Thanks for that info,i should of mentioned that i do have all this info ,but what all this info dosn't stipulate is how does the average person know what breaking load of each chain holds.To me it looks like there is a gap in customer information regarding this.The specs should be set out for the average c/ van owner to understand.So they can purchase an approved attachment device.Manufacturers are required to equip their caravans with chains, they are only as strong as it's weakest link and customers have no way of knowing wheather the chains connection to the tow vehicleis are up to the job. The ratings for towing purposes?The load ratings stamped onto some shackles are load ratings for lifting things, but is that the same as shock- load ratings for towing purposes? How long will it before the relevent authorities clarify what devices are legally acceptable for linking a van chain to a tow vehicle.
-- Edited by herbie on Wednesday 15th of May 2013 10:21:30 PM
herbie said
11:38 PM May 15, 2013
How often we see the safety chains of a 2.5 -tonne caravan attatched to a towbar with $2 D shackles? How would that prevent the van from going it's own way if the ball coupling failed? But at a caravan show i went to once the ring in bloke they had on one brand disply was assurring this newbie chap to caravaning that a small non- locking unrated carabiner would be adequete.If we cannot rely on salespeople at these shows to provide the right advice , then i recon things are really crook out in caravan world.Saftey chains must meet a required strenght relative to the ATM or caravan mass recommended by the manufacturer for which the trailers with ATM up to 2500kg must have at least one safety chain, trailers of greater capacity must have two. As total weight designation increases, so too must the strength of chain used. The Australian Standards specifications are quite clearon the strength of saftey chains and complying with these regs is the resposibility of the manufacturer. HOWEVER it is up to the owner how to attach the chain/chains to the tow vehicle and this often where ---in my view everything comes apart....LITERALLY!!!!As time and time again we find vans over two tonnes with safety chains connected via a D- Shackle a twitch of wire, a padlock or a carainer. Do these devices meet safety standards is my question.
mr glassies said
01:59 AM May 16, 2013
yep herbie see it all the time $50,000 van with a $2 dollar shackle cant work some people out a and another 1 i see a lot of the breakaway wire on the same shackle as the safety chain um dosnt compute with me
dibs
justcruisin01 said
02:48 AM May 16, 2013
Saw a SA van a while back that had those snaplocks connecting the chains, when I questioned him he said it was legal in SA. Didn't convince me, fools & their vans are easly parted.
It becomes part of the overall package, no education,no training, no towing test,no licience endorsements. Mix this with no common sense & thats why we have disasters. The system is no less than rediculas, Massive vans/fifth wheel's all on a car licience, & yet we need a light truck licience to drive a five tonn flat top truck when many of these rigs are more than five tonns.
Beats me when all other types of machinery that we operate you need to be trained, & obtain a operator's ticket.
JC.
herbie said
03:05 AM May 16, 2013
justcruisin01 wrote:
Saw a SA van a while back that had those snaplocks connecting the chains, when I questioned him he said it was legal in SA. Didn't convince me, fools & their vans are easly parted.
It becomes part of the overall package, no education,no training, no towing test,no licience endorsements. Mix this with no common sense & thats why we have disasters. The system is no less than rediculas, Massive vans/fifth wheel's all on a car licience, & yet we need a light truck licience to drive a five tonn flat top truck when many of these rigs are more than five tonns.
Beats me when all other types of machinery that we operate you need to be trained, & obtain a operator's ticket.
JC.
yep know what your saying ,sure as hell defy's logic,when you think what could happen,also makes me think some of these accident may be due partly to the use of under rated towing gear.
herbie said
03:15 AM May 16, 2013
Tomorrow while at work i will ring Qld DOTARS ( the federal Dept of Transport and Road Safety)and see if they have a ruling on this and get back with the response.
