If I am reading the market correctly, now or soon will be a reasonable time to invest. I have a little cash to invest, but have held on to it, but that is no good, sitting in the bank.
I have had property, but feel the share market is the better option, for me. I am inclined to managed funds, as its too much hassle direct dealing. Not that keen on super funds though, hate locking my money away.
So any advice on what works for you, suggestions of a good fund, or investment. Maybe just your thoughts on when to invest.
Wombat 280 said
07:54 PM Apr 12, 2009
If you don't need the interest to live your lifestyle then leave it where it is. Regardless of what the "experts" say I believe this is a long way from over. I'd rather be late in than get an arse kicking . With all funds you give to someone else to manage they get the buzz while playing with your money and still walk away with a profit from the fees even if you go down the drain. If you can't find the time manage it yourself then don't play.
Look around you don't see money managers riding push bikes they still make a very comfortable profit out of fees.
Rule one of investing "If you can't afford to lose it then don't play"
Rule two "Stay away from O/S holdings" we haven't seen the worse of that yet by a long shot
Heard today that Kleenmaid a mob who make white goods in OZ is in the hole for $67 million , how does a company get that far in the Do Do before the investors and creditors start banging down doors . I'll bet the CEO's super is safe
Basil Faulty said
08:08 PM Apr 12, 2009
Super is still the best investment, depends on how you choose to invest your super. You can choose from a "cash rate to very agressive" the more agressively you invest your super the greater the gain but the more volatile the market. It has the one great advantage that it is TAX FREE. Not all super funds have been frozen only the one I have my super in.
dave06 said
08:12 PM Apr 12, 2009
yep I'd agree with all that wombat has said, not that I know anything about it but the only thing that I could see making any money over a long term is real estate, but if you place the dough in term investment with a bank, then interest over 8% can easily be achieved with supposedly no risk and thats not bad
real estate (city housing) is currently yielding between 9% and 10% some places higher but that is more long term, ten years average, our house has supposedly risen 250% in the 25 years that we have been here, but the proof is in the sale isnt it, asking price doesnt always equal sale price does it
but as I said I know nothing of investments or money matters but if it was my money then these would be the options that I would look at, money in the bank is safe (supposedly) and real estate one can always go and have a look at it, I like things I can see and touch
and like wombat I dont think we have seen anywhere near the worst of the meltdown by anymeans
Ma said
08:21 PM Apr 12, 2009
One thing I've found over the years is that if you don't want the stress etc., of doing the investments yourself, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THE FINANCIAL ADVISER.
I invested in bricks and motar many years ago, quite heavily, and boy did I get burnt. Get the wrong tenants in and it costs more to do the repairs than it's worth and even putting in people you know doesn't always pay off either. Some don't pay the rent and with the Tenancy Agreements of today, the landlord is at a distinct disadvantage.
But then that's just me, I know many people who have had real estate pay off very well in the long term.
I have had my financial lady for some 20 years now and she's really done right by me.
Current situation has not affected me all that much and because of my age now I have access to my money as and when I want it. It's all down to trust.
Wombat 280 said
09:06 PM Apr 12, 2009
Ma wrote:
One thing I've found over the years is that if you don't want the stress etc., of doing the investments yourself, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THE FINANCIAL ADVISER.
I invested in bricks and motar many years ago, quite heavily, and boy did I get burnt. Get the wrong tenants in and it costs more to do the repairs than it's worth and even putting in people you know doesn't always pay off either. Some don't pay the rent and with the Tenancy Agreements of today, the landlord is at a distinct disadvantage.
But then that's just me, I know many people who have had real estate pay off very well in the long term.
I have had my financial lady for some 20 years now and she's really done right by me.
Current situation has not affected me all that much and because of my age now I have access to my money as and when I want it. It's all down to trust.
