Ok guys, i'm going to have a spit about a safety issue that is bugging me
I have been trying to to find the correct torque settings for the wheel nuts on my Jayco Stirling so that I can maintain a safe standard
So I rang Jayco and they told me that it was not policy to reveal those details because it was a liability issue.
Then I rang a very good caravan repair mob in Perth called the Caravan Shed and they told me the settings I needed without question.
Well if the builders of my caravan cant come clean and assist me with my very reasonable request, surely this is poor service to the extreme.
NOT HAPPY JAN !!! Whose in charge and whose responsible for that crap.
Anyway the setting I was given by my good friends in Perth was 90 nM ( my Jayco hubs and wheels are Ford )
If anyone else has more to add I would be grateful
-- Edited by Dolly on Monday 29th of August 2016 04:54:48 PM
Vince said
05:04 PM Aug 29, 2016
Yes Dolly it is a sad situation that the manufacturer won't divulge information pertaining to mechanical inquiries on their product for self rectification.
But it is within their right to cover their bums if the correct info is given then something goes wrong and suddenly they are staring repercussions in the face.
Not saying this is you by any means but I have been in that place a few times giving documented information only to have it come back and bite me.
The guy at the Caravan Shed has no props because it's not his product and if a stud snapped off it will still not be his problem. (unless you pay him to have it repaired)
Cheers
Vince
patrol03 said
05:04 PM Aug 29, 2016
The 90NM figure sounds very close.If you know the diameter of the stud and the TPI there are tables on the internet you can access.If your wheels are steel,just do them up normally.Tension is more critical with alloy wheels. Remember never grease or oil the studs,they must be dry for correct torque.
Dolly said
06:20 PM Aug 29, 2016
Thanks for your comments
Yes it's a tricky subject alright
It's interesting however that my Landcruiser is prepared to include those details in the manual
Also interesting that everybody is having to guess
the settings. .... very strange science indeed !
I am starting to think that the good old hand and gut feel is perhaps the only way to go
Thanks also for the heads up about the grease
There are so many saying you should lube
but to date I have not.
Cheers
patrol03 said
07:13 PM Aug 29, 2016
If you lube wheel studs then torque them, the resultant torque will be well over the specified figure causing stud stretch then possibly premature failure. As I suggested,check the torque charts for correct figure for your size of stud.
Woody n Sue said
08:20 PM Aug 29, 2016
Well ok i am going to bite here.
Patrol03 would you care to enlighten me just how in hell do you come up with a luburicated stud being over tightened when torqued up to the correct tension ? When it is in fact the only way to ensure that the correct tension has been applied to the rim in order to hold it tight to the hub, as is the reason for doing the stud nut up.
The most sure way to stuff up a wheel stud is to do them up dry the thread will bind and give the impression that it is tight when it is in fact not tight at all, and as such in the extreme would not necessarily even be holding the rim tight on to the hub, a short way down the road and the wheel rim is stuffed, as many a driver has found out in the past, to their horror and expense.
I am not trying to be rude here but we have done up a lot of wheel nuts here ( my brother retails tyres ) and if some one put their wheel nuts back on without oiling them they would be told in no uncertain terms to remove them again and lubricate them or we will not be responsible for the wheel coming loose and stuffing the rim, as one truck driver found out to his personal expense, he has never done that again .
Woody
Weedpharma said
08:54 PM Aug 29, 2016
Surely lubricants on the studs reduces the friction and therefore reduce the force needed to turn the nut. This in turn means the nut goes harder against the wheel and applies more stretch to the bolt.
Conversely, the lubrication would make it easier for the nut to unwind if not fully done up.
Surely lubricants on the studs reduces the friction and therefore reduce the force needed to turn the nut. This in turn means the nut goes harder against the wheel and applies more stretch to the bolt.
Conversely, the lubrication would make it easier for the nut to unwind if not fully done up.
Weedpharma
Yes it does mean that the lubricant reduces the friction, that's the point of lubricating it, however when you are using a torque wrench to tighten them you will only get the correct tension on the bolts therefore no the nut is not tighter against the wheel and no it will not stretch the bolt, this is the very reason for using a tension wrench to tighten the wheel nuts in the first place.
and yes it would make it easier for a lose nut to come undone but..... If you have done them up to the correct tension they won't come undone making this a mute point and indeed the whole reason for using the tension wrench to tighten them in the first place .
woody
Aus-Kiwi said
10:25 PM Aug 29, 2016
Actually a better method would be 30 nm then 90* depending on stud size ? . I have always used graphite grease on threads . Never had issues . Plus the tapper of most wheel nuts make it a mute point . Besides lets go the other way if thread was rusty etc . It won't tighten correctly ..