Regards Hernie.Easier to do it from work,as have almost a direct line to this department with issues regarding one thing or another,as rules appear to change from one qweek to the next regarding rules and regs(re work )..Also all the people m/f from other states can have all the latest up to date licenses re opperating different equipment or driving trucks/ machinery ,but NO way can the opperate on interstate licenses,FROM ANOTHER STATE. Some of these rules i am sure are just a revenue grab from one state Goverment to the next.As to get some of these tickets/ licenses re badged into the next state adds up to hundreds of dollars depending on how many they need to have re badged.
johnq said
03:43 AM May 16, 2013
Must comply with Australian Standard AS 2741-2002 and the break limit of the shackle must be 2.5 times greater than the ATM of the trailer.
johnq said
03:47 AM May 16, 2013
Here is a useful towing guide and the condition is on page 7,
This is what I do with my D SHACKLES put an o ring on the pin before you screw it in,only do it up hand tight undoes Easley never lost one yet , it is a great idear. Lance C
-- Edited by Olley46 on Thursday 16th of May 2013 10:00:26 AM
-- Edited by Olley46 on Thursday 16th of May 2013 10:03:23 AM
-- Edited by Olley46 on Thursday 16th of May 2013 10:04:30 AM
Its easy to work out what shackle you need The chains are required by law ro be rated and being a rated chain they are required to have the rating stamped on each link of the chain. The shackle is then required to be a minimum of the chain rating size. cheers blaze
Zoomtopz said
02:38 PM May 16, 2013
some good replies & research.
I "nip em up" a bit - tr - I tighten my shackles a touch , with a shifter or pliers .
Old mate says y do u tighten em up , finger-tight is enough . old habits 'die-hard'.
during my seamanship course in th Navy , we got taught things various ways . we
had gear to assist in doing some of these things . one of these 'thingys' is called ,
'a pussers dirk' - tr a Navy issue knife , one of the thingys on th dirk is a small
'marlin spike' , notice there is a hole in 'th handle part ' of th shackle , u put th
spike in th hole to nip it up . I do it both times , when I Put th shacle onto th
tow-hitch & when I take it off . AND I hang my chains UP , if ya leave em down,
you are going to need pliers or shifter to loosen em, corosion , hence ALLWAYS
carrying your knife at sea to tighten or loosen shackles , turnbuckles etc.
Olley46 said
03:51 PM May 16, 2013
Another way of stoping your D Shackles coming undone.
-- Edited by Olley46 on Thursday 16th of May 2013 04:05:04 PM
Agree .There's no point in using chains if the shackles are cheap **** .
I haven't really noticed the problem , but I don't make a habit of staring closely at other peoples shackles .
Friar Park said
05:04 PM May 16, 2013
I am a recently joined member but have been using caravans for close to forty years on and off. I have always used a shackle which has the biggest pin dia to attach to the van to the tow bar. I take the view that the van and towbar manufacturers have done the necessary calculations to arrive at this dimension. Never lost a van yet, that sounds a little conceited but dont the equipment manufacturers have a responsibility to provide gear that will allow suitability of intended use.Therefore if i use the largest possible pin size i am well into the safety margin, or do you see a fault in my reasoning.
Tony (Friar Park)
-- Edited by Friar Park on Thursday 16th of May 2013 09:00:29 PM
If screw pin shackles have been used, then the pins must be moused. Mousing a shackle calls for bailing wire, or a plastic tie wrap, inserted through the hole in the thumb end of the screw pin. The bailing wire or tie wrap would be twisted or pulled as tight as possible so that the screw pin will be able to turn out of the shackle if live loading were applied. This is the last step in the installation of a screw pin shackle in a standard rigging point.
herbie said
08:54 PM May 16, 2013
This is the replys i recieved after a few phone calls.The length of the safety chains must prevent the van;s drawbar hitting the ground if the the van is detatched from towing vehicle. The safety chains must be properly connected to the towbar with attatchments capable of withstanding the specified breaking load of each chain. DO NOT USE PADLOCKS.
Ok so you cannot use padlocks in QLD .
Then i ask DOTARS... How is the average caravaner to know the breaking load of each chain?