Sorry can't agree with knowing your adviser , Doesn't matter , friend, good buddies and especially family or family friends when it comes to financial matters everyone is in for their cut and if that means you not getting a cut then so be it . Ask the financial adviser next time your funds go down just how much he/she had in it with you, Surprise surprise Nothing I hear you say.
Term investment is a good lineif over 8% as is property, like storage sheds, boat marinas, caravan storage yard outside the city limits. In NSW anywhere north of Newcastle. Flats and houses present high risk as rentals especially in today's job climate and as you said the Landlord Act favours the tenant. Fortunately the Act doesn't effect any of the above storage facilities . Don't Pay Don't get entry and the gear inside is mine to auction in due course .. Storage Facilities are a licence to print money with minimal risk and bugger all effort especially if you put in an on site manager residence or live on site yourself.
Number One Rule always applies Can't afford to lose Don't play
-- Edited by Wombat 280 on Sunday 12th of April 2009 09:08:19 PM
Ma said
09:12 PM Apr 12, 2009
In this instance Wombat you are just a tad off base. My lady HAS got some of her money in some of the same investments that she has mine in AND AS WELL she has invested some of her father's money in the same.
I was referring to housing real estate in my last comment. Perhaps should have explained myself a little better.
twobob said
11:01 PM Apr 12, 2009
Thanks, so far, I think
Wombat is right and wrong. Do not invest if you can not afford to, and not O/S. The bank is the poorest place to have money in, historically. I also agree with him re Advisers, they are human, and get caught, like the rest of us. At the end of the day, you have to trust someone, with better knowledge than yourself - right or wrong.
He also pointed to storage sheds, so i looked, as it is a good thought. Nah, not likely to find $4m needed. I will look further in this area.
Right now Bonds are the "hot property", but I think, as with banks, the interest rate is going throught the floor.
Property, is prone to bad debt and expense, and from my experience, not much good as a return, but has tax benefits. Not very liquid though.
Super, well I have a soap box about it. At retirement, there is no to little reason to have it. It is the same as a full managed fund, but with contraints on its investments, thus limiting its potential, AND your money is locked away. They also keep changing the goal posts with it. A lot of managed funds had the gate shut, to protect the fund, during this meltdown, including Super funds.
A lots of the posts seem to believe that there is a LOT more to come. Anything in particular, give you this thought? in particular LOTS
Wombat 280 said
11:02 AM Apr 13, 2009
twobob wrote:
Thanks, so far, I think
Wombat is right and wrong. Do not invest if you can not afford to, and not O/S. The bank is the poorest place to have money in, historically. I also agree with him re Advisers, they are human, and get caught, like the rest of us. At the end of the day, you have to trust someone, with better knowledge than yourself - right or wrong.
He also pointed to storage sheds, so i looked, as it is a good thought. Nah, not likely to find $4m needed. I will look further in this area.
Right now Bonds are the "hot property", but I think, as with banks, the interest rate is going throught the floor.
Property, is prone to bad debt and expense, and from my experience, not much good as a return, but has tax benefits. Not very liquid though.
Super, well I have a soap box about it. At retirement, there is no to little reason to have it. It is the same as a full managed fund, but with contraints on its investments, thus limiting its potential, AND your money is locked away. They also keep changing the goal posts with it. A lot of managed funds had the gate shut, to protect the fund, during this meltdown, including Super funds.