Tony Bev said
10:44 PM Aug 29, 2016
Back in the day, (In the Fitting department), only specific threads called for lubrication prior to using a torque wrench
These were mainly large diameter threads, of very high torque, where the only option was to use a hydraulic torque wrench, or mechanical torque multipliers
When a manufacturer (of a machine) stipulated that lubricant was required, they also stipulated the torque to be used. The torque given was around 70% (don't quote me on this number, it was a long time ago), of the normal torque range, from the tables of that type/class/size/pitch of thread
The reason was that the torque wrench relies on the friction of, both the face of the nut/bolt, and the friction of the loaded side of the thread
Hope that I am not fanning the flames
iana said
11:13 PM Aug 29, 2016
Trouble is Tony, what happened along time ago, doesn't happen now. Back then we had tradesmen, now we have half trained persons doing a job as quick as they can, but with the least amount of effort for the maximum charge out rate. To day you just wouldn't survive if you used a torque wrench all the time.
Aus-Kiwi said
11:28 PM Aug 29, 2016
Tell me one tyre place who uses a torque wrench . Tat tat tat. Done with compressor air gun !! Does way more damage . The main part it centralised . Plus it's the question of pissy std wheel brace to undo some wheel nuts . I purchased a 50 to1 torque multiplier for Fuso bus / Motorhome . No way in the world could you undo these nuts with out it .. Besides we have to consider we ARE older than we think !! Not many Bow repaires in Pimbera ! Lol
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Monday 29th of August 2016 11:30:20 PM
PeterD said
11:42 PM Aug 29, 2016
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Tell me one tyre place who uses a torque wrench .
I have been to a couple of Bridgestone tyre outlets where they finish off the tensioning of wheel nuts with a torque wrench.
iana said
11:44 PM Aug 29, 2016
Just thinking about it more, I now think it is a good idea for those who do not indulge in engineering all that much to use a torque wrench. When you have been in the trade a while, one develops a feel and can do the nuts up well and evenly. Not having that skill, then go for the torque wrench.
Tony Bev said
12:18 AM Aug 30, 2016
Dolly wrote:
Ok guys, i'm going to have a spit about a safety issue that is bugging me
I have been trying to to find the correct torque settings for the wheel nuts on my Jayco Stirling so that I can maintain a safe standard
So I rang Jayco and they told me that it was not policy to reveal those details because it was a liability issue.
Then I rang a very good caravan repair mob in Perth called the Caravan Shed and they told me the settings I needed without question.
Well if the builders of my caravan cant come clean and assist me with my very reasonable request, surely this is poor service to the extreme.
NOT HAPPY JAN !!! Whose in charge and whose responsible for that crap.
Anyway the setting I was given by my good friends in Perth was 90 nM ( my Jayco hubs and wheels are Ford )
If anyone else has more to add I would be grateful
-- Edited by Dolly on Monday 29th of August 2016 04:54:48 PM
Hello Dolly Sorry if your post went a bit off topic
I am not a Mechanic but
Perhaps Jayco do not know what the torque settings are, and are hiding behind what they call a liability issue
I know for a fact that they cannot produce a wiring diagram for a Jayco Conquest, as they say that as they make so many different models, they would have to make a wiring diagram for each and every model
Perhaps the chassis or axel manufacturer can tell you the settings
If you are certain that your hubs are Ford, then by measuring the PCD (Pitch Circular Diameter), you will be able to find the model those hubs came from
For example my BF Ford Falcon has a has 5 studs of 114 mm PCD, and a torque setting of 125 Nm (92 ft lb), using normal steel wheels
I would assume that if the wheels are alloy, then the manufacturer of the wheels would stipulate the torque settings, which would/may be a different torque setting
Hope this is helpful
Tony Bev said
12:50 AM Aug 30, 2016
PeterD wrote:
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Tell me one tyre place who uses a torque wrench .