Answer. The D shackles ,THE adr IS UNDER REVIEW and this issue will be highlighted.// also Towbar manufactures to provide for the attatchment of safety chains on the towbar's capacity , which would require that AVAILABLE HOLES ,ect are big enough to accept D shackle pins of the appropriate rating.
littledick said
09:13 PM May 16, 2013
As Stan would say, good one Olley.
Dick.
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:58 AM May 17, 2013
Friar Park wrote:
I have always used a shackle which has the biggest pin dia to attach to the van to the tow bar.
That is not much good if the D shackle is made from cheese :( (and some cheapies aren't much better than cheese).
If it is not "rated" (with the rating stamped on it) you can only guess what strength it might be.
Rated D shackles have a safety margin of 5:1 (for lifting applications), so a 2T rated shackle has a breaking load of 10T.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 17th of May 2013 12:59:40 AM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 17th of May 2013 01:00:20 AM
herbie said
08:29 AM May 17, 2013
I understand what you and some of the otherpeople on here are saying and useing, but i think you and others have missed my main concern,and that is
Manufactures have a legal obligation the equip their vans with chains of SUFFICIANT Tensile strength , But as i mentioned before a chain is only as good as it's weakest link, and customers have no way of knowing wheather the chains connection to tow vehicle is up to the job. The load ratings stamped onto SOME shackles are LOAD RATINGS for lifting things, But is that the same as SHOCK - LOAD- Ratings for Towing purposes??.And how do caravaners know the breaking load of each chain.
brickies said
11:39 AM May 17, 2013
This is taken from RACQ website on Towing
All States and Territories require the use of safety chains. Safety chains must be strong enough to hold the trailer should the trailer coupling accidentally disconnect, and comply with the appropriate Australian Standard. Trailers up to 2500 kg ATM are required to have one safety chain while trailers from 2,500kg to 3,500kg must be fitted with two safety chains. The D shackle used to connect the safety chain to the vehicles tow bar must have a load rating equivalent to that of the safety chain.
-- Edited by brickies on Friday 17th of May 2013 11:42:20 AM
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:02 PM May 17, 2013
herbie wrote:
.... a chain is only as good as it's weakest link, and customers have no way of knowing wheather the chains connection to tow vehicle is up to the job......
Rated chain, like rated D shackles have their rating marked on them.
No markings, no rating, not legal.
The shock loads are accounted for by the safety margins required.
Must comply with Australian Standard AS 2741-2002 and the break limit of the shackle must be 2.5 times greater than the ATM of the trailer.
No mystery, no doubts, it is all quite clear and understandable in the regulations.
Cheers,
Peter
herbie said
10:09 PM May 17, 2013
A lot of people new to the caravan world go by a second hand caravan and that is where the problem starts, as a lot of the older vans ,were made before this confusing law was intoduced . I see it all the time ,these people not knowing that this rule is in place.And as sure as hell the c/ v dealers do not spend money on these vans to relace the chains/ shackles to the regs. These people just presume that every thing is honky dorey .
Thanks for that info,i should of mentioned that i do have all this info ,but what all this info dosn't stipulate is how does the average person know what breaking load of each chain holds.To me it looks like there is a gap in customer information regarding this.The specs should be set out for the average c/ van owner to understand.So they can purchase an approved attachment device.Manufacturers are required to equip their caravans with chains, they are only as strong as it's weakest link and customers have no way of knowing wheather the chains connection to the tow vehicleis are up to the job. The ratings for towing purposes?The load ratings stamped onto some shackles are load ratings for lifting things, but is that the same as shock- load ratings for towing purposes? How long will it before the relevent authorities clarify what devices are legally acceptable for linking a van chain to a tow vehicle.