A lots of the posts seem to believe that there is a LOT more to come. Anything in particular, give you this thought? in particular LOTS
Note, Japan tried to buy it's way out of recession -Failed
Unemployment figures are the key indicator of any measure of recovery if they drop get into the market, no good been in if no one can afford what your offering
China is yet to feel the full force but has purchased outright a lot of raw resources in other places to help hold it's manufacturing operating cost down. No good money return in letting someone dig a hole in your yard and then sell the dirt back to you , what they do spend here is mere petty cash in terms of returns to OZ , does help with employment in the low end trades . Not too many OZ CEO's running O/S companies in OZ . Can't even find one for Telstra
OZ produces raw resources by the boat load but has failed to value add by enhancing the end product, we produce nothing of value to the rest of the world. Yes we are in the grain market but with other massive producers who are on very large government handouts to keep farming . The only time we make money off our produce is when the big players are hit with drought , pest or war
If we take Japan India and USA out of the equation there aren't too many if any big players our there who want anything in large enough qualities from us and then it's all geared to the balance of trade payments
We currently have mining giants selling there product to China for about 30% less than it costs to get it out of the ground all in the hope it will turn around , how long can that last. At days end China will by the company and control the flow to the market
Unfortunately it's pretty gloomy out there at the moment so sit tight it will turn, when I don't know
-- Edited by Wombat 280 on Monday 13th of April 2009 11:28:08 AM
twobob said
02:38 PM Apr 13, 2009
Thanks Wombat for that
I have never really understood why Japan is of so much importance, more so today, than 20 yrs ago. The emerging countries are of more importance, and as you say, China is pivotal. I would. like you, love to see our Govn get back to manufacturing. To me, it brings security, independence and strength. I think the unions caused most of the problem there. Maybe today they can work more closely with business, and we can regain this sector.
I am thinking in another way.
We should always learn from history, although its never exactly the same. The last two depressions, are my thought here. If this is like the earlier one, then we have several years to go. If like the last, then another year to go. I think the difference between then and now, is the communication age, population and world markets. These have improved for this one.
Also in this one, the world Govn got together, and did as much as possible to slow this one at an early stage.
The markets reflect "sentiment", not necessarily the underlying companies. Sure a lot of companies are doing worst now than before, due to lower demand, but of the good ones, they have cut back in line with this. They are still good companies, with something to sell.
Also, their share price is now equal to the last recession (generally), but most still pay a dividend. This is saying to me, get in now, and wait. I expect nothing immediately, but would like to bargain hunt. Just the last month had a 15% increase, though this is no real indicator. I was also thinking of buy averaging - hedging, so use half now and the other, when a firm direction is layed out.
my twobobs worth
Cruising Granny said
05:12 PM Apr 13, 2009
I don't have much but I invested in term deposits through the bank I have been a customer with for more than 50 years. I think they're more accountable than some adviser down the road who's hard to do a check on. The credibility and credentials are almost impossible to find.
At least the bank is accountable.
Don't do anything with shares unless you understand that market.
I have been advised my funds are frozen, but at least I didn't lose any of my capital. Many of my friends have lost most of their investment capital.
Work with the source you know and trust. It's your cash and you have every right to know where it's going, and how it's going to grow.
Nothing is easy at the moment, so if you can put it into a bank account with fixed interest for the short term might be the safest, without paying monthly fees. eg ANZ V2 Plus. Keep a minimum of $5,000, no fees. It was paying 5% before the crash, but it's down to 2% at the moment. But at least it's safe for the time being.
Other banks have similar accounts. Worth a look until things settle down a bit.
I'm a safe investor but I'm not an expert. Cheers Chris
Wombat 280 said
05:39 PM Apr 13, 2009
twobob wrote:
Thanks Wombat for that
I have never really understood why Japan is of so much importance, more so today, than 20 yrs ago. The emerging countries are of more importance, and as you say, China is pivotal. I would. like you, love to see our Govn get back to manufacturing. To me, it brings security, independence and strength. I think the unions caused most of the problem there. Maybe today they can work more closely with business, and we can regain this sector.
I am thinking in another way.
We should always learn from history, although its never exactly the same. The last two depressions, are my thought here. If this is like the earlier one, then we have several years to go. If like the last, then another year to go. I think the difference between then and now, is the communication age, population and world markets. These have improved for this one.
Also in this one, the world Govn got together, and did as much as possible to slow this one at an early stage.
The markets reflect "sentiment", not necessarily the underlying companies. Sure a lot of companies are doing worst now than before, due to lower demand, but of the good ones, they have cut back in line with this. They are still good companies, with something to sell.