I have been to a couple of Bridgestone tyre outlets where they finish off the tensioning of wheel nuts with a torque wrench.
Tyre Power Bunbury WA - 2014
Purchased one only tyre for my motorhome, without any input from me, they used a long handle half inch drive torque wrench, to torque at 150 ft lb
Thinking that this must be the setting, and that my normal torque wrench was on the small side, at 150 ft lb maximum.
I purchased a long handle one which is good for up to 250 ft lbs (same as what the tyre place used)
I have since found, peeking in a manual, that it is supposed to be
160 Nm for 14mm bolts (118 ft lb) or 180 Nm for 16mm bolts (133 ft lb)
Woody n Sue said
07:56 AM Aug 30, 2016
We always use a torque wrench to tighten them and so does our Suplier
Rattle guns are not to be used for the final tightening of wheel nuts.
Woody
Ron-D said
08:43 AM Aug 30, 2016
I was in the mechanical trade and my hobby is restoring cars and motorcycles so I speak from experience , I use a tension wrench on cylinder heads and that's it, you can easily over tension studs with a tension wrench, and when you undo it you will sheer the stud, grease the stud you will have something that is over tensioned and if it did start to loosen up big trouble, a greased wheel stud in my view is absolute stupidity.
Just tension them up firmly ,and check them regularly and you will find that's even easier without a tension wrench....
blaze said
09:05 AM Aug 30, 2016
All studs that are tightened with a tension wrench require lubrication, did I mention ALL. They are lubricated to a give a smooth transition to the desired torque. An unlubricated thread may only achieve 50% of desired torque. More wheel nuts come loose from over tightened nuts than under tensioned nuts because the threads stretch. I know for fact that all our local tyre shops use torque wrench's to tighten wheel nuts and lube threads. I use anti seize as my lube choice the tyre guys normal just use wd40 or simular cheers blaze
ps to all the people who advocate not to lubricate threads, show me a workshop manual that tells you not to lubricate
-- Edited by blaze on Tuesday 30th of August 2016 09:20:27 AM
vince56 said
10:15 AM Aug 30, 2016
Hi blaze
Mackay trailers stipulate not to lube studs under any circumstances.
Cheers Vince
Aus-Kiwi said
10:22 AM Aug 30, 2016
Check vehicles spec of studs or wheel hub used ? Btw tightening with rattle gun then torque wrench is BS . The rattle gun has already tightened !! They spin very fast .. The wrench is only to make the job look good to the customer, double checking they are tight ! If anything over done ., I must say don't fret too much . After changing 1000's of wheels over the years . You get to know when it tightens then that few degree more .. Yes adding lube and torquing properly . How can you over tighten ? That's the reason for wrench is the first place . It can also work the other way as in tight threads and loose fitting . Why head bolts are torque to yeald method now . Which is a low torque pressure then 90* or 120* . So they are all the same no
Matter how much resistance . The nut taper, design keeps things tight these days .. To tight on disk brakes can deform hub and disc rotor .,
rockylizard said
10:26 AM Aug 30, 2016
Gday...
OK - I apologise this has a yankee accent ... but it gives some rational for and against -
To save you scrolling to find the article ... this is it -
Lubrication
There is a great deal of argument is whether to lubricate lug threads. Some swear by the use of some form of anti-seize on the threads, whether lithium grease, WD-40, motor oil or Teflon spray. The idea is to prevent rust and make it easier when it comes time to remove the lugs. Others recoil in horror, saying that lubing the threads will result in overtorqued nuts, or that the lubrication will cause the nuts to work themselves loose.
Manufacturers, engineers and other industry experts seem to unanimously oppose using lubrication. On the other hand, some customers, DIYers and self-appointed Internet forum experts claim to have used thread lube since the very dawn of time with nary a problem.
My own opinion is more nuanced. I disapprove of lubricating threads in general, unless they are badly rusted. Most lug bolts and lug studs are coated with a substance intended to prevent rust, but certain makes and models seem to be much more vulnerable to rust than others (Im looking at you, Volvo).
In that case I can see applying a small amount of lubricant to prevent further corrosion, but only after carefully cleaning the rust off the threads with a wire brush. In most cases, however, I would simply ensure that the threads are clean and not bother with lubrication.
