible. Just like the promo's they use to sucker people in to start with.
For travellers that get to KNP in the wet: Take the tourist flights, just magic
In my area alone they actually fenced off two popular swimming holes and camp sites to remove the cost of providing day labour from the operating budget. removing three labours ,three vehicles from the operational side of parks management . A week later 5 positions were advertised in the government gazette for chairborne division clerks in the main office hence the essential field operators were lost. The only thing to come out of NP's in recent is the Fat Cats well dressed at 4.30
-- Edited by Wombat 280 at 23:28, 2008-10-17