Like any technology, if you wait for "the best" before buying you will never get away from the horse & cart.
PeterD said
08:42 AM Dec 9, 2016
By the looks of things they are not very portable. Lithium will be the choice for mobile applications for a long time.
macka17 said
11:22 AM Dec 9, 2016
Unless you have them in sealed area.
The old WET cells are as good if not better (value wise. Than most others.
My boat and caravan batts, wet. normally give me 5 1\2 to 7 yrs each on solar.
and the large. 2V Storage units usually give 12 plus..
All these modern fancy chemical ones are to get people to pay more for the same.
Just add an extra battery or so to what you have and it's equivalent, or near enuff.
I bought a coupla 80w AGM recently. but only cause they were a very good price.
and I was interested to see how good Giant are.
Battery's in front boot. They not really necessary,
If price comes down, These Vanadium could be interesting.
ants_oz said
11:56 AM Dec 9, 2016
To be fair, saying lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries are not widely accepted is like saying motor vehicles are not a commonly used form of transport. Li-ion batteries are probably the MOST common battery installed in portable electronic devices for quite a number of years now.
Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries are a different technology entirely, and they are the type that some people are using in such things as RV's.
-- Edited by ants_oz on Friday 9th of December 2016 11:58:10 AM
Delta18 said
12:29 PM Dec 9, 2016
ants_oz wrote:
To be fair, saying lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries are not widely accepted is like saying motor vehicles are not a commonly used form of transport. Li-ion batteries are probably the MOST common battery installed in portable electronic devices for quite a number of years now.
-- Edited by ants_oz on Friday 9th of December 2016 11:58:10 AM
....and also to be fair those 'portable electronic devices' you allude to are generally not Solar Power Storage devices as the OP's topic was about.
T1 Terry said
02:59 PM Dec 10, 2016
:lol: redox flow batteries, a technology rehashed every 5 yrs or so since it was first conceived back in 1985. It wasn't a match for lead acid back then so it's certainly no match for LiFeP04 technology. They are very heavy, very large, the comparison to an outside aircon unit is extremely misleading, it would be a huge house that had a unit that size. They can not be moved while in operation, the electrolyte foams easily and the air bubble wreck both the electrolyte and the ion exchange membrane. They are less than 80% efficient, they may be able to store 80% of the solar but they have to be 100% discharged every 4 days I think they said to stop the metal plating on the ion exchange membrane. That means you need 2 units so one can discharge into the other, and you can only get 80% in the transfer from one to the other, so 80% of the 80% you managed to store..... The 20% losses are related to the pumps that move the electrolyte around, then all the electronics to get it to work without the need for the operator to have a uni degree to drive the thing.
No doubt there will be a future storage method that will be superior to lithium, but this one isn't it
T1 Terry
Tony Bev said
03:32 PM Dec 10, 2016
Thanks for the info T1 Terry, it saves me looking for it, on the Internet
I did pick up on the fact that it first came to light, in 1985 at the University of New South Wales, and wondered why it was not yet mainstream
On the other hand, the Lady is a science teacher, so it may well prove to be very suitable for her type of home I will assume that on a rural property, the size of a solar storage battery, (whatever type), is immaterial Perhaps the heavier it is, the less chance of it being stolen
I suppose that the test of time, will eventually tell a story
Bagmaker said
08:47 PM Dec 11, 2016
If you do the math, Macka, LiFePo4 batteries are cheaper than good quality AGMs -providing you use them!
Perfect for high current draw, rapid charging, everyday use and where size or weight is an issue.
Many folks just pop between CPs with the occasional overnighter unplugged, LiFePo4 batts aren't for that but if you are full time "with all the home comforts on the road" then they are actually cheaper.
Hewy54 said
09:20 PM Dec 11, 2016
Bagmaker wrote:
If you do the math, Macka, LiFePo4 batteries are cheaper than good quality AGMs -providing you use them!
Perfect for high current draw, rapid charging, everyday use and where size or weight is an issue.
Many folks just pop between CPs with the occasional overnighter unplugged, LiFePo4 batts aren't for that but if you are full time "with all the home comforts on the road" then they are actually cheaper.
I agree.
A quick check on ebay and I find that a 100a lithium is about $1000 and the same in AGM is $250. The lithium gives 80AH usable, so to get the same in AGM you will need 300AH.
So to get the same usable amps costs $1000 for lithium and $750 for AGM. weight for lithium is 14kg and for AGM is 87kg. Lithiums are supposed to have a longer life but that is where we enter the untried for many. I hear stories about wet cell batteries lasting for many years but I only ever get a max of 3/4 out of mine. As soon as my AGM's reach their use by date I will be changing to lithiums.