If you do apply lubricant, make sure to do so carefully and only to the threads. Never allow any lubricant on the mating surfaces of the nut or the lughole of the wheel.
Much of the stickiness brought about by proper torque comes not from the threads but from the contact between mating surfaces. Even a thin film of oil between those surfaces can create a hydraulic barrier, preventing proper torque from being applied. This can also make it easier for the nut to work itself loose.
Either way, its always best to get that customer to return in two weeks to check the lug nuts for tightness if any lubricants are used.
Well, thus ends this months sermon. Now get out there and go nuts!
Cheers - John
rockylizard said
10:41 AM Aug 30, 2016
Gday...
This is an article by an acknowledged expert in the RV industry -
It is a bit of a long read, but has much valid information.
What a very strange reaction to your question from Jayco! How the heck are you supposed to change a flat tyre when in the outback if you don't know the correct torque settings. Guess?
Aus-Kiwi said
12:03 PM Aug 30, 2016
Carry a torque wrench ? Lol. Right !! Chances are the wheel brace is way too short anyway !! Tighten to same specs as your car . If similar bolts .
KJB said
01:37 PM Aug 30, 2016
If it was all that important there would be a torque wrench supplied in the tool kit of every car. (you could use it to do your caravan /trailer wheels as well! )
KB
Izabarack said
06:26 PM Aug 30, 2016
patrol03 wrote:
Remember never grease or oil the studs,they must be dry for correct torque.
Loctite man addressed this issue for me some years ago. Demo showed dry threads suffered many problems and torque achieved was often uncertain. Products like C5 copper grease are commonly specified for bolts and studs used in high temp situations like jet engines. I would never put any exhaust components together without anti-seize grease. Dry threads may suffer galling or brinelling or just plain friction along uneven threads leading to uncertain torque being achieved. Good example of the need for wet threads is where torque is measured by micrometer on the elongation of the bolt. Dry threads is such instances often result in broken/snapped bolts. Unless specified in the repair manual, always clean and grease threads before torque settings are applied, has been my practice. High Moly steel is already pretty slippery and may not need lubrication to achieve correct torque. High performance fasteners may use steels and exotic materials that may initiate and progress cracks from the smallest corrosion instances. Another reason to use products such as Loctite or grease during the fit up. BTW, I have three tension wrenches and use them all the time. I always find it interesting that many a calibrated wrist will put another half to three-quarter turn into a properly tensioned wheel nut. Sumps and tappet covers love tension wrenches for even fit up and no leaks.
Iza
-- Edited by Izabarack on Tuesday 30th of August 2016 06:37:24 PM
Ok guys, i'm going to have a spit about a safety issue that is bugging me
I have been trying to to find the correct torque settings for the wheel nuts on my Jayco Stirling so that I can maintain a safe standard
So I rang Jayco and they told me that it was not policy to reveal those details because it was a liability issue.
Then I rang a very good caravan repair mob in Perth called the Caravan Shed and they told me the settings I needed without question.
Well if the builders of my caravan cant come clean and assist me with my very reasonable request, surely this is poor service to the extreme.
NOT HAPPY JAN !!! Whose in charge and whose responsible for that crap.
Anyway the setting I was given by my good friends in Perth was 90 nM ( my Jayco hubs and wheels are Ford )
If anyone else has more to add I would be grateful
-- Edited by Dolly on Monday 29th of August 2016 04:54:48 PM
But it is within their right to cover their bums if the correct info is given then something goes wrong and suddenly they are staring repercussions in the face.
Not saying this is you by any means but I have been in that place a few times giving documented information only to have it come back and bite me.
The guy at the Caravan Shed has no props because it's not his product and if a stud snapped off it will still not be his problem. (unless you pay him to have it repaired)
Cheers
Vince
Patrol03 would you care to enlighten me just how in hell do you come up with a luburicated stud being over tightened when torqued up to the correct tension ? When it is in fact the only way to ensure that the correct tension has been applied to the rim in order to hold it tight to the hub, as is the reason for doing the stud nut up.
The most sure way to stuff up a wheel stud is to do them up dry the thread will bind and give the impression that it is tight when it is in fact not tight at all, and as such in the extreme would not necessarily even be holding the rim tight on to the hub, a short way down the road and the wheel rim is stuffed, as many a driver has found out in the past, to their horror and expense.