Also, their share price is now equal to the last recession (generally), but most still pay a dividend. This is saying to me, get in now, and wait. I expect nothing immediately, but would like to bargain hunt. Just the last month had a 15% increase, though this is no real indicator. I was also thinking of buy averaging - hedging, so use half now and the other, when a firm direction is layed out.
my twobobs worth
Just be careful about sudden rises in mineral resource markets sometimes this is due to the parent company flogging off an under performing asset or buying an asset from another company that's on the way out . Regardless of who's selling or buying there is still a slow product market out there because of fears about job security . Check the retail sector as an indicator of the workers purchase power it's at a low point and indicating further down
As they now realize the Govt can use the bankcard to buy itself out of the hole but someone has to eventually pay down the track and with Big Kev out their selling off the farm to O/S interest we will own or control very little from which to earn an income to pay the bill . I believe we will be on the edge of this giant hole Kev has dug for awhile yet .
Kev as Bob and Paul did before him has failed to understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch in business even if you do speak Chinese and use chop sticks .
Be careful with whom you place your hard earnt money it's to hard to come by
Marken Time said
10:12 PM Apr 13, 2009
An excellent question to start a post Bob.
This is betting too in depth for my mind but I have my thoughts.
To my way of thinking it is perhaps the worst time in about sixty years to make an investment decision, and | agree with other posts, it will probably get worse.
With term deposits only paying 4% or so and then there is perhaps tax to pay from the income this isn't going to provide much growth.
Property - has it reached the bottom - it has always been said that the best property investment is your home, you get back what you put in and any profit is tax free.
Shares - how big a gambler are you. Perhaps looking a blue chips may be the best option, but even some of these have fallen by 40 or 50% in the last 12 months. Even the banks have fallen significantly and perhaps with the end of financial year approaching they may fall further as they consider bad debt provisions.
There are some good tax advantages in super and allocated pensions, but again the short term return will not be good.
China may be best placed to withstand the depression and the way they are going they will have a stranglehold on raw materials before too long, but then ythey do rely on the rest of the world to buy the finished product - if they cann't but where does it end up.
Perhaps under the matress is the best thing at the moment, I'm just glad that I don't have any cash to worry about..........
dave06 said
10:20 AM Apr 14, 2009
well the big end of town is buying gold and paintings and works of art, no shortage of money in their pockets, me I'll stick with bricks and mortar
twobob said
01:24 PM Apr 14, 2009
Maybe I should explain my understanding of investing money. Doing so, helps me understand myself better.
I really think we should be taught at school about using money, not have to go through life, and get to this end, to learn about it from lifes lessions. Money is of no value unless it is working FOR you.
We all work hard to get money, use it to aquire a lifestyle, and hopefully a reasonable retirement
If you place your money under the mattress, it is a lose, as it reduces by inflation.
If it is saved in the bank, then we only get the difference between the income minus inflation, minus tax. Right now that is as close to zero as possible.
If you rent, you help to pay someone elses morgage.
If you borrow, then it is possible to make a little ie the difference of the cost and the sale. This can be houses or shares, or indeed whatever. The only way to ensure a possible profit, is to hold the investment for a long time. Always being aware of when to unload the investment
If you have saved, and invest, then depending on your timing of sale, you make good money.
I have invested in both shares and "bricks n mortor" and prefer shares. Both return about 10%, but BNM have a huge cost associated ie rates, insurance and maintenance. They are not that liquid, and another big cost to unload. Shares are at the mercy of the market, but are very liquid.
Most of us will have borrowed for a home. Most will also have a share fund, via super. Our home and super fund, are a lifestyle and not considered an investment, but indeed they are. We have all seen their value rise and fall, but as they are not for sale, we do not overly concern ourselves about it. The BNM (home) investment was installed in us as kids, by our parents. This is not incorrect, but who taught them about investments. Have we been given all the information.
