was looking at an 240 volt bar fridge today what is using 224 kw / a year
How many amp's a/hr would that use by running inverter to power it ( got 240 ah batteries )
What would be the right size of inverter to use ?
Cheers John
Mike Harding said
08:01 AM Feb 16, 2017
I know it appears to be a much cheaper option than a 12V fridge but it'll be more trouble in the long run.
A bar fridge will use about 150W when it's running but it will need about 600W, maybe more, in order to start it's compressor each time it cycles so you will need an inverter of about 300W continuous minimum and which has a sustained surge rating of at least 600W preferably 1000W. As has been discussed recently on other threads you will also need to install wiring capable of handling this energy without producing significant voltage drops.
Another issue is that bar fridges are not designed to be bumped around in a caravan throughout their life and there is a high possibility it will fail well before its expected life end when sitting quietly, minding its own business, under a bar.
Additionally, you are going to need to replace the energy it uses each day from your batteries.
The bar fridge consumes about 150W and if we assume it operates on a 33% duty cycle (that's probably a low estimate) then you'll need 8 (hours) x 150W = 1200Wh each day or 150W of solar panels operating at full output for 8 hours - *every* day. I hope you don't live in Victoria.
Bagmaker said
09:42 AM Feb 16, 2017
if there is room for a real fridge (not a bar fridge) then you are on the right track, much better than 3 way or camping style.
But you need the space to fit it...........
macka17 said
10:52 AM Feb 16, 2017
If you want a fridge that will work in ALL areas of Australia efficiently,
and freeze too.
Forget Ac unless living in Van Parks or mate's back yard.
Spend the money and buy a 12\24\240 Compressor fridge.
They ARE the only thing that will refrigerate\freeze, everywhere efficiently with your solar system.
I had 320w Panels and 2 x 110AGM Battery's. (plus genny)
NEVER ran out of power.
I have a 110ltr Waeco built in, in van. ($1100) with 80 ltr mobile unit in rear of car as freezer.
That's over 14 yrs old.
We travelled for 3 + months every yr for yrs. Mainly up North. Always had Ice cream. frozen fish and steaks.
even in the Simpson North of Blinman in summer..
Lots of dreamers trying to economise have tried it.
You want a fridge that'll work and keep working while mobile?.
Take note of the voices of experience and forget that.
Over the yrs. everybody has tried everything.
What is currently used.
IS what's been proven to work, at sea and in this situation.
Cruising Cruze said
10:52 AM Feb 16, 2017
Thanks Mike & Wayne
Indeed the 3way refused to go colder than 10C
and like you told me Mike you need the space to fit one in
It won't go in the place of old one I need 82 cm the old CM2301 is 77 cm
was thinking to put in the back of the ute
Cheers John
DeBe said
01:10 PM Feb 16, 2017
I had a bar fridge I fited in my van to replace a old 3way. It worked fine but you would need a 600W inverter to drive it. It used too mutch power was pulling 12A on the battery when running. When I could afford it I fitted an 80L Waeco upright & is far better power consumption wise & performance.
Bagmaker said
05:06 PM Feb 16, 2017
Macka was right and excellent advice from the last century. If only it still was 1990
Now we have inverter fridges that will run at a smidgeon of power compared to a camping fridge costing plenty more than it.
Spend your money on panels and batteries after dislodging mr H Norman of a suitable Samsung inverter model.
Enough room and one with an ice dispenser would be a bonus
warhorse said
06:27 PM Feb 16, 2017
try appliances online,cheaper than harvy norman,samsung is the only way to go if you can fit one in
Cruising Cruze said
08:41 PM Feb 16, 2017
thanks for the reply's guys
Still it wont give me how to calculate what on 240 volt 225 ah/year is in 12volts ah / day
montie said
09:23 PM Feb 16, 2017
macka17 wrote:
If you want a fridge that will work in ALL areas of Australia efficiently, and freeze too. Forget Ac unless living in Van Parks or mate's back yard.
Spend the money and buy a 12\24\240 Compressor fridge.
They ARE the only thing that will refrigerate\freeze, everywhere efficiently with your solar system. I had 320w Panels and 2 x 110AGM Battery's. (plus genny) NEVER ran out of power.
I have a 110ltr Waeco built in, in van. ($1100) with 80 ltr mobile unit in rear of car as freezer. That's over 14 yrs old.
We travelled for 3 + months every yr for yrs. Mainly up North. Always had Ice cream. frozen fish and steaks. even in the Simpson North of Blinman in summer..