Jaahn said
08:01 AM Dec 12, 2016
Hewy54 wrote:
Bagmaker wrote:
If you do the math, Macka, LiFePo4 batteries are cheaper than good quality AGMs -providing you use them!
Perfect for high current draw, rapid charging, everyday use and where size or weight is an issue.
Many folks just pop between CPs with the occasional overnighter unplugged, LiFePo4 batts aren't for that but if you are full time "with all the home comforts on the road" then they are actually cheaper.
I agree.
A quick check on ebay and I find that a 100a lithium is about $1000 and the same in AGM is $250. The lithium gives 80AH usable, so to get the same in AGM you will need 300AH.
So to get the same usable amps costs $1000 for lithium and $750 for AGM. weight for lithium is 14kg and for AGM is 87kg. Lithiums are supposed to have a longer life but that is where we enter the untried for many. I hear stories about wet cell batteries lasting for many years but I only ever get a max of 3/4 out of mine. As soon as my AGM's reach their use by date I will be changing to lithiums.
Hi
Well when I do the maths I seem to disagree with that comparision given. I would say using those figures given here, the AGM cost is $500 for 100 AHr against lithium for $1000 for 80 Ahr. Heavier yes. Long term cost the same after an AGM replacement in the future. Unknown when that is really and the life of both is a guess.
The problem with lithiums seem to me to the evangelic zeal the people get when they find them and from then on they just restrict their conversation to other zealots. Facts just do not count really
Jaahn
PS I actually have a pair of 40Ahr lithium batteries I use for an application I have. Decided some years ago to see how they go. Been happy with them but they were very expensive and really not worth the cost then or now. The light weight compact size is good though.
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 12th of December 2016 08:09:34 AM
Hewy54 said
08:25 AM Dec 12, 2016
Not an expert, but I just based my figures on current ebay prices and the fact that lithiums can run down to 20%, while I do not like running my AGM's any lower that 70%.
If I have 300AH AGM this gives me 90AH usable at a cost of $250 for each battery = total cost of $750
If I have 100AH AGM this gives me 80AH usable at a cost of $1000.
The reported advantages of lithium are that they charge faster, are lighter and last twice as long.
If this is the case, then lithiums will work out at $1000 for 10 years usage, but the AGM will cost me $1500 after I replace them once in that 10 year period.
I would still have the advantage of a weight saving of 0 kg and the faster charge.
I have the advantage that my current AGM's should last me another year or two so I have time to wait and see how lithiums have performed for others.
As I said before, I am not an expert by any means, so please let me know where my maths is wrong.
T1 Terry said
10:04 AM Dec 12, 2016
LiFeP04 can actually be discharged to 100% of the advertised capacity without damage, they can not be discharged below 2.8v in any cell without damage though, a completely foreign and confusing concept to lead acid battery owners. I try to explain, an Li battery can deliver all of the 100Ah advertised on the label yet still have above 3v in each cell, the cell voltage does not indicate remaining capacity the way lead acid batteries behave. In an absolute pinch Li batteries can be pulled down till a cell reaches 2.5v, below that and some damage may occur, below zero volts and the cell will be quickly destroyed.... I can explain how that can happen is anyone is interested.
The whole 80% and 70% discharge limits for an Li battery are the result of people not fully understanding what they are reading because the Chinese to English translation of the provided charts can be a bit ambiguous.
This chart can be viewed in 2 ways, if you only discharge to 70% DoD or 30% SOC you will get 8,000 cycles, what it really says is after 8,000 cycles a discharge rate of 0.5CA (shown in top right corner, 50 amp load per 100Ah advertised capacity) will only deliver 70% of the advertised capacity before the cell voltage drops below 2.8v. What it also shows is for the first 1,000 cycles there is more than 100% capacity available if the discharge end voltage is reduced to 2.4v. What it doesn't show is that a lighter load will not pull the voltage down this low so the 70% remaining capacity at say 25 amps per 100Ah advertised capacity is a complete unknown.
That will take a while for most to digest so I'll stop there for now, we are now on the 6th yr for a number of Li battery packs all being used 24/7, so actual useage life not ownership yrs.