-- Edited by herbie on Wednesday 15th of May 2013 10:21:30 PM
How often we see the safety chains of a 2.5 -tonne caravan attatched to a towbar with $2 D shackles? How would that prevent the van from going it's own way if the ball coupling failed? But at a caravan show i went to once the ring in bloke they had on one brand disply was assurring this newbie chap to caravaning that a small non- locking unrated carabiner would be adequete.If we cannot rely on salespeople at these shows to provide the right advice , then i recon things are really crook out in caravan world.Saftey chains must meet a required strenght relative to the ATM or caravan mass recommended by the manufacturer for which the trailers with ATM up to 2500kg must have at least one safety chain, trailers of greater capacity must have two. As total weight designation increases, so too must the strength of chain used. The Australian Standards specifications are quite clearon the strength of saftey chains and complying with these regs is the resposibility of the manufacturer. HOWEVER it is up to the owner how to attach the chain/chains to the tow vehicle and this often where ---in my view everything comes apart....LITERALLY!!!!As time and time again we find vans over two tonnes with safety chains connected via a D- Shackle a twitch of wire, a padlock or a carainer. Do these devices meet safety standards is my question.
dibs
Saw a SA van a while back that had those snaplocks connecting the chains, when I questioned him he said it was legal in SA. Didn't convince me, fools & their vans are easly parted.
It becomes part of the overall package, no education,no training, no towing test,no licience endorsements. Mix this with no common sense & thats why we have disasters. The system is no less than rediculas, Massive vans/fifth wheel's all on a car licience, & yet we need a light truck licience to drive a five tonn flat top truck when many of these rigs are more than five tonns.
Beats me when all other types of machinery that we operate you need to be trained, & obtain a operator's ticket.
JC.
Tomorrow while at work i will ring Qld DOTARS ( the federal Dept of Transport and Road Safety)and see if they have a ruling on this and get back with the response.
Regards Hernie.Easier to do it from work,as have almost a direct line to this department with issues regarding one thing or another,as rules appear to change from one qweek to the next regarding rules and regs(re work )..Also all the people m/f from other states can have all the latest up to date licenses re opperating different equipment or driving trucks/ machinery ,but NO way can the opperate on interstate licenses,FROM ANOTHER STATE. Some of these rules i am sure are just a revenue grab from one state Goverment to the next.As to get some of these tickets/ licenses re badged into the next state adds up to hundreds of dollars depending on how many they need to have re badged.
Here is a useful towing guide and the condition is on page 7,
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/Vehicle%20standards%20and%20modifications/Loads%20and%20towing/Safe%20towing/Safe_towing_guide.pdf
Lance C
-- Edited by Olley46 on Thursday 16th of May 2013 10:00:26 AM
-- Edited by Olley46 on Thursday 16th of May 2013 10:03:23 AM
-- Edited by Olley46 on Thursday 16th of May 2013 10:04:30 AM
The chains are required by law ro be rated and being a rated chain they are required to have the rating stamped on each link of the chain. The shackle is then required to be a minimum of the chain rating size.
cheers
blaze
some good replies & research.
I "nip em up" a bit - tr - I tighten my shackles a touch , with a shifter or pliers .
Old mate says y do u tighten em up , finger-tight is enough . old habits 'die-hard'.
during my seamanship course in th Navy , we got taught things various ways . we
had gear to assist in doing some of these things . one of these 'thingys' is called ,
'a pussers dirk' - tr a Navy issue knife , one of the thingys on th dirk is a small
'marlin spike' , notice there is a hole in 'th handle part ' of th shackle , u put th
spike in th hole to nip it up . I do it both times , when I Put th shacle onto th
tow-hitch & when I take it off . AND I hang my chains UP , if ya leave em down,
you are going to need pliers or shifter to loosen em, corosion , hence ALLWAYS
carrying your knife at sea to tighten or loosen shackles , turnbuckles etc.
-- Edited by Olley46 on Thursday 16th of May 2013 04:05:04 PM
Agree .There's no point in using chains if the shackles are cheap **** .
I haven't really noticed the problem , but I don't make a habit of staring closely at other peoples shackles .
I am a recently joined member but have been using caravans for close to forty years on and off. I have always used a shackle which has the biggest pin dia to attach to the van to the tow bar. I take the view that the van and towbar manufacturers have done the necessary calculations to arrive at this dimension. Never lost a van yet, that sounds a little conceited but dont the equipment manufacturers have a responsibility to provide gear that will allow suitability of intended use.Therefore if i use the largest possible pin size i am well into the safety margin, or do you see a fault in my reasoning.