Lots of dreamers trying to economise have tried it. You want a fridge that'll work and keep working while mobile?.
Take note of the voices of experience and forget that.
Over the yrs. everybody has tried everything. What is currently used. IS what's been proven to work, at sea and in this situation.
I agree with Macka on this one.
Your average garden variety three way fridge is ok to keep the milk, vegies and white wine cool.
You want a fair dinkum fridge that keeps your beer at the temp it should be (0/2 deg) then you need a compressor fridge....my choice Engel...sorry Macka!
Monty
Mike Harding said
09:10 AM Feb 17, 2017
Cruising Cruze wrote:
thanks for the reply's guys Still it wont give me how to calculate what on 240 volt 225 ah/year is in 12volts ah / day
224kW hours is the energy consumed by the fridge per year.
224 / 365 = 0.614kW hours per day or 614W hours per day.
An inverter is not 100% efficient and wastes power doing the conversion from 12V to 240V. An efficiency figure of 80% is a reasonable guess so that 614Wh increases to 737Wh per day.
Your solar system or generator is charging your battery at a voltage of around 14V0 so:
737 / 14 = 53Ah per day
To replace 737Wh per day you will need (say) 150W of solar panels and we'll assume a MPPT controller and ignore its losses.
You'll do very well to regularly see more than 90% output from the panels so that 150W panel is really a 135W panel and that assumes excellent sunlight - Qld not Vic.
You will need full output (135W) from the panels for:
737 / 135 = 5.5 hours
Additionally; I imagine you have other items such as lighting and a computer etc on 12V so they will need to be provided for too and I've ignored cable and MPPT losses so, in reality, you'll probably need another 15Ah or so on top of the fridge's 53Ah.
Unless you have a generator *and* a high current charger two cloudy days are going to see your 240Ah batteries close to flat.
And, just to make things worse, the annual consumption figure of 224kWh assumes a domestic environment with an ambient temperature of (guessing) 20C.
If you are seeing 5+ hours of sunlight good enough to produce maximum energy from your solar panels then your (and your fridge's) ambient temperature is going to be more like 30C to 35C which will markedly increase the fridge's power consumption.
MH
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Friday 17th of February 2017 09:12:26 AM
Ozlad said
09:40 AM Feb 17, 2017
John
Re your initial request just remember the formula.....watts/volts=amps.....then these things are easy to work out. To simplify what Mike above has said:
224 kWh x by 1000 gives you watts per year = 224000 now divide that by 365 and that gives you 614 watts per day now divide that by 12volts (nominal) and that gives you 51 ah day .
Cruising Cruze said
10:44 AM Feb 17, 2017
Thanks Mike & Ozlad
That is what I was after,just how calculate it
Got 400 watt of solar so that is not a problem
So the fridge only needs less than 3 ah plus what the inverter is using
That is nearly the same as our Evakool is using
Both of them on 240ah batteries would use around 60ah overnight
Thanks again Regards John
Ozlad said
01:55 PM Feb 17, 2017
John
One thing you should keep in mind is that many domestic fridges require a significant air gap at the sides of the unit to dispel hot air. I was at one stage looking at the Aldi bar fridge to replace my old 3 way but it required some thing like a 100mm gap at each side.
So suggest you find the manual and check before you buy.
Cheers
Cruising Cruze said
09:55 PM Feb 17, 2017
@ Ozlad
Thanks for that info Ozlad
I think we solved our problem for the time been, instead of running the Evakool we have in fridge/freezer mode we going to use it just as a fridge
ours is a double lid 73 ltr model and going to run it both sections as a fridge
we always had frozen meat and deserts/Ice cream in the small section but we are going to be close to town so no freezer needed
Going to catch up with some friends in NSW next week and I was scared when the caravan fridge was not working proper
With all the high temperature we have lately I had my fridge in the caravan running now for 5 days and no luck at all getting the mongrel colder than 10 C
but all good now forget the caravan fridge and just run the Evakool
leaving Monday for a few weeks
thank you guys for the advice what was given, next caravan no more 3 way fridge just 12 and 240 volt
Cheers John
oldtrack123 said
09:11 PM Feb 18, 2017
Ozlad wrote:
John Re your initial request just remember the formula.....watts/volts=amps.....then these things are easy to work out. To simplify what Mike above has said:
224 kWh x by 1000 gives you watts per year = 224000 now divide that by 365 and that gives you 614 watts per day now divide that by 12volts (nominal) and that gives you 51 ah day .