Not an expert, but I just based my figures on current ebay prices and the fact that lithiums can run down to 20%, while I do not like running my AGM's any lower that 70%. If I have 300AH AGM this gives me 90AH usable at a cost of $250 for each battery = total cost of $750 If I have 100AH AGM this gives me 80AH usable at a cost of $1000. The reported advantages of lithium are that they charge faster, are lighter and last twice as long. If this is the case, then lithiums will work out at $1000 for 10 years usage, but the AGM will cost me $1500 after I replace them once in that 10 year period. I would still have the advantage of a weight saving of 0 kg and the faster charge. I have the advantage that my current AGM's should last me another year or two so I have time to wait and see how lithiums have performed for others. As I said before, I am not an expert by any means, so please let me know where my maths is wrong.
Hi Hewy54
I am just trying to provide an even handed comment. No axe to grind and not really looking for a fight either.
You said here "--I just based my figures on current ebay prices and the fact that lithiums can run down to 20%, while I do not like running my AGM's any lower that 70%."
Why only run AGMs to 70%. The commonly accepted figure is 50%. That is what I based my figures on. You should get many years more out of them doing what you say. If you are not utilising the accepted capacity for AG but accept the lithium limit as commonly stated, then it is not a fair comparison IMHO.
Jaahn
Santa said
10:32 AM Dec 12, 2016
Thought this thread would take off.
For some reason batteries and the use of is a subject that seems to get people excited
FWIW I'm using 2 x Century 75 AH deep cycle AGM's, at 7 years old they are starting to slow down a little, will soon need replacing, and, I will replace em with another set of Century AGM, been quoted $460 for the two, fitted and old batteries disposed of.
Bagmaker said
01:14 PM Dec 12, 2016
its a fine eggsample Santa. A similar output for your 2 x 75Ah AGM would be a 90Ah LiFePo4 battery. The Li batt would cost a little north of $700 (Ebay is not much chop on quality Li batts yet- google Winston or Calb here in OZ) So you are looking at $460 for -at best- 5 years and $700 for ???? -(over 8000 cycles!!!) plus they fill up quicker, are lighter and smaller, your inverter will not shut down at half time due to low voltages and you have much higher campsite bragging rights. Other battery compositions WILL come through eventually, sodium, vanandium, unobtainium - so its a case of being sure your system can cope with whatever comes along next. This is quite a challenge, undersized wiring is standard for common vans, 3 way fridges are still being flogged, elcheapo chargers seem to be the norm. Most of the gizmo's slowly come down in price but the investment to be made is still copper. Don't scrimp on the wiring
All these new fangled batteries need to be charged, lets look forward to RV insulated building materials that double as solar panels!
Hewy54 said
01:42 PM Dec 12, 2016
"The commonly accepted figure is 50%."
Thats where the problem lies for those of trying to do any research.
Google can be your friend or enemy.
I thought the commonly accepted figures were 70% to maintain longivity of your batteries or 50% but it may reduce the life.
I have used the 70% and so far got 4 years out of my KK before I sold it and all was well, and so far have over 4 years out of my Vista and all seems well.
Santa said
01:44 PM Dec 12, 2016
I asked about Unobtainium, the guy said they had sold out and had no idea when new stock would be available.
Jaahn said
03:25 PM Dec 12, 2016
Hi
Santa got 7 years out of his and that is about what I would expect too if I was carefull. So that puts a new figure into the cost equation !!
Also having two or three AGMs to make a generous Ahr capacity means they all share the charging and discharge current so that reduces the rise and fall of the voltage and performance is good. 50% as a maximum discharge is my yard stick but I go down less normally.
Searching the web for information is like going into a library but the information(books) do not have a fly leaf with the Author and his background written there. Would I trust a book like that???? Not bloody likely ! So I only read things by people I can verify. Colyn Rivers is one, manufacturers specs too ! When I want good facts I do not believe everything I read here or other places on the net or in popular magazines either. Just hard to please I guess.
The down side is I loose this too "and you have much higher campsite bragging rights" Bugger I always thought this was a reason for the interest in lithium. Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 12th of December 2016 07:32:55 PM
Tony Bev said
03:40 PM Dec 12, 2016
Santa wrote:
I asked about Unobtainium, the guy said they had sold out and had no idea when new stock would be available.
Tongue in cheek
The guy was having a go at you
When/if the Unobtainium battery is available, it will most likely only be sold from Kentucky, USA. Near the corner of Gold Vault Rd. and Bullion Boulevard Fort Knox. That is about the only place, that could accept your coin if you are paying cash I doubt if Supercheap would be selling them
How much is unobtainium worth? According to the below (unconfirmed) report
It is a room-temperature superconductor for energy, which makes it very valuable; it is worth $20 million per kilogram (2.2 lbs) unrefined (worth $40 million per kilogram refined) on Earth. However, as the Pandoran atmosphere is toxic to humans it is expensive to mine.