Right now it is easy to kick shares, but this was not true 18 months ago, nor will it be in 18 months time. I am not saying this is the bottom, who knows.
The big end of town know all of this, but they can afford good advise and the risk. They just move their money around, keep it working. We do not have that, nor the money, but to ignore it all together, does not help yourself.
Everything is about "risk and reward". Knowledge (not impressions) helps to reduce risk, and knowledge helps to evaluate possible reward.
Right now I am trying to use my knowledge, and others (you here) to come to a conclusion. The more opinions the better for me.
Wombat 280 said
10:24 PM Apr 14, 2009
At our age I just spend it and to hell with it . Every day your feet hit the floor is a bonus and another opportunity to go spend the kids inheritance . Once thought I was saving to provide my kids with a better life but I now look at the kids and grand kids and realize they already have it so good they don't need my money.
Once worked with a Chinese doctor who said that when we are born we should have access to anything and everything we want that makes us enjoy our life to the fullest and just pay it off over our life time. His rationale behind this hypothesis was "we work hard and struggle through life to old age and when having reached old age we no longer have the health or inclination to do the things money allows"
I now know what he meant and regret that I didn't follow all the advice freely given by this wise old man.
If you haven't seen the show Bucket List then you must, I think the old Chinese fellow I knew wrote the script
mike and Judy said
07:13 AM Apr 15, 2009
I agree with Wombat, my kids are all well set up and my little bit wont make much difference to them
Went to sell some Kruger Rands the other day, 3 dealers , 3 prices, seems even the experts dont know how far down it will go,
dave06 said
10:15 AM Apr 15, 2009
thank christ for that, I thought I was the only one that had no investments and basically give all my money away, I work and save for holidays, we work hard then we take a break,
we have people here nearly all the time and that costs a lot but I am not giving that up
we work for ourselves now not like the old days when the bills used to frighten hell out of us not knowing how we were going to pay the bloody things
my kids and grandkids have absolutely everything they could ever wish for, our house resembles something out of better homes and gardens (well not the gardens) the dragon has everything that opens and closes, me too, we have new vehicles or close to it, except little blue and shes better than new anyway
we support every charity known to mankind and then some, my son could buy and sell me in an instant if he wished so he doesnt want my money, what else is there
quantas is selling a few aircraft, what do you reckon Basil turn them into flower bombers and go and strafe a few guvvy buildings!!!
mike and Judy said
06:57 PM Apr 15, 2009
Agree with the flower bombers, there is a black orchid up here that has the odour of month old dead meat , and it hangs on to what ever it touches,
USE IT USE IT
twobob said
09:14 PM Apr 15, 2009
hey, I should let this thread die, as what I set out to achieve, has not been completely achieved. Where the fun in that, if not only for the posts, to read
I agree with most, if not all. Wombat has had the best to say. Love his Chinese fellow, and could not agree more.
Stuff the kids, yes, -- spend it all - I with you.
What i thought was to undertake a successful GN lifestyle, we need to take care of business ie your money.
Sure save it and spend it - great - but that is positioned on earning it to start with. Need to have a job - stuff that - have we not earnt this lifestyle
I want party time, all the time. Mind you party time finishes at 10 pm nowdays.
Some on here have, or talk about, selling up and going. Thats the trigger for this topic. What do you do with the cash.
It would not take much to realise that at sometime, we all will need to park up, but if what we have done with the cash, kept us on the road, then it will see us out, as well. Leaving next to nil for the kids.
At the end of the day, i was never looking to make money as such, just travelling costs. When i know what my income is, i know what travelling I can do.
mike and Judy said
06:56 AM Apr 16, 2009
Already know what my base line is,----the pension,--- any over and I can go to the pictures and buy a box of jaffas, now aint that living high?
I invested in bricks and motar many years ago, quite heavily, and boy did I get burnt. Get the wrong tenants in and it costs more to do the repairs than it's worth and even putting in people you know doesn't always pay off either. Some don't pay the rent and with the Tenancy Agreements of today, the landlord is at a distinct disadvantage.