You cannot divide by 12V nominal, you must divide by around 17V
You cannot work on your panel Wattage as that is @ around 17V, so best to work on their rated amps
Then assume at the best 6 hrs of that per day
then allow for efficiency loses around 20%
Then how many days you wish to have backup
&
macka17 said
12:23 PM Feb 19, 2017
Monty.
Name is irrelevant. as long as it works.
It's all just a stir. like Holden Ford etc.
FORD. Nissan and WAECO... ARE the best OK..
chuckle.
These people using House fridges, Inverter or not.
I can't see them working for too long in mobile environments.
Specially our smooth roads. And Corrugations, dirt??.
We tried them in trawlers (with household Aircond's yrs ago.)
Some last some don't, but none for long.
You want to buy and forget for decades. Freezing down to whatever you want,
ANYWHERE in Aust..
ONCE...
Buy a Compressor unit.
Air susp (bus. M\Home) the only one that may last them for longer.
OR little\large vans that don't go off smooth roads. travel long distances. stay in parks.
again. MAybe.
But I'd rather have peace of mind.
My Waeco 80 dual. over 16 yrs. dragged round all over. Incl Yacht. Usually used for freezer.
Never missed a beat. cost me ONE noisy external fan so far 5 or 6 yrs ago.
Plus sits in Garage (now) with cold drinks when not mobile.
I KNOW it'll be ready next time I want it.
and still freeze my icecream North of Blinman in Simpson.
Peace of mind and reliability. worth more than words I reckon.
G'day all, I need some help please
was looking at an 240 volt bar fridge today what is using 224 kw / a year
How many amp's a/hr would that use by running inverter to power it ( got 240 ah batteries )
What would be the right size of inverter to use ?
Cheers John
I know it appears to be a much cheaper option than a 12V fridge but it'll be more trouble in the long run.
A bar fridge will use about 150W when it's running but it will need about 600W, maybe more, in order to start it's compressor each time it cycles so you will need an inverter of about 300W continuous minimum and which has a sustained surge rating of at least 600W preferably 1000W. As has been discussed recently on other threads you will also need to install wiring capable of handling this energy without producing significant voltage drops.
Another issue is that bar fridges are not designed to be bumped around in a caravan throughout their life and there is a high possibility it will fail well before its expected life end when sitting quietly, minding its own business, under a bar.
Additionally, you are going to need to replace the energy it uses each day from your batteries.
The bar fridge consumes about 150W and if we assume it operates on a 33% duty cycle (that's probably a low estimate) then you'll need 8 (hours) x 150W = 1200Wh each day or 150W of solar panels operating at full output for 8 hours - *every* day. I hope you don't live in Victoria.
But you need the space to fit it...........
and freeze too.
Forget Ac unless living in Van Parks or mate's back yard.
Spend the money and buy a 12\24\240 Compressor fridge.
They ARE the only thing that will refrigerate\freeze, everywhere efficiently with your solar system.
I had 320w Panels and 2 x 110AGM Battery's. (plus genny)
NEVER ran out of power.
I have a 110ltr Waeco built in, in van. ($1100) with 80 ltr mobile unit in rear of car as freezer.
That's over 14 yrs old.
We travelled for 3 + months every yr for yrs. Mainly up North. Always had Ice cream. frozen fish and steaks.
even in the Simpson North of Blinman in summer..
Lots of dreamers trying to economise have tried it.
You want a fridge that'll work and keep working while mobile?.
Take note of the voices of experience and forget that.
Over the yrs. everybody has tried everything.
What is currently used.
IS what's been proven to work, at sea and in this situation.
Indeed the 3way refused to go colder than 10C
and like you told me Mike you need the space to fit one in
It won't go in the place of old one I need 82 cm the old CM2301 is 77 cm
was thinking to put in the back of the ute
Cheers John
I had a bar fridge I fited in my van to replace a old 3way. It worked fine but you would need a 600W inverter to drive it. It used too mutch power was pulling 12A on the battery when running. When I could afford it I fitted an 80L Waeco upright & is far better power consumption wise & performance.
Now we have inverter fridges that will run at a smidgeon of power compared to a camping fridge costing plenty more than it.
Spend your money on panels and batteries after dislodging mr H Norman of a suitable Samsung inverter model.
Enough room and one with an ice dispenser would be a bonus
Still it wont give me how to calculate what on 240 volt 225 ah/year is in 12volts ah / day
I agree with Macka on this one.
Your average garden variety three way fridge is ok to keep the milk, vegies and white wine cool.
You want a fair dinkum fridge that keeps your beer at the temp it should be (0/2 deg) then you need a compressor fridge....my choice Engel...sorry Macka!