Looks like lithium-ion batteries may be obsolete even before they have been widely accepted, cant keep up.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-08/vanadium-battery-solar-energy-storage/8094376
Like any technology, if you wait for "the best" before buying you will never get away from the horse & cart.
The old WET cells are as good if not better (value wise. Than most others.
My boat and caravan batts, wet. normally give me 5 1\2 to 7 yrs each on solar.
and the large. 2V Storage units usually give 12 plus..
All these modern fancy chemical ones are to get people to pay more for the same.
Just add an extra battery or so to what you have and it's equivalent, or near enuff.
I bought a coupla 80w AGM recently. but only cause they were a very good price.
and I was interested to see how good Giant are.
Battery's in front boot. They not really necessary,
If price comes down, These Vanadium could be interesting.
To be fair, saying lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries are not widely accepted is like saying motor vehicles are not a commonly used form of transport. Li-ion batteries are probably the MOST common battery installed in portable electronic devices for quite a number of years now.
Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries are a different technology entirely, and they are the type that some people are using in such things as RV's.
-- Edited by ants_oz on Friday 9th of December 2016 11:58:10 AM
....and also to be fair those 'portable electronic devices' you allude to are generally not Solar Power Storage devices as the OP's topic was about.
No doubt there will be a future storage method that will be superior to lithium, but this one isn't it
T1 Terry
Thanks for the info T1 Terry, it saves me looking for it, on the Internet
I did pick up on the fact that it first came to light, in 1985 at the University of New South Wales, and wondered why it was not yet mainstream
On the other hand, the Lady is a science teacher, so it may well prove to be very suitable for her type of home
I will assume that on a rural property, the size of a solar storage battery, (whatever type), is immaterial
Perhaps the heavier it is, the less chance of it being stolen
I suppose that the test of time, will eventually tell a story
If you do the math, Macka, LiFePo4 batteries are cheaper than good quality AGMs -providing you use them!
Perfect for high current draw, rapid charging, everyday use and where size or weight is an issue.
Many folks just pop between CPs with the occasional overnighter unplugged, LiFePo4 batts aren't for that but if you are full time "with all the home comforts on the road" then they are actually cheaper.
I agree.
A quick check on ebay and I find that a 100a lithium is about $1000 and the same in AGM is $250. The lithium gives 80AH usable, so to get the same in AGM you will need 300AH.
So to get the same usable amps costs $1000 for lithium and $750 for AGM. weight for lithium is 14kg and for AGM is 87kg. Lithiums are supposed to have a longer life but that is where we enter the untried for many. I hear stories about wet cell batteries lasting for many years but I only ever get a max of 3/4 out of mine. As soon as my AGM's reach their use by date I will be changing to lithiums.
Hi
Well when I do the maths I seem to disagree with that comparision given. I would say using those figures given here, the AGM cost is $500 for 100 AHr against lithium for $1000 for 80 Ahr. Heavier yes. Long term cost the same after an AGM replacement in the future.
Unknown when that is really and the life of both is a guess.
The problem with lithiums seem to me to the evangelic zeal the people get when they find them and from then on they just restrict their conversation to other zealots. Facts just do not count really
Jaahn
PS I actually have a pair of 40Ahr lithium batteries I use for an application I have. Decided some years ago to see how they go. Been happy with them but they were very expensive and really not worth the cost then or now.
The light weight compact size is good though.
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 12th of December 2016 08:09:34 AM
If I have 300AH AGM this gives me 90AH usable at a cost of $250 for each battery = total cost of $750
If I have 100AH AGM this gives me 80AH usable at a cost of $1000.
The reported advantages of lithium are that they charge faster, are lighter and last twice as long.
If this is the case, then lithiums will work out at $1000 for 10 years usage, but the AGM will cost me $1500 after I replace them once in that 10 year period.
I would still have the advantage of a weight saving of 0 kg and the faster charge.
I have the advantage that my current AGM's should last me another year or two so I have time to wait and see how lithiums have performed for others.
As I said before, I am not an expert by any means, so please let me know where my maths is wrong.
LiFeP04 can actually be discharged to 100% of the advertised capacity without damage, they can not be discharged below 2.8v in any cell without damage though, a completely foreign and confusing concept to lead acid battery owners. I try to explain, an Li battery can deliver all of the 100Ah advertised on the label yet still have above 3v in each cell, the cell voltage does not indicate remaining capacity the way lead acid batteries behave. In an absolute pinch Li batteries can be pulled down till a cell reaches 2.5v, below that and some damage may occur, below zero volts and the cell will be quickly destroyed.... I can explain how that can happen is anyone is interested.