But then that's just me, I know many people who have had real estate pay off very well in the long term.
I have had my financial lady for some 20 years now and she's really done right by me.
Current situation has not affected me all that much and because of my age now I have access to my money as and when I want it. It's all down to trust.
Term investment is a good lineif over 8% as is property, like storage sheds, boat marinas, caravan storage yard outside the city limits. In NSW anywhere north of Newcastle. Flats and houses present high risk as rentals especially in today's job climate and as you said the Landlord Act favours the tenant. Fortunately the Act doesn't effect any of the above storage facilities . Don't Pay Don't get entry and the gear inside is mine to auction in due course .. Storage Facilities are a licence to print money with minimal risk and bugger all effort especially if you put in an on site manager residence or live on site yourself.
Number One Rule always applies Can't afford to lose Don't play
-- Edited by Wombat 280 on Sunday 12th of April 2009 09:08:19 PM
I was referring to housing real estate in my last comment. Perhaps should have explained myself a little better.
Note, Japan tried to buy it's way out of recession -Failed
Unemployment figures are the key indicator of any measure of recovery if they drop get into the market, no good been in if no one can afford what your offering
China is yet to feel the full force but has purchased outright a lot of raw resources in other places to help hold it's manufacturing operating cost down. No good money return in letting someone dig a hole in your yard and then sell the dirt back to you , what they do spend here is mere petty cash in terms of returns to OZ , does help with employment in the low end trades . Not too many OZ CEO's running O/S companies in OZ . Can't even find one for Telstra
OZ produces raw resources by the boat load but has failed to value add by enhancing the end product, we produce nothing of value to the rest of the world. Yes we are in the grain market but with other massive producers who are on very large government handouts to keep farming . The only time we make money off our produce is when the big players are hit with drought , pest or war
If we take Japan India and USA out of the equation there aren't too many if any big players our there who want anything in large enough qualities from us and then it's all geared to the balance of trade payments
We currently have mining giants selling there product to China for about 30% less than it costs to get it out of the ground all in the hope it will turn around , how long can that last. At days end China will by the company and control the flow to the market
Unfortunately it's pretty gloomy out there at the moment so sit tight it will turn, when I don't know
-- Edited by Wombat 280 on Monday 13th of April 2009 11:28:08 AM
Just be careful about sudden rises in mineral resource markets sometimes this is due to the parent company flogging off an under performing asset or buying an asset from another company that's on the way out . Regardless of who's selling or buying there is still a slow product market out there because of fears about job security . Check the retail sector as an indicator of the workers purchase power it's at a low point and indicating further down
As they now realize the Govt can use the bankcard to buy itself out of the hole but someone has to eventually pay down the track and with Big Kev out their selling off the farm to O/S interest we will own or control very little from which to earn an income to pay the bill . I believe we will be on the edge of this giant hole Kev has dug for awhile yet .
Kev as Bob and Paul did before him has failed to understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch in business even if you do speak Chinese and use chop sticks .
Be careful with whom you place your hard earnt money it's to hard to come by
I agree with most, if not all. Wombat has had the best to say. Love his Chinese fellow, and could not agree more.
Stuff the kids, yes, -- spend it all - I with you.
What i thought was to undertake a successful GN lifestyle, we need to take care of business ie your money.
Sure save it and spend it - great - but that is positioned on earning it to start with. Need to have a job - stuff that - have we not earnt this lifestyle
I want party time, all the time. Mind you party time finishes at 10 pm nowdays.
Some on here have, or talk about, selling up and going. Thats the trigger for this topic. What do you do with the cash.
It would not take much to realise that at sometime, we all will need to park up, but if what we have done with the cash, kept us on the road, then it will see us out, as well. Leaving next to nil for the kids.
At the end of the day, i was never looking to make money as such, just travelling costs. When i know what my income is, i know what travelling I can do.