I am not trying to be rude here but we have done up a lot of wheel nuts here ( my brother retails tyres ) and if some one put their wheel nuts back on without oiling them they would be told in no uncertain terms to remove them again and lubricate them or we will not be responsible for the wheel coming loose and stuffing the rim, as one truck driver found out to his personal expense, he has never done that again .
Woody
Conversely, the lubrication would make it easier for the nut to unwind if not fully done up.
Weedpharma
Aussie Paul.
Yes it does mean that the lubricant reduces the friction, that's the point of lubricating it, however when you are using a torque wrench to tighten them you will only get the correct tension on the bolts therefore no the nut is not tighter against the wheel and no it will not stretch the bolt, this is the very reason for using a tension wrench to tighten the wheel nuts in the first place.
and yes it would make it easier for a lose nut to come undone but..... If you have done them up to the correct tension they won't come undone making this a mute point and indeed the whole reason for using the tension wrench to tighten them in the first place .
woody
Back in the day, (In the Fitting department), only specific threads called for lubrication prior to using a torque wrench
These were mainly large diameter threads, of very high torque, where the only option was to use a hydraulic torque wrench, or mechanical torque multipliers
When a manufacturer (of a machine) stipulated that lubricant was required, they also stipulated the torque to be used.
The torque given was around 70% (don't quote me on this number, it was a long time ago), of the normal torque range, from the tables of that type/class/size/pitch of thread
The reason was that the torque wrench relies on the friction of, both the face of the nut/bolt, and the friction of the loaded side of the thread
Hope that I am not fanning the flames
Tell me one tyre place who uses a torque wrench . Tat tat tat. Done with compressor air gun !! Does way more damage . The main part it centralised . Plus it's the question of pissy std wheel brace to undo some wheel nuts . I purchased a 50 to1 torque multiplier for Fuso bus / Motorhome . No way in the world could you undo these nuts with out it .. Besides we have to consider we ARE older than we think !! Not many Bow repaires in Pimbera ! Lol
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Monday 29th of August 2016 11:30:20 PM
I have been to a couple of Bridgestone tyre outlets where they finish off the tensioning of wheel nuts with a torque wrench.
Hello Dolly
Sorry if your post went a bit off topic
I am not a Mechanic but
Perhaps Jayco do not know what the torque settings are, and are hiding behind what they call a liability issue
I know for a fact that they cannot produce a wiring diagram for a Jayco Conquest, as they say that as they make so many different models, they would have to make a wiring diagram for each and every model
Perhaps the chassis or axel manufacturer can tell you the settings
If you are certain that your hubs are Ford, then by measuring the PCD (Pitch Circular Diameter), you will be able to find the model those hubs came from
For example my BF Ford Falcon has a has 5 studs of 114 mm PCD, and a torque setting of 125 Nm (92 ft lb), using normal steel wheels
I would assume that if the wheels are alloy, then the manufacturer of the wheels would stipulate the torque settings, which would/may be a different torque setting
Hope this is helpful
Tyre Power Bunbury WA - 2014
Purchased one only tyre for my motorhome, without any input from me, they used a long handle half inch drive torque wrench, to torque at 150 ft lb
Thinking that this must be the setting, and that my normal torque wrench was on the small side, at 150 ft lb maximum.
I purchased a long handle one which is good for up to 250 ft lbs (same as what the tyre place used)
I have since found, peeking in a manual, that it is supposed to be
160 Nm for 14mm bolts (118 ft lb) or
180 Nm for 16mm bolts (133 ft lb)
Rattle guns are not to be used for the final tightening of wheel nuts.
Woody
I was in the mechanical trade and my hobby is restoring cars and motorcycles so I speak from experience , I use a tension wrench on cylinder heads and that's it, you can easily over tension studs with a tension wrench, and when you undo it you will sheer the stud, grease the stud you will have something that is over tensioned and if it did start to loosen up big trouble, a greased wheel stud in my view is absolute stupidity.
Just tension them up firmly ,and check them regularly and you will find that's even easier without a tension wrench....
All studs that are tightened with a tension wrench require lubrication, did I mention ALL. They are lubricated to a give a smooth transition to the desired torque. An unlubricated thread may only achieve 50% of desired torque. More wheel nuts come loose from over tightened nuts than under tensioned nuts because the threads stretch.