The whole 80% and 70% discharge limits for an Li battery are the result of people not fully understanding what they are reading because the Chinese to English translation of the provided charts can be a bit ambiguous.
This chart can be viewed in 2 ways, if you only discharge to 70% DoD or 30% SOC you will get 8,000 cycles, what it really says is after 8,000 cycles a discharge rate of 0.5CA (shown in top right corner, 50 amp load per 100Ah advertised capacity) will only deliver 70% of the advertised capacity before the cell voltage drops below 2.8v. What it also shows is for the first 1,000 cycles there is more than 100% capacity available if the discharge end voltage is reduced to 2.4v. What it doesn't show is that a lighter load will not pull the voltage down this low so the 70% remaining capacity at say 25 amps per 100Ah advertised capacity is a complete unknown.
That will take a while for most to digest so I'll stop there for now, we are now on the 6th yr for a number of Li battery packs all being used 24/7, so actual useage life not ownership yrs.
T1 Terry
Hi Hewy54
I am just trying to provide an even handed comment. No axe to grind and not really looking for a fight either.
You said here "--I just based my figures on current ebay prices and the fact that lithiums can run down to 20%, while I do not like running my AGM's any lower that 70%."
Why only run AGMs to 70%. The commonly accepted figure is 50%. That is what I based my figures on. You should get many years more out of them doing what you say. If you are not utilising the accepted capacity for AG but accept the lithium limit as commonly stated, then it is not a fair comparison IMHO.
Jaahn
Thought this thread would take off.
For some reason batteries and the use of is a subject that seems to get people excited
FWIW I'm using 2 x Century 75 AH deep cycle AGM's, at 7 years old they are starting to slow down a little, will soon need replacing, and, I will replace em with another set of Century AGM, been quoted $460 for the two, fitted and old batteries disposed of.
its a fine eggsample Santa.
A similar output for your 2 x 75Ah AGM would be a 90Ah LiFePo4 battery. The Li batt would cost a little north of $700 (Ebay is not much chop on quality Li batts yet- google Winston or Calb here in OZ)
So you are looking at $460 for -at best- 5 years and $700 for ???? -(over 8000 cycles!!!) plus they fill up quicker, are lighter and smaller, your inverter will not shut down at half time due to low voltages and you have much higher campsite bragging rights.
Other battery compositions WILL come through eventually, sodium, vanandium, unobtainium - so its a case of being sure your system can cope with whatever comes along next. This is quite a challenge, undersized wiring is standard for common vans, 3 way fridges are still being flogged, elcheapo chargers seem to be the norm. Most of the gizmo's slowly come down in price but the investment to be made is still copper.
Don't scrimp on the wiring
All these new fangled batteries need to be charged, lets look forward to RV insulated building materials that double as solar panels!
Thats where the problem lies for those of trying to do any research.
Google can be your friend or enemy.
I thought the commonly accepted figures were 70% to maintain longivity of your batteries or 50% but it may reduce the life.
I have used the 70% and so far got 4 years out of my KK before I sold it and all was well, and so far have over 4 years out of my Vista and all seems well.
I asked about Unobtainium, the guy said they had sold out and had no idea when new stock would be available.
Hi
Santa got 7 years out of his and that is about what I would expect too if I was carefull. So that puts a new figure into the cost equation !!
Also having two or three AGMs to make a generous Ahr capacity means they all share the charging and discharge current so that reduces the rise and fall of the voltage and performance is good.
50% as a maximum discharge is my yard stick but I go down less normally.
Searching the web for information is like going into a library but the information(books) do not have a fly leaf with the Author and his background written there. Would I trust a book like that???? Not bloody likely ! So I only read things by people I can verify. Colyn Rivers is one, manufacturers specs too ! When I want good facts I do not believe everything I read here or other places on the net or in popular magazines either.
Just hard to please I guess.
The down side is I loose this too "and you have much higher campsite bragging rights" Bugger
I always thought this was a reason for the interest in lithium. Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 12th of December 2016 07:32:55 PM
Tongue in cheek
The guy was having a go at you
When/if the Unobtainium battery is available, it will most likely only be sold from Kentucky, USA. Near the corner of Gold Vault Rd. and Bullion Boulevard Fort Knox.
That is about the only place, that could accept your coin if you are paying cash
I doubt if Supercheap would be selling them
How much is unobtainium worth?
According to the below (unconfirmed) report
So do not believe every salesman you see