Tony (Friar Park)
-- Edited by Friar Park on Thursday 16th of May 2013 09:00:29 PM
From my rigging days.
Was taught to always mouse a shackle, still do it to this day.
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Moused_shackle.gif/220px-Moused_shackle.gif&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_wire&h=237&w=220&sz=16&tbnid=cHy0YHVLfr_O6M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=84&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmousing%2Ba%2Bshackle%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=mousing+a+shackle&usg=___gUQUFUr6UsKCZIT2D4HzAwYcq4=&docid=lGi3SKeoEHeV_M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=njmUUeGNNI7yiAe5n4GQAg&sqi=2&ved=0CFUQ9QEwBA&dur=1256
Attaching a Shackle:
If screw pin shackles have been used, then the pins must be moused. Mousing a shackle calls for bailing wire, or a plastic tie wrap, inserted through the hole in the thumb end of the screw pin. The bailing wire or tie wrap would be twisted or pulled as tight as possible so that the screw pin will be able to turn out of the shackle if live loading were applied. This is the last step in the installation of a screw pin shackle in a standard rigging point.
This is the replys i recieved after a few phone calls.The length of the safety chains must prevent the van;s drawbar hitting the ground if the the van is detatched from towing vehicle. The safety chains must be properly connected to the towbar with attatchments capable of withstanding the specified breaking load of each chain. DO NOT USE PADLOCKS.
Ok so you cannot use padlocks in QLD .
Then i ask DOTARS... How is the average caravaner to know the breaking load of each chain?
Answer. The D shackles ,THE adr IS UNDER REVIEW and this issue will be highlighted.// also Towbar manufactures to provide for the attatchment of safety chains on the towbar's capacity , which would require that AVAILABLE HOLES ,ect are big enough to accept D shackle pins of the appropriate rating.
As Stan would say, good one Olley.
Dick.
That is not much good if the D shackle is made from cheese :( (and some cheapies aren't much better than cheese).
If it is not "rated" (with the rating stamped on it) you can only guess what strength it might be.
Rated D shackles have a safety margin of 5:1 (for lifting applications), so a 2T rated shackle has a breaking load of 10T.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 17th of May 2013 12:59:40 AM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Friday 17th of May 2013 01:00:20 AM
I understand what you and some of the otherpeople on here are saying and useing, but i think you and others have missed my main concern,and that is
Manufactures have a legal obligation the equip their vans with chains of SUFFICIANT Tensile strength , But as i mentioned before a chain is only as good as it's weakest link, and customers have no way of knowing wheather the chains connection to tow vehicle is up to the job. The load ratings stamped onto SOME shackles are LOAD RATINGS for lifting things, But is that the same as SHOCK - LOAD- Ratings for Towing purposes??.And how do caravaners know the breaking load of each chain.
All States and Territories require the use of safety chains. Safety chains must be strong enough to hold the trailer should the trailer coupling accidentally disconnect, and comply with the appropriate Australian Standard. Trailers up to 2500 kg ATM are required to have one safety chain while trailers from 2,500kg to 3,500kg must be fitted with two safety chains. The D shackle used to connect the safety chain to the vehicles tow bar must have a load rating equivalent to that of the safety chain.
-- Edited by brickies on Friday 17th of May 2013 11:42:20 AM
Rated chain, like rated D shackles have their rating marked on them.
No markings, no rating, not legal.
The shock loads are accounted for by the safety margins required.
No mystery, no doubts, it is all quite clear and understandable in the regulations.
Cheers,
Peter
A lot of people new to the caravan world go by a second hand caravan and that is where the problem starts, as a lot of the older vans ,were made before this confusing law was intoduced . I see it all the time ,these people not knowing that this rule is in place.And as sure as hell the c/ v dealers do not spend money on these vans to relace the chains/ shackles to the regs. These people just presume that every thing is honky dorey .