I know for fact that all our local tyre shops use torque wrench's to tighten wheel nuts and lube threads. I use anti seize as my lube choice the tyre guys normal just use wd40 or simular
cheers
blaze
ps to all the people who advocate not to lubricate threads, show me a workshop manual that tells you not to lubricate
-- Edited by blaze on Tuesday 30th of August 2016 09:20:27 AM
Mackay trailers stipulate not to lube studs under any circumstances.
Cheers Vince
Matter how much resistance . The nut taper, design keeps things tight these days .. To tight on disk brakes can deform hub and disc rotor .,
Gday...
OK - I apologise this has a yankee accent ... but it gives some rational for and against -
http://www.tirereview.com/its-really-all-about-lug-nuts/
To save you scrolling to find the article ... this is it -
Lubrication
There is a great deal of argument is whether to lubricate lug threads. Some swear by the use of some form of anti-seize on the threads, whether lithium grease, WD-40, motor oil or Teflon spray. The idea is to prevent rust and make it easier when it comes time to remove the lugs. Others recoil in horror, saying that lubing the threads will result in overtorqued nuts, or that the lubrication will cause the nuts to work themselves loose.
Manufacturers, engineers and other industry experts seem to unanimously oppose using lubrication. On the other hand, some customers, DIYers and self-appointed Internet forum experts claim to have used thread lube since the very dawn of time with nary a problem.
My own opinion is more nuanced. I disapprove of lubricating threads in general, unless they are badly rusted. Most lug bolts and lug studs are coated with a substance intended to prevent rust, but certain makes and models seem to be much more vulnerable to rust than others (Im looking at you, Volvo).
In that case I can see applying a small amount of lubricant to prevent further corrosion, but only after carefully cleaning the rust off the threads with a wire brush. In most cases, however, I would simply ensure that the threads are clean and not bother with lubrication.
If you do apply lubricant, make sure to do so carefully and only to the threads. Never allow any lubricant on the mating surfaces of the nut or the lughole of the wheel.
Much of the stickiness brought about by proper torque comes not from the threads but from the contact between mating surfaces. Even a thin film of oil between those surfaces can create a hydraulic barrier, preventing proper torque from being applied. This can also make it easier for the nut to work itself loose.
Either way, its always best to get that customer to return in two weeks to check the lug nuts for tightness if any lubricants are used.
Well, thus ends this months sermon. Now get out there and go nuts!
Cheers - John
Gday...
This is an article by an acknowledged expert in the RV industry -
It is a bit of a long read, but has much valid information.
http://caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/wheels-falling-off-trailers-2/
Cheers - John
What a very strange reaction to your question from Jayco! How the heck are you supposed to change a flat tyre when in the outback if you don't know the correct torque settings. Guess?
If it was all that important there would be a torque wrench supplied in the tool kit of every car. (you could use it to do your caravan /trailer wheels as well! )
KB
Loctite man addressed this issue for me some years ago. Demo showed dry threads suffered many problems and torque achieved was often uncertain. Products like C5 copper grease are commonly specified for bolts and studs used in high temp situations like jet engines. I would never put any exhaust components together without anti-seize grease. Dry threads may suffer galling or brinelling or just plain friction along uneven threads leading to uncertain torque being achieved. Good example of the need for wet threads is where torque is measured by micrometer on the elongation of the bolt. Dry threads is such instances often result in broken/snapped bolts. Unless specified in the repair manual, always clean and grease threads before torque settings are applied, has been my practice. High Moly steel is already pretty slippery and may not need lubrication to achieve correct torque. High performance fasteners may use steels and exotic materials that may initiate and progress cracks from the smallest corrosion instances. Another reason to use products such as Loctite or grease during the fit up. BTW, I have three tension wrenches and use them all the time. I always find it interesting that many a calibrated wrist will put another half to three-quarter turn into a properly tensioned wheel nut. Sumps and tappet covers love tension wrenches for even fit up and no leaks.
Iza
-- Edited by Izabarack on Tuesday 30th of August 2016 06:37:24 PM
autoexpert.com.au/owning-a-car/2010/11/5/how-to-tighten-wheel-nuts-its-not-as-simple-as-you-think.html
It also mentions in the article about lubricating.
Cheers
Vince
An excellent article Vince,
and I rest my case
woody