Monty
224kW hours is the energy consumed by the fridge per year.
224 / 365 = 0.614kW hours per day or 614W hours per day.
An inverter is not 100% efficient and wastes power doing the
conversion from 12V to 240V. An efficiency figure of 80% is a
reasonable guess so that 614Wh increases to 737Wh per day.
Your solar system or generator is charging your battery at a voltage
of around 14V0 so:
737 / 14 = 53Ah per day
To replace 737Wh per day you will need (say) 150W of solar panels and
we'll assume a MPPT controller and ignore its losses.
You'll do very well to regularly see more than 90% output from the
panels so that 150W panel is really a 135W panel and that assumes
excellent sunlight - Qld not Vic.
You will need full output (135W) from the panels for:
737 / 135 = 5.5 hours
Additionally; I imagine you have other items such as lighting and a
computer etc on 12V so they will need to be provided for too and I've
ignored cable and MPPT losses so, in reality, you'll probably need
another 15Ah or so on top of the fridge's 53Ah.
Unless you have a generator *and* a high current charger two cloudy
days are going to see your 240Ah batteries close to flat.
And, just to make things worse, the annual consumption figure of
224kWh assumes a domestic environment with an ambient temperature of
(guessing) 20C.
If you are seeing 5+ hours of sunlight good enough to produce maximum
energy from your solar panels then your (and your fridge's) ambient
temperature is going to be more like 30C to 35C which will markedly
increase the fridge's power consumption.
MH
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Friday 17th of February 2017 09:12:26 AM
Re your initial request just remember the formula.....watts/volts=amps.....then these things are easy to work out. To simplify what Mike above has said:
224 kWh x by 1000 gives you watts per year = 224000 now divide that by 365 and that gives you 614 watts per day now divide that by 12volts (nominal) and that gives you 51 ah day .
That is what I was after,just how calculate it
Got 400 watt of solar so that is not a problem
So the fridge only needs less than 3 ah plus what the inverter is using
That is nearly the same as our Evakool is using
Both of them on 240ah batteries would use around 60ah overnight
Thanks again Regards John
One thing you should keep in mind is that many domestic fridges require a significant air gap at the sides of the unit to dispel hot air. I was at one stage looking at the Aldi bar fridge to replace my old 3 way but it required some thing like a 100mm gap at each side.
So suggest you find the manual and check before you buy.
Cheers
Thanks for that info Ozlad
I think we solved our problem for the time been, instead of running the Evakool we have in fridge/freezer mode we going to use it just as a fridge
ours is a double lid 73 ltr model and going to run it both sections as a fridge
we always had frozen meat and deserts/Ice cream in the small section but we are going to be close to town so no freezer needed
Going to catch up with some friends in NSW next week and I was scared when the caravan fridge was not working proper
With all the high temperature we have lately I had my fridge in the caravan running now for 5 days and no luck at all getting the mongrel colder than 10 C
but all good now forget the caravan fridge and just run the Evakool
leaving Monday for a few weeks
thank you guys for the advice what was given, next caravan no more 3 way fridge just 12 and 240 volt
Cheers John
You cannot divide by 12V nominal, you must divide by around 17V
You cannot work on your panel Wattage as that is @ around 17V, so best to work on their rated amps
Then assume at the best 6 hrs of that per day
then allow for efficiency loses around 20%
Then how many days you wish to have backup
&
Name is irrelevant. as long as it works.
It's all just a stir. like Holden Ford etc.
FORD. Nissan and WAECO... ARE the best OK..
chuckle.
These people using House fridges, Inverter or not.
I can't see them working for too long in mobile environments.
Specially our smooth roads. And Corrugations, dirt??.
We tried them in trawlers (with household Aircond's yrs ago.)
Some last some don't, but none for long.
You want to buy and forget for decades. Freezing down to whatever you want,
ANYWHERE in Aust..
ONCE...
Buy a Compressor unit.
Air susp (bus. M\Home) the only one that may last them for longer.
OR little\large vans that don't go off smooth roads. travel long distances. stay in parks.
again. MAybe.
But I'd rather have peace of mind.
My Waeco 80 dual. over 16 yrs. dragged round all over. Incl Yacht. Usually used for freezer.
Never missed a beat. cost me ONE noisy external fan so far 5 or 6 yrs ago.
Plus sits in Garage (now) with cold drinks when not mobile.
I KNOW it'll be ready next time I want it.
and still freeze my icecream North of Blinman in Simpson.
Peace of mind and reliability. worth more than words I reckon.